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Tony SoXai	Posted - 2011.04.06 20:57:00 - [1] What's wrong with assault ships? Why are they rarely used and why does everyone seem to hate them?
sneakers o'toole	Posted - 2011.04.06 21:01:00 - [2] I don't hate them.
Dorian Tormak	Posted - 2011.04.06 21:05:00 - [3] what r talking aboot? bush got voted in twice who cares what some say.
Joe Cheap	Posted - 2011.04.06 21:15:00 - [4] i love them
Batelle do you	Posted - 2011.04.06 21:31:00 - [5] very slow and poor agility --------------------------------------------- EC-P8R... You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.
Ansol Gallente Origin Synthetic Industries	Posted - 2011.04.06 21:53:00 - [6] Originally by: Dorian Tormak what r talking aboot? bush got voted in twice who cares what some say. I lol'd. Thank you for making an otherwise drab thread delightful.
Lucia Wilber Minmatar Our Own Pirate Society	Posted - 2011.04.06 22:06:00 - [7] Originally by: Batelle very slow and poor agility Very slow compared to what? Interceptors? Assault ships are only marginally slower than their T1 variants (usually no more than a 10% difference in speed). Besides, in any given 1v1, an assault ship will demolish its T1 counterpart assuming pilot/player skills are equal. Unless you're using it for an application where an extra 10% more speed/agility is going to compensate for 2-4 times as many HP and double the damage output, the assault ship is going to perform better. Anyway... The Jaguar is a very good assault ship, as is the Ishkur. The Jag can get a very respectable amount of shield tank and put out nice DPS for a frigate hull while also moving pretty fast, and the Ishkur can field five light drones which is very nice for a ship that size. As for the other empires... The Retribution is pretty much broken PvP-wise with only one mid slot, and the Vengeance is required to use most of its low slots to get a decent tank, preventing it from fitting enough BCS modules to give it good gank. The Harpy is forced to fight close up (or lose a lot of DPS) but lacks the speed to effectively close distance, allowing it to be kited. The Hawk makes up for this somewhat since it can reach out to 15km with rockets, but its speed means that it'll have a hard time catching any other empire's assault ship. Fortunately, most other assault ships have to be within this range to inflict damage, so the Hawk is arguably a good assault ship in that regard.
ARES 003	Posted - 2011.04.06 22:15:00 - [8] Originally by: Lucia Wilber The Harpy is forced to fight close up (or lose a lot of DPS) Clearly you haven't heard of the frigate pwning rail harpy? afterburner, scram web, mse, 75mm rails w/ antimatter, dcu, mfs. 170 overheated dps at 10km optimal. utter ownage.
Zan Shiro	Posted - 2011.04.06 22:35:00 - [9] Originally by: Dorian Tormak what r talking aboot? bush got voted in twice who cares what some say. you stole a saying I use....lol. Let you have it. Another one i have is in recent years America has voted for mostly unsuccessful 1st place American Idols (know if I was to go for Idol...I would shoot for 5th to 2nd place lol). Af's aren't bad ships, why not liked I am not sure, fun little rides. Gonna say some jsut don't want to put the effort into making them work well. Welcome to eve....ships can rot for months to years unloved. Look at drake....no patch changes in a while, left untouched except by caldari pvp pilots until 1 corp then another started drake spamming. Think main problem with AF is to some its not an inty. Not supposed to be.
Maneck StreetPreacher Gallente haudquaquam munificus	Posted - 2011.04.07 00:14:00 - [10] Originally by: Zan Shiro Think main problem with AF is to some its not an inty. Not supposed to be. Well, that gets at the complaint. What is the AF's role? It's the heavy end of the lightest ship class.

Tony SoXai	Posted - 2011.04.07 00:29:00 - [11] Originally by: Maneck StreetPreacher Originally by: Zan Shiro Think main problem with AF is to some its not an inty. Not supposed to be. Well, that gets at the complaint. What is the AF's role? It's the heavy end of the lightest ship class. The general role of an assault frigate is basicly frigate sized support dps. And who cares if it's the heavy end of the lightest ship class? They're slow but they have the tank to make up for it. No reason for the hate man, smoke a peace pipe :)
Dr Richard Dawkins	Posted - 2011.04.07 00:53:00 - [12] Originally by: Tony SoXai Originally by: Maneck StreetPreacher Originally by: Zan Shiro Think main problem with AF is to some its not an inty. Not supposed to be. Well, that gets at the complaint. What is the AF's role? It's the heavy end of the lightest ship class. The general role of an assault frigate is basicly frigate sized support dps. And who cares if it's the heavy end of the lightest ship class? They're slow but they have the tank to make up for it. No reason for the hate man, smoke a peace pipe :) Frigates suck. There is no reason for frigate hull support dps. I say this and I still fly AFs and enjoy them, but it's the damned truth. The only reason I fly them is they are cheap and they roflstomp the metric asston of rifters I see on a daily basis.
Zan Shiro	Posted - 2011.04.07 01:15:00 - [13] Originally by: Maneck StreetPreacher Originally by: Zan Shiro Think main problem with AF is to some its not an inty. Not supposed to be. Well, that gets at the complaint. What is the AF's role? It's the heavy end of the lightest ship class. depends on af/fit and fleet/roam composition imo. In my view...af's can be make your own roles. Ship like wolf for example I might say well I got several tackles in fleet already....maybe go for a mse fit (no tackle whatsoever due to its mid slots :( ). Someone tackles, wolf comes in and shield buffer tanks while spewing 4 200 ac goodness. Its role in this case is a fast responder to a tackler that can get decent dps on target quick. No inties in fleet I am screwed obviously...so would not run this in that case lol. Inties are great tackles...if not a rail rannis though they usually need some dps incoming quick.
Georn VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD	Posted - 2011.04.07 02:39:00 - [14] Edited by: Georn on 07/04/2011 02:39:41 Originally by: Tony SoXai What's wrong with assault ships? Why are they rarely used and why does everyone seem to hate them? What? I used 3 of them for 5 days grinding lvl 2 missions. (c; Harpy, Ishkur, Retribution They are awesome! If I had balls I'd even use AFs in PvP. :D ____________ nerf metagaming, boost fun
Hiroshima Jita	Posted - 2011.04.07 09:38:00 - [15] When an fc is selecting a fleet composition for a fight, he needs a set of logis (scimitars for shield and gaurdians for armor mostly), a main type of DPS ship (Abaddons, Drakes, Maelstroms, whatever), appropriate ewar, and tackle(dictors and ceptors). Assault frigates do too little dps to be used as main DPS and they don't have sufficient damage projection. Obviously they don't provide remote reps or ewar. They are inferior tackle because they are too slow. They make good heavy tackle after the initial tackle but so do drakes, scram fit vagabonds, and neut BS. Therefore a good fc who plans on having an actual fleet fight as opposed to some ganks, will not use assault frigates. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- A solo pilot needs to make a set of trade offs. +How far they can roam. / How survivable they are encountering an enemy blob. +What targets they can defeat. +Will people be willing to engage them. +How easily they can escape a trap once they have engaged. The further you can roam, the more likely you are to encounter someone who is not trying to pvp and has made a mistake. A carebear in an anomaly who hasn't warped to a ss is an example. But you are also more likely to encounter enemy pvpers doing this. You need to be able to survive jumping into an enemy fleet if you are moving about. The more targets you can defeat, the more likely you are to win a random encounter with another player. Unfortunately ships that win more encounters do poorly at surviving encounters with large enemy fleets. Cloaky ships that do very well surviving enemy fleets lose dps compared to HACs so they are less likely to win stand up fights. You have to choose between fighting power and mobility. Ships develop reputations. If you are flying a ship with a good reputation people will be cautious about engaging you and more motivated to blob you. If you fly a ship with a ****ty reputation, people will be more likely to make mistakes or overestimate their chances of beating you. Unfortunately its only logical that ships that preform well in combat will have better reputations. You will have to choose between fighting power and the benefits of being in a wildcard/derided ship. Few people solo. You have to be ready for bait. When local explodes you have 3 options; kill the target and warp, escape while the target lives, or die. A good FC will use bait that will live long enough for support to arrive. Option #2 is what you need to plan for. Fighting outside web/scram with superior speed, ECM drones, neuting the target's point away are solutions. This is not so unfortunate because most ewar or tactcs that will allow your escape will decrease your likelihood of dying in a 'fair' fight. Sometimes you will lose fighting power. A disruptor has less ewar than a scram. Ranged weapons do less DPS. You still have to choose between your options. Assault frigates do not represent an optimal combination of tradeoffs to make useful solo ships in 0.0. +For frigates they do awful jumping into gatecamps. Still pretty good compared to things that aren't cloaky or a frigate. +They will lose to anything bigger than a destroyer if it is fit correctly for pvp. Their target is carebears and other frigates. +Some people underestimate frigates and do not fit their larger ships with the correct tools to counter them. The assault frigate orbits them at 500 meters killing them while their guns miss. Good pvpers in large ships won't hesitate to fight you because they can beat you. Frigate pilots will be hesitant because assault frigates are known for being fairly tough. +Assault frigates don't field much ewar. They can fit an AB to escape instead of an MWD but this carries significant drawbacks. They tend to need to fight in scrambler range to not have ineffectual damage. This combination is kind of meh. A vagabond trades only a bit more survivability traveling for many more targets, and the ability to bail from a fight.
Hiroshima Jita	Posted - 2011.04.07 09:48:00 - [16] A dramiel trades some combat power for the ability to escape almost all camps and withdraw from fights in progress. A battlecruiser trades the ability to survive camps for combat ability, giving it a wide variety of targets. A cloaky recon gains in ability to survive camps, ability to escape 'bad' fights and marginal combat power while losing the frigate signature radius. I'm not saying assault frigates are bad. I'm saying there isn't a compelling reason to use them beyond personal preference in a system where there isn't a clear 'right' answer. Furthermore they do not represent an extreme position in the tradeoffs. Fastest (dramiel), or most combat power (armor BS).
Von Kroll Caldari Kroll's Legion	Posted - 2011.04.07 12:05:00 - [17] Originally by: Hiroshima Jita I'm saying there isn't a compelling reason to use them beyond personal preference in a system where there isn't a clear 'right' answer. They are excellent escort ships for keeping pesky tacklers away from the heavy hitters, so that they can concentrate on other targets. Rail Harpies are probably my favorite for this--much more survivable than destroyers.
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2011.04.07 12:16:00 - [18] Because everything they can do a cruiser does better and cheaper. They are too big (sig), too fat (mass) and overall too slow (speed/inertia) to be real contenders. They are quite fun in swarms when the rare but hilarious frigate romps butt heads. EHP/DPS ratio is just right though, allows for tactical manoeuvring to impact outcome without being dragged out as is typical in fights of larger hulls.
equincu ocha Sinners.	Posted - 2011.04.07 13:08:00 - [19] Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Because everything they can do a cruiser does better and cheaper. A fully fit T2 cruisers isn't much cheaper than a T2 fit AF Also everything a HAC can do a BC can do better and cheaper, but people don't seem to think HACs are worthless. Originally by: Hiroshima Jita When an fc is selecting a fleet composition for a fight, he needs a set of logis (scimitars for shield and gaurdians for armor mostly), a main type of DPS ship (Abaddons, Drakes, Maelstroms, whatever), appropriate ewar, and tackle(dictors and ceptors). Assault frigates do too little dps to be used as main DPS and they don't have sufficient damage projection. Obviously they don't provide remote reps or ewar. They are inferior tackle because they are too slow. They make good heavy tackle after the initial tackle but so do drakes, scram fit vagabonds, and neut BS. Therefore a good fc who plans on having an actual fleet fight as opposed to some ganks, will not use assault frigates. You are correct every fleet uses logistics and bs's, no good pvpers would ever roam in small fast gangs though low-sec. To the OP, the reason people don't like AFs right now is because speed is FOTM, and af's aren't that fast. In most cases people are to afraid to commit to a fight, and thats just to much to look past for most people that talk on the forums, however I see afs all the time in low-sec so I don't think that people really hate them after all.
eXtas NibbleTek	Posted - 2011.04.07 13:09:00 - [20] they can be fun to fly but are allmost useless for pvp and most of the time I look at them like free killmails :) they are slow, heavy, low hp, low dps, easy to neut... but they can be fun for solo pvp to show what you can do with a bad ship :) af dps over t1 frigs is about 25% (in shipbonus or +1 turret) navy ships do about same dps as af's but are faster slicer, comet... af's got t2 resists but the tank isnt that grate usually around 100 dps.. a thrasher eats tru that like butter :) jaguar is a exeption that can buffer shield tank and is somewhat fast.. but its still not awsome. vengence and hawk can use rocket range to keep a other frig at range and win a slow batle but I wouldnt call them usefull for that :)

Gentle Glide the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.04.07 13:18:00 - [21] In the ever changing world of EvE PVP some things just get outgrown. In the early years up until around 09 assault ships were viable in PVP because small scale engagements were possible. I remember a 25 minute fight in a lowsec belt between AWOX in a Jaguar and Me in a Rifter taking on a Ferox. We won! That just doesn't happen in the eve we play today.
Mara Abraham Minmatar T.R.I.A.D	Posted - 2011.04.07 13:37:00 - [22] Greetings: Originally by: Tony SoXai What's wrong with assault ships? Why are they rarely used and why does everyone seem to hate them? A number of FC's in Minmatar factional warfare appreciate the speed, flexibility, and agility of frigate fleets. In such fleets, typically assault frigates and faction frigates command the lead. In that regard, they are appreciated (not hated), and often used (vs. rarely). Thank you. --- Mara Abraham http://www.factionalwarfare.info
Proxyyyy Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2011.04.07 14:01:00 - [23] Nice write up Hiroshima Jita. I suppose i agree with most of what you've wrote. Anyway, Exceptions... I believe there are 2 or maybe even 4 exceptional Assault frigates: Ishkur, Wolf, Jaguar and Harpy; In that order. The first 3 being in a class all thier own, with the Ishkur possibly being in a class above the Jaguar and Wolf. These, 4 ships are doing damage similar to 2 t1 frigates, with the Wolf and Ishkur doing closer to 3 t1 frigates worth of damage. How effective are they? I know once im able to get unto a Nano-cane or Vagabond for example, which can be done very quickly and before even getting locked if you do so within 20k. A Vagabond and Hurricanes only tools to effectively get away or destroy my ships are Neutralizer and drones. I can keep my scrambler on, even under dual neutralizer preasure of a Hurricane, without the use of nos. Although it requires alot of spamming. A single Neutralizer, would be much easier to deal with. In that particular situations, I would say the Ishkur jaguar and wolf are set apart. Those ships only need cap to run a single module that uses very little capacitor. The best options for a Hurricane or Vagabond pilot caught; is either to do some kick ass drone management, spamming warp, which would mean his neutralizer turned off my scram for a good 2 - 3 seconds, or use that opportunity to maybe get range, before i can turn my scram back on (might be able to track me with turrets at this point). This is assuming you have time to go threw a battlecruisers hitpoints, before help arrives or it's not a trap/gank = / but it's very possible to do even against REALY good pilots and has. Although, if you run into a cruiser or battlecruiser with dual small neuts like a rupture. You're very much F*&^Ked, because you will be PERMA CAPED! Mediums neuts are good for alpha'ing the capacitor of frigates and small neuts are good for keeping frigates permanently capped out. ANyways... Unlike most, i believe a assualt frigates targets are t2 cruisers and down. Cruisers have much less EHP compared to battlecruisers and often have less tools to deal with frigates. Also, these ships are better than any other frigate class in direct frigate combat. INCLUDING pirate faction frigates and are cheaper. FOR EXAMPLE: a ishkur with neutrons can do upwards of 200dps at 9k with null and drones. @ 5-6 it will do 300dps. Thats a cheaper and some would say better daredevil (drones+tank+damage selection)...
Ste Weiss modro R.A.G.E	Posted - 2011.04.07 14:41:00 - [24] There is nothing wrong with Assault Ships nowdays. It's just the fact that when someone is pointed, the blob comes to defend it. Assault Ships don't work well against the blob. Jag / ishkur / Wolf / Retribution / Harpy are all great ships good for solo if you are able to pick your target's and hope they don't have a blob with them. Ste
Corporal Punishment08 NosWaffle Nostradamus Effect	Posted - 2011.04.07 16:07:00 - [25] I like my Blarpy _____________________________________ Real men corpse tank.
Rouge Drone	Posted - 2011.04.10 00:29:00 - [26] Edited by: Rouge Drone on 10/04/2011 00:46:20 In the current metagame you are either in battlecruisers or a speed ship. The problem with assault ships is that they are neither of those. Furthermore their role of heavy tackler / anti-frig isn't very in demand. The only frigs people fly are bombers and dramiels and they aren't worth giving up another potential battlecruiser in the gang to counter.
Annie Anomie Shadows Of The Federation	Posted - 2011.04.10 00:35:00 - [27] Edited by: Annie Anomie on 10/04/2011 00:37:13 HJ's summary is very accurate. They're slow (relative to fast cruisers and most other frigs), not super survivable (you have to choose between blooming with MWD or being kiteable by BCs with an AB), have narrow target selection (there's a lot of stuff can kill AFs) and don't fill any useful niche in a gang really. Most of them I'd fly either a fast T1 cruiser or navy/pirate frigate in preference to. Comet does better deeps and goes faster than an Ishkur, Rupture is very win and does most of the things I like to do with wolves and jags a bit better. P0rkyyyy, how would most AFs fare vs. a med/small combo?
Noisrevbus	Posted - 2011.04.10 02:16:00 - [28] I think the best way to summarize the issues of the AF are to look at the Vagabond (looking at bonuses, trait, stacking and then putting into the context of roles). Is the Vagabond considered a good ship because it's good at engaging ships within it's own class? No, not that it would be poor at engaging other cruisers, but because it has a reasonable performance encountering all nominal sizes. Encountering something larger it's survivability is usually quite good, it's offensive power lend itself quite well to at least breaking a tank under stacked pressure - even from a rather defensive position (ie., get a couple of Vagas and they can punch through a Battleship tank within a reasonable timeframe, even if the BS deny them full 0-25km range control; through h.neuts, enough midslots to posess risk of heated scram or web and drone pressure). It doesn't dominate cruiser-cruiser fights, but it is strong enough to push most cruisers with direct threats (ie., it's speed, tank, gank relative to a direct counter, like a Rapier). While most things smaller, even the tougher nuts like AF's, is often a quick snack due to mobility-gank relative. AF's don't really have that to anything (barring weaker Frigates), yet still do not posess any direct singular role either (like how Interceptors and Bombers get direct or indirect role-bonuses to supplement their ship bonuses). For example, looking at Ceptors: the speed, the mwd-sig bonus and the point-cap bonus all help define it's role. It let's that class of ship do three very specific things no other ships in it's size bracket can do. Bombers have their own cut out roles through cloaking, damage, damage projection and bombs. AF and EAF mostly just have their ship bonuses to rely on, making them poor reflections of Cruiser-sized counterparts. They don't stack or scale very well, they have roles or neat little tricks (like dualprop for AF's) usurped by other ship classes and to some degree they even lack bonuses or indirect role bonuses to their Cruiser counterparts (ie., there is a cloaky Recon). Since CCP backed on the unique role bonus or trait, on the AB-speed bonus - i'll repeat the simple fix approach i've mentioned in all recent AF or EAF threads: merge covops with EAF into a cloaky prober with limited EW potential (4 bonuses, 2 ew, 2 probing; let them keep some typical cap issues etc., to take away some staying power, but give them cloaks to intergrate into stealthy strike-concepts). Then lift the AF up to Destroyer size, to deal with scaling and stacking issues - as well as reinforcing their role as anti-tackle, damage-support, secondary- heavy- or support-tackle). It's dull, but it's completely in line with the evolution of the game and relation to roles or other ship classes.
Gibbo3771	Posted - 2011.04.10 18:21:00 - [29] Originally by: ARES 003 Originally by: Lucia Wilber The Harpy is forced to fight close up (or lose a lot of DPS) Clearly you haven't heard of the frigate pwning rail harpy? afterburner, scram web, mse, 75mm rails w/ antimatter, dcu, mfs. 170 overheated dps at 10km optimal. utter ownage. lol rail harpy, "Hi I am a 75mm Railgun and I track like a 1400 Howitzer, derp" Neutron blaster harpy, null...locus rig 7km OPTIMAL WITH 6KM FALLOFF. 230+dps, 8k ehp
ARES 003	Posted - 2011.04.10 18:50:00 - [30] Edited by: ARES 003 on 10/04/2011 18:51:11 Originally by: Gibbo3771 Originally by: ARES 003 Originally by: Lucia Wilber The Harpy is forced to fight close up (or lose a lot of DPS) Clearly you haven't heard of the frigate pwning rail harpy? afterburner, scram web, mse, 75mm rails w/ antimatter, dcu, mfs. 170 overheated dps at 10km optimal. utter ownage. lol rail harpy, "Hi I am a 75mm Railgun and I track like a 1400 Howitzer, derp" Neutron blaster harpy, null...locus rig 7km OPTIMAL WITH 6KM FALLOFF. 230+dps, 8k ehp Rail Harpy - 173 dps at 10km optimal with the ability to shut down kiting frigates. Neutron Harpy - 167 dps with a 6.3 km optimal and using the longest range ammo possible no ability to own kiters and also no more fitting reqs for a rocket so that means less dps. Not only that but my Rail Harpy has enough system reqs to fit a Gistii B Type Afterburner. this is using eft with all lvl 5 skills for both ships. basicly use an ishkur if you want blasters. fit a web, no more tracking problems. or dual prop if youre in 0.0



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