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Arthur Frayn Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.05 14:49:00 - [1] Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 05/04/2011 14:49:41 It has been two years since Tech 3 cruisers were introduced. Four years since the last tech 2 ships were introduced. Tech two modules were introduced eight years ago and nothing new has been seen since. The sad fact is that technological development in Eve does not exist, except for what trickles out of the anus of CCP's design department. Players should not still be flying around in Tech 1 ships at this stage of the game. The manufacturing cost of Tech 2 ships and above is an utter joke. The lack of new Tech 3 ships and modules is the biggest joke of all. We are all in a developer-imposed technological stagnation, while the CCP staff come up with new ways to ruin nullsec and alliance warfare while pushing a new generic FPS that won't even rate next to the gaming industry leaders. CCP needs to do something about this. We all know they're desperately trying to stop Incarna from becoming vaporware to the point where it will never live up to anybody's expectations when it finally gets here. For the next expansion, CCP needs to take a good long look at what makes Eve worth playing - finding new and exciting ways for players to blow each other up. I noticed how nobody seems to care or notice that we're living in the internet spaceship game equivalent of using 1920's technology in the 21st century. It's time you people started caring and noticing. This is serious business! -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Jennifer Starling Imperial Navy Forum Patrol	Posted - 2011.04.05 14:55:00 - [2] But .. but .. didn't you get the great and wonderful PI technology??
Arthur Frayn Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.05 14:58:00 - [3] Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 05/04/2011 14:58:20 Originally by: Jennifer Starling But .. but .. didn't you get the great and wonderful PI technology?? This has nothing to do with new and exciting ways for players to blow each other up. Come on, keep your eye on the ball here! -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Jennifer Starling Imperial Navy Forum Patrol	Posted - 2011.04.05 15:01:00 - [4] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Originally by: Jennifer Starling But .. but .. didn't you get the great and wonderful PI technology?? This has nothing to do with new and exciting ways for players to blow each other up. Come on, keep your eye on the ball here! I'd rather have more ways to make PvP exciting in the first place than more ships to not blow each other up because people cower at the idea that their perfect killboard may be contaminated or blobbing 100 vs 1.
RaTTuS BIG Gentlemen's Agreement	Posted - 2011.04.05 15:04:00 - [5] Notcis ? -- Join BIG
Arthur Frayn Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.05 15:05:00 - [6] Originally by: Jennifer Starling I'd rather have more ways to make PvP exciting in the first place than more ships to not blow each other up because people cower at the idea that their perfect killboard may be contaminated or blobbing 100 vs 1. Just because others refuse to fly reckless doesn't mean you have to imitate their behaviour. Think outside the box! Fly that Vargur into the 30 man gatecamp in Tama! -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Arthur Frayn Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.05 15:07:00 - [7] Originally by: RaTTuS Notcis ? Originally by: Arthur Frayn except for what trickles out of the anus of CCP's design department. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Ioci Gallente Morrigna Order	Posted - 2011.04.05 15:07:00 - [8] Originally by: Jennifer Starling Originally by: Arthur Frayn Originally by: Jennifer Starling But .. but .. didn't you get the great and wonderful PI technology?? This has nothing to do with new and exciting ways for players to blow each other up. Come on, keep your eye on the ball here! I'd rather have more ways to make PvP exciting in the first place than more ships to not blow each other up because people cower at the idea that their perfect killboard may be contaminated or blobbing 100 vs 1. I bet if they made a ship that couldn't be scrambled at all? People would fight. Wouldn't be many kill mails but you would see fighting and that's a first step, no?
Arthur Frayn Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.05 15:21:00 - [9] Originally by: Ioci I bet if they made a ship that couldn't be scrambled at all? People would fight. Wouldn't be many kill mails but you would see fighting and that's a first step, no? Making scramblers chance-based like ecm would be better. -- Eventus stultorum magister.

CCP Spitfire C C P C C P Alliance	Posted - 2011.04.05 15:24:00 - [10] Moved from 'EVE General Discussion'. Spitfire Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online


Arthur Frayn Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.05 15:32:00 - [11] Originally by: CCP Spitfire Moved from 'EVE General Discussion'. You mean kicked somewhere that nobody will notice or talk about it. It wasn't a suggestion for a new feature, it was a demand for action from CCP. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Mithrasith	Posted - 2011.04.05 15:38:00 - [12] Edited by: Mithrasith on 05/04/2011 15:39:05 Originally by: Arthur Frayn Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 05/04/2011 14:49:41 It has been two years since Tech 3 cruisers were introduced. Four years since the last tech 2 ships were introduced. Tech two modules were introduced eight years ago and nothing new has been seen since. The sad fact is that technological development in Eve does not exist, except for what trickles out of the anus of CCP's design department. Players should not still be flying around in Tech 1 ships at this stage of the game. The manufacturing cost of Tech 2 ships and above is an utter joke. The lack of new Tech 3 ships and modules is the biggest joke of all. We are all in a developer-imposed technological stagnation, while the CCP staff come up with new ways to ruin nullsec and alliance warfare while pushing a new generic FPS that won't even rate next to the gaming industry leaders. CCP needs to do something about this. We all know they're desperately trying to stop Incarna from becoming vaporware to the point where it will never live up to anybody's expectations when it finally gets here. For the next expansion, CCP needs to take a good long look at what makes Eve worth playing - finding new and exciting ways for players to blow each other up. I noticed how nobody seems to care or notice that we're living in the internet spaceship game equivalent of using 1920's technology in the 21st century. It's time you people started caring and noticing. This is serious business! If you havent noticed many of the players have been screaming for CCP to balance the current issues in the game BEFORE adding new items to it. We've got an un-balanced mess at the moment that needs to be un-tangled BEFORE they add new siny's. The feeddback on that has been clear and overhwleming Lastly - New players should be flying around in Tech 1 ships (not T2 or T3), so Im not sure what you are ferring to there
Carey Amor Amarr Metaphysical Utopian Society Explorations	Posted - 2011.04.05 15:40:00 - [13] If they do I want new ships not just repaints
Arthur Frayn Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.05 15:45:00 - [14] Originally by: Mithrasith If you havent noticed many of the players have been screaming for CCP to balance the current issues in the game BEFORE adding new items to it. We've got an un-balanced mess at the moment that needs to be un-tangled BEFORE they add new siny's. Wrong. Nothing can truly ever be balanced. It's a myth. There has never been a point in Eve's history that everything was perfectly balanced, and CCP was happy to release T2 and T3 all through that. Balance is not possible - but even if it were, that's no reason to refrain from moving forward. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Horizonist Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet Yulai Federation	Posted - 2011.04.05 15:53:00 - [15] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Originally by: Mithrasith If you havent noticed many of the players have been screaming for CCP to balance the current issues in the game BEFORE adding new items to it. We've got an un-balanced mess at the moment that needs to be un-tangled BEFORE they add new siny's. Wrong. Nothing can truly ever be balanced. It's a myth. There has never been a point in Eve's history that everything was perfectly balanced, and CCP was happy to release T2 and T3 all through that. Balance is not possible - but even if it were, that's no reason to refrain from moving forward. Nobody is asking for perfect balance, but there are critical issues right now that need to be seen to before new stuff is added. Keywords include Hybrids, Gallente, and Supercarriers.
Flynn Fetladral Caldari BlackSite Prophecy	Posted - 2011.04.05 16:01:00 - [16] Edited by: Flynn Fetladral on 05/04/2011 16:01:37 "We want old stuff fixed over new content". "We want new content!" Why do we need better and better ships!? For one thing new modules were last added in Incursion, which was pretty recently if I remember correctly. T1 ships are awesome. T2 ship prices are dictated by the player economy, and player interaction, not CCP. And to be honest, even when CCP gets around to adding more T3 ships their prices will be high, and will stay high (i hope). Follow Flynn on Twitter
Arthur Frayn Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.05 16:05:00 - [17] Originally by: Horizonist Nobody is asking for perfect balance, but there are critical issues right now that need to be seen to before new stuff is added. Keywords include Hybrids, Gallente, and Supercarriers. Supercarrier jump range and hitpoints are getting nerfed. Fix hybrids? You can't, unless you double their optimal and falloff. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Horizonist Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet Yulai Federation	Posted - 2011.04.05 16:15:00 - [18] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Supercarrier jump range and hitpoints are getting nerfed. Can you reference that? I don't keep up with the news too much. Originally by: Arthur Frayn Fix hybrids? You can't, unless you double their optimal and falloff. There are several ways to fix Hybrids, and there are several threads out there turning the options over. doubling optimal and falloff is not a feasible solution, what needs to be analyzed is the niche and role of hybrids. As it is, they are just bad Projectiles which, to add injury to insult, take cap to cycle.
Arthur Frayn Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.05 16:16:00 - [19] Originally by: Flynn Fetladral Why do we need better and better ships!? Because unlike your imagination, technology has limitless potential. Originally by: Flynn Fetladral For one thing new modules were last added in Incursion, which was pretty recently if I remember correctly. Capital modules only, correct? Originally by: Flynn Fetladral T2 ship prices are dictated by the player economy, and player interaction, not CCP. T2 ship prices are dictated by the moon goo yield which is arbitrarily set by CCP. If CCP were to increase it tenfold, you would see a 90% reduction in T2 ship prices. Originally by: Flynn Fetladral even when CCP gets around to adding more T3 ships their prices will be high, and will stay high (i hope) Increase sleeper salvage yield tenfold. Same result in prices. T2 and T3 will become commonplace, the way technology is supposed to do over time. CCP have complained before that T3 ships are more expensive than T2 when they intended the opposite. They must all be huffing paint because they didn't notice that for T3 to be cheap, the resources to build them must be as plentiful as asteroids in highsec. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Horizonist Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet Yulai Federation	Posted - 2011.04.05 16:21:00 - [20] Originally by: Arthur Frayn T2 ship prices are dictated by the moon goo yield which is arbitrarily set by CCP. If CCP were to increase it tenfold, you would see a 90% reduction in T2 ship prices. What he means is that prices are dicated by the way the player-driven market values and provides resources, which is entirely correct. It is true that CCP arbitrarily "set" prices by controlling how many sources of raw material are available, but the same applies to ALL resources in Eve. Originally by: Arthur Frayn CCP have complained before that T3 ships are more expensive than T2 when they intended the opposite. Please, reference this, because it is quite a fantastic claim, especially in regard to just how powerful T3s are.

Gimmy Rotten	Posted - 2011.04.05 16:21:00 - [21] Edited by: Gimmy Rotten on 05/04/2011 16:21:58 T3 ships really need the ability to refit subsystems in POS. Indeed, IRL we are in 2011 and I would like to pilot a 1923 Bugatti Type 35b Crosthwaite. So no, I don't care of major increased of ships technology, Jovians or others give us new ships on occasions.
Arthur Frayn Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.05 16:28:00 - [22] Originally by: Horizonist What he means is that prices are dicated by the way the player-driven market values and provides resources, which is entirely correct. It is true that CCP arbitrarily "set" prices by controlling how many sources of raw material are available, but the same applies to ALL resources in Eve. Asteroids are plentiful, hence T1 ships are dirt cheap. Moon goo should be far more plentiful than it is. Plentiful resources will lead to oversupply and price wars to get them sold. It has the added bonus of boosting nullsec. Originally by: Arthur Frayn Please, reference this, because it is quite a fantastic claim, especially in regard to just how powerful T3s are. It was from a dev blog that came out shortly after Apocrypha. CCP expressed dismay because T3 ships were meant as an alternative to T2 that required shorter skill training time and would be cheaper to produce. But if you think I'm going to search for a 2009 dev blog to back this up, you must be assuming I'm desperate for you to believe my claim. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Horizonist Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet Yulai Federation	Posted - 2011.04.05 16:51:00 - [23] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Asteroids are plentiful, hence T1 ships are dirt cheap. Moon goo should be far more plentiful than it is. Plentiful resources will lead to oversupply and price wars to get them sold. It has the added bonus of boosting nullsec. It also has the added effect of making T2 dirtcheap and thus take yet another step to render the majority of T1 ships obsolete. Do we want that? Why after all should I fly a BC when I can just get Command Ship for about the same price, in this scenario? The balance is fine as it is, there really is no need to change it. Originally by: Arthur Frayn It was from a dev blog that came out shortly after Apocrypha. CCP expressed dismay because T3 ships were meant as an alternative to T2 that required shorter skill training time and would be cheaper to produce. But if you think I'm going to search for a 2009 dev blog to back this up, you must be assuming I'm desperate for you to believe my claim. Not at all, but it is good form to source statements like this when you make them. I believe CCP must have seen the error of this claim themselves. T3s are very powerful, and do deserve to be both more expensive and harder to produce then T2. Again, a balance which really needs no change.
shadowace00007 Amarr Beyond The Gates	Posted - 2011.04.05 16:57:00 - [24] I disagree. They have new things all the time. T3s are still relatively new. Saying that, I also know of a New Min BS that will be named the Tornado. They had a contest for the ship model and it won they are planning on new ships but your looking at alot of steps from start to finish. My guess is we wont see more T3 ships for some time, just look at the work they put into the current T3s. The coding is ridicules. Just calm down and what for CCP they got our backs making games takes time. Look at how long Duke Nukem forever took to come out and its not nearly as complex as Eve. ----------- Born Amarr, Raised Minmatar.
Flynn Fetladral Caldari BlackSite Prophecy	Posted - 2011.04.05 16:57:00 - [25] Originally by: Gimmy Rotten Edited by: Gimmy Rotten on 05/04/2011 16:21:58 T3 ships really need the ability to refit subsystems in POS. I thought that change was coming with tomorrows patch??? Follow Flynn on Twitter
Arthur Frayn Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.04.05 17:04:00 - [26] Edited by: Arthur Frayn on 05/04/2011 17:08:55 Originally by: Horizonist It also has the added effect of making T2 dirtcheap and thus take yet another step to render the majority of T1 ships obsolete. Do we want that? Why after all should I fly a BC when I can just get Command Ship for about the same price, in this scenario? The balance is fine as it is, there really is no need to change it. We should want that. Why would you fly a BC when you can get a CS for the same price? Well if you don't have the skills to fly a CS, you'll fly a BC. T1 ships will never be obsolete so long as there are players who don't yet have the skills to fly T2, and those players will never run out. Answer me this: Why would I fly a CS that I have the skills for, when I can fly a much cheaper and almost as effective BC? This is my point. T2 are not effective for their price. Their price needs to drop so more people who can use them, will use them. -- Eventus stultorum magister.
Horizonist Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet Yulai Federation	Posted - 2011.04.05 17:16:00 - [27] Originally by: Arthur Frayn T1 ships will never be obsolete so long as there are players who don't yet have the skills to fly T2, and those players will never run out. Training for a T2 takes very little time, so unfortunately you are still arguing for making T1s obsolete - as soon as people have trained for T2, they will never fly T1 again, since the price is about the same anyway. The current price difference (not the skills) is essentially the only thing adding a balancing factor between T1 and T2 ships. Removing that balance will only equate reducing T1s to noobships with no long-term appeal. Originally by: Arthur Frayn Many people will say T1 ships are much more effective for their price anyway, and that's my point. T2 are not effective for their price. Their price needs to drop so more people who can use them, will use them. T2 are indeed effective for their price, it is all a question of where you are looking. Again, the price factor is the balancing factor - you pay more to get a more (sometimes very much more) powerful ship, and you take on a greater liability connected with fielding it (it will cost you more to replace it). This balance is working as intended - T2 are more expensive, they are also more effective (in most cases directly in proportion to their efficiency). If you want to risk less, you bring a T1.
Aderata Nonkin Amarr	Posted - 2011.04.05 17:27:00 - [28] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Come on, keep your eye on the ball here! I like your style Arthur. Although I must ask you what techs would you like to be introduced? It's all good to cry for more but which ones and how would it fit with the overall arch of technologies already existing in the game? æIf you are not big enough to lose, then you are not big enough to win.Æ
Karak Terrel As Far As The eYe can see Chained Reactions	Posted - 2011.04.05 17:41:00 - [29] You want new ships that do what? It's pointless to add new ships without new roles -- please consider to visit our w-space system, cake will be served immediately.
cyndrogen	Posted - 2011.04.05 18:12:00 - [30] Edited by: cyndrogen on 05/04/2011 18:12:56 How can you be this... oh whats the word.... BLUNT, OBTUSE, a space cadet??? Do you even realize what is going on in the world today? That Iceland is on the verge of financial slavery and their economy is bankrupt? The fact there is even a game from Iceland is incredible, the fact they are buying new servers and working non stop to bring you a fun MMO that delivers beyond any other developers in terms of richness and depth, is a miracle. Think you can do better? Stop whining , submit a resume to CCP and make it happen!

Johnny Lou	Posted - 2011.04.05 18:27:00 - [31] Edited by: Johnny Lou on 05/04/2011 18:28:15 Edited by: Johnny Lou on 05/04/2011 18:27:55 Originally by: Arthur Frayn We should want that. Why would you fly a BC when you can get a CS for the same price? Well if you don't have the skills to fly a CS, you'll fly a BC. T1 ships will never be obsolete so long as there are players who don't yet have the skills to fly T2, and those players will never run out. Answer me this: Why would I fly a CS that I have the skills for, when I can fly a much cheaper and almost as effective BC? This is my point. T2 are not effective for their price. Their price needs to drop so more people who can use them, will use them. I think this is a very good point. If this was a game of skill rather than isk it might be a lot more fun for a lot more people. Now, you are able to fly good ships but you can't afford them so you have to stick to T1's and work your ass off and spend a lot of time building income sources which will eventually allow you to fly (AND LOOSE) some slightly better ships... what a waste...
Horizonist Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet Yulai Federation	Posted - 2011.04.05 18:32:00 - [32] Originally by: Johnny Lou Originally by: Arthur Frayn We should want that. Why would you fly a BC when you can get a CS for the same price? Well if you don't have the skills to fly a CS, you'll fly a BC. T1 ships will never be obsolete so long as there are players who don't yet have the skills to fly T2, and those players will never run out. Answer me this: Why would I fly a CS that I have the skills for, when I can fly a much cheaper and almost as effective BC? This is my point. T2 are not effective for their price. Their price needs to drop so more people who can use them, will use them. I think this is a very good point. If this was a game of skill rather than isk it might be a lot more fun for a lot more people. Now, you are able to fly good ships but you can't afford them so you have to stick to T1's and work your ass off and spends lots of time building income sources which will eventually allow you to fly (AND LOOSE) some slightly better ships... what a waste... Eve is a game of skill AND ISK, remove the ISK element and you no longer have Eve - this is not an arena game or a first person shooter - it is a sandbox where a factions military might is not measured just in how good its pilots are, but what ships it is capable of fielding. How can you not afford T2 ships? A T2 is not that terribly expensive in comparison to what you get. For illustration, an Interceptor might cost as much as 40x more then a normal frigate, but it outclasses it in every way. You get what you pay for, hence they are more expensive. In most cases, the price is completely justified (Interceptors, Logistics, Jump Freighters...)
Johnny Lou	Posted - 2011.04.05 18:44:00 - [33] Originally by: Horizonist Eve is a game of skill AND ISK, remove the ISK element and you no longer have Eve - this is not an arena game or a first person shooter - it is a sandbox where a factions military might is not measured just in how good its pilots are, but what ships it is capable of fielding. How can you not afford T2 ships? A T2 is not that terribly expensive in comparison to what you get. For illustration, an Interceptor might cost as much as 40x more then a normal frigate, but it outclasses it in every way. You get what you pay for, hence they are more expensive. In most cases, the price is completely justified (Interceptors, Logistics, Jump Freighters...) It's not a matter of being able to buy ONE T2 ship. It's a question of how many can you afford to loose. And I am thinking about slightly more "serious" ships like T2 cruisers and bc's and bs's. Buying a T2 ship and loosing a T2 ship is not a big deal. Being able to buy and loose 10 of them within a week tends to stir things up a bit. I think a lot more people would be willing to go into battle instead of running in stations. Overall, people will spend the isk they make because, while it might be cool to be super rich with an insane wallet, it's a lot more fun to fight again and again and even test your strength against overwhelming odds. So what if the T1's become obsolete? it's a small price to pay if you ask me.
Horizonist Yulai Guard 2nd Fleet Yulai Federation	Posted - 2011.04.05 18:56:00 - [34] Edited by: Horizonist on 05/04/2011 18:56:03 Originally by: Johnny Lou It's not a matter of being able to buy ONE T2 ship. It's a question of how many can you afford to loose. And I am thinking about slightly more "serious" ships like T2 cruisers and bc's and bs's. T2 ships, like T2 modules, are more expensive because they are better, and there is nothing wrong with that, it is exactly how it is supposed to be - if you want to bring more powerful equipment into battle, it will cost you more, that is just how Eve works. Originally by: Johnny Lou Buying a T2 ship and loosing a T2 ship is not a big deal. Being able to buy and loose 10 of them within a week tends to stir things up a bit. I think a lot more people would be willing to go into battle instead of running in stations. Bigger risk of losing should push pilots towards better organization, and more careful PvPing. It would actually improve quality of PvP rather then decrease it - T1 ships, on the other hand, fill perfectly the niche of more low-skilled, cost efficient PvP. Also, I know you were illustrating, but if you lose 10 T2 ships in a week, you are doing something wrong. Originally by: Johnny Lou Overall, people will spend the isk they make because, while it might be cool to be super rich with an insane wallet, it's a lot more fun to fight again and again and even test your strength against overwhelming odds. And why do you need to fly T2 to do this? What is wrong with T1? Originally by: Johnny Lou So what if the T1's become obsolete? it's a small price to pay if you ask me. No, it is not, rather, it is removing another dimension of depth and strategy from PvP, which will not add much to the game in any way, but rather make it more shallow.
Johnny Lou	Posted - 2011.04.05 19:20:00 - [35] Originally by: Horizonist stuff... All good points but, I still think that having the skills to fly good ships which you will never use outside PVE (because you would have to work hard to replace them) it's just silly (IMO). In the end I guess we can agree to disagree. After all, each has his own definition of fun
Ahz	Posted - 2011.04.05 20:11:00 - [36] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Moar! This is the solution you seek. The whole model of rolling out new "bling" every six months is well past broken. Even if CCP started doing as you suggest they'd only be stuck rolling out more crap in another year or two. Each new layer of stuff would obsolete the layers before it. The only true solution is for the players to take control and start inventing this stuff themselves. Endless innovation driven from within. People really need to start thinking in a different direction if this game is going to realize its true potential.
EDISON CLONE Minmatar Romal Mining Ventures Ltd.	Posted - 2011.04.05 20:46:00 - [37] wow...I think you really struct a nerve here. Harsh, and blunt, true, but looking at the time line...way past due.
Fredfredbug4 Gallente	Posted - 2011.04.05 21:30:00 - [38] T2 and T3 are very expensive. Even if we keep adding more technology it won't matter. People will still fly lower tech ships because they are cheaper. Until T3 ships can be as expendable as T1 ships there is no need to advance the technology.
Bender 01000010 Caldari EVE-RO -Mostly Harmless-	Posted - 2011.04.06 11:20:00 - [39] would be nice to have the ability to make each item unique by adjusting the attributes of items when you produce them.. for example you make a energy turret and you choose for more capacitor consumption and you get more range with that turret.


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