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Parallax Error
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Posted - 2005.02.05 20:13:00 -
[31]
Hmm, infact why do I bother? The same argument occured when the Assault Frigs were released, and the best reasoning we've been given is 'because its a PvE ship'. And that in itself is a load of horse ****, the Vengeance beats the Retrib hands down for PvE as well.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2005.02.05 20:54:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Bad'Boy
then give my enyo and ishkur 5th and 4th turret slot 2
You have 4 turrets and a launcher.
The retribution just has 4 turrets. Why don't you look at other ships to see what race has the most turrets.....hmm, i wonder.
TomB has said that amarr are basically the turret *****s of eve.
1 midslot just doesn't cut it for PVP, it's ****.
1 more turret, 1 more mid, cut that 5th low out.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2005.02.05 20:57:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Parallax Error
the Vengeance beats the Retrib hands down for PvE as well.
The vengeance is a bad joke man.
A malediction does more damage then it ffs. It has no damage bonus period. Piece of ****.
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Marnix
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Posted - 2005.02.05 20:58:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Ocularis
Ive been looking into this...
Cruisader:
Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% reduction in Small Energy Turret capacitor use and 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage per level
Interceptors Skill Bonus: 5% reduction in Signature Radius and 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret Tracking Speed per level
Total: 50% less cap use for guns, 25% more damage to guns, 25% better tracking
Retribution:
Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% reduction in Small Energy Turret cap use, 15% bonus to Shield and Armor Explosive resistance and 10% bonus to Shield and Armor Kinetic resistance per level
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Energy Turret optimal range and 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage per Level.
Total: 50% less cap use for guns, 50% more range to guns, 25% more damage to guns
Looks pretty even to me on damage apart from the range & tracking bonus - so no, i dont think it can do more damage personally (this is assuming interceptor and assault skills at level 5) 
Exactly, its assuming Assault skill at level5. The Crusader gets the 25% damage from FRIGATE 5, which is required. The Retribution gets it as 5% per Assault ship skill level. Which means it will be at 20%.
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Marnix
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Posted - 2005.02.05 21:00:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Parallax Error
Edited by: Parallax Error on 05/02/2005 20:09:39
Actually you can PvP in an Arbitraor, but thats beside the point.
The Retribution is an inflexible hunk of junk and is pretty much worthless for anything other than level 3 missions. I don't mind the level 1 cruisers being a waste of time for PvP, but a tech 2 assault ship that is gimped for PvP compared to every other assault frig out there?
Aye, you can PvP in an Arbitrator. But there's simply too many ships that can do it better. With Amarr Cruiser at 5 and Gallente Cruiser 3, ill take a Thorax or Vexor over that Arbitrator anyday in PvP.
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Ocularis
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Posted - 2005.02.05 21:15:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Marnix
Exactly, its assuming Assault skill at level5. The Crusader gets the 25% damage from FRIGATE 5, which is required. The Retribution gets it as 5% per Assault ship skill level. Which means it will be at 20%.
Are you sure thats correct?
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Marnix
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Posted - 2005.02.05 21:19:00 -
[37]
Retribution:
Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% reduction in Small Energy
Turret cap use, 15% bonus to Shield and Armor Explosive
resistance and 10% bonus to Shield and Armor Kinetic
resistance per level
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Energy Turret
optimal range and 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage
per level
Crusader:
Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus: 10% reduction in Small Energy
Turret capacitor use and 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret
damage per level
Interceptors Skill Bonus: 5% reduction in Signature Radius and
5% bonus to Small Energy Turret Tracking Speed per level
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Ocularis
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Posted - 2005.02.05 21:20:00 -
[38]
yes, thats what i posted... but you have to have the both skills at level 5... which means even for level 1 you get 5% bonus before as soon as you fly the ship?!?
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Parallax Error
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Posted - 2005.02.05 21:20:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Meridius
The vengeance is a bad joke man.
A malediction does more damage then it ffs. It has no damage bonus period. Piece of ****.
Not going to deny that, but its better than the Retrib
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Marnix
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Posted - 2005.02.05 21:25:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Ocularis
yes, thats what i posted... but you have to have the both skills at level 5... which means even for level 1 you get 5% bonus before as soon as you fly the ship?!?
Both ships require Frigate 5 yes. But the Retribution does not get a damage bonus for Frigate 5, it gets the cap use and resistance bonus. The Crusader on the other hand DOES get it from Frigate 5. Which means that, in reality, the Crusader will have 25% (Since everyone has Frigate 5) but the Retribution will have 20%. (Since everyone has Assault ships 4)
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Ocularis
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Posted - 2005.02.05 21:28:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Marnix
Both ships require Frigate 5 yes. But the Retribution does not get a damage bonus for Frigate 5, it gets the cap use and resistance bonus. The Crusader on the other hand DOES get it from Frigate 5. Which means that, in reality, the Crusader will have 25% (Since everyone has Frigate 5) but the Retribution will have 20%. (Since everyone has Assault ships 4)
I said based on BOTH skills being level 5... in which case it does the same amount of damage. And not everyone has it at level 4... 
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Marnix
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Posted - 2005.02.05 21:30:00 -
[42]
I know you said that. I said that in reality noone will have that.
Anyone training Assault ships to level5 is, in my honest opinion, retarded. Unless you've run out of all gunnery skills to train (As in all gunnery to lvl5), All Navigation and all racial Spaceship command. And then you're still better off training something else.
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Bad'Boy
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Posted - 2005.02.05 21:33:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Marnix
I know you said that. I said that in reality noone will have that.
Anyone training Assault ships to level5 is, in my honest opinion, retarded. Unless you've run out of all gunnery skills to train (As in all gunnery to lvl5), All Navigation and all racial Spaceship command. And then you're still better off training something else.
go take a nap
B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling
"Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
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Ocularis
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Posted - 2005.02.05 21:34:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Ocularis on 05/02/2005 21:34:45
Originally by: Marnix
I know you said that. I said that in reality noone will have that.
Anyone training Assault ships to level5 is, in my honest opinion, retarded. Unless you've run out of all gunnery skills to train (As in all gunnery to lvl5), All Navigation and all racial Spaceship command. And then you're still better off training something else.
Level 5 is needed for Heavy Assault Ships...
Edit: no its not, my bad! 
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Marnix
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Posted - 2005.02.05 21:35:00 -
[45]
Actually no, im bored silly.
But since were dragging this offtopic, i see you've found a new corp?
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Bad'Boy
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Posted - 2005.02.05 21:45:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Marnix
Actually no, im bored silly.
But since were dragging this offtopic, i see you've found a new corp?
yes...and if you'r bored go kill something
B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling
"Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
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Marnix
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Posted - 2005.02.05 21:46:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Bad'Boy
Originally by: Marnix
Actually no, im bored silly.
But since were dragging this offtopic, i see you've found a new corp?
yes...and if you'r bored go kill something
Rest assured, i'm trying. Problem is, apparently most Apoc pilots run from a lone Thorax.  Piracy isn't easy these days.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2005.02.05 22:02:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Meridius on 05/02/2005 22:03:32
Uhh.
The Crusader gets a base 25% damage bonus the second you can actually use one (interceptors level 1).
The Retribtuion will give you a 5% dmg bonus the second you can use it (assaults shits level 1).
So you have to train it to lvl5 to get match the damage bonus of an interceptor
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Garramon
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Posted - 2005.02.05 22:15:00 -
[49]
There seems to be something not taken into account here.
Head to Head, a retribution will crush its interceptor partner. Why? Irregardless of the interceptor damage being slightly higher, the AF has far better defense (HP and Resist).
I am sorry you don't know how to use a utility high slot.
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Marnix
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Posted - 2005.02.05 22:19:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Garramon
There seems to be something not taken into account here.
Head to Head, a retribution will crush its interceptor partner. Why? Irregardless of the interceptor damage being slightly higher, the AF has far better defense (HP and Resist).
I am sorry you don't know how to use a utility high slot.
No, it wont. But let me explain:
A Crusader that DOES engage a Retribution can, if it's losing, either chose to run. (Using its speed) or choose to go in so close that the Retribution is unable to hit it. The Retribution can only counter one of those. It can carry a web, and the Crusader that goes close will die. If it stays. But it wont, since said Retribution wont be able to hold him down. Likewise, if it carries a Scrambler, it wont be able to web the Crusader, and thus have trouble taking it down. Sure it will hit, but not constantly.
May i also remind you, that a Retribution has NO resistance bonus towards either EM or Thermal? The Crusader only has to chew through a tad more HP, which means a few additional seconds. Woohoo.
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Ocularis
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Posted - 2005.02.05 22:26:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Marnix
May i also remind you, that a Retribution has NO resistance bonus towards either EM or Thermal? The Crusader only has to chew through a tad more HP, which means a few additional seconds. Woohoo.
isnt that why you tank for EM and Thermal... so you have coverage of all 4 damage types... 2 with bonus' and 2 with hardners of some sort? I thought thats what all those low slots were for, to make it a great tank?
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Marnix
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Posted - 2005.02.05 22:28:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Ocularis
Originally by: Marnix
May i also remind you, that a Retribution has NO resistance bonus towards either EM or Thermal? The Crusader only has to chew through a tad more HP, which means a few additional seconds. Woohoo.
isnt that why you tank for EM and Thermal... so you have coverage of all 4 damage types... 2 with bonus' and 2 with hardners of some sort? I thought thats what all those low slots were for, to make it a great tank?
Yea, sure. Though i doubt someone will run around with both an EM and a Thermal hardner. Generally, 1 Small II and 1 Passive Thermal seems the flavour of the month.
Not what id call a proper tank, but thats the problem with that setup. The Retribution is capable of a better tank, and due to the lacking offensive, i'd focus on that.
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Alejandro Zapata
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Posted - 2005.02.05 22:53:00 -
[53]
Sorry to be the master of the obvious, but some people seem to need the help.
Quote:
I am sorry you don't know how to use a utility high slot.
Ofcourse we could dump the Medium Pulses that most use and put in Dual Light Pulses, and then put a Nos or Smartbomb there, (MAYBE, not sure about grid/cpu requirements) but why should every other 5 slot assault get to fill its high slots with turrets and a missile launcher?
You can say ignorant stuff like the above quote, but unless you can come up with a reason why the Retribution should be held back in such a way, then you are saying nothing of consequence.
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Ocularis
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Posted - 2005.02.05 22:54:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Marnix
Yea, sure. Though i doubt someone will run around with both an EM and a Thermal hardner. Generally, 1 Small II and 1 Passive Thermal seems the flavour of the month.
Not what id call a proper tank, but thats the problem with that setup. The Retribution is capable of a better tank, and due to the lacking offensive, i'd focus on that.
Thats what i run 1 Small II, 2 Energized plates, cap relay, heat sink II (or non-energized thermal, depending on mood)  I could run hardners but this way i dont have to worry about cap and i still get a pretty good resistance setup.
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Phades
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Posted - 2005.02.05 22:55:00 -
[55]
Multiple active hardeners would be replacing the slots used for cap relays for sustaining the tank or replacing any heat sinks. Running 2 hardeners, tech 2 armor repairer, and 4 tech2 meduim pulses would put the ship at just over 16.3 cap per second used. Fitting 1 cap relay and having max cap skills the ship would have a base recharge of just over 4.86 cap per second. Sure i guess you could not run the armor repairer constantly, but its still slightly slower than a shield booster even with max skills, making it a little akward to spot heal the damage and under fire from a larger class of ship, it wouldnt be an option to not run it constantly (depending on the range and speed).
Having a 4th bonus on the retribution would help in the comparison against the crusader in terms of damage, if a rate of fire or second damage bonus was applied. Fitting wise, i would prefer a second mid slot over a 5th turret, but i doubt the fittings will change. Comparisons against other assault ships of the same calibur (damage dealers) is difficult due to the race themes in both fittings and attributes. My first thought when i was observing the basic fitting options of most of the assault ships, was that the single missile tube, was intended for missile defense against heavier missile types. Which would allow for the ship's signature and speed to help mitigate against turret damage in addition to the resistance bonuses. The retribution and the ishkur lack this quality. Both races are primarially turret heavy, but i dont think that a smart bomb is an adequate alternative in these ships in both offensive and defensive capability.
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Alejandro Zapata
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Posted - 2005.02.05 22:56:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Alejandro Zapata on 05/02/2005 23:10:38
Edited by: Alejandro Zapata on 05/02/2005 22:59:05
Quote:
Though i doubt someone will run around with both an EM and a Thermal hardner.
I run two active hardeners while doing level three missions. I know I don't really NEED the extra resistance but it is a nice security blanket in some of those less than optimal situations. (Angel Missions) And my Capacitor holds up just fine, I run the AB, 4 MedPulseII, 1 sm Arm rep II, 2 Active hards, and 2 cap relays. It is not forever tho, but most of the opponents in Lvl 3 Missions don't last long enuf to make it a problem.
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Marnix
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Posted - 2005.02.05 23:17:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Alejandro Zapata
I run two active hardeners while doing level three missions. I know I don't really NEED the extra resistance but it is a nice security blanket in some of those less than optimal situations. (Angel Missions) And my Capacitor holds up just fine, I run the AB, 4 MedPulseII, 1 sm Arm rep II, 2 Active hards, and 2 cap relays. It is not forever tho, but most of the opponents in Lvl 3 Missions don't last long enuf to make it a problem.
If you'd bothered to read what i said exactly, you wouldve realised that I am a fan of doing this aswell. Running passive hardners doesnt cut it in my honest opinion. The only reason to use Passive is if youre afraid to get nossed. But then you should get out anyway.
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Parallax Error
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Posted - 2005.02.06 01:02:00 -
[58]
I think we need a quick lesson for all the retards out there on why the Retrib is a big pile of pants.
1) Its firepower is aneamic compared to the Amarr Interceptors. This is not up for discussion, its a fact! The Retribution is the only Assault frigate that cannot outdamage 'smaller brother interceptor'.
2) It only has one midslot. For those of you who think this isn't a big deal, you obviously have never tried to use a 1 midslot ship. Its such a handicap its not funny, even George W Bush could understand how much this gimps a ship.
3) It cannot tank in PvP. Now this one might require the use of ones brain to try and understand... be prepared for the headache children, your about to experience logic and reasoning. If you try to fit a half decent tank setup, you will have to use a midslot recharger, otherwise you will not be able to run a tank setup. If you sacrifice your midslot to a cap module.. you are stuck at base speed.
A Retrib running at base speed is not fast, infact its 900 armour hp's, small repper 2 and 65% average resists mean diddly squat in a fire fight (1 exception which i will descuss soon) as you will not be able to move quickly enough to avoid fire from larger weapons, missile aimed at you or drones.
4) An extension of the midslot conundrum. I mentioned above there is one situation where a Retrib can tank in a PvP situation, when you come across a couple of frigates or a lone Inty. You think you can kill that without warp and webbing? Only if the pilots your fighting are complete idiots, if we balanced EVE based on moronic pilots.....
5) People seem to be extoling the virtues of the Retrib in a PvE situation. Once again this is a load of crud, due to the now infamous lone midslot you have to completely hamstring any setup.
This ship is in dire need of help. It's tanking is screwed by the fact it has to sacrifice either sustainable cap, or the speed a frigate *must* have to be useful in PvP. It cannot have both! For it to work with 1 midslot it would need to carry firepower above and beyond anything else in its class as the only possible role it can have is fire support, and then we are talking the ability to carry 6 Medium Pulse 2's.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.02.06 01:12:00 -
[59]
Taranis will outdamge most Aussault frigs 
Wanna fly with me?
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Mortuus
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Posted - 2005.02.06 01:51:00 -
[60]
Actually I think its because people keep using assault like big ceptors.They are not made for 1v1 but more as a defensive platform or damage dealer for a group.
Take my Wolf with 4 280's tech2. She can't catch anything, however with a 30km range it can still hit an orbiting ceptor. Actually she doesn't even tank, just 1 repairer. But with tracking enhancer 2 and gyro2 coupled to my midslot web she kills just about any frigate class ship very very fast.
I find that the use I put it to and the way I set it to take advantage of that use makes it a damned nice ship. When I want flexibility over firepower I take my Jaguar out.
Whats different about the Ret, it has better resists on armor than my wolf, mounts the same number of weapons and can still do very nice damage. Sure it has 1 mid slot, if you need that for recharge you might have an issue, but 5 lows means you don't. If you are using it for an AB...well, get used to it, these are not ceptors. Not sure what your problem is but its made as support ship to keep other frigates, ceptors and yes drones off your buddies.
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