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PVE Machariel -- Armor vs Shield

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Tommy Rollins The Feynman Syndicate	Posted - 2011.03.29 16:15:00 - [1] Edited by: Tommy Rollins on 29/03/2011 16:16:15 Okay so trying to decide between armor/shield mach. Any opinions here? It seems like it could be fit either way in all honesty.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.03.29 16:53:00 - [2] There no reason whatsoever to fit it with an armour tank. Those lowslots are meant for exactly two things: gyros and tracking enhancers. So unless you can build a good one- (or maaaaaybe two-)slot armour tank, you'll want to keep the tank in your mids. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Missy Sasha	Posted - 2011.03.29 17:04:00 - [3] What he said^
Exordium8 Minmatar Not a Shell Corp	Posted - 2011.03.29 17:11:00 - [4] What they said ^ --------------------------------- Pillage, then burn. Everything is air-droppable at least once. There is no 'overkill.' There is only 'open fire' and 'time to reload.
DeftCrow Redriver Gallente Best Path Inc. Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.03.29 17:18:00 - [5] Originally by: Tippia Those lowslots are meant for exactly two things: gyros and tracking enhancers. /thread
Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2011.03.29 17:30:00 - [6] Originally by: Exordium8 What they said ^ amen. .
Barakkus	Posted - 2011.03.29 18:57:00 - [7] I don't know, I couldn't come up with a shield tank I was happy with so I've just been using this: [Machariel] Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane Damage Control II Shadow Serpentis Large Armor Repairer Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Shadow Serpentis Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Gist C-Type 100MN Afterburner Heavy Capacitor Booster II Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Republic Fleet Target Painter 800mm Repeating Artillery II 800mm Repeating Artillery II 800mm Repeating Artillery II 800mm Repeating Artillery II 800mm Repeating Artillery II 800mm Repeating Artillery II 800mm Repeating Artillery II E50 Prototype Energy Vampire Large Projectile Ambit Extension I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Probably isn't the most efficient, but I like it. Would be interested in seeing a good shield setup though. - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
Guerrabelle	Posted - 2011.03.29 19:24:00 - [8] The faction XL booster is cheap and necessary to get in under CPU constraints. At least the first two gyros should be Faction too. [Machariel, missions - basic] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Shield Boost Amplifier II Caldari Navy X-Large Shield Booster 100MN Afterburner II 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L [empty high slot] Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Barakkus	Posted - 2011.03.29 19:42:00 - [9] Edited by: Barakkus on 29/03/2011 19:43:03 Originally by: Guerrabelle The faction XL booster is cheap and necessary to get in under CPU constraints. At least the first two gyros should be Faction too. [Machariel, missions - basic] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Shield Boost Amplifier II Caldari Navy X-Large Shield Booster 100MN Afterburner II 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Fusion L [empty high slot] Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I Large Semiconductor Memory Cell I Only slightly more damage if you do my setup with all republic fleet gyros and swap out the 2 gyros on yours. It also has a third less ehp and your cap lasts half as long as mine. Would be better off with a Maelstrom for the extra mid imo. But have to see how it works in practice I suppose. - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
Guerrabelle	Posted - 2011.03.29 20:35:00 - [10] Those three TE's are what make all the difference really. You end up having a ton more range. On the EHP tank point - the burst tank works better in missions. Your setup has only about 210 on omni for my mission runner. You should be killing rats fast enough that you only need to rep for the first minute or so of a spawn anyways (if you even need to rep at all). Also, trimarks are bad on a mission ship. bad bad bad. Slows you down big time, which is one of the selling points of the mach.

Barakkus	Posted - 2011.03.29 20:57:00 - [11] Edited by: Barakkus on 29/03/2011 21:02:55 Originally by: Guerrabelle Those three TE's are what make all the difference really. You end up having a ton more range. On the EHP tank point - the burst tank works better in missions. Your setup has only about 210 on omni for my mission runner. You should be killing rats fast enough that you only need to rep for the first minute or so of a spawn anyways (if you even need to rep at all). Also, trimarks are bad on a mission ship. bad bad bad. Slows you down big time, which is one of the selling points of the mach. My fit = 514 m/s Yours = 552 m/s Pretty negligible difference. Your dps = 863, 2859 volley Mine = 825, 2818 volley Pretty negligible difference. If I took off the trimarks I could easily come within 10 points of your setup using more dps oriented rigs. Your setup sustained defense = 124 My sustained defense = 185 Burst defense yours is twice as high as mine 228 vs 585, but the difference is I don't have to activate my tank as much, probably half as often as you would on your setup. Your setup works about as well as my usual Maelstrom setup, but that's with my skills, not sure what each would operate with your skill set...that may be the major difference. Even if I took off the trimarks I end up with over 80k ehp, whereas yours doesn't break 60k, my usual Maelstrom setup is around the tankiness of your Mach setup. If I had my druthers I'd go with the armor tanked mach setup over the shield tank setup...it's cheaper and imo has better tank for doing pve. If flown right, the TEs aren't going to give you that much of an advantage over what I have setup...I basically get in close, orbit close then burst the AB and switch to keep at range while webbing my target and end up with perfect hits due to their transversal being almost 0 on the way out. - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
MrCue Drones of Annihilation	Posted - 2011.03.29 20:58:00 - [12] Take a look at the Machariel fits on BattleClinic, read the discussions on the better rated fits. Battleclinic
vicror Critical Density	Posted - 2011.03.30 03:05:00 - [13] armor vrs. em/therm damg dealing rats if you think you'll fair better vrs. them than with shields or just don't have any shield skills. otherwise use shield tank mach.
Dark Voynix Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2011.03.30 08:21:00 - [14] Edited by: Dark Voynix on 30/03/2011 08:24:56 Originally by: Barakkus Your dps = 863, 2859 volley Mine = 825, 2818 volley Pretty negligible difference. If I took off the trimarks I could easily come within 10 points of your setup using more dps oriented rigs. Now that you did math of your dps at 0km, try to do math at your DPS on targets at 40km and 60km . Stop using eft and start to THINK. Autocannons shot almost always in falloff so your nominal DPS will be reduced a lot depending on how deep in falloff you are (is commoly agreed that at optimal + 100% falloff you do 1/2 of your nominal dammage). You also seems to forget that your shots dont do alwasys the same dammage. Hitting quality dephend a lott by tracking so even if eft dont raise your nominal DPS, interms of REAL usage and REAL DPS there its a huge difference. EDIT: Forgot to mention that in case you are really at optimal range, you are exactly where tracking make the biggest difference.
Barakkus	Posted - 2011.03.30 13:04:00 - [15] Edited by: Barakkus on 30/03/2011 13:05:59 Edited by: Barakkus on 30/03/2011 13:04:36 Originally by: Dark Voynix Edited by: Dark Voynix on 30/03/2011 08:24:56 Originally by: Barakkus Your dps = 863, 2859 volley Mine = 825, 2818 volley Pretty negligible difference. If I took off the trimarks I could easily come within 10 points of your setup using more dps oriented rigs. Now that you did math of your dps at 0km, try to do math at your DPS on targets at 40km and 60km . Stop using eft and start to THINK. Autocannons shot almost always in falloff so your nominal DPS will be reduced a lot depending on how deep in falloff you are (is commoly agreed that at optimal + 100% falloff you do 1/2 of your nominal dammage). You also seems to forget that your shots dont do alwasys the same dammage. Hitting quality dephend a lott by tracking so even if eft dont raise your nominal DPS, interms of REAL usage and REAL DPS there its a huge difference. EDIT: Forgot to mention that in case you are really at optimal range, you are exactly where tracking make the biggest difference. Yeah, but if you read how I fly it above you won't be in falloff and will be able to tank the damage better than a shield tank mach. And regardless the shield tanked mach has almost the same range, and you would be in about the same position as the shield tanked mach and have pretty close to the same damage output. Optimal on the shield tanked mach = 4.5 + 66, armor tanked = 3.5 + 54, you're looking at a 12km difference in range between the 2, pretty minimal. - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
Petrov Kreigt Caldari Asteroids Civil Rights Union D'Haran Empire.	Posted - 2011.03.30 13:09:00 - [16] Edited by: Petrov Kreigt on 30/03/2011 13:10:57 Machariel tanks via its DPS, the ability to kick the stuffing through anything you lock out to a great range... means that you dont have to have a long lasting tank, an XL boosting Mach will run missions faster and due everything being dead before a lot of damage comes your way, you dont need a long lasting tank. In cases when it does hit the fan, then you have 2 minutes to rectify the situation, and if you cant do that in that time frame then you're doing it wrong.
Dark Voynix Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2011.03.30 13:56:00 - [17] Edited by: Dark Voynix on 30/03/2011 13:57:07 Originally by: Barakkus Optimal on the shield tanked mach = 4.5 + 66, armor tanked = 3.5 + 54, you're looking at a 12km difference in range between the 2, pretty minimal. Dunno how you got this numbers, but if you add 1 Tracking_Enhancer_II on a mach you have +30% falloff . So with your numbers if your skills give 54km, then 54*1.3= 70,2km WITH ONE ENCHANGER. My mach mount 3 damage mods and 3 track links and i tank with a medium shield booster (cheap faction). Realy dunno what are your problems with shield tanked mach. All i know is that i melt everything even before they come close. I often aggro whole rooms ( just to make them come closer) and i never had any tanking problem, nor had to warp away. Most people put large or X-large shield boosters for occasional pulse, i survive even with meds ( used semy continously) and never had not any problem. THe truth is that a mach with 3x enchangers and 3 ( or 4) damage mods ( depending is you want a damage mods or not) melt everything before tanking come into play or npc come close enough to do a decent dammage.
Barakkus	Posted - 2011.03.30 14:48:00 - [18] Edited by: Barakkus on 30/03/2011 14:51:26 Originally by: Dark Voynix Dunno how you got this numbers Here ya go. Shield Armor You seem to completely discount all other factors of fitting both types of setups. I currently have Trajectory Analysis 4. My tanking skills for both setups are completely maxed. Regardless, you would probably see very similar results depending on how you fly it and the combination of different mods and skills. You're also neglecting the fact that range of the ships also varies from mission to mission, you will generally see 30-50km at the onset. But you can also see starting off between 50 and 100km, so it all is situational. I'm not really saying one is better than the other aside from the armor setup gives you a better tank imo. It's all situational and how you fly it. And yes, I can aggro a whole room and not worry either. I consider it completely ignorant to just flat out say "this setup is always better regardless". It has a lot of different factors to it, including how you utilize your slots. - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
Dark Voynix Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2011.03.30 15:03:00 - [19] Edited by: Dark Voynix on 30/03/2011 15:04:37 Well, you useone 1 med slot for cap on armour setup and 3 rigs for cap on the shield one. This isnt that fair. I dont have 3 cap rigs on my shield setup... Anyway, as you say.. its situational. I dont remember exact numbers but im pretty sure i have over 100km falloff, and care welcome if nps bs's start from greater distance ( worlds collide? ).
Patient 2428190 DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School	Posted - 2011.03.30 15:35:00 - [20] Edited by: Patient 2428190 on 30/03/2011 15:38:59 For lvl 4s...With a deadspace rep + 2 specific resists, you could actually do it and gank more than a typical shield fit. Your tank goes down quite a bit and you will need to fit specific resists.. but the almighty gank factor will be higher from the virtue that Tracking Computers give more bonuses than Tracking Enhancers [Machariel, C] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Corpus C-Type Large Armor Repairer Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Explosive Hardener II Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Republic Fleet 100MN Afterburner 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet Fusion L Drone Link Augmentor I Large Projectile Burst Aerator II Large Anti-Explosive Pump I [empty rig slot] Valkyrie II x5 Warrior II x5 For anoms, stick with shield. ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala.

Barakkus	Posted - 2011.03.30 15:57:00 - [21] Originally by: Dark Voynix I dont remember exact numbers but im pretty sure i have over 100km falloff, and care welcome if nps bs's start from greater distance ( worlds collide? ). Yeah that shield setup would probably be MUCH MUCH MUCH more efficient for the first room in WC, and probably pretty decent for the other rooms. The subsequent rooms are very close range aside from the kiting BSes that stay around 50km (if you aren't in a ship that's fast enough). I usually switch my arty maelstrom to an ac for WC, arty setup is way to painful for WC. ...but then you have AE, which is all fighting between 10-30km for the most part. Trying to do that with a range setup is much slower than just barreling through everything at close range, especially with the webbing. Other thing you have to remember is the annoying jamming guristas...a longer/stronger tank helps a lot for that mess. - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
Guerrabelle	Posted - 2011.03.30 16:31:00 - [22] The XL tank is strong than the LAR tank. You're looking at that sustained number, when it really isn't what you want or need. That burst number is the biggie. The time you really need a tank is when you get dropped right into the middle of a bunch of rats. All those combined will likely do more than the 250ish topend repping that your armor setup can handle. So you'll be slowly bleeding armor until you've popped a few ships. Then you're stuck running the repper for a long time afterwards to top off your armor. Once you reduced those first couple bs \ bc's into wrecks, the incoming dps is negligible. This is why having the bursty rep power of the XL comes in so handy. Run it for 4-5 cycles at the start of a wave and then turn it off. No need to run it long enough for cap boosters. The only missions that have even come close to capping me out are the harder anti-amarr missions. If I was proactive enough to swap out the invulns for appropriate resists even those aren't really an issue. I'm seriously contemplating playing with the rigs and dropping down to 1 or 2 SMC's. Just haven't found much that really is worth it in there. Ambits aren't really appealing since they stack with TE's, but don't increase tracking like TE's.
Songbird Gallente T.I.E. Inc.	Posted - 2011.03.30 16:38:00 - [23] hmm , didn't realize TC were so much better at tracking than TE - 15/30% scripted vs the 7.5%.
Barakkus	Posted - 2011.03.30 16:58:00 - [24] Originally by: Guerrabelle The XL tank is strong than the LAR tank. You're looking at that sustained number, when it really isn't what you want or need. That burst number is the biggie. The time you really need a tank is when you get dropped right into the middle of a bunch of rats. All those combined will likely do more than the 250ish topend repping that your armor setup can handle. So you'll be slowly bleeding armor until you've popped a few ships. Then you're stuck running the repper for a long time afterwards to top off your armor. Once you reduced those first couple bs \ bc's into wrecks, the incoming dps is negligible. This is why having the bursty rep power of the XL comes in so handy. Run it for 4-5 cycles at the start of a wave and then turn it off. No need to run it long enough for cap boosters. The only missions that have even come close to capping me out are the harder anti-amarr missions. If I was proactive enough to swap out the invulns for appropriate resists even those aren't really an issue. I'm seriously contemplating playing with the rigs and dropping down to 1 or 2 SMC's. Just haven't found much that really is worth it in there. Ambits aren't really appealing since they stack with TE's, but don't increase tracking like TE's. I generally don't perma run the armor rep, it is pulsed, you just have to get down when to pulse it. You also have a shield resist buffer with the dcuII and speed if you're not up against missle spamming npcs. I don't run the cap booster often actually, it's there when I need a sustained tank. You still spend less cap as opposed to the shield setup since your invulns (or hardeners) are consuming cap constantly, and if you're running invulns they'll consume more cap than specific hardeners. I do like a shield tank more than armor in most situations, but that's just from using a xl boost maelstrom most of the time. Takes some getting used to switching from shield to armor tank. Both are viable options for pve though. The bleed on armor is significantly less than the damage incurred in a shield tank setup, less repping overall, at least that's how it feels to me unless you're doing a passive shield tanked BC. I've found tracking is only an issue when you're orbiting as opposed to keep at range or approaching with the speed you get out of a mach, especially so after you apply a web. I got used to keep at range and how to use it effectively by running an arty maelstrom, you can reduce a lot of the issues with tracking with speed and keep at range. - - [SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring
Vokradacka	Posted - 2011.03.30 17:00:00 - [25] EFT warriors strikes back shield machs witch T2 dmg rig and 3 TEs have MUCH better dmg projection(much better(30%) dps) than armor, armor M. have better tank... so chose pref.
De'Veldrin Minmatar Self Preservation Society the 2nd Dead Terrorists	Posted - 2011.03.31 13:03:00 - [26] So I did a comparison on my own in EFT - armor tanked Mach versus shield tanked because I, like so many others I am sure, thought the shield tank camp was snorting something illegal. Turns out - these guys know what they're talking about. The goal was - what can I build for roughly even money, backed by 3% implants and a fully outfitted command ship (since that's how I roll). Fit for anti angel work (since that's where I mission) Armor Mach: Roughly 770 DPS (incl drones) 1200 DPS rat specific tank. Shield Mach: 1087 DPS (incl drones) 1014 DPS tank (5m of cap). Yes, those are EFT numbers, but the point remains that you're doing 41% more raw damage, and the shield mach can hit things about 15k further away due to the tracking enhancers in the lows. I gotta admit, I thought it was bunk, but looks like I need to work on my shield skills before I buy my Machariel. --Vel Originally by: Blacksquirrel This is EVE. PVE can happen anywhere at anytime. Be prepared.
Julien Brellier	Posted - 2011.03.31 19:23:00 - [27] Fitting an armor tank on a Mach means less slots for gyros and tracking enhancers. This is FAIL.
Marcus McTavish	Posted - 2011.04.02 12:15:00 - [28] shield tanking allows for gyros and tracking enhancers more fallout, damage, range, and tracking Shield > Armor
Love Denied Gallente Caldari Stainless Steel industries	Posted - 2011.04.03 13:46:00 - [29] Fit a DCU for those once in a while lag,disconnect,fk up, gank attempt, falling asleep for a few min mishaps ? not like a 4th gyro really makes that much of a diff anyway *people die when love is denied*


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