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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.06 19:46:00 -
[1]
Nyx's damage advantage helps minimize exposure for short tactical engagements. Aeon's higher EHP makes it more sustainable for fleet engagements.
The more pilots on the field, the better the Aeon looks.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.07 02:11:00 -
[2]
Sure, if you're going to die, you're going to die -- but because it takes them twice as long to run through your buffer, it'll sure save a crapload of other ships while they're shooting at you.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.07 02:34:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Aamrr on 07/04/2011 02:35:22
 Originally by: MISTER JITA
ok, the Thanatos or Archon?
Does the extra ehp matter at sub super cap level?
Archon. Not only do you get way more EHP, you also get more ehp from remote reps. Thanatos is a lol-PvE carrier and I laugh at people stupid enough to train it.
Edit: Thanatos can't triage for crap, either.
Edit2: Nor does it get the vitally important remote cap transfer bonus. Neuted ships do not tank well.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.07 02:55:00 -
[4]
Let me emphasize one very, very important fact:
The time spent training for a carrier VASTLY dwarfs the amount of time spent training your racial battleship to 5. You SHOULD NOT choose which race of capitals to fly based on what battleships you fly, especially because all capital ships have a racially-dependent skill to train, and the longer you spend in capitals the more you're locked into that race.
Think very carefully before you train capitals, because the race you choose is almost certainly going to be the race you're in. It's marginally feasible to fly different dreads/titans from your carriers/supercarriers, but...
...well, choose wisely.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.07 03:17:00 -
[5]
Well, look at it this way -- at least you didn't train for minmatar caps 
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.07 03:31:00 -
[6]
Chimera's a solid ship for what it does. It's the shield Archon, and many of the arguments for the Archon (high EHP, good repair efficiency, capacitor transfer for spider tanking) apply to the Chimera as well. I like it.
I'm not quite as fond of it, though, for a couple reasons.
1.) Most people fly armor capitals. There's a couple reason for this, but it has a lot to do with slave implants for supercapitals and 1600 plates for battleships. Armor just works better on bigger ships.
2.) Archon has more capacitor. Caldari ships have a nice capacitor buffer, but they tend to lack recharge. This makes it particularly difficult to do a sustainable triage Chimera, since you tend to run out of cap about 4 minutes in. It's workable, though.
3.) Archon has better fittings. Shield modules consume a crapload of CPU, and powergrid scales exponentially with ship size; CPU scales approximately linearly. Long story short, a triage Archon gets to use all of its high slots. Chimeras have to compromise with a smartbomb or something similar.
4.) Utility midslots. Sensor boosters and ECCM are your friend. Chimera doesn't really get to use them.
5.) Damage control unit. Spider tanking archons get to use it. Chimeras often forgo it for an extra capacitor power relay.
That said, it's still my second favorite capital ship, and if you know you're going to be with a shield alliance, knock yourself out.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.07 06:34:00 -
[7]
It'd be a slaughter either way. Slaves really don't have much to do with it.
Aeons have a somewhat larger percentage of their hit points in armor, but it's not THAT much larger. The analysis is as simple as "AeonEHP*AeonDPS > NyxEHP*NyxDPS", and slaves don't change that equation much.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.07 08:52:00 -
[8]
The point is that all those modifiers are just percentage increases. Doubling everyone's HP doesn't change the outcome (unless alpha is a legitimate concern, and FFS these are supercaps). The only real factor is that slaves only increase armor, and Aeons have a larger percentage of their HP in armor, so they get a bit more benefit.
Even without implants or gang link bonuses of any sort, a Nyx will only do 25% more damage, while an Aeon will have about 50% more hp. It doesn't take a genius to figure out who's going to win that engagement.
The only real question is whether the Nyx fleet will be stupid enough to stick around.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.10 00:33:00 -
[9]
Err...no. No it wouldn't. Learn 2 Maths.
If it worked the way you're suggesting, the double HP buff would have made Abaddons unstoppable. All it really did was nerf alpha a bit and generally slow stuff down.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.10 03:20:00 -
[10]
To be honest, an "optimal" setup would be composed of just one or the other, since the Nyxes just get primaried off the field first. It's what game theorists refer to as a Nash Equilibrium.
Adding an Aeon to a pure-Nyx fleet doesn't give as much damage as another Nyx would, and the tank doesn't matter until all the Nyxes are already dead and you've lost.
Similarly, adding a Nyx to a pure-Aeon fleet doesn't help much, since that Nyx only gets to do 25% more damage during the time it takes to kill him, as naturally he's going to be shot first. Doing 25% more damage 2/3 the time gives you only 83% as much damage. Not a good trade.
In practice, this doesn't matter -- nobody's going to be stupid enough to tell a mom pilot, "Nah, you didn't bring the right type, go home." A case of theory not matching practice, I suppose.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.10 15:41:00 -
[11]
For a more selfish analysis...
Nyxes always get primaried first, but they do more damage while they're on the field. If your alliance is paying for your super and you want to killmail *****, get a Nyx. Otherwise, get an Aeon and logoffski.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.11 01:28:00 -
[12]
Hah. If you're going to bring reps into the equation, the Aeon still wins. A 5% resist bonus correlates to 33% more EHP per raw HP. 33% > 25%.
The fact that those Aeons also have the option to use cap transfer to generate cap for their reps only makes the matchup even more hopeless.
If you applied Pantheon spider-tanking principles to Aeons, you could easily get a 33k EHP/sec tank PER AEON on the field. And unlike the pantheon setup, these Aeons would actually be able to survive a doomsday. Or a dozen...
Now, granted, the node would lag out before you'd ever actually be able to use it effectively -- any situation which requires that kind of tank will also destroy any sort of time-sensitive logistics setup. But it works on paper dammit!
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.11 02:46:00 -
[13]
Care to explain why the heck the Aeon is firing into the Hel's strong resist?
That might have something to do with your crappy analysis. 
Now let's start putting some remote repair augmentors and egress port maximizers on those Aeons, use those new meta-2 cap transfer and remote repair modules, get a proper talisman powergenerator setup...
...and as I said, each Aeon will be repping 33k EHP per second, while putting out 8000 DPS. You can put as many drone control units on those Hels as you like, but those hit points aren't going anywhere.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.11 02:57:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Aamrr on 11/04/2011 03:03:58
This is what I get for not reading such long posts in more detail. What a crappy fit...
You need 2 invulns and 4 specific hardeners, at least, which leaves one slot for SeBo. If you're anticipating remote sensor boosting, I've seen some even add an extra photon resist.
That said, your Aeon sucks. If you're going to go for a true remote rep setup, you need to do it properly, with Pantheon style remote-capacitor generation using talismans and egress port maximizers, projected onto Aeons with remote repair augmentors.
Look, I'll post a link.
Edit: and for the record, those numbers are conservative, since EFT doesn't properly handle projected talismans. Lag permitting, a group of Pantheon Aeons can permatank a group 3x their size right up until the groups get so large you can alpha through a supercapital armor buffer.
Yeah. The node will crash first.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.11 03:32:00 -
[15]
But as I pointed out earlier, the Aeon is inherently superior at capacitor generation and repping ability. So even if you miraculously "fixed lag," the Aeon would still do it better.
I would be 100% in favor of a buff to the Nidhoggur's/Hel's rep amount bonus. 7.5% at a bare minimum. 10% might even be reasonable, given lower EHP and they share, and the disastrously poor fitting of the Nidhoggur itself.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.11 03:44:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Irani Firecam
Clearly, the minmatar capitals needs a bonus that is in keeping with their racial philosophy, that is '5% bonus to max velocity per level', plus the inclusion of the much needed 1000MN microwarpdrives.
Don't you mean 1GN microwarpdrives? 
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.11 04:22:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Aamrr on 11/04/2011 04:22:38
I'm not so inclined to give them that. Minmatar are NOT known for their capacitor, and in fact it's one of the primary weaknesses of the race. There is nothing wrong with having a carrier (especially the Nidhoggur) being dependent on cap transfer. Fly with an Archon or a Chimera.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.11 13:03:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Twisted Girl
stuff
wow. That was painful to read. That said, you DO realize that resists make remote repair more effective, right? Right?! The Aeon gets 33% more out of a suicide triage than a Nyx does. Surely that's worth considering...
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.11 18:30:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Aamrr on 11/04/2011 18:30:16
Ehh, you do present a compelling argument. Fair point.
Edit: You could wait to deploy the suicide triage until after the Aeons start taking damage, but by that time you've pretty much already lost, so yeah...
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.14 00:03:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Aamrr on 14/04/2011 00:03:47
I LIKE the Aeon :(
Edit: The way it looks, I mean.
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Aamrr
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Posted - 2011.04.14 04:38:00 -
[21]
Originally by: freshspree
I have a question so I thought I should post in this thread. Shouldn't the wyvern be better than the aeon because of similar EHP plus much better passive shield recharge. I mean buffing all that shield hp with huge resists just like a rattler or scorp navy should make it tank better.
Wyvern
Shield recharge time: 40000000.5 s
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