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Obsidiana
White-Noise
157
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 08:44:00 -
[31] - Quote
Good points.
Let us consider a different direction.
It seems to me the problem is in webs. That is what has led us here. The range is too short and they do too little. The fastest race has become the best because the counter to speed is now more speed. (Longer range webs could have countered the nano ships of old too.)
I have been saying for a long time that webs need falloff. Scripts to create trade-offs are another option. Small/medium/large modules should also be considered. A long range and short range module separation, in conjunction with other changes, could help. Long ago skills to affect web/scram were planned and scrapped. They should be revisited.
Question:
If the web, with maybe a cap use drawback, had falloff to reach the long range scram mod, how would that change the Hurricane/Hurricane match? Could this be the answer to the problem? This also would help the Caldari, who shield tank better but do not have the speed advantage. It seems to be Minmatar and webs as the problem; not armor drawbacks and shield advantages.
If the problem was really shield tanking, several Caldari ships (besides the Drake) would be in the place of Winmatar (who displaced the Drake more than once with the Cane). Now that ASBs are in game they have seen a boost, but that does not explain the older speed (perhaps not armor at all) problem. |

Paikis
Lycosa Syndicate Surely You're Joking
139
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 10:58:00 -
[32] - Quote
Sigras wrote:In a kiting situation there are two groups: 1. the fastest group - It gets to dictate range and disengage if you get in trouble 2. not the fastest group - it doesnt get to dictate range and has no ability to disengage.
So you want all ships to be the same speed? |

Obsidiana
White-Noise
157
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 17:18:00 -
[33] - Quote
Paikis wrote:Sigras wrote:In a kiting situation there are two groups: 1. the fastest group - It gets to dictate range and disengage if you get in trouble 2. not the fastest group - it doesnt get to dictate range and has no ability to disengage. So you want all ships to be the same speed? I don't, but there needs to be a counter to speed beside more speed, as I mentioned above. Webs tweaked with falloff/scripts/diversity is my suggestion. I think they are the real problem and have been since the beginning of EVE. |

Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
187
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 19:16:00 -
[34] - Quote
Obsidiana wrote:Good points.
Let us consider a different direction.
It seems to me the problem is in webs. That is what has led us here. The range is too short and they do too little. The fastest race has become the best because the counter to speed is now more speed. (Longer range webs could have countered the nano ships of old too.)
I have been saying for a long time that webs need falloff. Scripts to create trade-offs are another option. Small/medium/large modules should also be considered. A long range and short range module separation, in conjunction with other changes, could help. Long ago skills to affect web/scram were planned and scrapped. They should be revisited.
Question:
If the web, with maybe a cap use drawback, had falloff to reach the long range scram mod, how would that change the Hurricane/Hurricane match? Could this be the answer to the problem? This also would help the Caldari, who shield tank better but do not have the speed advantage. It seems to be Minmatar and webs as the problem; not armor drawbacks and shield advantages.
If the problem was really shield tanking, several Caldari ships (besides the Drake) would be in the place of Winmatar (who displaced the Drake more than once with the Cane). Now that ASBs are in game they have seen a boost, but that does not explain the older speed (perhaps not armor at all) problem. I agree, webs could fix the problem but, I feel like the problem with this is balance. It would be almost impossible to balance those webs. They would either be useless or they would make shield ships useless.
I really think the key is in the agility. Armor plates shouldnt effect your top speed (in space you shouldnt even have a top speed, but anyway) they should effect your inertia. same with armor rigs. They should effect your inertia to such a point that its noticable.
It would be interesting to see gallente ships be the fastest ships, but the least agile. This would mean that you could still kite gallente ships, but you couldnt do it by just hitting "keep at range" you would have to turn and weave in order to take advantage of your superior agility. |

Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
187
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 19:22:00 -
[35] - Quote
Paikis wrote:Sigras wrote:In a kiting situation there are two groups: 1. the fastest group - It gets to dictate range and disengage if you get in trouble 2. not the fastest group - it doesnt get to dictate range and has no ability to disengage. So you want all ships to be the same speed? no, but I dont want shield ships to be the "fast ships" and armor ships to be the "slow ships" it should be dependant on fit.
I suppose you could just not fit armor rigs to your armor ship, but that seems a bit like an over nerf to me dont you think?
This is why im in favor of an agility nerf not a speed nerf to armor rigs. |

PinkKnife
Noir. Academy Noir. Mercenary Group
205
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 19:25:00 -
[36] - Quote
There are two issues here:
1. Active Tanking vs Passive (buffer tanking. 2. Shield tanking vs Armor tanking.
This being about armor tanking, I'll leave the passive/active argument out of it.
The fix for this is to simply have shield extenders penalties drastically increased so that signature radius becomes something to worry about.
As of now, speed is drastically more important than signature as it aids in range control and dictation, as well as commitment or not. Signature just changes how fast you are to lock, and how easy you are to hit. Those aren't equal trade-offs. |

Obsidiana
White-Noise
157
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 19:50:00 -
[37] - Quote
Sigras wrote:I agree, webs could fix the problem but, I feel like the problem with this is balance. It would be almost impossible to balance those webs. They would either be useless or they would make shield ships useless. Well, if the falloff dropped a 40% web to 20%, that would slow down the shield Cane to 1147.2, which still isn't enough . But. A dual web would bring it down to under or around 1000. Now we have similar speeds and a hope to catch up. The shield Cane can keep some range over time, but not forever. The armor Cane might be able to tank the damage, plus the web would increase in effectiveness over time. The armor Cane would eventually have a true speed advantage, allowing it to then partially speed tank. The shield Cane would have to disengage early or not at all, providing it did not get to close by mistake.
I think this would make it a close fight; a much better situation then exists. SP and experience should more or less determine who wins. |

Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
192
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 22:31:00 -
[38] - Quote
so your suggestion is to have a 40% web with no optimal and a 24 km falloff?
hmmm . . . ok, that wouldnt unbalance the rapier/huggin/loki or the skirmish link.
Would it be too powerful? I guess maybe not if you needed two of them to catch a hurricane . . . it might be a bit overpowered on frigates though.
Ok, i guess i can roll with that idea |

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
382
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 01:20:00 -
[39] - Quote
Armor tanks have their place on most ships that are capable of fitting either way. Shield fits are better for solo / logi-free small gang PvP, while armor fits are often better if you can put an organized gang together (with things like logi and recons as support). Watch Garmon and friends demolish entire gatecamps with a couple of armor tanked ships + a logi (sometimes) and tell me armor tanked ships are bad for small-gang PvP.
ASBs are stupid and should be pulled from the game. If active shield tanking needed a buff they should have looked into tweaking the stats on shield boosters, not introducing a cap-independent version that has almost zero fitting drawbacks. |

Obsidiana
White-Noise
158
|
Posted - 2012.09.01 03:33:00 -
[40] - Quote
Ganthrithor wrote:ASBs are stupid and should be pulled from the game. If active shield tanking needed a buff they should have looked into tweaking the stats on shield boosters, not introducing a cap-independent version that has almost zero fitting drawbacks. I'm inclined to agree more on the side of CCP Fozzie, as he addressed the issue directly. I think he has competent notions of balancing. This module acts is virtually a cap injector and a shield booster in one.
CCP Fozzie wrote:Firstly, we are very aware of the many problems we're facing in tanking design at the moment. The balance between active and passive tanks, and between armor and shield (and honour) tanking are both in need of work. ASBs have made parts of this problem better (adding new interesting gameplay and making "active" tanking more popular) while making other parts worse (too good in many circumstances, and skewing the meta further towards shield). Armor and shield tanking balance suffers because mass (and velocity) penalties are far more severe than signature radius penalties in most circumstances, and to a lesser extent because of the difference between shield hitting at the start of a cycle and armor hitting at the end. This is especially harmful for active tanking Gallente blaster ships that need that speed to get within range. These problems are real and we are working on them, but the solution isn't to skew the ships themselves too far in the opposite direction. Our goals are to hit the problems at their source. |

Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
204
|
Posted - 2012.09.03 05:35:00 -
[41] - Quote
Nestara Aldent wrote:Putting races into roles (RPG 'class' system) is harmful, yet its what CCP did so far. IMO every race should have ships viable for all the roles (skirmishing in small gangs, or ships with significant buffer and projection fro large scale fights), yet remain distinctive, and have weak and strong points. They do. Each individual ship is different from each other ship. The racial roles are a general trend, and many of their ships match it. -á"The Mittani: Hated By Badposters i'm strangely comfortable with it" -Mittens |

nahjustwarpin
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
37
|
Posted - 2012.09.03 10:41:00 -
[42] - Quote
midslot propulsion booster mod, that boost agility and/or speed |
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