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Valator Uel Caldari Mercenaries of Andosia Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2011.04.12 11:21:00 - [61] Originally by: Mr Kidd Bah, forget TD. There's too much of an issue with logistics: large corp stages more ships to enter TD area than smaller corp. Smaller corp dies as larger corp ships finally make it to the battle. I mean, it's a good idea to deal with lag on the surface but really, I don't see any way to get around the issue that larger corps/alliances are going to be able to bring more reinforcements to the fight over a given period of time which is now being artificially lengthened in the favor of the larger corp/alliance. It'll be the death of hit & run tactics favored by smaller out numbered attacking fleets further slanting the game in favor of blobbing. Which is why in my post I suggest TD to affect surrounding systems to a certain extent: Originally by: Valator Uel As for the reinforcements problem, Time Dilation (TD) could have a knock-on effect on directly adjacent systems. For instance, if the system where the fight is taking place has a 5min delay on everything then adjacent systems could have a 2min delay and their adjacent systems a 1min delay. Otherwise I see TD to be bias to larger forces. EVE is notorious for lagging even with small number of pilots and would make hit-'n-run almost impossible to do if reinforcements are not slowed down. Instead of taking 10min to do a quick drive-by shooting you end up in a TD of 30min. It gives reinforcements 20 extra minutes to get to your system or camp exit gates. However if they are delayed in the nth-adjacent systems they will arrive "on time" when the main fleet's TD "ends", which simulates what would have happened had there been no lag. Edit: TD also offers another problem: the "have I pressed the button?" problem. You need to have a visual timer on your modules to know when they will activate and on whom. Otherwise you end up pressing the same button again and again not being sure if it is properly queued, who the module is to be activated on and when it'll activate. ------------------ empty sig
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.04.12 11:21:00 - [62] Originally by: Prt Scr As space time is affcted by faster then light warps and there are unstable WH all over the shop, he suggested that once a 'critical mass' dictated by the lag at the fleet fight is reached, new arrivals get jumped into WH space.So in future fleets will be forming and the fc will ask whos got the scanning probes before he says warp Who was this drunk dev? He needs to be fired for one of two reasons: 1) for leaking details of a monumentally stupid idea or 2) for conceiving such a monumentally stupid idea. I mean, WTF?!?
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point	Posted - 2011.04.12 11:22:00 - [63] Originally by: Prt Scr While at fan fest a drunk dev was talking about lag due to blobs, he said, the blobs will always be bigger then the hardware and or software can handle, and it will only ever get worse with current game machanics, so they looking at changing the mechanics.1st ccp wants to naturaly resrict allance sizes, making in hard for an alliance to hold vast areas of null sec. well yeah. what about coalitions? Instead having 5 HUUUGE alliances, you have 10 less HUUUGE alliances. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
The Old Chap	Posted - 2011.04.12 11:24:00 - [64] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Prt Scr While at fan fest a drunk dev was talking about lag due to blobs, he said, the blobs will always be bigger then the hardware and or software can handle, and it will only ever get worse with current game machanics, so they looking at changing the mechanics.1st ccp wants to naturaly resrict allance sizes, making in hard for an alliance to hold vast areas of null sec. well yeah. what about coalitions? Instead having 5 HUUUGE alliances, you have 10 less HUUUGE alliances. And what will there be to stop HUUUGE alliances alliancing?
Flibertygibbet	Posted - 2011.04.12 11:27:00 - [65] Originally by: Prt Scr While at fan fest a drunk dev was talking about lag due to blobs, he said, the blobs will always be bigger then the hardware and or software can handle, and it will only ever get worse with current game machanics, so they looking at changing the mechanics.1st ccp wants to naturaly resrict allance sizes, making in hard for an alliance to hold vast areas of null sec., 2nd they are developing tools to moniter the 'black loading screen of death'. Rather then arriving and dieing before your grid loads he sugested that you simply arrive 'elsewhere'. As space time is affcted by faster then light warps and there are unstable WH all over the shop, he suggested that once a 'critical mass' dictated by the lag at the fleet fight is reached, new arrivals get jumped into WH space.So in future fleets will be forming and the fc will ask whos got the scanning probes before he says warp Lol the first idea wont work because superlarge alliances will just split into however many smaller constituent alliances to make up the former numbers, with alliance leadership using alts to control them. This concept already sorta exists within the big powerblocs. Having people randomly drop off-grid into WH space is more interesting, haha.
Rixiu The Inuits	Posted - 2011.04.12 11:29:00 - [66] Originally by: Grimpak "fixing lag" is as much as a quagmire as fixing blobbing. artificial limitations only bring about exploiting, while other more "natural" limitations and mechanisms simply aren't enough. people blob because they want to fight, not because of blobbing itself. an FC can't go to the fleet and say "okay people, we can't let anymore in because we would be blobbing. X Y and Z groups can stay, the rest of you go home and log off." the very same issue happens with lag. game doesn't lag because people want to lag it. it lags because people join up till it lags. TD, as a stopgap measure to ensure a good flow on fleet battles is a good proposition. it doesn't solve lag, but it makes the game actually not missing any "hearbeats" and no breaks on gaming experience. People blob because it's easier than not to blob. [metaphor] In pre-modern times (before the 19th century) armies of men would go to a field and shoot each other until everyone died or fled (just like in eve). The size of the armies depended on how many could be mustered but more importantly on logistics (as in supplies of food and such). If it would have been possible to move an infinite amount of men to a field they would have done so. But then the field would quickly become to small (the size of the field is server performance) and they would find a bigger field until they would have the largest field they could find (server performance can't get any better) and so it is filled up to the point where the men can't move and even less be able to fight (this would be lag). [/metaphor] tl;dr they had no lag in the medieval because moving people across continents was impossible. Make force projection harder AND ask the question, why do thousands of players go to one system? Is it because the enemy brings thousands of players too? If so, would thousands still go if the enemy were unable to bring thousands?
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic	Posted - 2011.04.12 11:56:00 - [67] rofl, love the last few posts that can be tl;dr'd as 'wahhhh, my tiny piece of **** alliance doesn't have the manpower to compete with large alliances that have put effort into recruiting and diplo. CCP should make it so that 10man corps can defeat NC on their own' ...oh wait Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3
Azhpol Gallente Casa Del Wombat	Posted - 2011.04.12 12:04:00 - [68] Originally by: Rixiu Make force projection harder AND ask the question, why do thousands of players go to one system? Is it because the enemy brings thousands of players too? If so, would thousands still go if the enemy were unable to bring thousands? only way to stop this is to remove both jump clone and bridges, and even then people would travel huge distances to fight. Some people LIKE very large fleet warfare, and will travel to do it. Look at PL, they travel all over looking for the fights, and you can be fairly sure they aren't using jump bridges. Force projection is an issue, but its one that is realistic in terms of space warfare(if you accept the reality of any form of FTL). Go play some space based 4X if you don't believe me. ----------------------------------------------- Market help thread, or troll magnet?
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2011.04.12 12:12:00 - [69] Quote: why do thousands of players go to one system? Because the only way to get sov or defend sov in eve is by piling as many people as possible in a system during a few timers. Has only little to do with force projection (although granted it is an issue) and more with stupid game mechanics.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.04.12 12:41:00 - [70] As I was saying, now, with emphasis added... Since CCP can't find a workable way to encourage splitting up FOR THE TIME BEING, even if some suggestions along the lines of trying to accomplish that were given (which were not without their separate share of problems though, granted), the next best thing is slow-motion fights. _ CCP LEADERSHIP MENTALITY NEEDS TO CHANGE FAST ! "New junky features sell, old polished content doesn't" ? KILL IT WITH FIRE.

Pod Amarr	Posted - 2011.04.12 12:54:00 - [71] Edited by: Pod Amarr on 12/04/2011 12:56:12 Actually there is a third option. It would fix all lag in the game but it is too much of a system rework. Basically the whole system needs to run on a virtual layer with pieces of the code monitoring the performance the grids and then dynamically pulling resources smoothly from areas that don't need them to area that needs them. Not going to go into details but dynamic resource allocation is nothing new and the reinforced node report before downtime is really funny. If you have proper system design you can assign the resources from the whole clusters onto on grid in seconds. But this is probably too much to ask from a company that can not make a forum. Basically the only limiting factor here is how quick is "AI" that allocates the resources based on the settings and the internet connection bottleneck. Pod
Irani Firecam Gallente Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2011.04.12 12:57:00 - [72] Edited by: Irani Firecam on 12/04/2011 12:57:53 Originally by: Azhpol Originally by: Rixiu Make force projection harder AND ask the question, why do thousands of players go to one system? Is it because the enemy brings thousands of players too? If so, would thousands still go if the enemy were unable to bring thousands? only way to stop this is to remove both jump clone and bridges, and even then people would travel huge distances to fight. Some people LIKE very large fleet warfare, and will travel to do it. Look at PL, they travel all over looking for the fights, and you can be fairly sure they aren't using jump bridges. Force projection is an issue, but its one that is realistic in terms of space warfare(if you accept the reality of any form of FTL). Go play some space based 4X if you don't believe me. Removing Jump Bridges will just lead to a massive increase of Titans for their ability to bridge entire fleets around, just like what PL does. My Wallpaper
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2011.04.12 13:00:00 - [73] Originally by: Pod Amarr Actually there is a third option. It would fix all lag in the game but it is too much of a system rework. [snip] Well, yeah, they have been talking about Infiniband integration and similar for ages, but it was kinda' shelved because it was too much :effort:. _ CCP LEADERSHIP MENTALITY NEEDS TO CHANGE FAST ! "New junky features sell, old polished content doesn't" ? KILL IT WITH FIRE.
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point	Posted - 2011.04.12 13:22:00 - [74] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Pod Amarr Actually there is a third option. It would fix all lag in the game but it is too much of a system rework. [snip] Well, yeah, they have been talking about Infiniband integration and similar for ages, but it was kinda' shelved because it was too much :effort:. well creating a system that can move processing threads seamlessly across several nodes is kinda daunting. even I with 0 technical knowledge besides the very basics, can say that that is quite hard, and them delaying said project for improving software seems a feasible way to, at the very least, improve the situation a bit for the time being. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Rixiu The Inuits	Posted - 2011.04.12 13:23:00 - [75] Edited by: Rixiu on 12/04/2011 13:22:57 Originally by: Irani Firecam Removing Jump Bridges will just lead to a massive increase of Titans for their ability to bridge entire fleets around, just like what PL does. Indeed it would. Personally I would not remove jump bridges, rather restrict them to alliance only. Anyway, I may have drifted a bit off topic but in my opinion game and sov warfare design is more interesting than hurf durf "fix lag so me and my 50 000 friends can be in one system!!RAGE!" durfidurf. Time Dilation could be cool although it should be more of a stopgap of sorts than a final solution to the lagmonster. (Love your avatar btw, but I'm sure you've heard it a lot by now though )
Janu Hull Caldari Terra Incognita Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2011.04.12 13:29:00 - [76] Not a bad idea, as long as they implement it with some kind of wicked bullet-time special effect, a la The Matrix. In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point	Posted - 2011.04.12 13:37:00 - [77] Originally by: Rixiu (Love your avatar btw, but I'm sure you've heard it a lot by now though ) tattoo ruins it a bit imho. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Prt Scr	Posted - 2011.04.12 13:49:00 - [78] Originally by: The Old Chap Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Prt Scr While at fan fest a drunk dev was talking about lag due to blobs, he said, the blobs will always be bigger then the hardware and or software can handle, and it will only ever get worse with current game machanics, so they looking at changing the mechanics.1st ccp wants to naturaly resrict allance sizes, making in hard for an alliance to hold vast areas of null sec. well yeah. what about coalitions? Instead having 5 HUUUGE alliances, you have 10 less HUUUGE alliances. And what will there be to stop HUUUGE alliances alliancing? I believe CCP want coalitions rather then alliances as they are historicaly more fragile. This fragility will be increaced with the ability to charge transit fees through your controlled space. With an absence of jump gates this will make holding pipe systems an income source. Plus a new and intresting way to backstab your best buddys. He was talking about one system a corp and one constelation (or region ) per alliance, a reduction in hp for TCU,SBU, I HUB and possably POS, which would be refunded with a capital upgrade to a I HUB The return of capital systems will allow for the upgrade of your constelation....player owned gate guns
BackStreet Babe	Posted - 2011.04.12 13:59:00 - [79] its a great idea, but ccp will **** it up if/when they implement it.
FraNtik BIG Gentlemen's Agreement	Posted - 2011.04.12 14:04:00 - [80] Can we call this 'Bullet time' from now on? Much cooler name. ---------------------------------- BIG's Bloodhound "You can warp, but you can't hide"Ö

Calathea Sata State War Academy	Posted - 2011.04.12 15:18:00 - [81] Here's an idea. Make every ship's destiny ball (the invisible balls of physics collision) bigger, so ships cannot blob without creating a distance between the ships. E.g. frigates will be 2km in radius, cruisers 5km, battleships 8km, titans 50km perhaps. A blob of frigates will therefore be ships 2km apart from eachother minimum. A blob of battleships 8km from eachother. A blob of titans 50km from eachother. The distance will always depend on the smaller ship so a frigate can be 2km from a battleship, a battleship can also go next to a frigate until 2km. (Smartbombs or bomber bombs will then need corresponding balancing, of cause.)(The distances here are only an example for illustration purposes, it can be smaller or bigger.) This way blobing will actually require more skills: how to distribute ships to ensure they can all get optimal ranges (ties well with formations too, think about "form into a concave arc so everyone is 30km from the target" for example); how to distribute several RRs over the entire blob to cover everyone; how frigates can fill into the void between bigger ships to do additional damage, etc etc. I think the potentials of this idea is brilliant. I think this is an elegant solution without breaking immersion, and will actually improve the fun and skills of gameplay. This is much better than Time Dilation in my opinion.
Calathea Sata State War Academy	Posted - 2011.04.12 15:22:00 - [82] Edited by: Calathea Sata on 12/04/2011 15:24:34 The RP explaination would be "ships collision in space is fatal to the structure thus gravity emitters are installed on each ship to avoid other ships or astroids coming into contact." EDIT: started a thread for this idea in Ideas and Features.
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic	Posted - 2011.04.12 16:23:00 - [83] Originally by: Calathea Sata Here's an idea. Make every ship's destiny ball (the invisible balls of physics collision) bigger, so ships cannot blob without creating a distance between the ships. E.g. frigates will be 2km in radius, cruisers 5km, battleships 8km, titans 50km perhaps. A blob of frigates will therefore be ships 2km apart from eachother minimum. A blob of battleships 8km from eachother. A blob of titans 50km from eachother. The distance will always depend on the smaller ship so a frigate can be 2km from a battleship, a battleship can also go next to a frigate until 2km. (Smartbombs or bomber bombs will then need corresponding balancing, of cause.)(The distances here are only an example for illustration purposes, it can be smaller or bigger.) This way blobing will actually require more skills: how to distribute ships to ensure they can all get optimal ranges (ties well with formations too, think about "form into a concave arc so everyone is 30km from the target" for example); how to distribute several RRs over the entire blob to cover everyone; how frigates can fill into the void between bigger ships to do additional damage, etc etc. I think the potentials of this idea is brilliant. I think this is an elegant solution without breaking immersion, and will actually improve the fun and skills of gameplay. This is much better than Time Dilation in my opinion. THis doesn't sound ridiculously exploitable at all ...oh wait Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3
Calathea Sata State War Academy	Posted - 2011.04.12 16:42:00 - [84] Originally by: Copine Callmeknau THis doesn't sound ridiculously exploitable at all Why don't you explain Mister?
Valator Uel Caldari Mercenaries of Andosia Northern Coalition.	Posted - 2011.04.12 16:58:00 - [85] Edited by: Valator Uel on 12/04/2011 17:02:29 Originally by: Calathea Sata Originally by: Copine Callmeknau THis doesn't sound ridiculously exploitable at all Why don't you explain Mister? 1) Warp fleet/SC/Titan into the middle of enemy fleet 2) laugh at the chaos 3) ??? 4) Profit! Edit: Or heck, even warping a fleet to a gate will be chaotic. ------------------ empty sig
Calathea Sata State War Academy	Posted - 2011.04.12 17:38:00 - [86] Originally by: Valator Uel Edited by: Valator Uel on 12/04/2011 17:02:29 Originally by: Calathea Sata Originally by: Copine Callmeknau THis doesn't sound ridiculously exploitable at all Why don't you explain Mister? 1) Warp fleet/SC/Titan into the middle of enemy fleet 2) laugh at the chaos 3) ??? 4) Profit! Edit: Or heck, even warping a fleet to a gate will be chaotic. How is that different from the current mechanics?
GeeShizzle MacCloud Caldari	Posted - 2011.04.12 17:40:00 - [87] Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud on 12/04/2011 17:43:08 Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud on 12/04/2011 17:41:59 Originally by: Calathea Sata Here's an idea. Make every ship's destiny ball (the invisible balls of physics collision) bigger, so ships cannot blob without creating a distance between the ships. E.g. frigates will be 2km in radius, cruisers 5km, battleships 8km, titans 50km perhaps. lets not go into the fact that those sizes would mean every ship larger than frigates wouldnt be able to get close enough to gates to even jump. so yes we should all listen to your wise words on how to vastly improve the game. way to go to break hisec, low sec and null sec all in one foul swoop! you dumb f**k! nb - id also like to add this.... how about you stop embarrassing yourself and let the grown ups decide how the game should run as you obviously dont have the intellectual capacity to make these kinds of decisions. CSM Prop 1 CSM Prop 2
Calathea Sata State War Academy	Posted - 2011.04.12 17:42:00 - [88] Originally by: GeeShizzle MacCloud Originally by: Calathea Sata Here's an idea. Make every ship's destiny ball (the invisible balls of physics collision) bigger, so ships cannot blob without creating a distance between the ships. E.g. frigates will be 2km in radius, cruisers 5km, battleships 8km, titans 50km perhaps. lets not go into the fact that those sizes would mean every ship larger than frigates wouldnt be able to get close enough to gates to even jump. so yes we should all listen to your wise words on how to vastly improve the game. way to go to break hisec, low sec and null sec all in one foul swoop! you dumb f**k! 200m 500m 800m how does that sound
GeeShizzle MacCloud Caldari	Posted - 2011.04.12 17:44:00 - [89] Originally by: Calathea Sata Originally by: GeeShizzle MacCloud Originally by: Calathea Sata Here's an idea. Make every ship's destiny ball (the invisible balls of physics collision) bigger, so ships cannot blob without creating a distance between the ships. E.g. frigates will be 2km in radius, cruisers 5km, battleships 8km, titans 50km perhaps. lets not go into the fact that those sizes would mean every ship larger than frigates wouldnt be able to get close enough to gates to even jump. so yes we should all listen to your wise words on how to vastly improve the game. way to go to break hisec, low sec and null sec all in one foul swoop! you dumb f*k! 200m 500m 800m how does that sound so keep it pretty much exactly how it is then! shakes head in dismay* CSM Prop 1 CSM Prop 2
Calathea Sata State War Academy	Posted - 2011.04.12 17:45:00 - [90] Originally by: GeeShizzle MacCloud Originally by: Calathea Sata Originally by: GeeShizzle MacCloud Originally by: Calathea Sata Here's an idea. Make every ship's destiny ball (the invisible balls of physics collision) bigger, so ships cannot blob without creating a distance between the ships. E.g. frigates will be 2km in radius, cruisers 5km, battleships 8km, titans 50km perhaps. lets not go into the fact that those sizes would mean every ship larger than frigates wouldnt be able to get close enough to gates to even jump. so yes we should all listen to your wise words on how to vastly improve the game. way to go to break hisec, low sec and null sec all in one foul swoop! you dumb f*k! 200m 500m 800m how does that sound so keep it pretty much exactly how it is then! shakes head in dismay* 500m 2000m 4000m



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