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Makie Ber
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Posted - 2011.04.13 10:53:00 -
[1]
Just curious as to which one would come out on top, in a fight of equal numbers.
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Auwnie Morohe
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Posted - 2011.04.13 11:24:00 -
[2]
As long as my hypothesis holds up they are in a fight right now and the Sleepers are winning.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2011.04.14 16:07:00 -
[3]
The Sleepers by far. The Jove are hardly a match for us let alone the Sleepers. From what we have seen 1 v 1 a Sleeper drone is far more deadly than the best known Jove ships.
I am not even sure the Jove are alive anymore, it's looking like they lost the last war they were in yet alone an ongoing war with the Sleepers.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Rek Jaiga
Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators
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Posted - 2011.04.14 16:44:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Pottsey The Jove are hardly a match for us let alone the Sleepers.
I could have sworn the Jove kicked the Imperial Navy's face in...granted a similarly-sized capsuleer force might have fared differently, the Jove by no means are weak they just lack population.
But yes, either Sansha's Nation or the Sleepers (possibly both?) have probably invaded their space and are wrecking havoc. ------------------- The path which can be seen is not the True Path |
Tykari
Gallente AOE Enterprise Revival Of The Talocan Empire
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Posted - 2011.04.14 17:56:00 -
[5]
When it comes to the Jove we just don't know enough. We have evidence that suggests they are far more advanced and very powerful, and then there is evidence that suggests the opposite, or at least that despite their high tech they aren't as strong as one would expect. And from in-game texts of various items found on Sleepers it suggest they and the Jove share a few technological advances. I hope/pray that EVE Templar One, may tell us a little more about both of them. ------ In my memories is still see the waves. The light and the energy pulsing, forming shapes so complex and beautiful. It is a tale none will ever believe. |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2011.04.14 20:05:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Pottsey on 14/04/2011 20:05:54 Rek Jaiga said " I could have sworn the Jove kicked the Imperial Navy's face in..." That's a common misbelieve. If you look closely the Jove did absolutely terrible in that battle. What should have been an easy sure win turned into 1/3 of their fleet lost. Yes the Jove won but if any pod pilot fleet did as bad as the Jove did in that battle the pod pilot fleet would be a laughing stock. Plus the Jove in game that we fight are not that tough and the specs on the known ships are not that good.
The way I see it Jove power is mostly misdirection, propaganda and general spy games to make them look like they project more power then they do.
I believe any single Empire in a full scale war would beat the Jove.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.14 23:56:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 14/04/2011 23:58:14
@OP, there really is not enough information to draw a conclusion. Some hypothesis consider the sleepers to be Jove or closely related.
Originally by: Pottsey
Rek Jaiga said " I could have sworn the Jove kicked the Imperial Navy's face in..." That's a common misbelieve. If you look closely the Jove did absolutely terrible in that battle. What should have been an easy sure win turned into 1/3 of their fleet lost. Yes the Jove won but if any pod pilot fleet did as bad as the Jove did in that battle the pod pilot fleet would be a laughing stock. Plus the Jove in game that we fight are not that tough and the specs on the known ships are not that good.
The way I see it Jove power is mostly misdirection, propaganda and general spy games to make them look like they project more power then they do.
I believe any single Empire in a full scale war would beat the Jove.
You are making several questionable assumptions and drawing a conclusion that conflicts with the cannon.
Your conclusion they did terribly isn't really justified. It seems you are assuming the fleets were equal in classes & numbers. However the The Battle of VakÆAtioth mentions Jove Frigates battling Amarr cruisers while their Mothership destroys the Amarr Battleships
The fact is defeat was enough to convince all the factions to avoid any conflict with the Jove.
CONCORD ships are built with Jove technology, even if we hand wave over instance death of the GCF. They have successfully functioned as a deterrent against all factions and put up a hell of a fight against the numerically superior Eldar fleet despite being tactically wrong footed. Neither can we even assume that CONCORD has the Jove's first rate technology.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2011.04.15 06:50:00 -
[8]
First of all that is the short version of the battle, i f you read the full version it's much worse. Also the Jove had far more then just frigates. As I recall the Jove had pod piloted Capital ships and pod piloted cruisers and other size pod ships against none pod piloted Amaar Battleships with no capital ships. 2nd the defeat didn't convince the other factions to avoid the Jove. A much bigger fleet was set to invade and most likely would have won based on the data we have but the Enheduanni caused the Minmatar rebellion that diverted the invading fleet. That's what stopped the fight. Then the Jove used misdirection & propaganda with handing videos most likely edited ones to the Gallante to try and project more power than they had. It was the propaganda and rebellion that stopped the war against the Jove. I believe my conclusion is justified by the following facts.
Jove advantages. -The Jove had capital ships with cap weapons and doomsday weapons while the enemy had Battleships as the max size.
-The Jove had the full enemy battle plans and tactics before the battle. This gave the Jove the element of surprise and time to fit the perfect counter. Not to mention made it so the Jove had a fleet in waiting ready to engage as they know which systems the Amarr would land in.
-The enemy Fleet Command ship (Which was a battleship) and fleet leader was a traitor working for the Jove. (This is a big one for me the Fleet leader giving orders worked for the Jove!)
-The Jove had pod piloted ships with all the advantages that gives, the enemy had none pod piloted ships and all the disadvantages that gives.
-The Jove had so called advanced weapons the enemy had T1 if not much worse then T1 weapons.
It should have been a clear easy win and short battle. Not massively long battle with the Jove losing one-third of the fleet. Surly I am not mistaken in saying any pod pilot fleet today with those advantages above would be a laughing stock for losing 1/3 of their fleet even if they still won?
Plus on top of all the above there are Jove in game we can engage and fight againth and they are not powerful. Plus the known Jove ship specs are worse than our ships. Lastly the Jove have been in a war against a more advance race. There is no indication the Jove won and in fact the few indications we have are the Jove are in a much worse state then in the past. The Jove do not even turn up to Concord anymore with references the Jove wing in the concord base has been empty for ages.
My personal opinion is the Jove are near extinct and the technology stagnated years ago while ours has shot up fast due to stealing tech from wormholes. In game comparison a Fleet of pod pilots with capital ships doing a level 4 missions and losing 1/3 of the fleet. That's how bad the Jove do in battle. As for Concord the real balanced ships and the ships in the lore are not that powerful. Yes they are powerful but not massively so. A skilled Pod pilot can take down a Concord ship 1v1 or even against worse odds.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Wyke Mossari
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.04.15 11:10:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 15/04/2011 11:13:56
You are making a number of questionable assumptions, elevating some of those to facts and drawing an unjustified conclusion. It is not as clear cut as you make out.
You are assuming the numbers of ships was equal and then conflating 30% loss of Jove ships with 1:3 loss ratio verses the Amarr fleet. They are not the same thing. Consider for a moment, 200 Amarr Battleships vs 100 Jove Battleships. The Amarr lose 200 and the Jove 33, the loss ratio becomes 1:6. We know the size of the Amarr fleet but not the size of the Jove fleet.
You are assuming the Amarr had no faction tech, it is equally possible the Amarr had named or faction military tech.
You are conflating the game need for balance in past live events to a strategic weakness for the Jove.
I agree that the Jove seem to be in decline, but that your conclusion that the Battle was essentially a Pyrrhic Victory that left them strategic vulnerable is a conclusion to far. I'm not saying it is not true, it might be, even probable is but it is not supported by evidence.
It is equally possible that it been more like Rorke Drift or Thermopylae.
As an aside, if we accept the Jove-Roman inspiration/allegory, perhaps the key to understanding is to determine at what stage of the decline the story is at, and just who are the Amarr?
It is also worth recognising that the decline of the Roman Empire was more a metamorphosis, first it split into Western and Eastern, the Eastern became the Byzantine Empire while the Western initially declined, before several Romanised states eventually emerged in Spain, France, Germany and elsewhere leading to the Holy Roman empire, which then sublimated the Eastern Empire during one the later Crusades.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2011.04.15 15:01:00 -
[10]
What do you mean elevating assumptions as facts? Every single one of those points is a fact not an assumption. Which ones do you think are assumptions not facts? For example I am not making assumptions about size. We know the precisely the size of the Amaar fleet as itÆs quoted in at least two places. A quote from the extended story about the fight. ôThough outnumbered two to one, the Jovian fleet amassed directly across from them remained motionless.ö So the Amaar are 200 non pod piloted ships up to a max size of battleship as it says in more than once place and the Jove are 100 pod piloted ships up to the size of mothership or 100 give or take a small number. I am not assuming the Amaar had no faction tech we know the flagship was an Imperial Issue Apocalypse-class battleship so at least some faction tech was used. I am saying back in the timeframe the battle took place the Amaar best weapons are T1 at best. T2 didnÆt exist for Amaar only the Jove had T2.
Most of the lore has the Jove as weak in battle; all the in game content has the Jove as weak in battle. All the Jove ship specs are weak at battle. The only place the Jove are not weak is in misdirection & propaganda and spy games.
The simple fact is, if we look at the performance of all known Jove fights on the live server and in lore, and all known specs then the Jove are not powerful and are no match for the Sleepers or even us. I am not saying the single battle left them strategic vulnerable. If anything itÆs the Jove war against the more advance enemy race that left them vulnerable. The Jove where putting all there effect into another war they could hardly deal with a full blown Amaar incursion.
ôôThis is how it began,ö Grious said. The stationary image panned back so that Baer could see the beams striking a Jovian cruiser.ö A jove describing the battle to prove it was more than just Jove frigs. The Jove had a full mixed battle force from Frig, cruisers to motherships.
______ How to Passive Shield Tank T2
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Auwnie Morohe
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Posted - 2011.04.15 15:56:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Auwnie Morohe on 15/04/2011 15:57:15 Metamorphosis, where have I seen that before?
Even though you make a good point Pottsey I think there is more going on than just ships and numbers.
The Jove and the Enheduanni are at war. Because of the unusual nature of this war there could have been reasons for the Jove to paint a certain picture of themselves.
Also drawing direct lines between game mechanics, database stats and story could break stuff very easily. If we disregard game mechanics then CONCORD should be taken into account.
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Roga Dracor
Caldari Mental Disorders Inc. Infinite Conflux
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Posted - 2011.04.15 21:08:00 -
[12]
It has also been stated that the Jove are MASTERS of espionage and itelligence gathering. That in and of itself could put the Jove on equal footing with any of the Empires.
There are quite a few real life examples of good intel and superior tactical ability being the sole reason inferior forces defeat VASTLY superior numbers and firepower. I think you underestimate the potential of the Jove. Even if their numbers have shrunk their technical and tactical ability far outstrips ours.
The Sleepers, however, seem to possess ALL the stated abilities of the Jove, and maybe then some. Maybe. The one thing we do know about the Jove is that we know very little about the Jove.
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Jaik7
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Posted - 2011.04.19 16:16:00 -
[13]
the sleepers are malfunctioning.
being masters of wormhole tech, why do they allow wormholes to open into their remote space inviting armed invasion by pod pilots? i see two answers to this question, they either
1) intended to attack or 2) cannot control their wormholes
even when pod pilots are in their space, they don't activly try to eliminate them. pilots can attack sleeper installations with no repercussion. concord, based off Jovian tech, does not suffer criminals in their space. why do the sleepers suffer hostiles in theirs?
i've fought and killed sleepers. i've never fought a Jove. i'll take the devil i know over the one i don't know.
Originally by: CCP Shadow The trolls have been vanquished.
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Makie Ber
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Posted - 2011.04.19 20:22:00 -
[14]
So it basically just comes down to: nobody knows. Lots of speculation and assumptions, based on existing lore, which never took a sleeper/jove conflict into consideration. But nothing concrete exists to show a difference in power. And I would hardly consider the power of Jove NPCs to be any real indicator, as I'm sure difficulty-scaling was the primary reason for their in-game specs, more than any lore. After all, an Amarr battleship should have no difficulty taking out a Minmatar battleship, if the in-game specs reflected the lore, which would indicate Amar technology to be leaps and bounds ahead of the Minmatar.
Based on the mystique surrounding them in the lore, I would make the assumption that in a fight of equal numbers, and equal ship class, the Jove would come out on top. But I was hoping something more "definitive" existed on this. Oh well.
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Jaik7
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Posted - 2011.04.20 15:06:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Makie Ber So it basically just comes down to: nobody knows. Lots of speculation and assumptions, based on existing lore, which never took a sleeper/jove conflict into consideration.
my understanding of the lore was that there WAS a sleeper Jove conflict. but i also thought that they fought with the yan jung and all the rest of the ancients. my understanding of the politics of the ancients was that it was rather similar to the politics of the cluster today, with two major groups fighting and a third (sleepers) played the Jove and stood off in their space, watching the conflict.
as far as i know, we have very little information about the specifics of the ancient's conflict(s), just that it was their doom in the end.
Originally by: CCP Shadow The trolls have been vanquished.
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