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Imaculate Flight
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Posted - 2011.03.30 03:02:00 -
[1]
I pay for all the ammunition to kill ships in a mish and Ninja salvagers come in and steal it then do not get flagged for theft?!?!?!?
I pay good money for an additional account so I can salvage every ship I kill in a mish. Now I have ninja salvagers who come in a sit next to my alts Noctis and salvage everything I tractor in...that is theft...plain and simple.
I pay for two accounts, one for mish, the other for salvaging....why bother. Should I just cancel my salvage alt account???
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Cyriel Longinus
Caldari XERCORE
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Posted - 2011.03.30 03:12:00 -
[2]
Features and Ideas Discussion
Features and Ideas Rules Thread
I'm not opposed about you posting your experience ... but all I read is pure emotion in your post ... that does not clearly convey an idea or a reason for some new feature that allows us to shoot those ninja salvagers.
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
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Posted - 2011.03.30 06:00:00 -
[3]
Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
Per CCP Incognito : Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening. Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.) _______________________
"Just because I seem like an idiot doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
Zan Shiro
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Posted - 2011.03.30 06:44:00 -
[4]
make alt a rr pro...make main less tanky, more ganky and the alt keeps up the reps/transfers to compensate. Throw in leadership/warfare skills for some free bonuses. Go link happy and ships that can fit them if motivated.
or....
leave mission hub cesspools. have gone months and seen like 1 vulture. Left the hubs, downgraded agents a few quality points. Worth it to me....try and see if for you all I can say.
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Cyriel Longinus
Caldari XERCORE
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Posted - 2011.03.30 07:19:00 -
[5]
ShahFluffer's reply = Flawless Victory
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Arden Elenduil
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2011.03.30 07:26:00 -
[6]
u mad brah
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Mireidor
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2011.03.30 08:16:00 -
[7]
Sure sounds like he mad.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.30 10:42:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Imaculate Flight I pay for all the ammunition to kill ships in a mish and Ninja salvagers come in and steal it then do not get flagged for theft?!?!?!?
Of course he doesn't get flagged ù he's not stealing anything.
The ammunition you use to kill those ships is compensated for through the bounties, the LP, the standings increases, the mission rewards, the time bonuses and the loot. The salvage is not part of the package ù if you want it, you have to earn it.
And yes, having a second account simply for salvaging is rather silly. Salvage isn't a particularly good means of income. Just turn it into a second mission runner instead if you want to make money. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
De'Veldrin
Minmatar Self Preservation Society the 2nd Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2011.03.30 12:58:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Zan Shiro make alt a rr pro...make main less tanky, more ganky and the alt keeps up the reps/transfers to compensate. Throw in leadership/warfare skills for some free bonuses. Go link happy and ships that can fit them if motivated.
or....
leave mission hub cesspools. have gone months and seen like 1 vulture. Left the hubs, downgraded agents a few quality points. Worth it to me....try and see if for you all I can say.
Combine these ideas for ultimate win. --Vel
Originally by: Blacksquirrel
This is EVE. PVE can happen anywhere at anytime. Be prepared.
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Johnny Lou
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Posted - 2011.03.30 16:56:00 -
[10]
here's an idea: only abandoned wrecks should be allowed to be salvaged by anyone and once the owner leaves the room all wrecks become abandoned.
everything else should be considered stealing.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.30 17:15:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Tippia on 30/03/2011 17:16:00
Originally by: Johnny Lou here's an idea: only abandoned wrecks should be allowed to be salvaged by anyone and once the owner leaves the room all wrecks become abandoned.
Better idea: earn your salvage like everyone else and stop complaining about how the game doesn't give you stuff for free. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Johnny Lou
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Posted - 2011.03.30 17:20:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 30/03/2011 17:16:00
Originally by: Johnny Lou here's an idea: only abandoned wrecks should be allowed to be salvaged by anyone and once the owner leaves the room all wrecks become abandoned.
Better idea: earn your salvage like everyone else and stop complaining about how the game doesn't give you stuff for free.
Where exactly did you see complains in my post???
And how come you get to decide whether or not I've earned my salvage?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.30 17:35:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Tippia on 30/03/2011 17:35:43
Originally by: Johnny Lou Where exactly did you see complains in my post???
Here: "only abandoned wrecks should be allowed to be salvaged by anyone".
Quote: And how come you get to decide whether or not I've earned my salvage?
I don't. CCP does. You have to earn your salvage, just like everyone else. You do this by training the skill, by equipping the module, by finding and scooting up to the wreck, and by activating your module. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Johnny Lou
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Posted - 2011.03.30 17:50:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 30/03/2011 17:35:43
Originally by: Johnny Lou Where exactly did you see complains in my post???
Here: "only abandoned wrecks should be allowed to be salvaged by anyone".
That's a suggestion (or an opinion, if you wish), not a complaint. If you can't make the difference maybe you shouldn't post (that's another opinion, in case you're wondering)
So, go back to school (advice) and please stop wasting my time (request).
NO complains.
Get it? Got it? Good!
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.30 18:06:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Tippia on 30/03/2011 18:08:28
Originally by: Johnny Lou That's a suggestion
No. Here's a word for you to learn: implicit.
Or are you saying that you don't think there's any need for your suggestion? That only makes it worse. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Johnny Lou
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Posted - 2011.03.30 18:23:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 30/03/2011 18:08:28
Originally by: Johnny Lou That's a suggestion
No. Here's a word for you to learn: implicit.
Here's one for you: assumption
I thought I asked you to stop wasting my time...
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.30 18:32:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Johnny Lou Here's one for you: assumption
So why do you want to change something that's not a problem? ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
De'Veldrin
Minmatar Self Preservation Society the 2nd Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2011.03.30 18:36:00 -
[18]
Not to break up this fascinating discussion, but...
The simple facts are:
1. Salvage works the way it does because CCP wants it that way. 2. As shown above, when asked multiple devs have confirmed that salvage is working as intended.
Avoiding ninja salvaging is easy, if you're willing to put in the effort to do so. There is no need to have ninja salvaging flag the salvager. and, frankly, I thin kyou would be very, VERY unhappy with the results if CCP changed it. I can almost guarantee a flood of threads on the forums the next day begging them to roll the change (from all the mission runners who have lost multi billion ISK ships taking potshots at ninja salvagers).
Sometimes the cure really is worse than the disease. --Vel
Originally by: Blacksquirrel
This is EVE. PVE can happen anywhere at anytime. Be prepared.
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Johnny Lou
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Posted - 2011.03.30 18:50:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Johnny Lou Here's one for you: assumption
So why do you want to change something that's not a problem?
Just because ccp makes a decision doesn't mean it's always the smart one or that it never gets out of date.
tbh, I'd rather see ccp implement more scram frigs that warp in and scram any ship that comes after the initial ship.
your turn: Why do you want to keep it? (please keep in mind that the current implementation was done before the "abandon wrecks" option was introduced)
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.30 18:58:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Johnny Lou Just because ccp makes a decision doesn't mean it's always the smart one or that it never gets out of date.
Agreed. Wrecks should be completely free for all (to loot, tractor, salvage, blow up, whathaveyou) ù no ownership at all. Mission runners would no longer have anything to complain about and they make more than enough ISK as it is. The decision CCP made to include the loot as part of the rewards is outdated.
It would also remove the need for an "abandon wreck" option. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
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Johnny Lou
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Posted - 2011.03.30 19:08:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Johnny Lou Just because ccp makes a decision doesn't mean it's always the smart one or that it never gets out of date.
Agreed. Wrecks should be completely free for all (to loot, tractor, salvage, blow up, whathaveyou) ù no ownership at all. Mission runners would no longer have anything to complain about and they make more than enough ISK as it is. The decision CCP made to include the loot as part of the rewards is outdated.
It would also remove the need for an "abandon wreck" option.
ONLY if a group of ships warps in and scrams and attacks anyone and everyone who comes in after the first ship.
So, Everyone who comes in the room gets scrammed and aggro.
If you bring help in the mission they'd better be ready to fight, if you bring a salvage ship you'd better be ready to defend it, if you warp to someone running a mission to salvage you'd better be ready to stand your ground and fight in order to get to that wreck.
Salvaging without aggro should only be possible when all npc's in the room are dead.
No one should be able to salvage unchallenged (and I don't mean a race to see who is the faster salvager)
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Hepzibah Mariana
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2011.03.30 19:09:00 -
[22]
People like to complain about this a lot. People need to start reading the stickies and doing a tiny amount of research.
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Johnny Lou
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Posted - 2011.03.30 19:14:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Hepzibah Mariana People like to complain about this a lot. People need to start reading the stickies and doing a tiny amount of research.
Especially this part:
"1) This is a breeding ground for ideas. If someone has an idea, listen to it. If you don't like it, think about why. Constructive feedback is good. Posting "That's an awful idea," is not constructive."
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.30 19:20:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Johnny Lou Salvaging without aggro should only be possible when all npc's in the room are dead.
Why?
Oh, and why do you want to change something that's not a problem?
Quote: No one should be able to salvage unchallenged
So make wrecks free for all. Solves everything. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Johnny Lou
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Posted - 2011.03.30 19:32:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Johnny Lou Salvaging without aggro should only be possible when all npc's in the room are dead.
Why?
Oh, and why do you want to change something that's not a problem?
Quote: No one should be able to salvage unchallenged
So make wrecks free for all. Solves everything.
For a few minutes I actually thought you might be able to say something smart for a change.. Obviously that's not going to happen.
oh well..
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.30 19:36:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Johnny Lou For a few minutes I actually thought you might be able to say something smart for a change.. Obviously that's not going to happen.
So you cannot think of a single reason why it should change (otherwise, you would obviously have presented it, rather than going for the ad hominem).
Well, as long as we're clear on that. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Johnny Lou
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Posted - 2011.03.30 19:48:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Tippia So you cannot think of a single reason why it should change (otherwise, you would obviously have presented it, rather than going for the ad hominem).
Well, as long as we're clear on that.
Actually, I can.
I just don't like the way you ask and especially the way you twist my words.
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Miss Krunk
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Posted - 2011.03.31 02:02:00 -
[28]
Originally by: ShahFluffers Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."
Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.
Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.
Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.
Per CCP Incognito : Originally by: CCP Incognito Had a chat with some designers this evening. Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private. They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.
(These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)
Everyone knows CCP's policy on wrecks, but most people think it is flat out ridiculous. If wrecks are the wrecks are not owned, then why can't everyone tractor them instead of just the guy who killed it. The reason, the wreck belongs to the guy that made it.
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Corina's Bodyguard
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Posted - 2011.03.31 02:13:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Corina''s Bodyguard on 31/03/2011 02:13:39 The only reason a person cannot tractor a wreck that is "owned" by someone else is that the container in the wreck (not the possible salvage that may come from it) is "owned" by the mission runner (or ratter or whatever). That system was put in place to prevent jet can miners from being grieved by people tractoring their cans, and to the server, a wreck is just a different type of can.
Edit: would like it if CCP fixed that though. I enter a complex with a bunch of wrecks, and I have to slowboat it to all of them (because most players don't bother to abandon).
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.31 04:17:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Miss Krunk Everyone knows CCP's policy on wrecks, but most people think it is flat out ridiculous.
If they do, it's because they don't understand the design (and/or because they're greedy and want stuff for free). Their ignorance is not a reason to change it.
The design is very simple, and it shouldn't be that hard for them to understand: salvaging is its own means of income. It is not a part of mission running. That's why there's roughly zero overlap in requirements for the two activities. Running missions does not give you rights to the salvage because what you're doing is running missions ù not salvaging. To gain the rights to the salvage, you have to salvage.
Quote: If wrecks are the wrecks are not owned, then why can't everyone tractor them instead of just the guy who killed it.
Because they contain loot cans that belong to whomever killed the ship. This could easily be fixed by, say, removing loot as part of the rewards for killing rats, thus making all wrecks completely free-for-all. This will solve all problems, but somehow, it seems the complainers don't favour this very simple solution.
Alternatively, rat-killers can decide what kind of reward they want to give up in exchange for gaining exclusive salvaging rights. If they want those rights without giving anything up, they need to present a really good case why their income needs to be boosted.
This never happens ù they just want more for absolutely no useful or adequately explained reason. They certainly never explain why they should have that right rather than the ninja salvagers, when the ninjas unquestionably have put in far more effort to earn it. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
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Johnny Lou
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Posted - 2011.03.31 07:46:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Tippia the ninjas unquestionably have put in far more effort to earn it.
Actually, they haven't...
So, I guess your statement is not as unquestionable as you would like to believe.
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Tub Chil
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Posted - 2011.03.31 08:58:00 -
[32]
I used to ninja when I was few weeks old noob :D 1) go away from motsu 2) unless you mission in a marauder you really don't get more isk/hour is you salvage 3) if you rat in marauder you have a clear advantage over ninja
I still find it strange that blowing up wreck flags you
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nano bobcat
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Posted - 2011.03.31 10:33:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Imaculate Flight I pay for all the ammunition to kill ships in a mish and Ninja salvagers come in and steal it then do not get flagged for theft?!?!?!?
I pay good money for an additional account so I can salvage every ship I kill in a mish. Now I have ninja salvagers who come in a sit next to my alts Noctis and salvage everything I tractor in...that is theft...plain and simple.
I pay for two accounts, one for mish, the other for salvaging....why bother. Should I just cancel my salvage alt account???
1) having an alt does not guarantee anything in eve. Accept that. 2) you are rewarded for killing rats already, salvage is optional. 3) go doing your missions in a quiter place, if you want the salvage.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.31 11:28:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Tippia on 31/03/2011 11:30:19
Originally by: Johnny Lou Actually, they haven't...
Actually, they have ù you've just not thought about the effort required.
What does a non-ninja have to do? 1. Learn the salvaging skill. 2. Optionally learn science (for a tractor beam). 3. Optionally approach wreck (need is determined in part by step 2 above). 4. Activate salvager.
What does a ninja have to do? 1. Learn the salvaging skill. 2. Learn the probing skills. 3. Learn how to actually probe. 4. Use a combination of probes and directional scans to find a good wreck field. 5. Warp to said field (and hope it's not gone by the time (s)he gets there). 6. Approach each wreck individually (no tractoring possible). 7. Activate salvager.
So yes, the ninja has put a fair bit more effort into it. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Johnny Lou
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Posted - 2011.03.31 11:55:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 31/03/2011 11:30:19
Originally by: Johnny Lou Actually, they haven't...
Actually, they have ù you've just not thought about the effort required.
What does a non-ninja have to do? 1. Learn the salvaging skill. 2. Optionally learn science (for a tractor beam). 3. Optionally approach wreck (need is determined in part by step 2 above). 4. Activate salvager.
What does a ninja have to do? 1. Learn the salvaging skill. 2. Learn the probing skills. 3. Learn how to actually probe. 4. Use a combination of probes and directional scans to find a good wreck field. 5. Warp to said field (and hope it's not gone by the time (s)he gets there). 6. Approach each wreck individually (no tractoring possible). 7. Activate salvager.
So yes, the ninja has put a fair bit more effort into it.
Actually, the non-ninja has to
1. Train skills for decent ships 2. Train skills for decent guns 3. Train skills for drones 4. Train social skills 5. Run l1 missions to raise standings 6. Move to l2 agent 7. Run l2 missions to raise standings 8. Move to l3 agent 9. Run l3 missions to raise standings 10. Move all ships (by now you need more than one) to l4 agent 11. Run L4 missions 12. Learn the salvaging skill. 13. Learn science for tractors 14. Kill rats without loosing the ship 15. Activate salvager
OR
You can become a ninja and replace the first 14 steps with the 6 you mentioned.
You're wasting my time again. Didn't I ask you to stop that?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.31 12:20:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Johnny Lou Actually, the non-ninja has to
No. He doesn't. None of what you listed before #12 is required to be a salvager.
All of that is part of a completely different profession ù mission running ù and the effort involved in those steps is repaid through standings, bounties, LP, loot, rewards and time bonuses. Notice how salvage is not on that list?
If you want to engage in the salvaging profession ù if you want to earn your rights to the salvage ù in parallel, all you have to do is steps 1û4 delineated above.
If, on the other hand, you want to engage in the ninjasalvaging professions, you have to go through far more than those four steps. If anything, they've earned it more because they've put more effort (and risk) into it.
See, the problem is this: you falsely believe salvaging is part of mission running. It is not. Salvaging is its own separate profession and was never meant to be additional income for mission-runners. Once you come to grips with this very simple concept, it all becomes clear to you. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
De'Veldrin
Minmatar Self Preservation Society the 2nd Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2011.03.31 12:55:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 31/03/2011 12:31:00
Originally by: Johnny Lou Actually, the non-ninja has to
No. He doesn't. None of what you listed before #12 is required to be a salvager.
All of that is part of a completely different profession ù mission running ù and the effort involved in those steps is repaid through standings, bounties, LP, loot, rewards and time bonuses. Notice how salvage is not on that list?
If you want to engage in the salvaging profession ù if you want to earn your rights to the salvage ù in parallel with your mission running or ratting, all you have to do is steps 1û4 delineated above.
If, on the other hand, you want to engage in the ninjasalvaging professions, you have to go through far more than those four steps. If anything, they've earned it more because they've put more effort (and risk) into it.
See, the problem is this: you incorrectly believe salvaging to be a part of mission running. It is not. Salvaging is its own separate profession and was never meant to be additional income for mission-runners. Once you come to grips with this very simple concept, it all becomes clear to you.
You know, Tippia, I used to think you had the patience of a saint trying to explain this to these folks. Now I am starting to think you get a perverse sense of fulfillment in banging your head against a stone wall.
--Vel
Originally by: Blacksquirrel
This is EVE. PVE can happen anywhere at anytime. Be prepared.
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Synderq
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Posted - 2011.03.31 13:04:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Synderq on 31/03/2011 13:06:40
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 31/03/2011 12:31:00
Originally by: Johnny Lou Actually, the non-ninja has to
No. He doesn't. None of what you listed before #12 is required to be a salvager.
All of that is part of a completely different profession ù mission running ù and the effort involved in those steps is repaid through standings, bounties, LP, loot, rewards and time bonuses. Notice how salvage is not on that list?
If you want to engage in the salvaging profession ù if you want to earn your rights to the salvage ù in parallel with your mission running or ratting, all you have to do is steps 1û4 delineated above.
If, on the other hand, you want to engage in the ninjasalvaging professions, you have to go through far more than those four steps. If anything, they've earned it more because they've put more effort (and risk) into it.
See, the problem is this: you incorrectly believe salvaging to be a part of mission running. It is not. Salvaging is its own separate profession and was never meant to be additional income for mission-runners. Once you come to grips with this very simple concept, it all becomes clear to you.
If salvaging really was designed as a profession why do you have to probe out the mission runner and not the salvage itself? If you're a ninja salvager why can you not tractor in the salvage? Your response where you stated it was because it contains the loot can for the mission runner doesn't add up because the ninja salvager could just ignore the loot can after salvaging the wreck. CCP's statements are words to the effect of "its working as designed" but you can't help feel that is a total cop-out and is more of a consequence of their design rather than through actual intent. If they were going to implement salvaging as a profession would they intentially choose a method which, as i'm sure your well aware despite being fastidious in your response, would be considered griefing in any other game? And that it is too much hassle for them to fix.
Note: Should say I don't really have a problem with ninja salvagers and I don't think it is something that is pervasive throughout the game, I just don't really buy CCP's response.
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shadowace00007
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Posted - 2011.03.31 13:09:00 -
[39]
Let me introduce you to the answer to your problem.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Vargur http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Kronos http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Paladin http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Golem
Ninja's. in short they do nothing wrong. The problem is your not cleaning the site out fast enough or your ship sig is to large. from what it sounds like its abit of both. none the less, if you use one of the ships designed to do missions. then you wont have this problem because most ninjas wont mess with you if your salvaging as your going.
To sum it up. use the right ship for the right job.
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Johnny Lou
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Posted - 2011.03.31 13:36:00 -
[40]
Originally by: shadowace00007 Let me introduce you to the answer to your problem.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Vargur http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Kronos http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Paladin http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Golem
To sum it up. use the right ship for the right job.
Sadly, there isn't a drone boat marauder. And there's a very good chance everyone will start screaming "we have noctis, stop wasting dev's time with this" if anyone tries to suggest one
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shadowace00007
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Posted - 2011.03.31 13:43:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Johnny Lou
Originally by: shadowace00007 Let me introduce you to the answer to your problem.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Vargur http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Kronos http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Paladin http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Golem
To sum it up. use the right ship for the right job.
Sadly, there isn't a drone boat marauder. And there's a very good chance everyone will start screaming "we have noctis, stop wasting dev's time with this" if anyone tries to suggest one
Be a man and stop making your drones do all the work =) also drone boat mission runners have no say in this matter. I say again "your taking to long" Drones do not clear missions out quickly. you need to use a combo of guns and drones to go threw them fast.
I used to ninja salvage and when ever I scan down domi's I would scan 2 or three more people down and they would STILL be in the first room.
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Johnny Lou
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Posted - 2011.03.31 14:04:00 -
[42]
Originally by: shadowace00007
Be a man and stop making your drones do all the work =) also drone boat mission runners have no say in this matter. I say again "your taking to long" Drones do not clear missions out quickly. you need to use a combo of guns and drones to go threw them fast.
I used to ninja salvage and when ever I scan down domi's I would scan 2 or three more people down and they would STILL be in the first room.
I like the drone style game play (a good tank that takes it's time to get the job done). How fast drones finish a mission is not an issue for me, I'm in no rush.. If I was, I'd choose a different ship . Still, the tractor bonus, some extra cap (for salvagers and tractors) and maybe a few extra highslots (but no extra turret/launchers hardpoints) would be nice.
And, I enjoy having my "minions" do the "dirty work" for me
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Emperor Salazar
Caldari Remote Soviet Industries
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Posted - 2011.03.31 14:23:00 -
[43]
wtf is a mish
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.31 18:07:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Synderq If salvaging really was designed as a profession why do you have to probe out the mission runner and not the salvage itself?
That's a very good question, and I agree that this is something that needs to be fixed ù it's rather silly that all these abandoned wreck fields cannot be reached by any means by those who are actually intended to come and munch on them.
From what I understand, it was basically technical limitations in the scanning system: supposedly they don't want to flag a wreck as a scannable object because the server will throw a fit when umptyeleven scannable objects show up in such a tight cluster (of course, the new scanning system and on-grid scanning kind of belies this argument), and they didn't have any good way to transform a whole wreck cloud into a single scannable object to get around that.
Quote: If you're a ninja salvager why can you not tractor in the salvage?
Because the salvage is contained in the wreck; the wreck also contains the (owned) can. It is currently not possible to separate the two, so moving one forcibly entails moving the other ù and since you're not allowed to move other people's stuff (in this case the can), you can't move the wreck either.
Note that I talk about the wreck, not the salvage ù the salvage doesn't exist until you've had that successful salvager cycle.
Quote: I just don't really buy CCP's response.
I do, mainly because I'm fully aware how lazy they are about fixing these niggling little things. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.03.31 20:17:00 -
[45]
Oh, I forgotà Originally by: De'Veldrin You know, Tippia, I used to think you had the patience of a saint trying to explain this to these folks. Now I am starting to think you get a perverse sense of fulfillment in banging your head against a stone wall.
àI work at a defence college. I teach political science to grunts and write reports and research papers to explain the need for emergency and disaster preparedness and management for politicians.
Call it a work injuryà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
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Posted - 2011.03.31 20:41:00 -
[46]
If you could tractor any wreck, then you could essentially grief a mission runner by pulling his loot away from him.
If you could scan down wrecks, you could scan down anyone's mission in low-sec/null-sec, as well as plex escalations. This would be a huge hit to low-sec PvE'ers, and many null-sec carebears would cry out too...
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2011.04.01 06:08:00 -
[47]
Same ****, different day. Everyone knows ninja salvaging is theft. CCP likes the drama though, so won't click the little box that flags for it. Why they call thier game hard core and then coddle the grieffers is beyond me. If you wanna play the "bad guy" you better learn to fight. Not so in Eve though.
Welcome to hardcore gaming.
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Arden Elenduil
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2011.04.01 08:01:00 -
[48]
They're not the only ones that enjoy the dramah, rage and tears (I fuel my ship with them)
That said, if you're complaining about people not playing the way you like it, Eve is not for you. Hello Kitty is that way ->
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Hayaishi
Gallente Aperture Harmonics
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Posted - 2011.04.01 08:07:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Arden Elenduil They're not the only ones that enjoy the dramah, rage and tears (I fuel my ship with them)
That said, if you're complaining about people not playing the way you like it, Eve is not for you. Hello Kitty is that way -> Here
^ fix'd
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Rek Seven
Gallente Guy Fawkes Trust Fund
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Posted - 2011.04.01 08:37:00 -
[50]
You pay for an additional account who's sole purpose is to salvage? Yeah, you should cancel that account.
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Johnny Lou
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Posted - 2011.04.01 09:32:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 31/03/2011 12:31:00
Originally by: Johnny Lou Actually, the non-ninja has to
No. He doesn't. None of what you listed before #12 is required to be a salvager.
Now you're just embarrassing yourself.
Stop posting and go back to school. At least until you stop believing in fairy tales and unicorns and l4 mission wrecks that appear in EVE through... "mmmmagic!"... There's no such thing, OK
If you don't believe me, start the game, go in a system that has been uninhabited for the past 4 hours and spend around 6 hours in that system ALONE using only your super duper "combination of probes and directional scans to find a good wreck field" from ships that were l4 mission NPC's before they exploded and then come back and let us know how many wrecks you found. OK?
Whatever you salvage from those wrecks I will double it, I promise.
Run along now, stop bothering these nice folks here. Go on, shoo.
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.04.01 10:13:00 -
[52]
Mission runners still think the game revolves around them... lol
The only reason CCP decided to allow salvaging in missions was so players who specialize in salvage would have something to do. Marauders are the exception, not the rule.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
Swynet
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Posted - 2011.04.01 11:12:00 -
[53]
Why don't you loot at it like some fun or cat/rat game?
Let it come in and start salvage your stuff, wait until he's at the good point where new spawn comes up, kill the trigger.
Profit (had a lot of sisters probes/probe launchers/T2 salvage mods, it's really awesome)
Ninjas are there to help you go faster between missions, get more LP's and eventually give you their stuff for free, why are you angry? ________________________________________________
Originally by: Goose99 In EVE, PVE can happen anywhere, anytime. Whenever you undock, you subject yourself to involuntary PVE.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.04.01 12:56:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Johnny Lou Now you're just embarrassing yourself.
So tell me again: why do you need to have standing to be a salvager?
Quote: If you don't believe me, start the game, go in a system that has been uninhabited for the past 4 hours and spend around 6 hours in that system ALONE using only your super duper "combination of probes and directional scans to find a good wreck field"
Why would I do that? Then I wouldn't be a salvager (or, wellà not a particularly smart one), now would I? If I go to salvage where there is no salvage and then I get no salvage, what does this prove (apart from that the system in question is not a good place to be as a salvager)?
You see, you still incorrectly believe salvaging to be a part of mission running. It is not. Salvaging is its own separate profession and was never meant to be additional income for mission-runners. Why is this very simple concept so hard for you to grasp?
A part of that profession is to find salvage. You can do this in numerous ways. You can scan it out; you can lie in wait for it; you can tag along with other people. None of these ways require you to have the slightest shred of standings. If you want to create wrecks by yourself so that you can do engage in two professions at once, then yes, you might need some, but not for the salvaging part ù only if you want to create those wrecks through mission-running. But again: the salvaging profession is separate from the mission-running profession and beyond not being hunted by faction police, standings are entirely irrelevant to the salvaging profession.
So yes, as a salvager, your steps 1û11 are 100% irrelevant. What you're describing there is a mission-runner, which is a completely different thing.
If you don't want to see them as different things, just because you can do both at once, then I'd like to add the following steps to my ninja salvager list:- You need to sink some 7 million SP into trading skills (to play the market at the same time as you ninja).
- You need to have save up some 30-40bn in assets (to be an effective market player).
- You need to be able to fly at least one race worth of HACs, HICs, Recons, battleships, and logistics, and all the support skills that comes with them (for when the mission-runners take revenge).
- You need to sink some 14+ million SP into Science & Industry (to do manufacturing and research while you salvage).
- You need to be able to fly freighters ù preferably even jump freighters (to move all that salvage, all the market goods and all the production materials around).
àaaaaall of that is stuff you have to be able to do to be a ninja salvager, according to you, because all of those are things you can do at the same time as you salvage (much like how you think you need to be a mission-runner to be a non-ninja just because you can do both at once). Oh, and obviously, you need a lot of standing as well to get your POS plantedà
àso as you can see, being a ninja-salvager is a lot of effort ù a lot more than being a mission-running salvager. So even with kind of logic, the ninja still puts more effort into it and thus, if anything, is more worthy of the salvage.
Quote: Run along now, stop bothering these nice folks here. Go on, shoo.
I haven't bothered any nice folks here, only you. Mainly because you cannot understand this very very very very simple thing: salvaging is not the same thing as mission-running.
Let me repeat that: salvaging is not the same thing as misison-running.
What is required for one is not required for the other. Stop mixing them up, or your ideas will fall on deaf ears because they simply don't apply to this game ù a game, I might add, where salvaging is not the same thing as misison-running. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
De'Veldrin
Minmatar Self Preservation Society the 2nd Dead Terrorists
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Posted - 2011.04.01 15:07:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Tippia Oh, I forgotà Originally by: De'Veldrin You know, Tippia, I used to think you had the patience of a saint trying to explain this to these folks. Now I am starting to think you get a perverse sense of fulfillment in banging your head against a stone wall.
àI work at a defence college. I teach political science to grunts and write reports and research papers to explain the need for emergency and disaster preparedness and management for politicians.
Call it a work injuryà
LOL. You should put in for workman's compensation. You've definitely been injured on the job. --Vel
Originally by: Blacksquirrel
This is EVE. PVE can happen anywhere at anytime. Be prepared.
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Brya Domani
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Posted - 2011.04.01 15:30:00 -
[56]
I would like to apologize ahead of time if the following is noobish:
I agree with Flight in that ninja salvagers are scum (although I am one of them). I also agree with 90% of what Tippia is saying. Game mechanic or not something needs to be addressed here. Creating an alt for 'legal' salvage or ninja salvage is a players choice. It bothers me to train to earn my salvage only to have it 'stolen'.
With that being said would it make sense to make the salvagers (mods) act like tractor beams? If me and a corppie are missioning we cannot tractor the same wreck, it is basically who gets target lock first. Have the salvagers work the same, if the wreck is held by a tractor beam then only that person can salvage. It would make the ninjas have to 'work' for the salvage instead of sitting by the Noctis and waiting for it to pull everything in. Just my two cents.
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Johnny Lou
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Posted - 2011.04.02 10:49:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Tippia Let me repeat that: salvaging is not the same thing as misison-running.
I have no idea why you would want to repeat that, especially since I never said it was
Originally by: Tippia I haven't bothered any nice folks here, only you.
Oh, don't be silly...
To me you're not a bother; more like a pet I get to kick every once in a while just to see it jump it's a lot of fun. (I can see why you like trolling so much)
Normally, I prefer civilized and constructive conversations but, since you've proven more than once that you're incapable of doing that, I'll settle for giving you a light kick when I have the time and then just sit back and watch you jump.
I especially enjoyed the part where you mentioned that you teach political science... That's not what I meant when I said "go back to school" But it does explain why your logic is such a mess and why you are so good at twisting words; you are obviously very good at it so why don't you stick to that and leave logic to the rest of us. OK
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Hayaishi
Gallente Aperture Harmonics
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Posted - 2011.04.02 10:55:00 -
[58]
ITT: People get off topic and decide it is more fun to compare apples and oranges than actually talk about the topic at hand.
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Zelda Wei
Caldari New Horizon Trade Exchange
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Posted - 2011.04.02 11:47:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Imaculate Flight I pay for all the ammunition to kill ships in a mish and Ninja salvagers come in and steal it then do not get flagged for theft?!?!?!?
I pay good money for an additional account so I can salvage every ship I kill in a mish. Now I have ninja salvagers who come in a sit next to my alts Noctis and salvage everything I tractor in...that is theft...plain and simple.
I pay for two accounts, one for mish, the other for salvaging....why bother. Should I just cancel my salvage alt account???
Your argument is hindered by your illiteracy.
Please return once you have finished school.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.04.02 13:11:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Johnny Lou I have no idea why you would want to repeat that, especially since I never said it was
Yes you did. By adding points 1û11 on your list of what salvagers need to do, that's exactly what you did.
And you agree with me, since you have no argument to the contrary and have to resort to ad hominems instead. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
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CCP StevieSG
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Posted - 2011.04.02 14:06:00 -
[61]
Please keep comments constructive and on topic. Please note that personal attacks can lead to a warning or ban.
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Johnny Lou
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Posted - 2011.04.02 15:44:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Johnny Lou I have no idea why you would want to repeat that, especially since I never said it was
Yes you did. By adding points 1û11 on your list of what salvagers need to do, that's exactly what you did.
1-11 are for l4 mission running and 1-15 are for l4 mission NPC salvage As you can see, I never claimed they were the same.
Originally by: Tippia
And you agree with me, since you have no argument to the contrary
that is an argument from ignorance.
Originally by: Tippia and have to resort to ad hominems instead.
which is exactly what you did here:
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 30/03/2011 17:16:00
Originally by: Johnny Lou here's an idea: only abandoned wrecks should be allowed to be salvaged by anyone and once the owner leaves the room all wrecks become abandoned.
Better idea: earn your salvage like everyone else and stop complaining about how the game doesn't give you stuff for free.
Subtle, but still applies. By the way, that is also a spotlight fallacy and can be considered an appeal to ridicule (red herring) as well.
I presented an alternative in a civilized manner, you decided to step over the lines, I said "two can play that game" (ad hominem tu quoque).
But, since CCP decided to step in, I will stop here. cya.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.04.02 22:17:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Johnny Lou 1-11 are for l4 mission running
In other words, they are of no relevant to salvaging.
So again: why does a salvager need standing?
Quote: that is an argument from ignorance.
So provide an argument.
Quote: Subtle, but still applies.
Nope. Saying that you are complaining is not arguing the man, but the claim ù in this case that you provide no argument for why the change is needed.
Quote: I presented an alternative in a civilized manner
You presented an alternative but no reasoning for why it was needed (or, indeed, for why the original idea was needed). ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2011.04.03 00:42:00 -
[64]
Salvaging was intended to be a MINI profession. It was never intended to be a stand alone. That's straight from the devs when they were introducing it. So why is ninja salvaging so profitable? It is a stand alone profession.
Originally by: Tippia You see, you still incorrectly believe salvaging to be a part of mission running. It is not. Salvaging is its own separate profession and was never meant to be additional income for mission-runners. Why is this very simple concept so hard for you to grasp?
Really? So how long have you been playing? I've got over 5 years under my belt. I read the dev blogs that pretained salvaging as they came out. They purposely nerfed bounties before they added salvage and wrecks.
---------------- Reported by CCP Oveur | 2007.03.19 18:46:07 "You're taking away our ISK! We don't make that much ISK!
Understandably percieved so based on the listing in the last blog so let's clarify that also. Direct ISK into your wallet as bounty from NPCs are not the way we reward you for the high level agent missions.
You can still make (tons) of ISK, but it's in the form of materials, tools, ship loot drop, salvaging, technology (hacking). You now have the choice to either capitalize on these items and make them worth more to other players by using the mini-professions or simply sell directly the stuff to other players.
The only difference is that we're not creating ISK out of thin air from CONCORD (Infusion) but rather giving you perishable items (Sink) which other players pay you for." -----------------
Also
--------------- Reported by CCP Oveur | 2006.09.26 12:58:59 "We also wanted to improve loot in general, so we finally went ahead and exchanged that pristine can that drops for a proper wrecked ship. That shipwreck is now salvage-able, where you will find scraps of components required to create Rigs, the new ship upgrades which currently have a heavy defensive focus." --------------
Salvage was most certainly meant to be extra income. And until they changed it so you could salvage a wreck without first emptying it, you did get flagged for salvaging other peoples wreck fields.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2011.04.03 00:46:00 -
[65]
The reason for the change was too many people cried that the "loot" was crap and they didn't want to collect it to get the salvage. Null sec ratters just wanted the bouties and the salvage. The side effect was opening the door for ninja. Not a problem in null, but down right annoying and immersion breaking in high sec. I can see concord not caring about theft, but protecting them? What?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.04.03 01:06:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Tippia on 03/04/2011 01:15:56
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass "You can still make (tons) of ISK, but it's in the form of materials, tools, ship loot drop, salvaging, technology (hacking). You now have the choice to either capitalize on these items and make them worth more to other players by using the mini-professions or simply sell directly the stuff to other players."
àin other words, he's talking about the exploration sites where you actually use salvaging and hacking and where you can find "tools" and "technology".
You'll also note that of the mission changes he referred to, only one ever happened (the introduction of L5s). The whole statement about how "direct ISK into your wallet as bounty from NPCs are not the way we reward you for the high level agent missions" is plain false for L1s through L4s, and rather refers to the introduction of L5s, L6s, and L7 missionsà and we all know how much the exploration skills are needed in L5s (which is all we got, and there, the rewards come in form of tags and LP, not mini-profession loot). So no, it was not meant as extra income for mission runners in the end. Once we get those L7s, you might have a point.
Moreover, that blog was to present possible changes for Rev2, whereas salvaging had already been introduced half a year earlier in Rev1. Looking at possible, potential (but never realised) purposes that they were thinking about maybe implementing in addition to the original purpose tells us nothing about what that original purpose was.
Compare that to this: Originally by: CCP Prism X If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further.
àwhich refers to the actual situation as it came to be implemented.
Quote: Salvage was most certainly meant to be extra income.
Yes, but not for mission runners; it's extra income for salvagers, which is yet another profession that you can run alongside your other activities. This is trivially shown by the fact that you can salvage without running missions and you can run missions without salvaging. The two are completely separable.
Putting it together with mission running and claiming that you need standing or fancy ships to do it would be like saying that you need Research Program Management to run missions, because that's another thing you can do in parallel. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2011.04.03 01:36:00 -
[67]
It was meant to be extra income to make up for nerfed bounties. Ratter or mission runner. It was never intended to be the sole income of griefers.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2011.04.03 01:40:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 03/04/2011 01:45:47
Exploratin is a totally different subject. Probe-able sites were around long be before salvage or wrecks. They didn't add pure salvage sites till way after salvage.
Where did I ever say anything about standing or fancy ships? Did you even read my post? Cookie cutter responces much?
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.04.03 01:50:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Tippia on 03/04/2011 01:52:35
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass It was meant to be extra income to make up for nerfed bounties. Ratter or mission runner. It was never intended to be the sole income of griefers.
Could you dig out a pre-revelations dev blog that states this?
Quote: It was never intended to be the sole income of griefers.
Good thing that it isn't, then.
Quote: Where did I ever say anything about standing or fancy ships? Did you even read my post? Cookie cutter responces much?
Read the entire thread ù in particular the post(s) that you responded to and which you wanted to argue against. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2011.04.03 01:53:00 -
[70]
They've nerfed bouties on at least three seperate occasions. Ask anyone who's played since about '04. I started in early '06. Inflation was a huge concern for the first four years or so.
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Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2011.04.03 01:57:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Tippia Read the entire thread ù in particular the post(s) that you responded to and which you wanted to argue against.
I have. I've made two posts. One was just a general comment on the entire situation. The other was to point out that salvage was in fact meant to be loot and until later changes to mechanics was basically owned by whoever created the wreck.
So where did I ever mention fancy ships or standings? I maintain you are just throwing out pre-recorded rebuttles that don't even apply.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.04.03 02:12:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass They've nerfed bouties on at least three seperate occasions. Ask anyone who's played since about '04. I started in early '06. Inflation was a huge concern for the first four years or so.
Yes? So where (and when) did they state that salvage was intended as a reward for mission runners to counteract reduced bounties?
Quote: Mission running is a full on profession. So is ratting. Ask the guys in null. Salvaging is not.
Yeeeeahà except that (to quote CCP SoniClover) "the simple truth of what mini-professions are: they enable players, in one way or another, to create items not otherwise accessible."
àsounds very much like something you could make a career out of.
Quote: Exploratin is a totally different subject. Probe-able sites were around long be before salvage or wrecks. They didn't add pure salvage sites till way after salvage.
It's not a totally different subject since they were introduced instead of the changes you pointed to as proof that salvage was meant to be a mission reward (it wasn't, because those missions were never implemented).
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass So where did I ever mention fancy ships or standings? I maintain you are just throwing out pre-recorded rebuttles that don't even apply.
Again: read the post(s) you responded to and wanted to argue against. That post was a rebuttal to the notion that you needed standings and fancy ships to be a salvager. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2011.04.03 02:52:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Tippia Again: read the post(s) you responded to and wanted to argue against. That post was a rebuttal to the notion that you needed standings and fancy ships to be a salvager.
I responded to one point in one post. Reading comprehention ftw.
I like to get straight to the point. You, not so much it seems. You teach college you say? Do you muddy the water with irrelevent details when giving lectures as well?
I'll get back to you on the rest, I've real life to attend to.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.04.03 03:19:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass I responded to one point in one post.
Yes, the point where I said that mission-running and salvaging were separate activities, in response to a claim that salvaging required fancy ships and standings. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki |
Fullmetal Jackass
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Posted - 2011.04.03 09:21:00 -
[75]
Nope try again:
Originally by: Tippia You see, you still incorrectly believe salvaging to be a part of mission running. It is not. Salvaging is its own separate profession and was never meant to be additional income for mission-runners. Why is this very simple concept so hard for you to grasp?
Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Salvage was most certainly meant to be extra income...
I also included potions of 2 seperate dev blogs to support this. No mention what so ever of fancy ships or standing.
Pass the crack please. I'd like some of whatever you're smokin'.
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Vancali
Minmatar Black Moon Privateers
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Posted - 2011.04.04 02:07:00 -
[76]
I think that most people have forgotten the main aspect of this. Time. It takes time to take down a room of 40+ rats. Even with my Sentry IIs blasting away at optimal and me firing off my missiles, it could take 20-30 minutes for one pocket.
In comes the ninja who had to spend a few minutes to scan for me and warp to me. Starts to take my wrecks and usually has some ECM going or can jump out quickly. It takes time to do the mission. Real life time. This is a game, not a job. I really don't want to spend my free time having a large portion of my reward being taken by someone who hasn't earned it.
Yes, the salvage is a part of the reward. Don't try and separate the wreck from the mission. If the mission never happened, the wreck wouldn't be there. I can easily make 10+ mil on loot alone. The mission reward is what, 2 mil? Bounties make up half of the reward, unless you are running missions against navy ships, in which case, all of your reward is in the tags. Most of those defending this are more than likely the ones who are doing the pirating.
Point being, I play the game for fun. This is hardly carebearing. I'm not asking that you somehow remove pirates from 0.4 or that you ban people from salvaging from wrecks you find in complexes, belts, or other. Ninja salvaging in a mission is a little overboard. I have better ways of wasting my time then in aggravation. No, I'm not leaving. No you can't have my stuff. _______________________________________ This sig took me 10 seconds to make. =p |
Imigo Montoya
Hysterically Unforgiving Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2011.04.04 03:18:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Vancali I think that most people have forgotten the main aspect of this. Time. It takes time to take down a room of 40+ rats. Even with my Sentry IIs blasting away at optimal and me firing off my missiles, it could take 20-30 minutes for one pocket.
In comes the ninja who had to spend a few minutes to scan for me and warp to me. Starts to take my wrecks and usually has some ECM going or can jump out quickly. It takes time to do the mission. Real life time. This is a game, not a job. I really don't want to spend my free time having a large portion of my reward being taken by someone who hasn't earned it.
Yes, the salvage is a part of the reward. Don't try and separate the wreck from the mission. If the mission never happened, the wreck wouldn't be there. I can easily make 10+ mil on loot alone. The mission reward is what, 2 mil? Bounties make up half of the reward, unless you are running missions against navy ships, in which case, all of your reward is in the tags. Most of those defending this are more than likely the ones who are doing the pirating.
Point being, I play the game for fun. This is hardly carebearing. I'm not asking that you somehow remove pirates from 0.4 or that you ban people from salvaging from wrecks you find in complexes, belts, or other. Ninja salvaging in a mission is a little overboard. I have better ways of wasting my time then in aggravation. No, I'm not leaving. No you can't have my stuff.
I think you're confusing looting and salvaging. The OP was referring to pilots not being flagged (ie legally shootable) when they salvage one of your wrecks. Your complaint seems to be about taking loot such as tags etc which will flag a pilot so that you can shoot them.
Keep in mind that this is primarily a multi-player (largely) PvP game. Wherever you are you will have to interact in some way with other players. Sometimes that involves making the decision about whether or not to shoot them when you are legally allowed to in order to protect what is yours. If you're not so keen on the mulit-player aspect, there are plenty of single-player options out there for you (EV Nova, Freelancer, Darkstar one, WC: Privateer, Elite...), and they even lack the recurring fee aspect.
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Ooda
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Posted - 2011.04.04 12:09:00 -
[78]
I guess the missing point is:
The missionrunner has to risk his ship to get the chance on Salvage. The Ninjasalvager is using the missionrunner to get that salvage whithout any risk. (Unless u have special missions like EA 1/5 :D)
NPC ships should have a chance to aggro salvaging ships on every salvaging cycle. Everyone would have a risk. At the moment the only one with the risk to loose something is the missionrunner. And that's not fair.
Oh, before you try to argue " But Salvage is different to loot ": Without missionrunner blowing them up for loot, there would be no salvage. You can't seperate this things with a logical argument.
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Arden Elenduil
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2011.04.04 13:02:00 -
[79]
Just a small FYI, If the ninja is even halfway decent about what he's doing, rat aggro won't do **** anyway. Unless it's web/scramming frigates that get within 10km's, a ninja just won't die. I've had full pocket aggro in my frigate (at the time, it was about 10 battleships and a bunch of random cruisers/BC), and it has exactly 0 effect on me.
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nano bobcat
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Posted - 2011.04.04 13:38:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Ooda And that's not fair.
eve was supposed to be fair??
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Imaculate Flight
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Posted - 2011.04.04 18:48:00 -
[81]
My point still stands. I pay RL money for two toons. I use one to kill NCP's, I use the other primarily for salvaging the wrecks my main toon pops.
Why is it that a salvage ninja can fly in and park next to my Noctis and salvage the ships I drag to it before I can do it...and it not be theft?
I kill it, I tractor it so I can TRY to salvage it and they get to sit there and leach off of my hard work...is this a welfare program for those who refuse to work and create there own wrecks to salvage.
All I ask is that they be given a warning that their actions may be considered as theft and that they risk retaliation by their actions. If they accept the warning, just like in cargo theft situations, then aggro starts....let us players who created the wreck decide to accept the risk of popping their cheap ship....we may loose out Tengu's..but the choice was ours anyway...tough luck.
Just give us that option to defend our wrecks; be it loot or salvage.
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Vancali
Minmatar Black Moon Privateers
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Posted - 2011.04.04 20:33:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Ooda Oh, before you try to argue " But Salvage is different to loot ": Without missionrunner blowing them up for loot, there would be no salvage. You can't seperate this things with a logical argument.
Agreed. I made that point in my thread. Regardless of how it was intended, things can change.
Originally by: nano bobcat
Originally by: Ooda And that's not fair.
eve was supposed to be fair??
A better word would have been balanced. Every game needs it. Fair? This game is too much like RL (without true consequences) to be fair.
Originally by: Imaculate Flight My point still stands. I pay RL money for two toons. I use one to kill NCP's, I use the other primarily for salvaging the wrecks my main toon pops.
Why is it that a salvage ninja can fly in and park next to my Noctis and salvage the ships I drag to it before I can do it...and it not be theft?
I kill it, I tractor it so I can TRY to salvage it and they get to sit there and leach off of my hard work...is this a welfare program for those who refuse to work and create there own wrecks to salvage.
All I ask is that they be given a warning that their actions may be considered as theft and that they risk retaliation by their actions. If they accept the warning, just like in cargo theft situations, then aggro starts....let us players who created the wreck decide to accept the risk of popping their cheap ship....we may loose out Tengu's..but the choice was ours anyway...tough luck.
Just give us that option to defend our wrecks; be it loot or salvage.
This is where the disconnect is coming from between devs and certain players. The salvage wouldn't be there without the person who shot it down just like the can. The mere fact that the can (which is the property of the one who killed the ship) won't spawn until the wreck is salvaged is further proof that the salvage should belong to the one who popped the NPC. It is simple logical progression. Therefore, if someone salvages a wreck that isn't theirs, it SHOULD flag them as red to the owner. _______________________________________ This sig took me 5 seconds to make. =p |
Corina's Bodyguard
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Posted - 2011.04.04 20:44:00 -
[83]
If salvaging other peoples wrecks should be flagable, then all mission runners and ratters should be required to salvage or abandoned wrecks at all times. And if they fail to do so, they lose sec status as if they had shot a pod.
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Vancali
Minmatar Black Moon Privateers
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Posted - 2011.04.04 21:33:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Corina's Bodyguard If salvaging other peoples wrecks should be flagable, then all mission runners and ratters should be required to salvage or abandoned wrecks at all times. And if they fail to do so, they lose sec status as if they had shot a pod.
Well, that makes no sense. Better would be to make it public after a certain amount of time. 20-30 minutes sound like fair game? That would give them first chance, the mission would still be running. That is if it were a lv 4. Don't know why people would bother to ninja a lv 2. _______________________________________ This sig took me 5 seconds to make. =p |
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