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Louise Achura
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Posted - 2011.03.22 01:03:00 -
[31]
Stop playing in eft seriously. If heavy missile are so good why are you ôcorrectlyö fitting aml to caracals? If heavy missiles are so good why isnÆt everyone using cerbs not zealots/muinns/vagabonds? IÆm mean stuff 84km cerb gets 180km!!! By god it must be the best ship ever!
To what range are you suggesting their range too anyway? 70? 60? 50? 30? 20? 10? YouÆll have to massively nerf range to make any real difference then introduce really powerful mods to get it back up to 84km. Did you consider what effect those mods would have for all other missile ships?
ThereÆs a hurricane, harb, and drake in the fleet, guess what will get targeted? Is it the drake with its ôoverpoweredö long range weaponry, or the harb and hurricane? ItÆs the others everytime, why? Because of the drakes tank, itÆs a huge time sink to try and kill it even if it is slow and is easy to hit with its huge sig.
To reach 80km (even thatÆs a theoretical range missiles take time to accelerate and target movement can tends to increase the distance the missile has to travel), the missile takes 15 seconds. In eve combat thatÆs an age the target could have been destroyed/warped, or even yourself warped or been destroyed long before your missiles arrived, drakes typically do not engage at long range.
The main exception to this is vs hellcat fleets when they can sit outside scorch range, frankly if your out-manuvered by a drake blob with a hellcat fleet your deserve everything you get.
Finally ill leave you with this: with t2 mods, no implants, no t2 rigs, no faction itÆs possible to get over 840 passive regen. Even neuted it near regens nearly 600. Try engaging one of those and saying missile range is the drakes problem.
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Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
draketrain
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.03.22 14:27:00 -
[32]
 Quote:
Finally ill leave you with this: with t2 mods, no implants, no t2 rigs, no faction itÆs possible to get over 840 passive regen. Even neuted it near regens nearly 600. Try engaging one of those and saying missile range is the drakes problem.
Purger drake 
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Korg Tronix
The Mabinogion
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Posted - 2011.03.22 14:29:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Louise Achura
Finally ill leave you with this: with t2 mods, no implants, no t2 rigs, no faction itÆs possible to get over 840 passive regen. Even neuted it near regens nearly 600. Try engaging one of those and saying missile range is the drakes problem.
That is a waste of a drake and is useless for basically all sorts of pvp except bait
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Goose99
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Posted - 2011.03.22 14:36:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Goose99 on 22/03/2011 14:37:05
Originally by: Korg Tronix
Originally by: Louise Achura
Finally ill leave you with this: with t2 mods, no implants, no t2 rigs, no faction itÆs possible to get over 840 passive regen. Even neuted it near regens nearly 600. Try engaging one of those and saying missile range is the drakes problem.
That is a waste of a drake and is useless for basically all sorts of pvp except bait
That sounds off by a long shot. Even with purgers drake get 235 hp/sec max passive regen, assuming you save 3 mids for hardners. Myrm, on the other hand, gives 350 hp/s regen under the same conditions. Rattlesnake gets 800 hp/s.
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Louise Achura
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Posted - 2011.03.22 17:09:00 -
[35]
You including resists? Maybe i should have said 840 ehp regen, seems a bit pointless to quote figures without resists taken into account or you'd just use extenders.
The 840 "semi-passive" or passive tank to none anal people, is a pve fit which variations of you across in low sec/0.0. Frankly if your not in high sec, all fits are pvp  , yes its a fail fit but is a pain in the arse to take down none the less.
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Spugg Galdon
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Posted - 2011.03.22 17:41:00 -
[36]
Rubbish!
I solo Passive Drakes in my Brutix. It's easy.
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zerthis
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Posted - 2011.03.22 18:24:00 -
[37]
Yes there are other nice ships but lets face it, the drake is easy to get into while offering a large tank along with very good range and alpha.
However the real issue is the nature of fleets these days more than anything. The HAM boost was a major impact along with everyone and their grandmother using Logistics even in small gangs.
The drake has to give up little to still support a solid tank and good dps. Other ships mentioned above are targeted first because they can be killed much faster (you can kill 2-3 with the effort it takes to kill 1 drake).
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Korg Tronix
The Mabinogion
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Posted - 2011.03.22 19:44:00 -
[38]
Originally by: zerthis
Yes there are other nice ships but lets face it, the drake is easy to get into while offering a large tank along with very good range and alpha.
However the real issue is the nature of fleets these days more than anything. The HAM boost was a major impact along with everyone and their grandmother using Logistics even in small gangs.
The drake has to give up little to still support a solid tank and good dps. Other ships mentioned above are targeted first because they can be killed much faster (you can kill 2-3 with the effort it takes to kill 1 drake).
well really people primary others first cause they want to clear the main dps off the field, rather than waste time shooting what is possibly a brick tank with no dps
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Louise Achura
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Posted - 2011.03.22 19:49:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Spugg Galdon
Rubbish!
I solo Passive Drakes in my Brutix. It's easy.
Sounds like a challange to me, what do you say i throw together a passive drake and you bring along your brutix.
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Gillaboo
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Posted - 2011.03.22 20:19:00 -
[40]
Yet another "it takes too much effort to kill a Drake" thread from people who can't think for themselves.
WOW is that way --->, no thought or effort required.
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This space For Rent. |
Louise Achura
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Posted - 2011.03.22 20:50:00 -
[41]
Yet another post made from a a snap judgement. Instead of reading the thread and posting any constructive counter arguement simiply states, nerr your wrong, nerr.
Perhapes eve is bit complex for you? Maybe you'd be better playing something a little less taxing? Farmville perhaps?
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Sinikka Huiputti
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Posted - 2011.03.22 21:33:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Louise Achura
hurrdurr
It's difficult not to troll when people throw "expert opinions" claiming that purger drake is actually a good ship or that ham drake is remarkably good at anything.
It takes some time to figure out what went wrong but I am sure we get there after 20 pages of trolololing.
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Scandal Caulker
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Posted - 2011.03.22 22:13:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Louise Achura
To what range are you suggesting their range too anyway? 70? 60? 50? 30? 20? 10? YouÆll have to massively nerf range to make any real difference then introduce really powerful mods to get it back up to 84km. Did you consider what effect those mods would have for all other missile ships?
HML [MWD/no point 0.0] Drake: 109k EHP 475 DPS with drones out to 80km
Any other 2nd tier BC: Approx 55k EHP approx 300 DPS to 80 km. Unable to fit drone link augmentors without seriously gimping fits.
If we reduce guided missile flight time by approximately 40-50% this is the effect:
HML Drake: Approx 55km range
HML Caracal: Approx 85km range
CML Raven: Approx 170km range
Give missiles a mid slot module that boosts range and explosion velocity that can be scripted to give 30-40% extra missile flight time (scripted T2 module). Drake now has to use 1 or 2 mid slots for high CPU usage modules to project its DPS just like turret ships. This would reduce the EHP to a little under 70k EHP give or take. These stats would bring the Drake into line with other ships in it's class performance wise (it is still a little better). Other ships that use guided missiles aren't really gimped as their bonuses still give them very good range.
Low slot module (less CPU & unscripted) could also be available but would give lower bonuses.
**Stealth boost** Missile boats get a module that lets them hit fast moving targets even easier!
We reduce missile flight time and not velocity because we don't want our missiles taking an age to get to their targets. We also can't increase missile velocity above what we already have because they then start behaving very strange. I am thinking about this not just throwing daft ideas around.
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Cassus Temon
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Posted - 2011.03.23 01:56:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Scandal Caulker
Edited by: Scandal Caulker on 22/03/2011 22:22:20
Originally by: Louise Achura
To what range are you suggesting their range too anyway? 70? 60? 50? 30? 20? 10? YouÆll have to massively nerf range to make any real difference then introduce really powerful mods to get it back up to 84km. Did you consider what effect those mods would have for all other missile ships?
HML [MWD/no point 0.0] Drake: 109k EHP 475 DPS with drones out to 80km
Any other 2nd tier BC: Approx 55k EHP approx 300 DPS to 80 km. Unable to fit drone link augmentors without seriously gimping fits.
If we reduce guided missile flight time by approximately 40-50% this is the effect:
HML Drake: Approx 55km range
HML Caracal: Approx 85km range
CML Raven: Approx 170km range
Give missiles a mid slot module that boosts range and explosion velocity that can be scripted to give 30-40% extra missile flight time (scripted T2 module). Drake now has to use 1 or 2 mid slots for high CPU usage modules to project its DPS just like turret ships. This would reduce the EHP to a little under 70k EHP give or take. These stats would bring the Drake into line with other ships in it's class performance wise (it is still a little better). Other ships that use guided missiles aren't really gimped as their bonuses still give them very good range.
Low slot module (less CPU & unscripted) could also be available but would give lower bonuses.
**Stealth boost** Missile boats get a module that lets them hit fast moving targets even easier!
We reduce missile flight time and not velocity because we don't want our missiles taking an age to get to their targets. We also can't increase missile velocity above what we already have because they then start behaving very strange. I am thinking about this not just throwing daft ideas around.
Oh and if you need names for these new modules:
Mid slot:
Missile Navigation Computer. [Description] Increases flight time by using missile fuel more efficiently without effecting missile velocity. Also increases missile accuracy (Explosion velocity or radius. Whatever, I don't care)
Scripts: [Flight time] Missile Navigation [Explosion Vel/radius] Missile Accuracy.
Low slot:
Missile Control Computer. [Description] Increases flight time by using missile fuel more efficiently without effecting missile velocity. Also increases missile accuracy (Explosion velocity or radius. Whatever, I don't care)
Seriously Scandal, that's some messed up ****, right there. You just un-nerfed the HAM; and renerfed the HML. What's your priority; aside from longer flight times? Now we can out run Heavy Missiles in a Drake.
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Awesome Possum
Original Sin.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
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Posted - 2011.03.23 07:11:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Scandal Caulker
Give missiles a mid slot module that boosts range and explosion velocity that can be scripted to give 30-40% extra missile flight time (scripted T2 module). Drake now has to use 1 or 2 mid slots for high CPU usage modules to project its DPS just like turret ships. This would reduce the EHP to a little under 70k EHP give or take. These stats would bring the Drake into line with other ships in it's class performance wise (it is still a little better). Other ships that use guided missiles aren't really gimped as their bonuses still give them very good range.
Sure, just as soon as we get some sort of missile counter module that doesn't suck ass like defenders. either a new midslot missile counter, or change tracking disruptors to somehow affect missiles as well.
♥
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Scandal Caulker
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Posted - 2011.03.23 08:50:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Scandal Caulker on 23/03/2011 08:53:17
Edited by: Scandal Caulker on 23/03/2011 08:51:10
Originally by: Cassus Temon
Seriously Scandal, that's some messed up ****, right there. You just un-nerfed the HAM; and renerfed the HML. What's your priority; aside from longer flight times? Now we can out run Heavy Missiles in a Drake.
How have I un-nerfed the HAM? If you feel that a module boosting range/explosion vel would OP HAMs then the module could simply only apply boosts to guided missiles.
How can you out run them? Guided missile velocity is still the same only flight time has been reduced. With a mid slot module boosting flight time you still have the same range. Please explain.
@ Possum:
Yes, defenders need to be fixed. Making TD's effect missiles could cause some balance issues to ships like the Pilgrim/Curse but I am not completely against it.
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Cassus Temon
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Posted - 2011.03.23 22:37:00 -
[47]
You guys do know, that Smartbomb's and Defenders both kill missiles, right? Smartbombs are by far, more effective; and can completely neutralize missile DPS, if used right.
I was exaggerating about the Drake outrunning the missiles obviously. The HAM's would get some range back, with your Module; which is a good thing, in my opinion. HAM's are nearly useless, on anything smaller than a Shield tanked Battlecruiser; and get out DPS'd by HML's, when used on any fast moving, and/or low Sig radius vessel. Target Painter's, and Mod's to decrease explosion radius; will change the factor of that, of course. Your Mod., would increase their smaller/faster target DPS a bit; with exception to the loss of Velocity modifer's. This means your missiles will travel at player skill, and implant modified speeds; and I know from experience, that a Merlin with an AB, can outrun HML DPS from a Missile Tengu, traveling in a Straight line.
Let's just accept, that you are either not considering all factor's; or, are intentionally attempting to mislead, to gain support. It's either one, or the other. As it is, I survived over 30 seconds of DPS, from a HML Tengu, (from above); and docked my Merlin on station, with no more than one Invuln., Low Sig., speed, and good shield skills, providing the defense. If that had been a Loki; I'd have been fried.
Missiles mostly suck. HML range is good as is, and without it; Level 4 Missions, and Sleeper sites would be almost undoable in a Tengu. Remove velocity modifiers, and you've got 0 DPS for 5 seconds at 28 km; provided the missile is travelling at 5625 m/s with max. skills. Turrets offer instant DPS, in comparison; and you can lose shields as is, before your missiles hit the target.
I'm not saying there are'nt advantages to your idea; but, you'll lose in other area's. Anything travelling over 3750 m/s; would be immune to DPS from HML's. Additional time required to apply DPS; would mean greater advantages to turret users. You could, effectively, be spacedust; before your first missile, hit the target. Do they still exist; when you vaporize?
It would also make it easier to time Defender and Smartbomb defense; making Defenders more useful, and Smartbomb's omnipotent. Beats trying to track multiple volleys; traveling at +8750 m/s, when getting ready to cycle them.
anyway.. back to the OP.
Maybe the Drake is a little overpowered in Fleet; but alone, it's completely negotiable. In fact, alone, it's an extremely easy target; for anyone with any PvP experience.
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Scandal Caulker
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Posted - 2011.03.23 23:20:00 -
[48]
I'm sorry Cassus but I'm still confused. Maybe it's these new pain killers I'm on cause I am a bit spaced out.
The only thing I am suggesting is that guided missile flight time, the length of time the missile flies for, not the velocity or the explosion radius or the explosion velocity, gets reduced by approximately 40-50%. (55km effective range lvl5 character without imps/ship bonuses). The introduction of a module(s) that acts very similarly to a tracking computer to increase missile flight time and explosion velocity or radius, which ever balances better, which can be scripted to do one or the other.
Unless this module is fitted the ability to hit fast moving targets with a small sig would remain the same and if this module is fitted you are sacrificing a mid slot for it.
A Worm hole HML Tengu would still have >80km range without this new module. Plenty.
It takes 12 seconds for a heavy missile to travel 70km. A HML Drake would (still) have more EHP (>12k) than any other BC in its class fitted to engage at this range with these changes. I believe this offsets the initial volley delay. It also has considerably more DPS and (more than double) volley damage.
I'm making an attempt to balance this ship out with others in it's class without gimping it when fitted for other roles or other ships that use this weapon system.
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Cassus Temon
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Posted - 2011.03.23 23:44:00 -
[49]
You don't do C5's obviously. The targets are out to 160km, give or take; can hit you, at well over that, and the BS all move faster than if they had MWD.
That being said, I'll re-read some of this thread; as I may be a little off, with my response
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Cassus Temon
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Posted - 2011.03.23 23:52:00 -
[50]
Okay, I'm a little off. With all the crap I've been reading; I'm beginning to skim more, than actually read.
There is still a problem. You reduce the Flight time, and force a Mod to increase it. Great. Drakes will just skip the Mod. Most PvP is done near gates, and stations; or at less than 30 km, and/or using MWD anyway. They don't need it. Missile range for HML's is mostly purposeful; for Missions, complexes, and sites anyway. It serves very little purpose in PvP. Save one: Hitting Logi, Recon, and similar craft; that sit out at 70km, give or take. These craft will now be immune to Missile DPS; while still have instant force projection of their own. Why immune? Because no PvP'er will fit the range Mod's.
Why not just make missiles instantaneous time-to-target; and lose the lag generated by their flight time. Sort of like Fighter Bombers. Then we can talk about rebalancing.
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Scandal Caulker
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Posted - 2011.03.24 00:19:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Scandal Caulker on 24/03/2011 00:21:19
Drake Trains in 0.0 engage at ~70km. I think the big whine is that the Drake is so appealing in this role because it vastly outperforms everything else when fitted to engage in this role. So every man and his dog uses it. Which causes big lag (missiles ate my internet hamster) Hence trying to bring it in line. Making other ships more appealing in this role.
I've only ever done up to C4 Worm Holes. Didn't think a Tengu would be able to tank a C5. Especially now with the neuting. Can't you approach the ships out at 160km or are they webbing you too?(Sleepers are gits for that I know!) Maybe have a Raven there to help?
Anyway, does the fact that a Tengu can punch out to that range and tank which none of the other T3's can do not set alarm bells ringing?
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Cassus Temon
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Posted - 2011.03.24 06:00:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Cassus Temon on 24/03/2011 06:00:41
No alarm bells, no; because it only tanks on RR, and resists. The DPS is infernally slow, if effective; and only makes it, because you have the time. 4-5 Tengu's on a C5 Guardian, takes a bit of time; and the RR better be on the ball, or someones losing a ship. We use large Tech II Shield Transporters; but 3-4 on one Tengu; just barely holds the ship up, under full onslaught.
edit for typo
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.03.24 08:28:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Scandal Caulker
..I think the big whine is..
Wrong, the whine is that it performs several levels above all the other BC at all ranges over 30km or so without fitting for it .. it is a bog-standard fit with zero sacrifices.
Try fitting a Harbinger or Hurricane to engage at 50km+ and you'll see what the whine is about .. if it actually did significantly less damage than other weapons beyond medium range then the 'problem' could be tanked/ignored but it out-dps' both beams and artillery.
Originally by: Cassus Temon
...
The only logistics I have ever seen not clustered with its charges is Scimitars zooming around the edges .. being of minnie design it is rather near-sighted so a single damp removes it quite handily.
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Scandal Caulker
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Posted - 2011.03.24 09:42:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Scandal Caulker
..I think the big whine is..
Wrong, the whine is that it performs several levels above all the other BC at all ranges over 30km or so without fitting for it .. it is a bog-standard fit with zero sacrifices.
Try fitting a Harbinger or Hurricane to engage at 50km+ and you'll see what the whine is about .. if it actually did significantly less damage than other weapons beyond medium range then the 'problem' could be tanked/ignored but it out-dps' both beams and artillery.
Isn't that what I just said and have been saying this whole thread? A HML Drake doesn't need range boosting modules to achieve >70km range. All other BC's do which sacrifices a lot of slots which the Drake fills with Tank/Gank.
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Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
DarkSide.
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Posted - 2011.03.24 10:42:00 -
[55]
Just fix the damn thing.
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Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Borza Slavak
Minmatar
Universal Army
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Posted - 2011.03.24 10:59:00 -
[56]
Switch the 5% shield resist bonus to 5% shield amount.
Still just as viable for solo and pve without massively outclassing the other battlecruisers (and arguably some battleships) when logistic support is present.
Yes, a couple of other BCs do have resist bonuses but without the superb slots and fitting that the drake has. To have tanks even close (but still inferior) their DPS is much lower than even the drake's.
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Swynet
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Posted - 2011.03.24 11:18:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Cassus Temon
We use large Tech II Shield Transporters; but 3-4 on one Tengu; just barely holds the ship up, under full onslaught.
I'm not sure of what you're stating but with 160M radius, over 850M/s and lower resist around 75% maybe your guy is doing something wrong (in fact full T2 fit I get between 84 to 93% with my skills not perfect).
These numbers are for a T2 fit and no implants, so these can get bigger if you consider that missile and shield or radius/speed implants are out there.
Knowing that base shield resists in a Tengu are stronger than the Drake, knowing the 5% resists per lvl is available to the tengu, knowing that the Drake gets over 400m radius while the Tengu only 160. Your guy is doing something wrong for sure.
________________________________________________
Originally by: Goose99
In EVE, PVE can happen anywhere, anytime. Whenever you undock, you subject yourself to involuntary PVE.
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Korg Tronix
The Mabinogion
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Posted - 2011.03.24 12:27:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Borza Slavak
Switch the 5% shield resist bonus to 5% shield amount.
Still just as viable for solo and pve without massively outclassing the other battlecruisers (and arguably some battleships) when logistic support is present.
Yes, a couple of other BCs do have resist bonuses but without the superb slots and fitting that the drake has. To have tanks even close (but still inferior) their DPS is much lower than even the drake's.
If we are ignoring weapon problems the Ferox actually gets tank and DPS pretty much on par with the HAM Drake 
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Flynn Fetladral
Caldari
BlackSite Prophecy
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Posted - 2011.03.24 14:17:00 -
[59]
I don't see a problem with them to be honest. A few years ago, if you brought a Drake to a small gang or fleet a lot of FC's told you to Pi*s Off. Now you got people telling you to bring Drakes. They are in fashion, and like people have said before, lots of people can fly them. I don't see a problem with the range of heavy missiles, the other BC's can shoot out to around 70km the issue is they have to sacrifice tank/dmg mods to do it, while the drake does not. If there was a drake nerf it should be to its overall shield hit points maybe a -5% to shield hit points.
Follow Flynn on Twitter |
Borza Slavak
Minmatar
Universal Army
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Posted - 2011.03.24 14:58:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Korg Tronix
If we are ignoring weapon problems the Ferox actually gets tank and DPS pretty much on par with the HAM Drake
That's a pretty massive problem to ignore
Anyway the ferox still has one less mid but tank is only really on par if drake uses the same number of mid slots for it that the ferox does.
Originally by: Flynn Fetladral
I don't see a problem with them to be honest. A few years ago, if you brought a Drake to a small gang or fleet a lot of FC's told you to Pi*s Off. Now you got people telling you to bring Drakes. They are in fashion, and like people have said before, lots of people can fly them. I don't see a problem with the range of heavy missiles, the other BC's can shoot out to around 70km the issue is they have to sacrifice tank/dmg mods to do it, while the drake does not. If there was a drake nerf it should be to its overall shield hit points maybe a -5% to shield hit points.
A few years ago you didn't have medium rigs. 3x extender drakes were a much bigger asset to risk.
A few years ago logistics pilots and cruisers were far less commonly seen. Resist bonused ships were thus not as favoured.
Nerfing shield hit points by 5% would do absolutely nothing balance-wise. Change resist bonus to hp bonus.
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