NPCs that new players meet should probably not pod, I'm mostly thinking about faction navies and CONCORD podding criminals, and high-end PVE.

Also what Frying Doom said, it really is time fix the broken empire rat AI and make PVE more realistic.

I agree completely the article was horseshit from start to finish.

The Null bears really should stop calling hi-sec dwellers risk adverse when they are more risk adverse than the Null sec dwellers.

I deliberately chose not to reference that site.

And Large Null sec alliances have a ship replacement program.
So does this not make the members of those Alliances more risk adverse than those in alliances without this type of program?

Generally I find less slant and better info on EvE News 24

Hmm maybe you need to loose the rose coloured glasses?

Strange, you must not have read the original post. I do not believe all of EvE should suffer because those who choose to live in Null in a PvP role.

As I said not really worth the read.

No I believe you were doing the crying about implants and how unfair it is that Null PvP pilots don't want to use them.

If you remove the learning implants then would you suggest giving everyone a boost to their base attributes by 4-5 points to make up for the lack of implant bonus?

So any gain for those people who do not die often or do not choose to PvP would be lost.

Actually I have no implants on the clone I mostly use, this would be why Battle Clinic estimates my SP at 30 million more than it is.

But I do not believe everyone else should loose out because I decided I don't want to lose implants.
I am in an area that is riskier than Hi-sec but I gain rewards in the form of isk for not being in hi-sec.

Why should I be rewarded even more than I am now?

So slow down everyone's SP, allowing for a decline in the differences between biter vets and newbies?

You do realize that you're using that phrase completely wrong, yes?

Personally, I think Implants should be removed, Cybernetics should give you the permanent + to attributes, and that's that. Leave the different levels of Skill Hardwiring how they are now. Still need an isk dump for it somewhere.

It would probably impact the market a fair deal, etc, but in all aspects of the game, it improves life for basically every player.

As far as what to do with the Implants left over, there should be an option to turn them in for LP. Maybe Concord would be best. Kind of like a Space Version of 'Guns for Toys' except it's 'Implants for going towards expensive crap'.

My apologies if it seemed as though I was. In my mind there are two very distinct types of null sec player. The crybaby sheep-in-wolfs clothing type who are little more than hisec bears, and the *real* null sec players. It's no secret which type write those types of articles, or whine threads, or whatever.

No one read it.
If they want to be read, they should first fix their font size, color and type.

A few things, in no particular order:

1. Stop pretending like people are proposing this change for newbies. Everyone understands it's for nullsec guys.

6. Choices and risk are what make Eve the game it is. The people whining for total learning implant removal are no better than miners whining for mining barge changes (although in the end, the mining barge changes weren't all that bad).

Also, if you read the comments section on the article, it's pretty clear that the author is dumber than a box of rocks.

1. No, the groups aren't mutually exclusive, but it's perfectly valid to get annoyed when someone claims it's for one group when it's obviously for another (see: tax cuts and modern politics).

2. Straw man, and you obviously can't read.

3. I'm not angry, I just think you're hilariously wrong. Also, I wasn't referring to you as an idiot for coming up with/repeating the idea of learning implants, but your hilarious power trip and threats to ban people who disagree with you in the comments section of the article.

Try harder. Consider refuting some of the points that myself or others make in this thread.

1. It benefits nullsec players (disproportionately) in that they are by far the most likely to lose implants (sidenote: I would support bubble changes that would make shooting pods require SOME effort rather than lolfishinabarrel). It benefits newbies (disproportionately) as they are the least likely to have the ISK required to buy +3s and up. It is not necessarily tied to age.

2. It's not ridiculous to bring up risk and choices.
3. I don't think you'd see a massive switch to hardwirings. The people who aren't pvping because they're afraid to risk a pod with implants that gain them a few extra days/weeks a year aren't suddenly going to start spending equal or greater amounts on hardwirings. In their mind, ISK cost defines the risk, and that wouldn't go away depending on implant type. I'm not really quite sure what you're getting at here unless you think that they will decide that a 3% damage boost is a much more significant reward or something.

The problem is though, people could use this as a way to get around not having to grind a specific faction for lps, and just dump them all for loot that sells a lot better. Sure this seems fair to the marketeers whkio spent a lot of time on the implant market, but it seems kind of lke a lazy fix. Giving them in to Concord sounds more logical, and maybe for a brief while, up to conversion rate for lps from 2:1 to something like 1.5:1, just for breathing room.

1. It's not a big deal from a balance perspective, and I never said it was. I just said it was annoying that people kept claiming that it was for newbies when it's obviously nullsec powerblocs lobbying for it.

2/3. I disagree. Some would, but I think many would not replace the implants with hardwirings of a roughly equal ISK value. With the exception of some of the more basic ones (e.g. Zor's), I think most people who currently go without hardwirings would continue to do so. TL;DR I think we'll see a vast decrease in implants lost (using ISK value as a metric) which translates into more risk free PvP (regardless of whether this is a good or bad thing).

This is my last post for a while, but I'll be back ITT later.

+3 implants are 40m, nobody besides new players cares about that amount of money.

If you're afraid of losing skill training time, roll/buy a combat alt, always pick fights you can win, stop PvP'ing, or quit thinking that a few extra skill points is more important than being well practiced at PvP.

That article and this thread still haven't provided a single compelling argument to explain why there should be less risk involved in travelling, PVPing or living in Nullsec.

Flying in nullsec with expensive implants is a risk.

Removing expensive implants from the game eliminates that risk.

Logic isn't hard.

Cool strawman.

I guess I should have been more specific for you.

Flying in nullsec with expensive learning implants is an added risk.

Removing learning implants eliminates that added risk.

Try again, Andy.

Show me where I said anything even remotely resembling this. You can't, because I didn't. My argument is that removing learning implants removes the risk of losing learning implants. It does, unequivocally. There's no debating that point. What is in debate is whether or not that risk should be removed from the game, and I'm doubting that you've provided a compelling argument for why they should.

Uggh, I'm in my officer fitted Golem and can't PVP -> remove marauders?

Your rationale is lacking all rationale.

If you remove implants from the game but give the bonus, those people living in Null/lo-sec and WH space are therefore receiving the benefits of those implants without having to risk there loss.

So therefore removing the possible loss = "making null/low/WH safer"
if something is as profitable as was but with less risk attached, I would think that would almost be a text book example of safer.

Exactly the same thing as investing in a 15-billion Tengu and then staying docked because you can't afford to lose it, or buy another ship.

What large Null sec alliance does not have a ship replacement program?

Actually nothing. I came up in relation to personal risk of the player and as they are not funding the ship them selves they have no risk attached to it.

Edit: The bigger problem is that funding in alliances and corps is set the wrong way, it top down funding, not bottom up.

I am not dodging the point if an alliance has over 2000 members and can't afford a SRP then it is either new (to be honest I haven't followed that alliance) or it has something wrong with how its doing its finances or its actually padded its numbers with a lot of alts.

And again I would point them to Goonswarm or one of the other alliances.

Who forced the players to move to Nullsec?

"Oh, you're not fitting learning implants? You must be having a strong dislike to risk or an opposition to loosing them!"

I will admit I don't believe it was a coincidence this article appeared on themittens.com the day after the announcement that Dr Caymus has entered the 200.000.000 skillpoint club.

I love how this argument was lost before it even left the ground (by ground, im referring to the horrid 3rd party site from which it sprang) and yet, here it is, still with no compelling argument as to why Nullsec should have this particular risk removed beyond "aderp, cuz it halps us peeveepee, aderp".

Here's a tip for all you risk averse cry babies in Nullsec: Move to highsec, or lowsec if you can hack it, and stop crying.

You're making fools of yourself, beyond how foolish you normally look. Learning implants too expensive to replace? Don't use them. How difficult is that? Stop asking CCP to hold your hands and nerf learning implants for the rest of EVE because you can't make the retardedly simple decision to use them if you can afford it and not use them if you can't.

"BAAAAAAAAH!!! But then ours noobs suffer from slow skill training. BAAAAAAAHH!!!"

Then instruct those noobs about the risk / reward scenarios you're so fond of trotting out. Teach them how easy it is to setup jump clones (it's really ******* easy; hai Estel Arador and others). You could even, gasp, spread some of that sickening amount of wealth you hoard and do something that even Eve ******* University has figured out and provide +3 implants at a discounted rate. If Eve University can figure out a way to subsidize implants for it's noobs, i'm sure the great minds you have squirreled away in Null can come up with something similar.

LOL! Delicious tears. Thank you for that.

Keep crying about how expensive it is to fund your supercapital fleet and how unworthy your noobs are to see any of that ISK in their pockets and how hard it is for you and them to fund PVPing with learning implants and also how hard it is to setup jump clones.

Keep pretending you dont care waht Eve University does while you troll their channels day in and day out recruiting from their ranks and giving their noobs awful, terrible advice. And dont stop responding to me despite how irrelevant I am.

And, lastly, keep coming up with the terrible ******* ideas that even the people on your own terrible mouthpiece propaganda website will downvote into oblivion even before it reaches the masses of the Eve Forums. Come on, really, how pathetic do you feel when even the goons and testicls on that awful site wont back up your awful idea. You should be ashamed of yourself.

But i thought it wasnt your site? I thought it was a bastion of unbiased and balanced "news reporting" unlike the ebil bad men who neber tell the truth about goons and test and everybody else who they arent affiliated with.

Thanks for lifting the veil off that bunch of obvious lies and propaganda.

Razor is barely higher on your fictional totem pole than NPC corps, and you goddamn well know it. Stop pandering.

I've added much value to this discussion, you just don't agree with it. And, it's clearly a nullsec agenda since the people who would benefit most from removing the risk of losing learning implants while pvping are those who pvp in nullsec.

No, I listened to it alright. I just think it's a terrible idea, for many obvious reasons. Not because it was proposed by somebody from nullsec, it's just terrible in it's own right. That it benefits nullsec more than the rest of EVE is self-evident. That nullsec residents are crying for nerfs to all of EVE to benefit their style of gaming really isn't surprising as you do it all the time. That's not me being biased against nullsec, that's me being unbiased. Unlike, you know, the rag that this terrible idea came from.

LOL. I'm not calling you a rag. Rag is another word for a newspaper or, in this case, a news website. Man it's funny when people make stupid mistakes like the one you just made.

WAIT! HOLD UP! Are you trying to tell me that there are mechanics in nullsec that dont exist elsewhere in EVE and that those mechanics both make nullsec unique and increase the risk of existing in nullsec? HOLY ****! Somebody get CCP on the phone right now, we need to address this injustice.

Who said this would ONLY benefit nullsec pvp? I certainly didn't. Was it you? I might have missed it. Lord Zim maybe? No, he just puppets whatever you say. I'm so lost.

WTF is going on?

LOL, who's freaking out? You're the one who can't make up your mind about who or what I am. First I'm just an NPC alt. Then you claim I did say somehting, then you recant and say I didn't. Then you accuse me of sockpuppeting. Make up your mind.

Its when you get into the higher tiered ones that should be for those who are willing to take that chance or who can afford them.

As for who this proposal would punish, it doesn't really appear that it's intended to punish anybody, to be honest. To me, it simply seems like a plea to diminish the risks you (read: nullsec pvpers) take anytime you engage in the primary activity you moved to nullsec for. You signed up for nullsec knowing full well that it increased your risk of losing your pod and the implants you have plugged into that pod. You, I assume, were also aware of the mechanics of nullsec that were in place, specifically bubbles, that increased that risk and were willing to move to nullsec despite that increased risk. And yet, now you're pleading for CCP to remove that risk, in essence to make nullsec safer. You want the benefits of flying in Highsec or Lowsec with a head full of +5 learning implants while living in Nullsec. That, to me, is the most obvious flaw in your logic and the very reason that CCP will never, ever listen to this idea.

First, nobody is exempt from the risk of losing their implants. People get podded in highsec all the time. That was a terrible choice of an argument on your part. Second, of course the risk of losing your pod IS and SHOULD be higher in nullsec. That's one of the great things about nullsec is the increased risk.

I don't need to think that. The idea stands on it's own as clearly diminishing the risk you take by actively being engaged in nullsec. It's self-evident. What you need to be arguing is why CCP should remove that risk instead of claiming that this wouldn't reduce it when it so obviously does.

Why would I tell you that? How stupid are you? You and I both know that learning implants aren't the only ones that exist in the game. When you come up with disingenuous or obviously sarcastic "points" like this to justify your terrible idea it really does end up making you look like an idiot.

The only things that REALLY makes nullsec that much more of a danger to pods than empire are:

1.) Smartbombs/large fleet fights. These aren't going away.
2.) Bubbles.

Why are you arguing for a removal of learning implants rather than a small change to bubble mechanics?

Sending someone home early has a tactical advantage above just killing his implants.

LOL! Again, not something I've ever said. What I said, specifically, is that removing learning implants removes the risk of losing learning implants in nullsec. Since it's clear you're only interested in putting words in my mouth I think I'm done with this conversation. I'll be able to sleep well knowing full well that CCP will never, ever implement this terrible idea and you can keep on putting words in my mouth instead of forming coherent arguments of your own.

Toodles.

+1 for removing Crystals, Slaves, Snakes, etc. because nullsec pilots lose them, or something.

Couldn't be arsed reading 22 pages so here's my opinion. If you're capable of making a few billion a week in NS then you're capable of dishing out 100m for a +4 set. If you really want to keep your pods then move to HS, problem solved.

~*~Risk vs Reward~*~

168 hours in a week, -7 for downtime
20m ticks with your Vindicator (random guess) doing Forsaken Hubs without any pause or interruption (food, sleep, hostiles, etc)
You should be able to make 9.66 billion per week