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Zealot vs. Phantasm

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Patient 2428190 DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School	Posted - 2011.04.03 17:45:00 - [31] The Phantasm is in a pretty poor place these days. Even with an injector, it can be a pain to run 24pt + guns + MWD and the laughably tiny cargohold doens't help either. Slow for a cruiser hull, pretty poor agility and when all the other faction cruisers got buffed.. it got nerfed. Compared to either say a Cynabal or a Vigilant, the Phantasm is woefully lacking. ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala.
Sidus Isaacs Gallente	Posted - 2011.04.04 07:25:00 - [32] It is simple, use Phantasm when you roam in a shield gang with shield logis. Use Zealot for amror gangs. Phantasm also outclasses Zealot for solo play, since it actually hase some counter-frig measures. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
knobber Jobbler Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2011.04.04 09:45:00 - [33] Originally by: Tony SoXai Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Tony SoXai There is no cap trouble when you use a cap booster. I have not found that to be true. -Liang OK LETS SEE LIANG - Phantasm - 2 medium neuts, Y-T8 MWD, Warp disruptor, and focused medium pulses and an invuln and cap booster - cap stable at 57 % cap issues i think not. A ship using cap boosters is not cap stable. If you can run everything just using passive recharge then that's the only time you can call a ship cap stable. In the same token my basilisk is cap stable when another basilisk is giving me cap.
Aamrr	Posted - 2011.04.04 10:54:00 - [34] Originally by: Sidus Isaacs It is simple, use Phantasm when you roam in a shield gang with shield logis. Use Zealot for amror gangs. Phantasm also outclasses Zealot for solo play, since it actually hase some counter-frig measures. I am not convinced that a navy omen or harbinger wouldn't outperform the phantasm in this role, for a lower price tag.
Target Painter Minmatar	Posted - 2011.04.04 11:06:00 - [35] Afterburning armor-HAC Phantasm checking in. Oh wai-
Target Painter Minmatar	Posted - 2011.04.04 11:10:00 - [36] Trying to use it as a snipe HAC isn't too hot either.
Aamrr	Posted - 2011.04.04 11:21:00 - [37] Honestly, the Phantasm suffers from range schizophrenia. Lasers excel at midrange, using scorch to deal X-ray damage at pulse-radio ranges. However, the phantasm also has two utility high slots, presumably intended for neuts or nosferatu. These top out at a range of 12.6km, not even half the optimal range of your turrets. I'm not sure who decided that lasers and neut/nos were a good idea, but until they get a SERIOUS range buff, they really, really aren't.
Diesel47	Posted - 2011.04.04 13:33:00 - [38] Originally by: Aamrr Honestly, the Phantasm suffers from range schizophrenia. Lasers excel at midrange, using scorch to deal X-ray damage at pulse-radio ranges. However, the phantasm also has two utility high slots, presumably intended for neuts or nosferatu. These top out at a range of 12.6km, not even half the optimal range of your turrets. I'm not sure who decided that lasers and neut/nos were a good idea, but until they get a SERIOUS range buff, they really, really aren't. You aren't limited to scorch you know... But the phantasm needs a look at, make it like the nightmare IMO. ****-ton of cap, and more cargospace... Good PG and CPU, so it can fit a very nice active shield tank... Boost the speed and agility a little too... Then it will be a good competitor against the other faction ships. Utility highs can be used for Nos or something.
Aamrr	Posted - 2011.04.04 15:24:00 - [39] Originally by: Diesel47 You aren't limited to scorch you know... Have you ever used lasers? Scorch outdamages everything lower-grade than X-ray. So it's basically multifrequency or scorch, and medium sized energy warfare matches the range of NEITHER. Oh, and don't get me started about fitting beams on the phantasm. Originally by: Diesel47 But the phantasm needs a look at, make it like the nightmare IMO. ****-ton of cap, and more cargospace... Good PG and CPU, so it can fit a very nice active shield tank... Boost the speed and agility a little too... Then it will be a good competitor against the other faction ships. Utility highs can be used for Nos or something. You've just described a generic buff with no real rhyme or reason to it. Sure, you can buff the statistics on a ship until it's a solopwnmobile, but you haven't done anything to give it a niche. If you're going to have an environment of rich counters and target selection, you need to have a distinct role for each ship. The phantasm lacks one, and your generic buffs do nothing to accomplish that. That said, the phantasm and ashimmu have one fewer total slot than the other faction cruisers. Giving the phantasm its missing low would go a long way toward fixing things. As for the niche? I don't know. Perhaps an energy warfare range buff for Sansha ships -- let them active tank using their enemy's capacitor. Right now, all we've got is a laser brick that glows blue instead of gold.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.04.04 15:36:00 - [40] Originally by: Aamrr As for the niche? I don't know. Perhaps an energy warfare range buff for Sansha ships -- let them active tank using their enemy's capacitor. Right now, all we've got is a laser brick that glows blue instead of gold. I propose a new niche: ** you *es I bring the DAMAGES - Add the missing low slot (4 lows) - Add 2 turrets (5 turrets) and fittings - Leave everything else alone (including agility/mobility) Target fit: Phantasm 5x HPL II Y-T8, Med Cap Booster II, Disruptor II, Web II, 2x Invuln II 3x HS II, DC II 3x CDFE I Uh, hold on let me stock up on some Phantasms... just in case... -Liang -- Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire On Twitter

Terianna Eri Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2011.04.04 19:10:00 - [41] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Aamrr As for the niche? I don't know. Perhaps an energy warfare range buff for Sansha ships -- let them active tank using their enemy's capacitor. Right now, all we've got is a laser brick that glows blue instead of gold. I propose a new niche: ** you *es I bring the DAMAGES - Add the missing low slot (4 lows) - Add 2 turrets (5 turrets) and fittings - Leave everything else alone (including agility/mobility) I endorse this product and/or service. ________________ Originally by:** CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
Sergeant Failfit	Posted - 2011.04.04 20:28:00 - [42] being able to fly that ship with all l5 i agree :D
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.04 20:37:00 - [43] I guess a little bit more gank would not hurt, thumbs up liang. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Aamrr	Posted - 2011.04.04 20:49:00 - [44] Edited by: Aamrr on 04/04/2011 20:49:39 Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Aamrr As for the niche? I don't know. Perhaps an energy warfare range buff for Sansha ships -- let them active tank using their enemy's capacitor. Right now, all we've got is a laser brick that glows blue instead of gold. I propose a new niche: ** you *es I bring the DAMAGES - Add the missing low slot (4 lows) - Add 2 turrets (5 turrets) and fittings - Leave everything else alone (including agility/mobility) I endorse this product and/or service. Confirming that "** You" DPS is a perfectly valid niche for a Phantasm.
Shade Millith Caldari Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2011.04.04 22:55:00 - [45] Edited by: Shade Millith on 04/04/2011 23:03:16 Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Aamrr As for the niche? I don't know. Perhaps an energy warfare range buff for Sansha ships -- let them active tank using their enemy's capacitor. Right now, all we've got is a laser brick that glows blue instead of gold. I propose a new niche: ** you *es I bring the DAMAGES - Add the missing low slot (4 lows) - Add 2 turrets (5 turrets) and fittings - Leave everything else alone (including agility/mobility) Target fit: Phantasm 5x HPL II Y-T8, Med Cap Booster II, Disruptor II, Web II, 2x Invuln II 3x HS II, DC II 3x CDFE I Uh, hold on let me stock up on some Phantasms... just in case... -Liang EFT's telling me that THING will be over 900dps with multi, and 733dps with scorch. 1007 dps with Conflag/HPL II, which would have very nearly the tracking of a zealot with Multi/FMPL II's, and much better than it's tracking with scorch. Slap a metastasis Adjuster on there, and you've got 859 Turret dps of Conflag/HPL II's out tracking 440dps Multi/FMPL II's. Not including the phantasm's drones I'd say yea, that's "** you I bring pain" right there. ------------------------
Terianna Eri Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn	Posted - 2011.04.04 23:13:00 - [46] 5 turrets might be a little much (because you're approaching/exceeding serpentis ship DPS output) but +1 turret to succubus, phantasm, nightmare would probably be ok ________________ Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
Aamrr	Posted - 2011.04.04 23:25:00 - [47] Giving +1 turret to the phantasm and succubus would be a well-justified buff. If you gave +1 turrets to the Nightmare, I think I might cream myself.
The Djego Minmatar Hellequin Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.05 00:05:00 - [48] Originally by: Terianna Eri 5 turrets might be a little much (because you're approaching/exceeding serpentis ship DPS output) but +1 turret to succubus, phantasm, nightmare would probably be ok Well it outganks the vigilant about 50-100 dps in max gank setups(max gank fitted it archives around 1380 DPS with heat and conflag, compared to the 850 atm). However what is more practical is the 700+ dps within point range with scorch in more realistic setups and I think it is mostly the baseline idea behind it. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Aamrr	Posted - 2011.04.05 00:21:00 - [49] I support giving the Phantasm +1 low slot and +1 turret, with fittings appropriate to use them.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.04.05 00:22:00 - [50] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 05/04/2011 00:26:33 Originally by: Terianna Eri 5 turrets might be a little much (because you're approaching/exceeding serpentis ship DPS output) but +1 turret to succubus, phantasm, nightmare would probably be ok Well, yes. But we shouldn't let blasters stand in the way of a nice buff to the Phantasm. Afterall, they need fixing too. Also, I was aware of just how much DPS it would push out before I posted it. And yes, 4 turrets is probably ok... especially if you move the last utility high to another mid (7 mids, yummy!). Don't blame me for being greedy!! -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter

Aamrr	Posted - 2011.04.05 00:32:00 - [51] Liang, I love Sansha ships as much as you do, but let's be rational here. We are NEVER going to get a that kind of spiky goodness. I think we push for +1 turret on each of the Sansha ships (we've gotta be consistent, right?!), and +1 low on the Phantasm and Ashimmu. Anything beyond that strains our credibility.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.04.05 00:39:00 - [52] Blah. Of course. Doesn't mean I can't fantasize. Besides, we've only been whining about the Phantasm for about a year now... I doubt we'll see it get fixed in the next year or so. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
Aamrr	Posted - 2011.04.05 01:15:00 - [53] I must admit though, I am kinda surprised to see you so enthusiastic about it. I thought you were big on the missile thing lately?
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.04.05 01:37:00 - [54] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 05/04/2011 01:37:37 Originally by: Aamrr I must admit though, I am kinda surprised to see you so enthusiastic about it. I thought you were big on the missile thing lately? I'm a diverse guy. I think these are the important changes that need made: - Boost Hybrids (raw damage) - Eliminate the ship tier system, including fixing the utterly ** Amarr T1 cruiser offering. - Boost Command Ships (Field with more DPS and improved fittings, Fleet with Moar Tank and maybe a better bonus). - Nerf unprobeable mechanics (sorry). Some minor ones: - Cruor and Ashimmu, neut amount -> +1 low, Neut range+amount, better mobility. - Succubus and Phantasm, +1 mid/low, +1 turret (I want 2 dammit!!!) - Worm, Gila, Rattlesnake, missile range -> missile rof - Dramiel, Cynabal, Machariel, Less agility/speed - Ony, Scim, Tracking Link bonus -> Active rep bonus. - Nemesis, more grid or CPU... its just a bad Manticore as things stand. - Raven, more shield HP. - Scorpion, ECM Range -> Missile ROF, 6 launchers, ECM Strength -> Increased. I don't guarantee all changes would work, or they'd work together. Just a random assortment of opinions, wishes, and desires. -Liang -- Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire On Twitter
Aamrr	Posted - 2011.04.05 02:00:00 - [55] I see a lot of things I like in that list, Liang. I'm not sure what to make out of the unprobeable nerf, though. Those gang links are awfully nice... ...still, probably for the best.
Tony SoXai	Posted - 2011.04.05 05:16:00 - [56] Originally by: knobber Jobbler Originally by: Tony SoXai Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Tony SoXai There is no cap trouble when you use a cap booster. I have not found that to be true. -Liang OK LETS SEE LIANG - Phantasm - 2 medium neuts, Y-T8 MWD, Warp disruptor, and focused medium pulses and an invuln and cap booster - cap stable at 57 % cap issues i think not. A ship using cap boosters is not cap stable. If you can run everything just using passive recharge then that's the only time you can call a ship cap stable. In the same token my basilisk is cap stable when another basilisk is giving me cap. Exactly. So where's the cap issues. Tard.
Aamrr	Posted - 2011.04.05 05:42:00 - [57] Originally by: Tony SoXai Originally by: knobber Jobbler Originally by: Tony SoXai OK LETS SEE LIANG - Phantasm - 2 medium neuts, Y-T8 MWD, Warp disruptor, and focused medium pulses and an invuln and cap booster - cap stable at 57 % cap issues i think not. A ship using cap boosters is not cap stable. If you can run everything just using passive recharge then that's the only time you can call a ship cap stable. In the same token my basilisk is cap stable when another basilisk is giving me cap. Exactly. So where's the cap issues. Tard. The cap issues are where you notice that the phantasm has no cargohold to speak of, and will run out of boosters long before their enemy runs out of hit points.
knobber Jobbler Executive Intervention Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2011.04.05 08:31:00 - [58] Originally by: Tony SoXai Exactly. So where's the cap issues. Tard. If you can't perma run everything on passive cap regen its not cap stable. If you need to use cap transfer or cap boosters you are cap unstable. In the case of cap boosters you're cap is unsustainable. Your relying on having enough cap boosters to get through a fight. Want to drop the insults and learn or want to continue to look like a 12 year old who should have been locked out of daddies computer for his own safety?
Straight Edged	Posted - 2011.04.05 13:18:00 - [59] the only thing i dont like about this game is unprobeable mechanics I think there should be a single medium slot mod, which consumes no cap, where if you activate it, you become unprobeable regardless of sig rad, or sen str. That way we wont waste too many slots on ECCM, on the other hand gurista could still jam you. This will encourage more ships to play in low sec. All ships also should allign faster. at least 3 times faster then it is today. Also, enemy targeting time on us should depend on our sensor strength instead of sigrad, so ships with ECCM should get targeted slower. So unprobeable ships wont have higher avg-mish-competion time on certain missions just because the other ships has a 50% chance of being jammed in the mission.
Proxyyyy Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2011.04.05 13:48:00 - [60] Originally by: Liang Nuren Edited by: Liang Nuren on 05/04/2011 01:37:37 Originally by: Aamrr I must admit though, I am kinda surprised to see you so enthusiastic about it. I thought you were big on the missile thing lately? I'm a diverse guy. I think these are the important changes that need made: - Boost Hybrids (raw damage) - Eliminate the ship tier system, including fixing the utterly ** Amarr T1 cruiser offering. - Boost Command Ships (Field with more DPS and improved fittings, Fleet with Moar Tank and maybe a better bonus). - Nerf unprobeable mechanics (sorry). Some minor ones: - Cruor and Ashimmu, neut amount -> +1 low, Neut range+amount, better mobility. - Succubus and Phantasm, +1 mid/low, +1 turret (I want 2 dammit!!!) - Worm, Gila, Rattlesnake, missile range -> missile rof - Dramiel, Cynabal, Machariel, Less agility/speed - Ony, Scim, Tracking Link bonus -> Active rep bonus. - Nemesis, more grid or CPU... its just a bad Manticore as things stand. - Raven, more shield HP. - Scorpion, ECM Range -> Missile ROF, 6 launchers, ECM Strength -> Increased. I don't guarantee all changes would work, or they'd work together. Just a random assortment of opinions, wishes, and desires. -Liang Your idea's and your list are pretty bad... Gunna disagree with you on the Succubus and Phantasm. Any increase in damage on those ships would render Serpentis ships useless. Having +1 High is as much as i'd ever ALLOW CCP TO DO TO MA SPIKES! If you still dont know the importance of neuts (utillity slots), being in this game and chating about it as much as you do, then heh! Neutralizers are better than webs imo. Atleast for dealing with frigates. On the cap issue. I tend to use 2 - 3 cap boosters per engagement, so its not a realy big deal. If you've flown the shield-harbinger you would have even less time on the field. Also, yeah! The shield Harbinger is better than the Phantasm, but not as fast or agile. Harbinger is cheaper, has a better tank and more damage. BUT DOES NOT HAVE SPIKES! Blood Raider ships, bar Bhaalgorn suck because they lack damage, which is alot more important these days. NOt to mention Sansha ships can use alot of neuts themself, but with more damage. Flying the Curse solo would show you that (Curse and pilgrim are bad). You have no time to ** around (screwing around with ewar and what not) anymore. You want alot of damage and the target down as fast as possible! Since the Ops intent is to solo. Guristas ships do need missile damage or ROF bonuses and i agree about the amarr t1 stuff and unprobable lamestuff. I would also like to see the scorpion get blasta damage bonuses and more turret hardpoints. DA GAME HAS CHANGE! Large amount of fleets are forcing solo pvp'ers to focus on damage and alot of it! NO MORE TIME TO PLAY WITH EWAR AND GRAB UR NUTZ WHILE WAITING FOR YOUR CLEVER shenanigans to help you win...



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