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Zealot vs. Phantasm

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Lucia Wilber Minmatar Our Own Pirate Society	Posted - 2011.04.02 11:56:00 - [1] Okay, I think I might be missing something here, but I can't find any good reason to ever buy a Zealot as long as there are Phantasms on the market. Here's my reasoning, and note that this all comes from a combination of EFT warrior'ing and my personal experience telling me how EFT numbers on paper translate to in-game combat. The Zealot is a pretty powerful HAC, that's true. Good DPS and really good range with Scorch, decent speed, and a lot of low slots to fit plenty of gank. That being said, I recently started looking at the Phantasm. Here's what I've come up with. Offensive Capabilities: The Zealot boasts upwards of 100 more DPS than the Phantasm, though the latter gains the benefit of a substantial 37.5% tracking bonus, which can help immensely during close-range orbits or when firing on frigates. This tracking bonus also helps to negate the penalty associated with T2 ammunition. The Zealot also gains the benefit of an increase in optimal range, though unless you're willing to buy a faction point you're likely going to be fighting within the Phantasm's optimal range anyway, and the latter's superior tracking will come into play. Defensive Capabilities: There's really no competition here. The Phantasm is capable of more than twice the effective hit points of the Zealot. While the Zealot does boast higher base resistances, it is incapable of fitting a substantial amount of hit points without severely reducing its speed and maneuverability. Furthermore, attempting to active tank this ship is difficult with its already poor capacitor performance. Any Zealot that even comes close to the effective HP of a Phantasm (which is shield tanked, thus allowing more buffer without any speed loss) will be much slower. While signature radius is a concern, the overall increase pales in comparison to the gain in hit points. Slot Layout: The Phantasm has the benefit of two utility high slots, while the Zealot has none. Drones: Again, no contest. The Phantasm can field three light drones, while the Zealot can field...zero. Time/ISK Investment: On average, the Phantasm is about 30-40 million cheaper than the Zealot and requires considerably less training time to maximize its ship bonuses. I was going to buy a Zealot...but I cannot think of any reason at all why I would want one over a Phantasm. All I can see is that I'm trading hit points, utility, drones, and time for a little range and DPS...and I'm paying more for it, too! Any insight from those of you that have actually flown these ships?
AristotleOnassis	Posted - 2011.04.02 12:35:00 - [2] Zealots are ussualy used with beam. Being able to spew 270-290 dps across 110-140km. Both shield and armor tanked beamlots are pretty cool to use, AB-armor being my fav Both Zealot AND phantasm is pretty outclassed by the battle cruisers in every single way, if you decide to fit armor-pulse. You will find the lack of drones to be a huge disadvantage for using both of those for short-range combat
Aamrr	Posted - 2011.04.02 13:04:00 - [3] Edited by: Aamrr on 02/04/2011 13:07:22 Here's a rough breakdown. I've put the important bits in bold. And for the record, I'll take a laser optimal bonus over a tracking bonus any day. And do keep in mind that the primary advantages of a cruiser over a battlecruiser are speed, agility, and signature radius. If you ever find yourself wanting to use a phantasm, seriously ask yourself whether a shield harbinger couldn't fill the role equally well. In almost all circumstances, the answer to that question will be "Yes." (The phantasm simply lacks the agility necessary to outperform its T2 battlecruiser counterpart.) Zealot: Has 8.33 effective turrets Has a 50% optimal bonus Has T2 Amarrian resists Has a small signature radius Has no utility high slots Has no drone bay Has 10 mid+low slots Two rig slots, 400 calibration. 215 m/s base speed 13 sensor strength 125 mm scan resolution 55 km lock range 3.75 AU/s warp speed Phantasm: Has 7.5 effective turrets Has a 37.5% tracking bonus Has only T1 resists Cannot signature tank Has two utility high slots Has a 15 m3 drone bay Has only 9 mid+low slots (It's missing one!) 3 rig slots, 350 calibration 164 m/s base speed 20 sensor strength 275 mm scan resolution 59 km lock range 3.0 AU/s warp speed
Herrring Amarr National Quality Breaker	Posted - 2011.04.02 13:30:00 - [4] Why would you ever buy a phantasm if you have hac5 and amarr cruiser 5
Aamrr	Posted - 2011.04.02 13:37:00 - [5] If you wanted to mount some unbonused ewar modules at the expense of both tank and gank, I suppose? Yeah, it's a crappy ship. I'd like to see it get some love, but it's not going to happen.
Zeerover Wolfsbrigade	Posted - 2011.04.02 15:45:00 - [6] It's not often that I find a thread I disagree with so strongly. The Zealot is so much better than the Phantasm, that there is practically no reason to use a Phantasm. A Nano Zealot is nearly twice as fast as the Phantasm, which being a faction cruiser, will melt to the inevitable blob that comes. The Zealot is able to dictate range and kill anything that keeps up, while burning off from anything that can kill it.
Aamrr	Posted - 2011.04.02 15:58:00 - [7] As if I hadn't already made it blatantly obvious, I agree. For Amarrians, optimal range IS damage -- it lets you use shorter-range crystals do maximize your damage output. While the Phantasm might have been an interesting had it been able to use scorch at point range, it simply lacks the speed and agility to kite properly, and lacks the survivability to be a competent brawler. Really, it's a schizophrenic ship. Pulse lasers with scorch perfectly match point range, but if you try to do that, you're wasting your utility highs. Until CCP revisits it, I don't think we're going to see it replacing nano-harbingers.
Not a Troll	Posted - 2011.04.02 16:04:00 - [8] You are missing several important things for this comparison. 1. What are you going to use it for? 2. How are you shield / armor taning skills? 3. What about other skills?
Proxyyyy Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2011.04.02 16:06:00 - [9] The Phantasm is superior to the Zealot in solo-pvp. Phantasm Has more damage, utility slots and better tracking. However, when the fight scales up to a certain number. Long-range or armor-Zealots, which offer more resistence , hit-points and damage @ longer ranges. Anyways... You should be comparing the Vagabond and Phantasm. The Phantasm out damages the Vagabond @ every range below 40k; Has more ehp and can have high resistence, but not higher than a Vagabond can attain, and the hull cost less. The comparisons end there... The only other ship comparable, is the Cynabal. Again, the Phantasm can out damage a Cynabal from 17- 40k. Has the same or better amount of hit-points and resistence. Not to mention it's alot cheaper. The comparisons also, ends there... Sansha's Nation and Angel Cartel, have the best line-up of ships for the current pvp enviroment. Sansha ships, are alot less than serpentis or Angel ships and somewhere between the 2 in terms of preformance. Often, better than any other faction ships (bar angel cartel) in most situations. Like, you could setup a 1400dps Nightmare, 700dps Phantasm or a 300dps Succubus (rounded). Those numbers are very close to serpentis damage output, but with way better range... THINK OF THEM AS BLASTA LAZA BOATZ!
Aamrr	Posted - 2011.04.02 16:31:00 - [10] No argument there. The Zealot is a TERRIBLE solo ship. No utility highs, no drones, almost no midslots for ewar, and no tracking bonus means you die to the first frigate you see. However, you've completely missed the phantasm's REAL competition. Take a look at the navy omen. I think you'll find the ship you were really looking for.
Proxyyyy Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2011.04.02 16:50:00 - [11] Seen as how i've flown them all solo and in gangs. Im pretty sure my statements are accurate. Also, notice i compared shield tanked ships. I've flown the Navy Omen in both a shield and armor configuration. The Phantasm is clearly better as a shield tanked ship. Minus the lower velocity = / if i thought the Navy Omen could compare to the Cynabal and Vagabond i would say so. Atleast in a shield configuration, but it does'nt and thats mainly dew to resist and tank. I've also engaged Vagabonds in a shield Harbinger a few times and it takes alot longer to deal with them, compared to a Hurricane. Why does that matter? It matters because, the shield-Harbinger has twice the hit-points of the Navy Omen and in a engagement versus a Vagabond (other ships were often there too) that fight often went into armor. The Phantasm has almost as much ehp as a shield-Harbinger. The only other faction cruiser that has as much ehp in a shield config is the Cynabal. So, i dont think i'm mistaken...
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.04.02 16:51:00 - [12] I had quite a number of Phantasms in my hangar at one point. I sold them all, because the ship simply isn't very maneuverable or fast .... and really now what are you going to fit in those two utility highs? A pair of neuts? As if it didn't have cap trouble enough. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
Tony SoXai	Posted - 2011.04.02 17:04:00 - [13] There is no cap trouble when you use a cap booster. But that said, both the Succubus and Phantasm are probably the worst pirate faction ships in the game. They can't shield tank as good as the Guristas ships, aren't fast at all, barely outdps the Blood Raider ships, and have no web or neut bonus or anything to make them stand out. A Succubus can barely beat the stats of a shield tanked Rifter. Of course it has a web slot but I mean that is not a very distinct advantaged for a 70 mil faction frigate. The Daredevil is the only pirate frigate that is not hilariously nerfed or buffed. Nerf the Dramiel, buff the Cruor and and Worm (the Worm is a great ship, but really isn't all that much better than a Jaguar if they are fit similarly). The Cynabal, Gila and Vigilant are all great, buff the Ashimmu though. Sansha ships as well as Blood Raider ships need to be rethought out. Take the Ashimmu/Cruor - Web velocity bonus AND a neutralizing bonus; what's the point of the web bonus? To keep range so you're out of your bonused neut range? What's the point of the neut bonus? To keep your targets immobile even though that's what the bonused web will do? Succubus/Phantasm - they can fit a good shield tank and have good damage with good range, but they're slow and don't really bring anything exciting to the table. I can't see a Succubus beating any competently flown pirate frigs, and can't see the Phantasm beating any of the competently flown pirate cruisers. Re-think their roles please.
Proxyyyy Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2011.04.02 17:26:00 - [14] If you have not flown a crusader, coercer and retribution. Then i cannot explain to you why it's second only to the dramiel, which it can beat convincingly. Provided you can explode the Dramiel before it runs away. You can use a dual-neut, high-damage, cap booster config that can deal with the Dramiel's speed and is better than a cruor (imo). OR! You could have a damage config that does as much damage as a coecer, which melts things very quickly. OR! You can buffer/active tank it with dual nos and perma run everything and can tackle larger ships with neuts. IF YOU HAVE NOT SOLO'ED IN A SHIELD-HARBINGER. Then i cannot explain to you why the Phantasm is somewhere between a Cynabal, in terms of velocity, and Vigilant, in terms of Damage. Liang is right about the low velocity, high cap useage and low agility, but it's a cheap alternative to a Cynabal or Vigilant. Definitely, better option than the other pirate-faction ships.
Lucia Wilber Minmatar Our Own Pirate Society	Posted - 2011.04.02 18:21:00 - [15] A lot of helpful advice. I hadn't realized that the Zealot's agility was so much higher than the Phantasm. Also, I was comparing them on their solo capabilities more than their use in gang warfare (in which case the Zealot has a big advantage). Also, I had never thought of shield-tanking a Harbinger. My primary ships have been Hurricanes and Drakes. I will look into that. Thanks for the feedback!
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.04.02 18:23:00 - [16] Originally by: Tony SoXai There is no cap trouble when you use a cap booster. I have not found that to be true. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
Tony SoXai	Posted - 2011.04.02 18:28:00 - [17] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Tony SoXai There is no cap trouble when you use a cap booster. I have not found that to be true. -Liang OK LETS SEE LIANG - Phantasm - 2 medium neuts, Y-T8 MWD, Warp disruptor, and focused medium pulses and an invuln and cap booster - cap stable at 57 % cap issues i think not.
Aamrr	Posted - 2011.04.02 18:29:00 - [18] Originally by: Proxyyyy Liang is right about the low velocity, high cap useage and low agility, but it's a cheap alternative to a Cynabal or Vigilant. Definitely, better option than the other pirate-faction ships. And if that doesn't illustrate why it's a bad ship, I don't know what does. The phantasm, the cynabal, and the vigilant are all faction cruisers. They all come from the same source (random drops and pirate faction LP stores), so the blueprint supply should be reasonably close. Price is a function of supply and demand. If the supply is equal and the phantasm is THAT much cheaper... ...well, what can we conclude about our favorite spiky cruiser?
Proxyyyy Caldari 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda	Posted - 2011.04.02 18:41:00 - [19] Originally by: Aamrr Originally by: Proxyyyy Liang is right about the low velocity, high cap useage and low agility, but it's a cheap alternative to a Cynabal or Vigilant. Definitely, better option than the other pirate-faction ships. And if that doesn't illustrate why it's a bad ship, I don't know what does. The phantasm, the cynabal, and the vigilant are all faction cruisers. They all come from the same source (random drops and pirate faction LP stores), so the blueprint supply should be reasonably close. Price is a function of supply and demand. If the supply is equal and the phantasm is THAT much cheaper... ...well, what can we conclude about our favorite spiky cruiser? You're silly = )
DHB WildCat Flash Over. WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2011.04.02 19:34:00 - [20] I think I can some this whole arguement up in one word.... CAP! the phantasm has none. Just running its guns alone will cap it out.... the ship sux!
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.04.02 19:50:00 - [21] Originally by: Tony SoXai OK LETS SEE LIANG - Phantasm - 2 medium neuts, Y-T8 MWD, Warp disruptor, and focused medium pulses and an invuln and cap booster - cap stable at 57 % cap issues i think not. Did your EFT tell you that? That's nice. I guess the Abaddon doesn't ever have cap troubles either because you can just fit a cap booster to it too. -Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
DHB WildCat Flash Over. WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2011.04.02 20:19:00 - [22] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Tony SoXai OK LETS SEE LIANG - Phantasm - 2 medium neuts, Y-T8 MWD, Warp disruptor, and focused medium pulses and an invuln and cap booster - cap stable at 57 % cap issues i think not. Did your EFT tell you that? That's nice. I guess the Abaddon doesn't ever have cap troubles either because you can just fit a cap booster to it too. -Liang Dont you know that EFT is everything!
Templar Dane Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2011.04.02 20:45:00 - [23] Originally by: DHB WildCat Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Tony SoXai OK LETS SEE LIANG - Phantasm - 2 medium neuts, Y-T8 MWD, Warp disruptor, and focused medium pulses and an invuln and cap booster - cap stable at 57 % cap issues i think not. Did your EFT tell you that? That's nice. I guess the Abaddon doesn't ever have cap troubles either because you can just fit a cap booster to it too. -Liang Dont you know that EFT is everything! EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEFT
Doug Drafto	Posted - 2011.04.02 22:30:00 - [24] The real issue is that shield tanking is ridiculously over powered right now. With out this simple fact the Zealot would be the better ship 99/100 times.
Straight Edged	Posted - 2011.04.03 01:56:00 - [25] Quote: The real issue is that shield tanking is ridiculously over powered right now. With out this simple fact the Zealot would be the better ship 99/100 times. The real issue for bantam, is that bantam isnt ridiculously over powered right now. With out this simple fact the bantam would be the better ship 99/100 times.
Idicious Lightbane Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2011.04.03 02:00:00 - [26] Originally by: Doug Drafto The real issue is that shield tanking is ridiculously over powered right now. With out this simple fact the Zealot would be the better ship 99/100 times. You can shield tank + nano a zealot in a fairly awesome way as well Zealot has always been a gang ship dew to it's slot lay-out and lack of drone bay, it's probably the worst HAC to solo in but one of the best for gang work.
Lucia Wilber Minmatar Our Own Pirate Society	Posted - 2011.04.03 04:35:00 - [27] Originally by: Idicious Lightbane Originally by: Doug Drafto The real issue is that shield tanking is ridiculously over powered right now. With out this simple fact the Zealot would be the better ship 99/100 times. You can shield tank + nano a zealot in a fairly awesome way as well Zealot has always been a gang ship dew to it's slot lay-out and lack of drone bay, it's probably the worst HAC to solo in but one of the best for gang work. How do you shield tank a ship with only three mid slots? You need at least two for point and propulsion, right?
Herrring Amarr National Quality Breaker	Posted - 2011.04.03 04:42:00 - [28] Originally by: Lucia Wilber Originally by: Idicious Lightbane Originally by: Doug Drafto The real issue is that shield tanking is ridiculously over powered right now. With out this simple fact the Zealot would be the better ship 99/100 times. You can shield tank + nano a zealot in a fairly awesome way as well Zealot has always been a gang ship dew to it's slot lay-out and lack of drone bay, it's probably the worst HAC to solo in but one of the best for gang work. How do you shield tank a ship with only three mid slots? You need at least two for point and propulsion, right? I dont think many people do anymore, but you fit a shield extender + mwd and nano them. Sometiems you fit a point but a lot of the times(if you shiled tank), you dont fit one and shoot your pulse lasers at 50km while others tackle for you.
Sigras	Posted - 2011.04.03 05:23:00 - [29] Has nobody seen the signature tanking HAC gang videos where everyone has a halo set and an x instinct booster and nobody can hit them because they have such a small sig radius? /me looks through links to find epic PvP videos
Idicious Lightbane Percussive Diplomacy	Posted - 2011.04.03 14:23:00 - [30] Originally by: Lucia Wilber Originally by: Idicious Lightbane Originally by: Doug Drafto The real issue is that shield tanking is ridiculously over powered right now. With out this simple fact the Zealot would be the better ship 99/100 times. You can shield tank + nano a zealot in a fairly awesome way as well Zealot has always been a gang ship dew to it's slot lay-out and lack of drone bay, it's probably the worst HAC to solo in but one of the best for gang work. How do you shield tank a ship with only three mid slots? You need at least two for point and propulsion, right? Just copy/pasted this from another forum I put this up on: Intended for small/medium sized gangs, shield logi's are nice but I've run them in plenty of mixed BC fleets without logi and because of your insane optimal and good speed/agility you can GTFO when needed and apply DPS to anywhere on the field instantly, it also tracks high traversal ceptors if their >20km out. If you do get primaried just warp-out to a nearby celestial, you're paper-thin and logi's probably won't be able to keep you up, just buy you more time to get out. You will most of the time not be a good primary because you'll be staying some 30km or so out of the main blob. You can dispatch the fast tackle quickly and then project all it's DPS to full potential on every target called. I've racked up around 240 kills in this fit alone, lost 2 so far both to either bad judgement calls or pure stupidity on my part, have been in every kind of engagement imaginable with them and they are by far my most isk efficient ship (as to isk damage done to lost in certain ship) Stats with max skills no implants (with some cheap implants it just gets better and better) EHP: 20.778 Scorch: 456/525 OL (1 minute +-), Range: 50 + 8.2 IN Multi: 573/658 OL, Range: 17 + 8.2 Speed: 299, MWD: 1896/2695 OL (1.30 minutes OL) Cap lasts around 1.40 with everything running, stable without MWD. [Zealot, Nano HPL] Damage Control II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Large Shield Extender II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Conjunctive Radar ECCM Scanning Array I Heavy Pulse Laser II,Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II,Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II,Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II,Scorch M Heavy Pulse Laser II,Scorch M Medium Energy Locus Coordinator II Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I

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