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Alejandro Zapata
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Posted - 2005.02.05 15:53:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Alejandro Zapata on 05/02/2005 15:54:47
I am a new elite frigate pilot, and I have only flown Amarr types. I love my Retribution for Level 3 mission running, it is pretty much unstoppable. But every time I look at the fitting screen, I find myself slightly disgusted at the fact that I can only use 4 out of 5 of my high slots for traditional offensive weaponry (turrets and/or missile bay) and I can't help but notice that poor lonely mid slot.
I was just wondering how many peeps out there that love this little ship as much as I do, also long for what this little ship could be.
What changes, IF any, would you like to see to this vessel? Meridius had made a suggestion a while back, that I really think would be awesome. It would keep the ship original by giving her another turret slot, and removing the fifth low slot and putting in in the middle. Making her more flexible for PvP, and making her a pure gunship.
*For all you other assault ship pilots, feel free to include your wishes for your favorite assault ship. 
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Bad'Boy
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Posted - 2005.02.05 15:56:00 -
[2]
amarr=sucks at EW= little low slots
so leave it as it is...want many med slots go for caldari ships
B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling
"Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
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Marnix
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Posted - 2005.02.05 16:12:00 -
[3]
Just add a fifth turret. While a second medslot would make it more suited for PvP, it ALSO makes it similar to all the other Assaults. The five lowslots and single med make it a VERY interesting ship to setup.
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Bad'Boy
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Posted - 2005.02.05 16:44:00 -
[4]
then give my enyo and ishkur 5th and 4th turret slot 2
B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling
"Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
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Marnix
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Posted - 2005.02.05 16:47:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Bad'Boy
then give my enyo and ishkur 5th and 4th turret slot 2
If my Retribution gets some dronespace...
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.02.05 16:51:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Marnix
Originally by: Bad'Boy
then give my enyo and ishkur 5th and 4th turret slot 2
If my Retribution gets some dronespace...
then I want pulse laser range
Wanna fly with me?
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Marnix
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Posted - 2005.02.05 16:52:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Marnix
Originally by: Bad'Boy
then give my enyo and ishkur 5th and 4th turret slot 2
If my Retribution gets some dronespace...
then I want pulse laser range
Bugger off Nafri, this has **** all to do with Pulse lasers. It's about the Retribution lacking a needed fifth turret.
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Neon Genesis
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Posted - 2005.02.05 17:20:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Marnix
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Marnix
Originally by: Bad'Boy
then give my enyo and ishkur 5th and 4th turret slot 2
If my Retribution gets some dronespace...
then I want pulse laser range
Bugger off Nafri, this has **** all to do with Pulse lasers. It's about the Retribution lacking a needed fifth turret.
The toys are being ejected from the pram! 
__
There, i just contributed nothing to your thread
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Bad'Boy
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Posted - 2005.02.05 17:24:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Marnix
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Marnix
Originally by: Bad'Boy
then give my enyo and ishkur 5th and 4th turret slot 2
If my Retribution gets some dronespace...
then I want pulse laser range
Bugger off Nafri, this has **** all to do with Pulse lasers. It's about the Retribution lacking a needed fifth turret.
then why Are you talking about dronespace?
B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling
"Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
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Marnix
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Posted - 2005.02.05 17:52:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Bad'Boy
then why Are you talking about dronespace?
You want another turret for the Gallente Assaults. They don't need one because they have dronespace. Hence that makes your counter invalid.
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Bad'Boy
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Posted - 2005.02.05 17:53:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Marnix
Originally by: Bad'Boy
then why Are you talking about dronespace?
You want another turret for the Gallente Assaults. They don't need one because they have dronespace. Hence that makes your counter invalid.
yea, one light drone does lots of damage(enyo)
B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling
"Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
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Marnix
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Posted - 2005.02.05 18:03:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Marnix on 05/02/2005 18:03:35
Originally by: Bad'Boy
yea, one light drone does lots of damage(enyo)
The Enyo also has a launcher slot. But let me put it in simple terms. The Enyo can fill all its highslots with traditional offensive measures. (Also known as: "Turrets" and "Launchers") Adittionally it has dronespace, even though according to you its neglectable.
Thye Ishkur can use 3 of its 4 highslots for traditional offensive measures. Additionally it has 10 light drones at its disposal.
The Retribution can only fill 4 of its 5 highslots with traditional offensive measures. Additionaly it hasnt got ANY dronespace.
Is my point clear?
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.02.05 18:10:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Marnix
Edited by: Marnix on 05/02/2005 18:03:35
Originally by: Bad'Boy
yea, one light drone does lots of damage(enyo)
The Enyo also has a launcher slot. But let me put it in simple terms. The Enyo can fill all its highslots with traditional offensive measures. (Also known as: "Turrets" and "Launchers") Adittionally it has dronespace, even though according to you its neglectable.
Thye Ishkur can use 3 of its 4 highslots for traditional offensive measures. Additionally it has 10 light drones at its disposal.
The Retribution can only fill 4 of its 5 highslots with traditional offensive measures. Additionaly it hasnt got ANY dronespace.
Is my point clear?
mhh when you start whining I just join, I like group whining 
no and devs stated Amarr get this utility slots and somehow Caldari tends to get range bonus on guns thy cant fit
but try to use the 5 midslots of the ship for some tanking?
Wanna fly with me?
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Marnix
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Posted - 2005.02.05 18:30:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Marnix
Edited by: Marnix on 05/02/2005 18:03:35
Originally by: Bad'Boy
yea, one light drone does lots of damage(enyo)
The Enyo also has a launcher slot. But let me put it in simple terms. The Enyo can fill all its highslots with traditional offensive measures. (Also known as: "Turrets" and "Launchers") Adittionally it has dronespace, even though according to you its neglectable.
Thye Ishkur can use 3 of its 4 highslots for traditional offensive measures. Additionally it has 10 light drones at its disposal.
The Retribution can only fill 4 of its 5 highslots with traditional offensive measures. Additionaly it hasnt got ANY dronespace.
Is my point clear?
mhh when you start whining I just join, I like group whining
no and devs stated Amarr get this utility slots and somehow Caldari tends to get range bonus on guns thy cant fit
but try to use the 5 midslots of the ship for some tanking?
It's got 5 lowslots actually. But i got your point.
Yes, you can tank it quite fine. The resistance distribution helps quite a bit too. But thats offset by the fact that you wont EVER kill an Interceptor or properly piloted frigate in it. Why? Fit a Disruptor and youll A) Run out of cap and B) Not be able to hit closerange. Fit a Webber and the Inti / frig can just run.
To be semi-usefull in PvP it needs another medslot. But i wont even bother asking for it, CCP has quite clearly stated the Retribution is more geared towards NPCing. Fine.
The nicely distributed resistances are CRAP for NPCing Though. Why? Theres no NPC type that does only Kinetic and Explosive. Where the Minmatar frigates can take on BS spawns without worrying with 90% to EM and Thermal resistance, the Retribution will not come above 60% for Thermal. (Talking about Sansha / Bloods here. The story is the same for Gallente and Caldari, just switch the names of the ship, and the types of resistance.)
Anyway.
It badly needs that fifth turret slot for a few simple reasons:
1) It needs level 5 Assaults Ship to MATCH the damage of a Crusader. It needs to easily outdamage one.
2) It would match the Amarr philosphy. Lot's of guns.
3) It would look so sexy!
Now you're problably going to say that would overpower it. Except it wouldnt. Why not? It has trouble fitting a tank and some proper guns using only 4 turrets. (And as you so nicely said, it is made to tank.) With another turret, but the SAME grid, it would have to make choices. Which in turn would make it a more interesting ship to setup.
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Ocularis
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Posted - 2005.02.05 18:38:00 -
[15]
If your after a PvP assault for Amarr... what about the Vengance? 
I fly both and love my retribution too, but would not PvP in it if i could help it, at least not on my own.
Vengance is a fine ship although it seems to get slated quite a bit. 3 tech 2 pulse, 1 arbalest launcher in highs, then mids with usual webber/scrambler and the lows with hardners. Vengance gets a cap boost bonus so cap relays or rechargers shouldnt be needed that much.
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Marnix
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Posted - 2005.02.05 18:45:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Marnix on 05/02/2005 18:46:05
Originally by: Ocularis
If your after a PvP assault for Amarr... what about the Vengance?
I fly both and love my retribution too, but would not PvP in it if i could help it, at least not on my own.
Vengance is a fine ship although it seems to get slated quite a bit. 3 tech 2 pulse, 1 arbalest launcher in highs, then mids with usual webber/scrambler and the lows with hardners. Vengance gets a cap boost bonus so cap relays or rechargers shouldnt be needed that much.
The Vengeance has nothing to do with the argument. Like i said, the Devs have clearly stated that one race Assault's purpose is for PvP and one's for NPC. I've already given up on complaining about the fact that i want ALL ships to have a role in PvP. That wont be happening anyway.
What i AM asking for, is the Retribution to be atleast usefull in NPCing aswell. The fact alone that a PvP Interceptor (Crusader) not only outdamages it and is twice as fast, can also take on NPC BS spawns with ease. Something the Retribution has problems with. (Sure, it can be done. But it's for the rare few who appear to get turned on by doing the most inefficient NPCing in the bestlooking ship ingame.)
The Retribution should be able to take a fair amount of punishment before it dies. And preferably dish out some damage.
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Bad'Boy
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Posted - 2005.02.05 18:54:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Bad'Boy on 05/02/2005 18:56:16
try fitting some heat sinks in low
and use 5th slot for NOS
B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling
"Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
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Marnix
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Posted - 2005.02.05 18:57:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Marnix on 05/02/2005 18:58:17
Originally by: Bad'Boy
try fitting some heat sinks in low
I would love too, but that would:
A) Crap my tanking
B) Crap my cap
That is assuming you can find the CPU to fit one. Which you won't.
Originally by: Bad'Boy
and use 5th slot for NOS
I would, but again:
CPU issues
However, let me put it different. I KNOW what other options i have for that last slot. What i'm asking you now is this:
Give me one good reason why the Retribution SHOULDNT get that fifth turret.
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Bad'Boy
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Posted - 2005.02.05 19:00:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Bad'Boy on 05/02/2005 19:02:33
Originally by: Marnix
Edited by: Marnix on 05/02/2005 18:58:17
Originally by: Bad'Boy
try fitting some heat sinks in low
I would love too, but that would:
A) Crap my tanking
B) Crap my cap
That is assuming you can find the CPU to fit one. Which you won't.
Originally by: Bad'Boy
and use 5th slot for NOS
I would, but again:
CPU issues
However, let me put it different. I KNOW what other options i have for that last slot. What i'm asking you now is this:
Give me one good reason why the Retribution SHOULDNT get that fifth turret.
so you want it to be able to have awsome tank and do lots of damage all at ones?
and about why it cant have 5th turret=2 overpowerd
B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling
"Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
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Ocularis
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Posted - 2005.02.05 19:01:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Ocularis on 05/02/2005 19:03:31
Originally by: Marnix
The Vengeance has nothing to do with the argument. Like i said, the Devs have clearly stated that one race Assault's purpose is for PvP and one's for NPC. I've already given up on complaining about the fact that i want ALL ships to have a role in PvP. That wont be happening anyway.
But you can PvP in all ships... i just think that each ship need to be either used on its own or in a group. if you look at it like this then the best one to use on your own would be the vengance, in a group the retribution is going to do some serious damage with your team mates.
Originally by: Marnix
The Retribution should be able to take a fair amount of punishment before it dies. And preferably dish out some damage.
I thought it already did... hence the bonus it receives for each level of assault frig skill you have? With tech 2 guns, a heat sink 2 in the lows those little guns deal out a superb level of damage... and it can take a lot of damage too...
I just dont understand where your coming from on these points?
EDIT:
Originally by: Marnix
Edited by: Marnix on 05/02/2005 18:58:17
Originally by: Bad'Boy
try fitting some heat sinks in low
I would love too, but that would:
A) Crap my tanking
B) Crap my cap
That is assuming you can find the CPU to fit one. Which you won't.
Your tank should be fine... i run a setup with a heat sink and it all fits on...
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Marnix
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Posted - 2005.02.05 19:06:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Bad'Boy
crap your cap, crap your tank...you want it all at ones huh=?
No, i don't. You used the fact that it's a good tank for not getting that fifth turret. It's not a bad tank, certainly. But its damage is crap. Whereas the other Assaults can have a proper tank, as long as it's used against the proper NPCs, AND do some damage. The Retribution can't.
Originally by: Bad'Boy
and about why it cant have 5th turret=2 overpowerd
I've already explained why it wont be overpowered. But oh well:
The Enyo has 4 turrets and 1 launcher. The Taranis has 3 turrets. So please take away a turret and a launcher. Why? Otherwise its overpowered.
But wait a minute. It ISNT overpowered. So maybe its a GOOD thing that it outdamages a Taranis. It is? Thought so.
The Retribution has 4 turrets. The Crusader has 4 turrets.
Is the Crusader overpowered? Nope. But the Retribution does NOT outdamage it. Why not?
Besides that quite clear point, there's another thing. If you wanted to use that fifth turret you'd be running into grid trouble. (You do already without it.) So it would have even more trouble fitting a proper fit. But it could also specialise more. Which means it would be more usefull.
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Marnix
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Posted - 2005.02.05 19:13:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Marnix on 05/02/2005 19:13:51
Originally by: Ocularis
Edited by: Ocularis on 05/02/2005 19:03:31
But you can PvP in all ships... i just think that each ship need to be either used on its own or in a group. if you look at it like this then the best one to use on your own would be the vengance, in a group the retribution is going to do some serious damage with your team mates.
You cannot PvP in an Auguror. You cannot PvP in an Arbitrator. You YOURSELF stated you can't PvP in a Retribution. Hell, i agree. It's use in PvP would be, ehm, rather limited.
Originally by: Ocularis
I thought it already did... hence the bonus it receives for each level of assault frig skill you have? With tech 2 guns, a heat sink 2 in the lows those little guns deal out a superb level of damage... and it can take a lot of damage too...
I just dont understand where your coming from on these points?
The damage it dishes out is lower then that of its Interceptor counterpart, the Crusader. Respectable damage? Right.
Originally by: Marnix
Your tank should be fine... i run a setup with a heat sink and it all fits on...
Using Tech2 equipment, no it won't fit. And it's an Elite ship, its MADE for Tech2.
EDIT: Fixed bloody quotes.
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Bad'Boy
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Posted - 2005.02.05 19:22:00 -
[23]
taranis outdamage enyo
B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling
"Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
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Marnix
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Posted - 2005.02.05 19:27:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Marnix on 05/02/2005 19:27:15
Originally by: Bad'Boy
taranis outdamage enyo
No, it doesnt. Taranis gets 50% damage, the Enyo gets 25%. But the Enyo can fit an additional turret, or an additional 25% damage. That makes them equal in damage. Then theres the launcher.
You still fail to answer my question though. Why should the Retribution NOT get a fifth turret?
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Bad'Boy
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Posted - 2005.02.05 19:52:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Marnix
Edited by: Marnix on 05/02/2005 19:27:15
Originally by: Bad'Boy
taranis outdamage enyo
No, it doesnt. Taranis gets 50% damage, the Enyo gets 25%. But the Enyo can fit an additional turret, or an additional 25% damage. That makes them equal in damage. Then theres the launcher.
You still fail to answer my question though. Why should the Retribution NOT get a fifth turret?
lol
be4 you say **** like that try enyo and taranis
you dont fit blasters on enyo for pvp btw
B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling
"Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
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Shadowsword
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Posted - 2005.02.05 19:55:00 -
[26]
The Taranis is made for blasters, while the Enyo is obviously a railgun boat, that's why most Taranis outdamage Enyos, if not by very far.
I fly a Retribution, and used it to pvp, and it's very possible to run a small repairer II and active hardener, with web and weapons, and one heat sink, indefinitely. You just need 2 cap relays for that.
The setup I use:
4*dual light pulse II
AB for fleet and pack action, web when I'm soloing
small armor rep II
N-type thermic hardener
2*cap relays
Heat sink II
that setup give me a damage mod of 4.7 and a RoF of 1.7 sec, when you multiply it by 4 it mean an impressive DoT for a small ship. You can strip a crow of it's shields in only 3-4 seconds, and if the crow pilot panic or take some time to react he's as good as dead. You won't kill every interceptor you find, but most of them don't use an armor repairer, so they sure as hell won't come back for a second round.
Putting a fifth turret would overpower it, compared to others asault ships.
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Parallax Error
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Posted - 2005.02.05 20:07:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Parallax Error on 05/02/2005 20:09:39
Actually you can PvP in an Arbitraor, but thats beside the point.
The Retribution is an inflexible hunk of junk and is pretty much worthless for anything other than level 3 missions. I don't mind the level 1 cruisers being a waste of time for PvP, but a tech 2 assault ship that is gimped for PvP compared to every other assault frig out there?
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Alejandro Zapata
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Posted - 2005.02.05 20:08:00 -
[28]
If adding a fifth turret makes it overpowered, which I don't believe, then why not give it what every other races 5 slot assault has, a missile launcher?
Why should it only get 4 traditional offense slots, while every one else has 5?
If you don't want to give it a another turret or a missile launcher, then why not drop the 5th slot and give it a another mid slot, so it can web/scramble AND have a speed mod, like every other assault ship can? What would be wrong with a 4-2-5 setup?
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Ocularis
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Posted - 2005.02.05 20:09:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Marnix
You cannot PvP in an Auguror. You cannot PvP in an Arbitrator. You YOURSELF stated you can't PvP in a Retribution. Hell, i agree. It's use in PvP would be, ehm, rather limited.
Says who? I think the arbitrator would be ok for PvP... drone bonus... nice! Ok, it wouldnt be my first choice thats for sure, but its possible. I think you CAN PvP in ANY ship... just you might not have the upper hand all the time and some ships do seem suited more to PvP than others.... like the vengance etc. I guess the key to PvP is the mid slot issue... so you can web/scramble... otherwise i dont see what the difference is.
Originally by: Marnix
The damage it dishes out is lower then that of its Interceptor counterpart, the Crusader. Respectable damage? Right.
Ive been looking into this...
Cruisader:
Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% reduction in Small Energy Turret capacitor use and 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage per level
Interceptors Skill Bonus: 5% reduction in Signature Radius and 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret Tracking Speed per level
Total: 50% less cap use for guns, 25% more damage to guns, 25% better tracking
Retribution:
Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% reduction in Small Energy Turret cap use, 15% bonus to Shield and Armor Explosive resistance and 10% bonus to Shield and Armor Kinetic resistance per level
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Energy Turret optimal range and 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage per Level.
Total: 50% less cap use for guns, 50% more range to guns, 25% more damage to guns
Looks pretty even to me on damage apart from the range & tracking bonus - so no, i dont think it can do more damage personally (this is assuming interceptor and assault skills at level 5)
Originally by: Marnix
Using Tech2 equipment, no it won't fit. And it's an Elite ship, its MADE for Tech2.
What all tech 2? you may be right... but you can fit tech 2 guns, and a tech 2 heat sink & tech 2 armor repair on and still have some cpu left... prob get the tech to armor plating on too with a CPR instead of cap relay in low slot.
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Parallax Error
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Posted - 2005.02.05 20:11:00 -
[30]
Crusader can pretty much choose the range it enagges at though, plus the tanking ability of the Retrib is wasted unless you fit the only mid with an AB, otherwise larger guns dont have much problem hitting it.
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