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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9299
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Posted - 2012.08.31 15:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
MetalDev wrote:And then of course we move on to everyone's favorite - the real reason its an exploit. Let's say you choose to fight back. I've one shotted many a T1 frigate or destroyer and gotten away with it. 99.9% of the time they either return with a PVP fit ship and a few friends, or all of their friends who were waiting warp in and gank you, you loose everything. My point here is there's nothing - literally nothing you can do about it. You can attack - you might pop one or maybe two of them, but you'll be ganked, scrammed, and pop goes your ship. You loose.
Or you can give in, just let them have all your loot and salvage. They'll make lots of money, you'll have wasted a lot of time and lost isk. You loose. So where's the exploit?
The salvage isn't yours until you've earned it. You earn it by being the first one to successfully complete a cycle on the wreck. If you want to compete in that race, you need to come equipped for it. If you choose not to be equipped for it, then that's your choice and your loss. In fact, it's not even a loss GÇö it's just not an additional gain on top of what you've already gained. In fact, in most cases, not going for the loot and salvage means you earn more, so leaving it to them is a gain, not a loss.
Oh, and you seem to be confusing theft with salvage. Salvage is not theft or vice versa. Both have their counters.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9301
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Posted - 2012.08.31 15:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
MetalDev wrote:They risk their ship...a T1 frigate or Dessy in most cases. Cost less than 500K total. So you pop that. Then the whole fleet of people warp in and you're effed, good by marauder, navy bs, whatever you fly to do level 4's. Then they profit from that. So go get a better ship yourself while they're doing the same. If they bring logi and support, do so yourself.
Quote:The exploit is abusing a game mechanic to gain an unfair advantage over a player. GǪand where does that happen in this scenario? You have access to the same tools they do. You are also given all the opportunities and decision points you need to make it happen (or not, if that's what you want). Noting is exploited here and no unfair advantages are gained from any of the actions.
Quote:Someone stupidly said "you have to earn salvage" - if it wasn't for my guns blowing up that ship, there would be no salvage to collect. Irrelevant. You earn it by salvaging it. Period.
Unless it's in your hold, it's not yours. Your guns did not create the salvage.
Quote:Funny how loot can be yours but not salvage That's because you blew the ships up. Loot ownership is (part of) your reward for doing so. Salvage is not. Salvage is your reward for salvaging GÇö a completely separate profession and activity. You earn the salvage by being a better salvager. If you choose not to take part in that contest, or to take part with subpar equipment, then that's your choice and not something that the game needs to compensate for.
In fact, you are the one trying to ask for an exploit here: you want to passively earn right of ownership for something you haven't even done, over someone who has actively done what's needed to get that ownership.
Quote:When they steal your salvage They're not stealing it. It is not yours. Unless they take it from your smouldering wreck, it was theirs all along and you have no right to come here and complain that you didn't get something they earned. It makes as much sense as saying that they should get all your bounties LP and standings increases just because they scanned down your mission.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9302
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Posted - 2012.08.31 16:57:00 -
[3] - Quote
betoli wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:Or that people are actually getting butthurt that someone is in their mission hoovering up the least valuable stuff. Mr Epeen  depends on the NPC faction - some are not so less valuable. Oh, I don't know. It's pretty much equally awful at this point. The days of 1M+ trit bars and armour plates are long goneGǪ
GǪof course, the funny part is that back when salvage was worth something, the salvage whines mainly came from MRs in Caldari space, which consistently had the least valuable salvage. 
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9302
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Posted - 2012.08.31 17:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
Solstice Project wrote:Risking to state the obvious, but of course those with the least will whine the most when even that is taken away from them. They didn't have the least, though. They had plenty (high bounties and mass-volume LP tends to keep the cash rolling in at high speed) and got upset when an insignificant (and actually loss-creating) margin was taken away from them.
Renan Ruivo wrote:What is really funny is that the "professional" ninja salvager makes more ISK per hour than most mission runners (some days up to 80m/h), while using 1/10th of the skill points. If they manage that, it's also because they have 10+ù the actual game-playing skill of the mission runners in question, so it is as it should be.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9304
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Posted - 2012.08.31 21:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
Adeena Torcfist wrote:what i fail to understand, is, if you return fire to a thief, how his bum buddies can warp in & gank you. They can't. At most, they can come in and provide remote support (reps, sensor boosting, fleet bosting), but they can't actually shoot him GÇö only the thief can do that.
In order for the the friends in question to be allowed to shoot him, he must either steal something from them (effectively being can-flipped) or he shoot them all at once and stick around while they go and fetch something a bit more aggressiveGǪ
Of course, they could just warp in in full combat ship and provide some very tiny support to the original thief, but then he'd be pretty stupid to aggress them and give them the right to shoot him back, since the support they'll be able to bring with those kinds of ships will be relatively minor.
tl;dr: Most likely, we're not hearing the full story, as usual. The whole Gǣgot nuked by thief + friendsGǥ suggests that he fell for a canflip on top of all the other poor decisions he madeGǪ
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9307
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Posted - 2012.09.01 12:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
John Ratcliffe wrote:Why they can't just run their own missions is beyond me. For the same reason as why mission runners can't just build their own supercaps.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9307
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Posted - 2012.09.01 14:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Because the can't anchor a Capital ship Assembly array in Hi-sec? No.
Because it's a completely separate profession with a completely different skill set and a completely different reward structure, and because doing one doesn't mean you have any interest whatsoever in doing the other.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9351
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Posted - 2012.09.05 01:23:00 -
[8] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Is there a stage for missions where you're better off killing, turning in and grabbing another one rather than salvaging? I'd say somewhere around the time when you're getting, oh, 25M ISK/h or so from bounties and LP alone. That would be roughly around the same time as you're flying a properly fitted mission ship (i.e. you're no longer in a T1-fitted BS or BC).
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9493
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Posted - 2012.09.13 12:09:00 -
[9] - Quote
Annie Freemont wrote:Here's a little ownership test for ya: can you shoot the wreck without Concord blowing you up? If not, then the wreck-áloot is owned by the person who CAN shoot the wreck without being Conkordokkened. Fixed for accuracy. Compare this to the salvage, which is owned by the person having it in his cargo hold.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9497
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Posted - 2012.09.14 12:34:00 -
[10] - Quote
Doddy wrote:100% wrong, like i say don't poast if you don't understand the mecanics. Being 100% wrong is kind of Jorma's signature move. 
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Problem is that they are so risk-averse that if there's more than one character from same corp they don't do it because it's possible that they just can't press that iWin button. Who are GÇ£theyGÇ¥ in this sentence? If people choose not to do something about the theft they're being subjected to, then no, that is not a problem.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9497
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Posted - 2012.09.14 13:33:00 -
[11] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Tippia wrote:Who are GǣtheyGǥ in this sentence? If people choose not to do something about the theft they're being subjected to, then no, that is not a problem. "Ninja", "thief", "nullbear" whatever you want to call him... GǪso that makes that part of your statement incorrect as well.
They're doing it to get into fights, so the supposed problem doesn't exist: if it happens, you can do something about it, so no problem there. If it doesn't happen thenGǪ well, then it doesn't happen, so no problem there either.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9514
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Posted - 2012.09.16 15:47:00 -
[12] - Quote
Weiland Taur wrote: Everything else aside, the OP does highlight a good point in that the seperation between the wreck and the loot contained is just odd. Salvage is valuable. One of the reasons for missioning in certain regions is the potential salvage either for sale or for use. CCP has yet to make a logical explanation as to why the thing contained within the ship is property but the remains of the ship are not. They've made a logical explanation ever since it was introduced: salvaging is its own profession, not a way for mission-runners to further pad their wallets.
That's why salvage is the reward you get for salvaging, and not something you get for running missions. That's also why ninja salvagers aren't stealing anything: because they're just getting their own rewards for their own efforts, not taking or denying you yours.
Their decision makes all the sense in the world GÇö it's the complaint that you don't earn stuff for something you never did that is completely pants-on-head-[exceptional-individual].
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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