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Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
452
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Posted - 2012.08.28 15:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
as title.
Make a game that rewards a player for knowledge, fitting, expirience and precision.....
Then add chance based dice roles to HUGELY powerful things like ECM and not so life critical things like salvaging and invention.
Sorry, call me a freak, but i just dont think that is "eve"
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
Gabrielle Lamb
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
15
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Posted - 2012.08.28 15:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
It's called Calculated Risk, and proper ECM usage recuires both skill, experience and knowledge. Predicting what ships you're most likely to meet, what ships are most importaint to jam, which ones are easier / harder to jam, overloading jammers for extra strength when recuired and so on. It's not all that different from shooting with autocannons. |
Alara IonStorm
3063
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Posted - 2012.08.28 15:59:00 -
[3] - Quote
Gun Damage works on a chance dice role.
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
31
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Posted - 2012.08.28 16:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
We are talking about contested rolls
I don't think its unreasonable for a computer to sometimes fail in the tracking of a small target or for a ECM module to struggle breaking through the defences of a ECCM module..
Why on EARTH should chance not come into it? |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
453
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Posted - 2012.08.28 17:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
chance based is fine when skilled for and played against one or a few players.
the issue is when a dice roll is played by many numbers (multiple players with multiple modules) the chance of success rockets up, this is why ecm drones are even great 1v1 because you get 5 rolls every x seconds.
Im just calling for a fix where stacking takes effect on rolls as well as module stacks.
Look at all other EW, i put 2 modules lets say damps on a target and a gang friend puts to on, the target enjoys a 4 module stack meaning probably around 2-3 effective ness. now if we said we were using ecm i get 2 rolls my friend gets 2 rolls, a hit from any of us is 100% for every module, not the stacking penalized 4 down to 2-3 and also i might ass with less effect.
Salvaging and invention suffer the same thing, however running alot of jobs or using multiple modules like ECM, makes for a better success.
I just feel that this isnt very "eve".
Disagree, thats fine, this is a discussion about it after all.
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
453
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Posted - 2012.08.28 17:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:We are talking about contested rolls
I don't think its unreasonable for a computer to sometimes fail in the tracking of a small target or for a ECM module to struggle breaking through the defences of a ECCM module..
Why on EARTH should chance not come into it?
ecm is vs sensor strength, an eccm module only makes your chance to be jammed per ecm module less, still any single success will jam you for the 20 seconds, so if everyone in a gang were to use ecm drones AND one ecm module, your chances absoulty sky rocket, this goes simply promotes zee blob with tedious yet powerful ew on their enemy.
ever had 10 peoples ecm drones on you? It sucks.
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
notha atfast
Jabba Industries INC.
Punkz 'n Monkeys
23
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Posted - 2012.08.28 17:35:00 -
[7] - Quote
If all of their ECM drones are on you...they are not using DPS drones and they are not on anyone else in your fleet. Call it taking one for the team :D
It no worse than focusing alpha strikes. They just happened to make you their primary for ECM. |
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
78
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Posted - 2012.08.28 17:50:00 -
[8] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote:as title.
Make a game that rewards a player for knowledge, fitting, expirience and precision.....
Obviously, EVE punishes anyone who's bad at statistics. |
Bluestream3
the Goose Flock
17
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Posted - 2012.08.28 18:55:00 -
[9] - Quote
Yes, streamline everything! Remove every single thing that is different from the 'normal' game mechanics. Then, surely we'll get a fun game to play.
This is, IMO, the kind of thinking that ruins games today. |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
626
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Posted - 2012.08.28 18:57:00 -
[10] - Quote
Exploited Engineer wrote:Muad 'dib wrote:as title.
Make a game that rewards a player for knowledge, fitting, expirience and precision..... Obviously, EVE punishes anyone who's bad at statistics.
If only life were as unforgiving.... |
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Airto TLA
Puppeteers of Doom
Real Life Rejects
23
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Posted - 2012.08.28 18:59:00 -
[11] - Quote
Random numbers are very frustrating in any situation where the law of large numbers has not yet begun to take effect. (I believe that is what it is called). Basically in small sample sizes such as 5-10 invention jobs, one falcon jamming you and your three freinds, your falcon failing to jam either of the non eccm equipped logis three cycles in a row and you and your friends dying are all very annoing.
This is what makes dice rolls, bad. Firing guns tends to have so many dice rolls that actual value will almost always approach expected over the course of several fights to the point it can almost be ignored.
Or small sizes bite, when you get "unlucky", rule when you get "lucky" and you will always rember being unlucky longer than being lucky.
Is there a better answer, sometimes yes, sometimes no. I kind of wish invention was just adjusted to a set cost/time per unit and based on thne current expected values (your skills/base item/decryptor would modify invention time cost, so I could get more consistent results. |
Kosetzu
Avitus Lugus
11
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Posted - 2012.08.28 19:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
Airto TLA wrote:I kind of wish invention was just adjusted to a set cost/time per unit and based on thne current expected values (your skills/base item/decryptor would modify invention time cost, so I could get more consistent results.
I really wish that were the case. They have at least admitted that the system isn't working as they want it to... Nobody knows when it will be addressed though.
As for the general modules rolls, removing them would be make game simpler than WoW even... Which is not what most of eve wants I'd say. Certain rolls might seem a bit too likely too work just as others seem to be very unlikely.
Like already stated in this thread you always remember the times it does not go your way. ECM drones might need some tweaking, and multiple jams having a reduced chance of hitting might work... But ECM is not like other forms of EWAR and such, and should not be treated as such either.
Everything has optimals and falloffs, but the effect of optimal/falloff is very different from module to module. You only need one ECM cycle to land for a full jam, it's not like you can get double effects from it and therefore it does not need a diminishing effect. What would that even be, being semi-jammed? Going down to max 1 targeted or something? Diminishing returns on other forms of EWAR is there because it can be applied multiple times on the same ship and still have an effect. |
Griznatch
Xicron Syndicate
Tus Network
168
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Posted - 2012.08.28 21:32:00 -
[13] - Quote
But what about the all the money I spent on this big bag of snazzy looking dice?
I used to have a clever sig but I lost it. |
NotTheSmartestCookie
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.08.28 21:48:00 -
[14] - Quote
Airto TLA wrote:Random numbers are very frustrating in any situation where the law of large numbers has not yet begun to take effect. (I believe that is what it is called). Basically in small sample sizes such as 5-10 invention jobs, one falcon jamming you and your three freinds, your falcon failing to jam either of the non eccm equipped logis three cycles in a row and you and your friends dying are all very annoing.
This is what makes dice rolls, bad. Firing guns tends to have so many dice rolls that actual value will almost always approach expected over the course of several fights to the point it can almost be ignored.
Or small sizes bite, when you get "unlucky", rule when you get "lucky" and you will always rember being unlucky longer than being lucky.
Is there a better answer, sometimes yes, sometimes no. I kind of wish invention was just adjusted to a set cost/time per unit and based on thne current expected values (your skills/base item/decryptor would modify invention time cost, so I could get more consistent results.
Being jammed by a Falcon while setting up invention jobs would be very annoying. |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
149
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Posted - 2012.08.29 00:48:00 -
[15] - Quote
EVE isn't a fighting game. Just like every MMO, you don't win just because you hit the right buttons in the right order the fastest. Chance makes things more fun, more interesting, and more balanced. |
Tor Gungnir
Agenda Industries
394
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Posted - 2012.08.29 01:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
The roll of the die is what makes turrets that much more exciting to use than missiles.
Great hit! Miss! Great hit! WRECKING HIT! Miss, you fail!
-or-
Hit. Hit. Hit. Hit. Hit. Another hit. Hit. Hit.
Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you. |
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
80
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Posted - 2012.08.29 16:05:00 -
[17] - Quote
Tor Gungnir wrote:The roll of the die is what makes turrets that much more exciting to use than missiles.
Yes. Even when shooting captial guns at a shuttle orbiting at 1km, there's a 1% chance of hitting ... and this will be a wrecking hit for 3x damage. |
Tor Gungnir
Agenda Industries
396
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Posted - 2012.08.29 17:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
Exploited Engineer wrote:Tor Gungnir wrote:The roll of the die is what makes turrets that much more exciting to use than missiles. Yes. Even when shooting captial guns at a shuttle orbiting at 1km, there's a 1% chance of hitting ... and this will be a wrecking hit for 3x damage.
Seeing how the shell is probably ten, if not more, times the size of the shuttle...
Yeah.
Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you. |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
1668
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Posted - 2012.08.29 17:38:00 -
[19] - Quote
Go to jail. Do not pass go. |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
455
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Posted - 2012.08.29 17:48:00 -
[20] - Quote
Dorian Wylde wrote:EVE isn't a fighting game. Just like every MMO, you don't win just because you hit the right buttons in the right order the fastest. Chance makes things more fun, more interesting, and more balanced.
are you saying that fitting experience with pvp and a good ship dont matter at all if you click the correct order of stuff?
stupid.
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
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Alara IonStorm
3077
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Posted - 2012.08.29 18:01:00 -
[21] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote:Dorian Wylde wrote:EVE isn't a fighting game. Just like every MMO, you don't win just because you hit the right buttons in the right order the fastest. Chance makes things more fun, more interesting, and more balanced. are you saying that fitting experience with pvp and a good ship dont matter at all if you click the correct order of stuff?
No he is saying literally the opposite.
It is a good thing you asked to clairify that before jumping to conclusions...
Oh.
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Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
455
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Posted - 2012.08.29 18:20:00 -
[22] - Quote
Alara IonStorm wrote:Muad 'dib wrote:Dorian Wylde wrote:EVE isn't a fighting game. Just like every MMO, you don't win just because you hit the right buttons in the right order the fastest. Chance makes things more fun, more interesting, and more balanced. are you saying that fitting experience with pvp and a good ship dont matter at all if you click the correct order of stuff? No he is saying literally the opposite. It is a good thing you asked to clairify that before jumping to conclusions... Oh.
please clarify i am retardentious
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
Dessau
52
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Posted - 2012.08.29 18:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
notha atfast wrote:If all of their ECM drones are on you...they are not using DPS drones and they are not on anyone else in your fleet. Call it taking one for the team :D
...and if you're solo?
I was asked about this on reddit, how I would replace RNG with jamming and still maintain balance between jammer and jammee. While the mechanic chafes badly, I couldn't present a more workable alternative other than introducing new ECCM skills to mitigate the impact of RNG on jamming.
Maybe someone will come up with a better suggestion here.
Look not to FW and metagaming circlejerk isk-faucetry. Look not to thy brothers-in-arms who will not undock without 10-man advantage and off-grid links. Look not to the feudal wastes north and south, to mad throngs of pubescent wangdanglers. Nay, but whither wilt thou find thy virtue and glory, thy solo and small-gang PvP? Whither wane goodfights for goodfights' sake? |
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
80
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Posted - 2012.08.29 18:56:00 -
[24] - Quote
Dessau wrote:...and if you're solo?
Smartbomb 'em. |
Dessau
52
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Posted - 2012.08.29 20:11:00 -
[25] - Quote
Exploited Engineer wrote:Dessau wrote:...and if you're solo? Smartbomb 'em.
Ubwaa, a whole new realm of fitting challenges. Looks like it would take about 8 cycles to chew them down, not sure if I will last that long.
Good answer, though. +1
Look not to FW and metagaming circlejerk isk-faucetry. Look not to thy brothers-in-arms who will not undock without 10-man advantage and off-grid links. Look not to the feudal wastes north and south, to mad throngs of pubescent wangdanglers. Nay, but whither wilt thou find thy virtue and glory, thy solo and small-gang PvP? Whither wane goodfights for goodfights' sake? |
Noisrevbus
215
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Posted - 2012.08.30 10:50:00 -
[26] - Quote
Muad-dib, it's terminology time again...
You seem to be working two angles at once, and that's very inefficient way to argue a point (though we all fall into that trap quite often). Let me break it down for you:
Are you arguing the chance-based effect per definition?
or
Are you arguing the scalability issues inherent in the system?
It feels like you are trying to argue the second on the basis of the first.
What you should do is separate them, define them properly on their own and analyze the related issues.
Once you do that you're likely to reach the same conclusion as i have.
Don't buff or nerf the system. Don't overtly re-design the system. Re-balance the system.
1. Limit active modules per target to 1 (down).
2. Turn the racial modules into scripts (up).
That would result in a positive end-effect that balance the current system, all existing modules (including ECCM), scalability and counteract any percieved abuse as well as everything else that was intended by the original design. It does it all without massive workload, re-creating the entire system or risk of ruining either the system itself or any affected peripherals. Imbalances do not necessarily imply a faulty core design.
The problem isn't the chance itself. The problem is the ability to brute-force around it, as you mention, while the system remain stale and inflexible (so it's powerful upperhanded and weak underhanded). It just need to be smooth, more powerful when less specialized and less powerful when overstacked. Those two simple mutually balancing fixes do just that. |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
455
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Posted - 2012.08.30 11:58:00 -
[27] - Quote
To the guy above yes, thats exactly what im getting it!
I do lack some explaining skills but i know the game well :)
http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
149
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Posted - 2012.08.30 19:29:00 -
[28] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote:Dorian Wylde wrote:EVE isn't a fighting game. Just like every MMO, you don't win just because you hit the right buttons in the right order the fastest. Chance makes things more fun, more interesting, and more balanced. are you saying that fitting experience with pvp and a good ship dont matter at all if you click the correct order of stuff? stupid.
Yes, your statement was incredibly stupid, and had nothing to do with what I said.
Fitting knowledge should be one factor, wallet size should be another, but a person who has a basic knowledge of fitting and can only afford T2 modules should still have a chance against someone who spent hours ekeing out every iota of performance from their ship, and who can happily drop officer mods into every slot. |
Noisrevbus
215
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Posted - 2012.08.30 19:59:00 -
[29] - Quote
Dorian Wylde wrote:
That is a very interesting idea!
Not mine, i should be honest and point that out.
It was hatched over on FHC ages ago. I guess you could say that relating it to scripts is my amendment, but that is such an obvious way to deal with the inflexibility so it can hardly be argued unique or interesting. They do make a nice pair together though, give and take. |
Tasiv Deka
Immortal Syndicate
47
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Posted - 2012.08.30 20:35:00 -
[30] - Quote
Tl;DR: Op got Falcon'ed... GET OVER IT second part Op didnt get a good salvage drop... GET OVER IT
I'm not really in the mood to put up with people who are going to do nothing but ***** especially over game mechanics that are that way for a reason... without RNGs programming becomes fairly damn buggy if you cant handle this dont play a freaking game with coding much longer than pong.
I am currently not a happy person. |
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