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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.04.12 17:53:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Calathea Sata
500m 2000m 4000m
obvious troll is obvious...
+ fail cause u broke eve yet again! CSM Prop 1 CSM Prop 2 |
Avon
Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2011.04.12 19:19:00 -
[92]
As previously mentioned, blobbing is a problem because doing it is trivial.
Remove all bridges (including titan bridges) Remove WTZ Make it impossible to make WTZ bookmarks.
Much better than making lag a feature.
Retro sig |
Irani Firecam
Gallente Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.04.12 19:20:00 -
[93]
Best way to remove the ability for blobs to form is to place a hard limit on concurrent connections so that no more than 2 players can connect, that way, there is a 50% chance that they will not blue themselves and form a blob.
My Wallpaper |
Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.12 19:21:00 -
[94]
Technical solutions to human problems rarely work correctly. -- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
Avon
Caldari Versatech Co. RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2011.04.12 19:23:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki Technical solutions to human problems rarely work correctly.
True, but I'm not sure nerfing humans is going to appear in the next lot of patch notes.
Retro sig |
Windjammer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.12 19:31:00 -
[96]
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1422034 As far as I know this is the first suggestion of what is being called Time Dialation. It may answer some of your questions. Properly implemented, this will rock and is one of the very few ideas which is enjoying nearly unanimous support.
-Windjammer
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.12 19:34:00 -
[97]
I'm just saiyan that a game design change would be better than any technical change. People will fight the technical changes and find work-arounds. The next step becomes "soft" rules that enforced via EULA and TOS which just causes all kinds of headaches. If the game itself changes to make blobs inefficient then players will change their behavior. Or fail horribly. -- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
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Posted - 2011.04.12 19:47:00 -
[98]
Edited by: Chaos Incarnate on 12/04/2011 19:49:12
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Pod Amarr Actually there is a third option. It would fix all lag in the game but it is too much of a system rework. [snip]
Well, yeah, they have been talking about Infiniband integration and similar for ages, but it was kinda' shelved because it was too much :effort:.
It's been shelved, but CCP Veritas posted that he wanted to do it eventually in the IAMA programmer thing
Originally by: CCP Veritas My plan, which please understand, is just mine and may not come to pass since I'm just a programmer-guy: * Apply standard optimization techniques (algorithmic and language) until they stop coming easy. Been at this for about 4 months now, still truckin' and the wins are still huge compared to the effort needed to make them happen. * Plan out and execute a graceful degradation scheme so the server responds predictably and reasonably to being overloaded. No matter how well we do at optimization and multi-core scaling, the design of Eve allows players to just bring more ships, so this is needed. * We should be in a very good place by now, so we'd have the time to be able to undertake a big project like going multi-core that's more researchy in nature.
link
step one is what they've been doing till now step two is time dilation (hopefully the nearfuture(tm)) step three is stuff like infiniband/multicore combat engine stuff (hopefully the far future(tm)) _____________________ Look down. Back up. Where are you? You're on a forum, with the alt your alt could post like. |
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:06:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki I'm just saiyan that a game design change would be better than any technical change. People will fight the technical changes and find work-arounds. The next step becomes "soft" rules that enforced via EULA and TOS which just causes all kinds of headaches. If the game itself changes to make blobs inefficient then players will change their behavior. Or fail horribly.
There is game design changes being looked at as well. Time dilation is just one of the projects approaching from a technical angle which due to the CSM publicity following from the fanfest roundtables has been singled out. Suckiness, whether fairly distributed or not won't substitute for good gameplay experience, but will aid in the larger fleet fights where they can reasonably anticipate lag due to it being ~1500 people duking it out, as others mention, it is by no means our "golden bullet".
Tis' why gridlock got more members this year to expand its role from just code optimisation to feature and mechanic changes so we can have a hard look at all the components of eve combat and see what can be done to make it better overall. This means things like how we travel between systems, the speed and distance travelled at, the frequency of interaction events, the function of MWD and the likes. Everything is on the table in this regards to what can be done to both promote more manageable fights and handle larger fights better.
Early days, but hope that answers the question, in short: time dilation isnt the only project on the drawingboard for us and we are looking at gameplay changes.
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Mongo Edwards
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:08:00 -
[100]
How would time dilation work when leaving the dilated system(s)? If you are x minutes behind everyone else in EVE how do you "catch up" to the rest of the universe? If you leave the dilated system and your system time magically jumps to the proper time that seems to be very immersion breaking. How about eve voice will your responses be slowed down in accordance with the effect of time dilation when speaking to someone outside the dilated system?
How would region wide trade work for example if I buy something in a dilated system and inside the bubble it is 1830 but outside is 1930 does that mean my cash sits in escrow for 60 minutes x dilation factor while I wait for the system to catch up? At what time does my order clear 1930? or whatever the "universe time" is when the dilation catches up?
How about sell orders and the margin trading skill if I have an order that fills in time dilated space (say 1730 system time) but it is 1900 universe time and I just defaulted on a margin trade because my money (which would have covered escrow) was caught in a time dilation what happens then? Do I get my goods and don't default or do I still default and get all my money and then have to recreate my order.
tbh it may be much more efficient to have developers working on reducing server load as opposed to dealing with the ramifications of this sort of mechanic
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Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:16:00 -
[101]
Never meant to imply it would be a golden bullet Chrono. I think TD is boss and will make ~epic fites~ more better. But somewhere along the line this turned into a blob war argument and I was pointing out that trying to stop it with tech is the wrong approach. Good to hear ya'll are working to nerf humans. More power to you. -- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Sick Tight Controlled Chaos
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Posted - 2011.04.12 20:54:00 -
[102]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki I'm just saiyan that a game design change would be better than any technical change. People will fight the technical changes and find work-arounds. The next step becomes "soft" rules that enforced via EULA and TOS which just causes all kinds of headaches. If the game itself changes to make blobs inefficient then players will change their behavior. Or fail horribly.
There is game design changes being looked at as well. Time dilation is just one of the projects approaching from a technical angle which due to the CSM publicity following from the fanfest roundtables has been singled out. Suckiness, whether fairly distributed or not won't substitute for good gameplay experience, but will aid in the larger fleet fights where they can reasonably anticipate lag due to it being ~1500 people duking it out, as others mention, it is by no means our "golden bullet".
Tis' why gridlock got more members this year to expand its role from just code optimisation to feature and mechanic changes so we can have a hard look at all the components of eve combat and see what can be done to make it better overall. This means things like how we travel between systems, the speed and distance travelled at, the frequency of interaction events, the function of MWD and the likes. Everything is on the table in this regards to what can be done to both promote more manageable fights and handle larger fights better.
Early days, but hope that answers the question, in short: time dilation isnt the only project on the drawingboard for us and we are looking at gameplay changes.
I sincerely hope you're not looking at changing the actual mechanics of basic game play. The inclusion of "the function of MWD and the likes" in your comment is deeply troubling. Your colleagues have already proved they do not understand how a major portion of the game (0.0) works, we do not need more drastic changes of this kind.
Work under the hood all you want, just avoid changing parts of the game we already know and love.
Originally by: McKinlay When you get on the batphone and the only people left in the phone book are Aeternus and BLAST it might be time to hang up.
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Dorian Wylde
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:02:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Mongo Edwards How would time dilation work when leaving the dilated system(s)? If you are x minutes behind everyone else in EVE how do you "catch up" to the rest of the universe? If you leave the dilated system and your system time magically jumps to the proper time that seems to be very immersion breaking. How about eve voice will your responses be slowed down in accordance with the effect of time dilation when speaking to someone outside the dilated system?
How would region wide trade work for example if I buy something in a dilated system and inside the bubble it is 1830 but outside is 1930 does that mean my cash sits in escrow for 60 minutes x dilation factor while I wait for the system to catch up? At what time does my order clear 1930? or whatever the "universe time" is when the dilation catches up?
How about sell orders and the margin trading skill if I have an order that fills in time dilated space (say 1730 system time) but it is 1900 universe time and I just defaulted on a margin trade because my money (which would have covered escrow) was caught in a time dilation what happens then? Do I get my goods and don't default or do I still default and get all my money and then have to recreate my order.
tbh it may be much more efficient to have developers working on reducing server load as opposed to dealing with the ramifications of this sort of mechanic
Again, as it says in the letter, time dilation only affects local things. It does not affect things like skill training. Not very hard to assume trade falls into the same category. In fact, it would be pretty stupid to assume it would work any other way. When you leave the system where dilation is taking place, you don't notice any changes. Dilation only affects your ship, and since all your modules shut off when you jump into a new system anyway, there will be zero effect from moving between time dilation areas.
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Jacque Cruix
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Posted - 2011.04.12 21:10:00 -
[104]
Nice to hear from a Dev the level that this is being taken to.
It is a given that a small and very vocal part of the player base will dislike any changes that come about but sometimes drastic changes are needed.
We will always have the doomsayers and etc as always but everything should be on the table in the fight against lag.
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Karash Amerius
Sutoka
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Posted - 2011.04.12 22:22:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Calathea Sata Time Dilation will not work.
Formalizing lag as a game mechanic, really? That is really, really the worst way possible of fixing the problem, the problem of "whoever brings the most wins thus making everyone blobing as big a blob as possible". It will not fix the problem, only easing the syndrome, simply because of people will always try to bring as many as possible into the fight and the system will always be stretched outside its limit. Formalizing lag (Time Dilation) can ony ease out that much of lag and people will just keep bringing in more and more people until the server cannot afford the workload again. Moreover, it simply sounds ridiculous and immersion breaking.
Lag is a natural product of the current game design itself: the fantasy of unlimited numbers of ship fighting together vs the realistic capabilities of the internet and the servers. As long as bringing as many ships into the fight as possible means easier wins, people will do it. Time Dilation won't work. Instead CCP should think about the game design itself: is the concept of an unlimited amount of ships fighting realistic? Perhaps 1000 vs 1000 will not be too different than 2000 vs 2000 simply because the screen and overview cannot contain that much information? Perhaps it is not 1000 but 500? How should we discourage people going over 500, maybe we can create some mechanisms to eliminate the advantages of bringing in more than 500 ships? Etc etc, I am only illustrating an example. I am sure there are better ideas than this one; I am sure someone can think of many more better ideas. But Time Dilation is the worst solution possible.
This is by far about the worst "serious poast" I have read on the forums in quite awhile. Lag will be part of any game that is not sharded to hell and back. The only "design issue" that Eve has is that it is on one server, that is a feature. It should not be changed.
Also breaking news, nothing is perfect, and roses don't grow out of your self important ideas because you have a secret ambition to be a game designer. Let the pros do their work. There are places in this forum that require gadflys and naysayers...but lets just not all give up the ship because you deem it unworthy. ========================= Karash Amerius - Operative - Sutoka Fighting Broke - A Eve Online Blog ========================= |
Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2011.04.12 22:52:00 -
[106]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Early days, but hope that answers the question, in short: time dilation isnt the only project on the drawingboard for us and we are looking at gameplay changes.
Good, because I really don't care if others have also wait for 20 minutes for a cycle when I have to wait 20 minutes. This is just idiotic and wasted time. Knowing that everyone else has to wait that long doesn't make it better, it actually makes it even WORSE.
So this time dilatation better contains some spiffy secret sauce which speeds up things for everyone and doesn't make it equally BAD for everyone!
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SupaKudoRio
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Posted - 2011.04.12 23:03:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Yuki Kulotsuki reinforcements will not be subject to dilation until they arrive on the field.
00:00 Notify Traffic Control reports heavy dilation at your destination, it will take some time for the receiving gate to be readied for you. Jumping in: 2 minutes and 8 seconds.
Adjust delay accordingly to the level of dilation.
Ye'llo? |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.04.12 23:06:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Gnulpie
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Early days, but hope that answers the question, in short: time dilation isnt the only project on the drawingboard for us and we are looking at gameplay changes.
Good, because I really don't care if others have also wait for 20 minutes for a cycle when I have to wait 20 minutes. This is just idiotic and wasted time. Knowing that everyone else has to wait that long doesn't make it better, it actually makes it even WORSE.
So this time dilatation better contains some spiffy secret sauce which speeds up things for everyone and doesn't make it equally BAD for everyone!
no it changes it so that in a fleet fight it doesnt take 2 minutes to do the same thing that it might take 45 minutes for sometone else to do! it restores fair game mechanics to really laggy large scale fleet pvp. but there will still be the strategic decision to jump a fleet in as it would still lag the fleet jumping in more than the fleet already on grid. but just not to the rediculous amount it does currently. CSM Prop 1 CSM Prop 2 |
Yuki Kulotsuki
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Posted - 2011.04.12 23:28:00 -
[109]
Originally by: GeeShizzle MacCloud but there will still be the strategic decision to jump a fleet in as it would still lag the fleet jumping in more than the fleet already on grid. but just not to the rediculous amount it does currently.
I don't see how that's fair gameplay. Ideally everyone should be lagged equally which is what TD should do. -- Did you know there's an alliance who's name you're not allowed to say, or website you're not allowed to link? |
Aphoxema G
Megalith PMC
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Posted - 2011.04.13 00:20:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Mongo Edwards How would time dilation work when leaving the dilated system(s)? If you are x minutes behind everyone else in EVE how do you "catch up" to the rest of the universe? If you leave the dilated system and your system time magically jumps to the proper time that seems to be very immersion breaking. How about eve voice will your responses be slowed down in accordance with the effect of time dilation when speaking to someone outside the dilated system?
"Time Dilation" is just a fun sciency way of saying "every action queued by players will be accomplished in a fair order at the cost of losing realtime invokation.". This only needs to effect things like module activity and people warping into and out of grid or anything else where the consequences would be dependent on chance. ------------------------------- The fox chases for her meal, but the rabbit runs for her life. |
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