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Arazel Chainfire
The Awakened Armada
Infinite Conflux
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Posted - 2011.04.14 03:41:00 -
[1]
So I have been running incursions for about the past month or so, both with corpmates, random people from incursion chat, and from a few channels of regulars. The rewards are pretty high in my opinion, as long as the pilots are competent, and I can regularly punch out 8-10 vanguards an hour, which is 80-100mil isk and 11200-14k LP an hour for highsec incursions. All this while actually being social with other players.
However, I only know of somewhere around 150 or so regular shield incursion pilots, and from what I've seen probably around 200 or so regular armor incursion pilots. So what I'm curious about is are there more people who only fly them with corpmates? Or is it more that they really aren't popular at all?
So tell me, what is your opinion on incursions, and why do you like them/hate them/don't care about them?
-Arazel
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Bossonoax
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Posted - 2011.04.14 04:24:00 -
[2]
Active gains vs passive gains.
Incursions require me getting off my behind and finding them, then finding a group, then killing, etc etc
Or, i can afk a level 4 or two and make same cash, or in most cases more if i could be bothered salvaging.
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.04.14 04:38:00 -
[3]
TBH I'm rather disappointed with how few people run incursions. I think it has something to do with how the sites are balanced and how many incursions tend to be up at any given time. During the week there's usually an incursion site or 2 up in highsec at any given point, but during the weekend there just aren't enough to meet the needs of the potential incursion runners.
Though that's actually not the biggest problem. The BIGGEST problem is the balancing of the sites themselves. I argue vanguards because it's what I know, though my understanding is that the situation is mirrored in higher up sites as well:
Go to a vanguard system that's been up more than a couple hours, and your overview will look something like this:
Override Transfer Array
Override Transfer Array
Override Transfer Array
Override Transfer Array
Override Transfer Array
Override Transfer Array
Override Transfer Array
Because OTAs are a lot harder than the other sites, AND you need a specialized ship to run them properly (whereas mining sites can be mined by slapping mining drones on the logis and you waste no time/no change to fleet comp). So what ends up happening is that after a while people stop running sites, the more dedicated incursion runners move up to assault fleets, and the ones who were just giving it a try leave, because they can't actually run the sites sitting there collecting dust. The incursions themselves can't sustain any more than 1-2 fleets per vanguard system because of this, which puts a hard cap on the number of smaller entities that can get in on the incursions.
Worst part is CCP actually went and rebalanced the NCOs (which WERE too easy, so not in and of itself a bad thing to do), but completely ignored the OTAs while they were doing it, despite the fact that it's pretty obvious that very few people run them. |
Sai Hai
Caldari
Shin-Ra Ltd
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Posted - 2011.04.14 04:42:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Bossonoax
Active gains vs passive gains.
Incursions require me getting off my behind and finding them, then finding a group, then killing, etc etc
Or, i can afk a level 4 or two and make same cash, or in most cases more if i could be bothered salvaging.
Agreed. Same thing for me. And me is a casual player, like 70% of carebears.
Finding group =/= casual.
Don't have much time for this, because you never know if you can find a grp at all. It's very random.
And obviously: random =/= casual.
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Rens Cheque
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Posted - 2011.04.14 06:31:00 -
[5]
Cambarus - you don't actually need a hacker for the OTAs, they can be done in 10 minutes without one and quicker with one if you have a good fleet.
The change to NCOs was so minor that they maybe take 30 seconds more now, still far easier than the other 2 site types. NCOs still need to be a bit harder and OTAs probably a little bit easier if we want all sites to take about the same amount of time.
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Isan'na
Malicious Destruction
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Posted - 2011.04.14 06:51:00 -
[6]
Not to be cynical (ok maybe), but your OP holds the key already, as pointed out.
"as long as the pilots are competent"
"All this while actually being social with other players"
I'll be honest though, I love them. It has a much higher challenge level than L4s or exploration, as well as pay. Pulling half a billion before LP in a couple hours is pretty damn nice, and it also gave rise to a strong backbone and community from which our corp can draw on for PVP, industry, and other EVE-related knowledge.
I would think the fact that the Incursions have been dying so fast and inexperienced fleets would be a large part. I know some pilots have actually taken financial loss from incursions due to repeated losses, and the incursion dying before they can learn more and make it back is a turn-off. An Incursion dying in four hours and everyone having to mad lemming rush towards it for any chance of a fleet isn't appealing. We'll see how people's attitude is affected after the next day or two ;)
Also, the difficulty seems to have cultivated the perception that you need to be OMGMAXSKILLZ in order to be effective. TBH, we've taken 5-6 million SP characters and made them useful, contributing parts of a fleet. Sure, we're not hitting our max 3.5 minute NMC time, but that's not something we can do unless we have a perfect fleet. Even with a mixed skill-level fleet the completion times are respectable.
Granted, within a month, most of those 5-6 million SP players have enough to afford a 25+ SP char and upgrade, but the point stands.
Now, some wishlist items that may or may not get fixed:
 Fix the duration bar without artificial player intervention, just as a lower bound...
Rebalance a few key sites. The OTA vanguard and Nation Consolidation Assault site come to mind. The OTA's not terrible for experienced players - 5.5 or 6m without a hack as opposed to 3 or 4 - but it will tear inexperienced/underdamaged fleets a new one.
Actually, they fixed drones, so that's all I can think of atm.
tl;dr Too many people see difficulty, and whine, then run away instead of HTFU combined with current lack of Incursion duration due to a KIllITNAO mentality that I hope will change.
<Isan>
MALD, your best source for Concord LP.
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Neoexecutor
Minmatar
Skynet Technologies
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Posted - 2011.04.14 06:52:00 -
[7]
Because the hype of new shiny has burned out and system being not lucrative enough for pug groups i would guess.
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Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.04.14 07:01:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Rens Cheque
Cambarus - you don't actually need a hacker for the OTAs, they can be done in 10 minutes without one and quicker with one if you have a good fleet.
The change to NCOs was so minor that they maybe take 30 seconds more now, still far easier than the other 2 site types. NCOs still need to be a bit harder and OTAs probably a little bit easier if we want all sites to take about the same amount of time.
You can go on about how easy you think they are all you want, but the proof is in the fact that after a few hours every single vanguard system tends to be FULL of OTAs. And as soon as a system spawns that 7th OTA, local drops from 40 to <10 in but a few short minutes. |
King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous
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Posted - 2011.04.14 07:11:00 -
[9]
Incursions are the single most boring and grindy pve activity in eve. There is so little variety in them and the npc's are even more predictable than your typical lvl4 rats. My tolerance for them is about 2 sites, then I'd rather log off and play solitaire than do that crap. I'm not alone in that either. I won't dispute it paying well, but it's intolerably boring so I can't say I know anyone who runs them with any degree of regularity. The last site I ran I only did because I wanted to un-cyno jam my home system. In fact, I think that's the only reason anyone in the entire 30 man fleet did it. Fortunately for us, goonswarm decided they wanted to go run all the sites so we didn't have to.
Thus far you shall read, but no further; for this is my sig. |
Target Painter
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.04.14 09:22:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Target Painter on 14/04/2011 09:22:46
Moving across New Eden without the benefit of carriers (in other words, through highsec) is easily the second most painful, least fun thing in the game; only behind setting up POSes.
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Burnharder
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Posted - 2011.04.14 10:16:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Burnharder on 14/04/2011 10:16:02
Joined a fleet on Sunday and it was great fun. Really enjoyed grouping with a bunch of strangers to run them.
The key to a good incursion is having a good FC. That is someone giving instructions on MIC, talking the noobs through what they need to do, etc. I can't emphasise how important using a MIC as FC and keeping the proles informed about what's going on is.
Joined a fleet yesterday but we couldn't find any sites that weren't already in play (vanguard), so I literally floated around in space warping here and there for over 2 hours and didn't see any action.
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Sheena Tzash
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Posted - 2011.04.14 10:40:00 -
[12]
I would LOVE to try an incusion, but to me the risks don't meet the potential rewards.
1) PUG groups tend to be crap (someone already commented that you need a good FC, without one your sunk)
2) PUG groups could be a simple pirate trap
3) You have to move to a random system and still not know what ships, fittings or equipment is required for the fleet or objective.
4) PUG groups can form and disband very quickly leaving you with nothing (even worse when you have gone 30 jumps to a site to be left with nothing)
I find it strange how the EVE world where TRUST is something that isn't take lightly. You can't trust anyone, not even corp mates and yet CCP expect me to take my expensive ship to a random system, meet up with a group of strangers and trust them enough run a mission without them shooting me down and doing nasty things to my frozen corpse.
Even if I wanted to organise a corp event and run a few missions with them the incursion sites move around and you can't plan to run an incursion to only find out that:
1) The only sites are now in null sec
2) The sites are already being run by other groups and you've wasted your time.
So yeah; to me its a dead feature.
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Floydd Heywood
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Posted - 2011.04.14 11:09:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Floydd Heywood on 14/04/2011 11:09:57
My corp did participate in several incursions in the beginning, and we really enjoyed it and would like to do it more often. But the reality is that we haven't done any in two months or so.
1. The single most important reason is that hisec incursions last WAY too short a time. When you see one you practically have to rush to it at once or it will be defeated before you are there. Because incursions obviously don't usually spawn just when we are waiting and prepared to do one, we don't even bother to try getting to one that is already 30 or 50% done.
Also this makes incursions not feel like a threat to New Eden. It's more like a thousand bored hunters waiting for one little lonely fox to show its nose.
-> Incursions need to last a lot longer
2. More Vanguard sites are needed and they should be better balanced. Indeed we only ever got Override Transfer Arrays, everything else was already gone. I like doing them though so that is not so bad. I do incursions for the fun rather than for profit, so I don't mind that I get less ISK/hour running OTAs. Still, it would be nice to get some of the other sites as well.
-> Rebalance Vanguard sites and provide more of them, possibly lower rewards
Right now, I don't use this feature at all although I really like it 
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Rens Cheque
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Posted - 2011.04.14 11:25:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: Rens Cheque
Cambarus - you don't actually need a hacker for the OTAs, they can be done in 10 minutes without one and quicker with one if you have a good fleet.
The change to NCOs was so minor that they maybe take 30 seconds more now, still far easier than the other 2 site types. NCOs still need to be a bit harder and OTAs probably a little bit easier if we want all sites to take about the same amount of time.
You can go on about how easy you think they are all you want, but the proof is in the fact that after a few hours every single vanguard system tends to be FULL of OTAs. And as soon as a system spawns that 7th OTA, local drops from 40 to <10 in but a few short minutes.
They are definately the slowest site to run, I'm not arguing that. And systems do fill up with them.
But you don't need a hacker necessarily, we were just running them in 8 mins before DT without a hacker.
But the other sites are faster, we were running mining sites in 6.5 mins and nation commanders in 5 mins or less.
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Anddeh McNab
Cadre Assault Force
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Posted - 2011.04.14 11:29:00 -
[15]
A few things come to mind.
Firstly, a personal annoyance. Nearly all the high-sec incursions are in Amarr space. The one place I can't go. Spent too much time ****ing on their pilots in FW.
Secondly, forming fleets is soooooooooo slow. Seriously, it took 3 hours to form a fleet for an assault site. Granted the site then took us about an hour and a half (DC's and them f*cking Sansha snipers)
Although it pains me to say it, Blizzard were onto a winner with the group finder tool. A simple implementation would do and could easily be integrated into the existing fleet finder. Include options for what sites you're looking to join, what class of ship(s)you have available and whether you're shield or armour buffered.
Granted there would be some trolling with people pressing all the buttons so they find a fleet quicker but even so it would cut the wait time down by hours at least.
There are two sides to the EVE community; those that scream for change and those that scream against it. Often they are the same person. |
Tarasina
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Posted - 2011.04.14 11:57:00 -
[16]
I tried it once. Went in with a drake that can easily tank C2 WHs.
Vanguard site in hisec. 10 of us. My ship popped in 15 secs. What are my options now? Buy a new ship and fit it. That takes an hour. Then what? Find another group and get popped as soon as I'm primaried? No thanks, you can keep your farmorama-incursions.
Gameplay seemed to be the same as WH except DPS is higher so need logistics. Wheres the fun in all this? I fail to see it.
Farming just isn't fun, despite what farmorama tells you.
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Floydd Heywood
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Posted - 2011.04.14 12:07:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Tarasina
I tried it once. Went in with a drake that can easily tank C2 WHs.
Vanguard site in hisec. 10 of us. My ship popped in 15 secs. What are my options now? Buy a new ship and fit it. That takes an hour. Then what? Find another group and get popped as soon as I'm primaried? No thanks, you can keep your farmorama-incursions.
Yesterday I attacked a titan in my Navitas that can easily tank veldspar roids, and I popped in like one second. I think this is outrageous and I will now quit EVE.
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Manipulator General
o.0
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Posted - 2011.04.14 12:07:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Arazel Chainfire
So tell me, what is your opinion on incursions
I wish you could turn off that Incursion graphic if you have no interest in it. And I wish you could close the channel that ever-so-kindly opens up by itself.
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Burnharder
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Posted - 2011.04.14 12:07:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Tarasina
I tried it once. Went in with a drake that can easily tank C2 WHs.
Vanguard site in hisec. 10 of us. My ship popped in 15 secs. What are my options now? Buy a new ship and fit it. That takes an hour. Then what? Find another group and get popped as soon as I'm primaried? No thanks, you can keep your farmorama-incursions.
Gameplay seemed to be the same as WH except DPS is higher so need logistics. Wheres the fun in all this? I fail to see it.
Farming just isn't fun, despite what farmorama tells you.
Fail fleet? Yes, you need logis and you need a buffer tank and you need to rely on other people. The number of pods I see flying around incursion systems is hilarious  .
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Sheena Tzash
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Posted - 2011.04.14 12:09:00 -
[20]
Forcing random players to co-operate just doesn't work; it bearly even works in WoW and even then you could run most instances without saying two words to anyone else in your group.
As long as you did your job no one even cared who you were or what you have to say.
Yeah it sucks and we could all be nicer to each other, but its like going into low sec and asking someone in local if I can be their friend; if your lucky you might actually make a friend but most of the time you'll just get ganked.
Incursions need to be player enabled and not random. If I want to run an incursion I want to be able to start one near where all my stuff is and at a date & time that suits me & my fleet mates. I don't mind that its not instanced and someone can jack my mission; it happens in L4s all the time so its nothing new; I just want the CHOICE of being able to do them at my own discretion and at my own pace so I can learn slowly without too much risk.
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Montgomery Crabapple
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Posted - 2011.04.14 12:37:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Sheena Tzash
Forcing random players to co-operate just doesn't work; it bearly even works in WoW and even then you could run most instances without saying two words to anyone else in your group.
As long as you did your job no one even cared who you were or what you have to say.
Yeah it sucks and we could all be nicer to each other, but its like going into low sec and asking someone in local if I can be their friend; if your lucky you might actually make a friend but most of the time you'll just get ganked.
Incursions need to be player enabled and not random. If I want to run an incursion I want to be able to start one near where all my stuff is and at a date & time that suits me & my fleet mates. I don't mind that its not instanced and someone can jack my mission; it happens in L4s all the time so its nothing new; I just want the CHOICE of being able to do them at my own discretion and at my own pace so I can learn slowly without too much risk.
That's ridiculous. As usual, don't fly it if you can't afford to lose it. Guy with a drake thinking he's l33t because he can breeze level 4's, flying into an incursion and being insta-popped is ****** hilarious.
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Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
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Posted - 2011.04.14 12:50:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Patient 2428190 on 14/04/2011 12:50:38
Goes twofold
1. Fleeting or trusting strangers in any capacity is the best way to "lose" EVE. At best, you'll get SPR Drakes, Medium rep Logis, self tanking mission fits and other things dreamt up by the fail-fit fairy. At worst, you'll get people trying to get you flagged to them, via the lovely neutral RR-WT mechanics existing in EVE
2. If you did found a corp of not s*** players to do them or convince your corp of not s*** players to do them, the fact Incursions bounce all across the galaxy every day or so means you would be constantly traveling. Relocating PvP bases every month via carriers is an absolute pain, imagine every single week slowboating across empire.
...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala. |
Raid'En
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Posted - 2011.04.14 14:48:00 -
[23]
why bother waiting for some guys to be up, or to lose some ships when i can farm peacefully on w-space ? when i try sites are already done anyway >_<
and i suppose it's the same for the nullsec residents ; they could like incursion as it can be a fake pvp while they have none to do, but why bother as they could farm near their home, or if they really want pvp, they can find one less far than the incursion site.
seems like a design issue ;
incursions themselves are interesting
but incursion putted into all other eve activities miss his place.
maybe it will change with time... lots of time.
for incursions you need ;
some trusted pilots, who want challenge, are patient, and have nothing better than that to do
but ;
* as people already said, here it's eve not wow. pug won't works. and if you have good corpies, there is better (more reward, more easy...) things to do.
* if they are really willing to do it, then they need to find an empty space.. not easy. if they really want something harder that basic farming, why not doing a bit of pvp ? if they can do this, there's good chance they can also harvest some tears, and seems people like this a lot more.
seems to me like only a specialized corp, doing only that, can do that. and there isn't enough space for everyone.
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** Wormhole Trading ** |
Anddeh McNab
Cadre Assault Force
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Posted - 2011.04.14 15:43:00 -
[24]
There's alot of potential cash in Incursions, alot of sites can be completed easily in less than 20 twenty minutes. But waiting x hours for the fleet to form in the first place, while gathering y logistics pilots and replacing people between sites (either through them having to leave to rl issues to kicking people due to excessive ******ation) can rapidly degrade both the income and enjoyment of Incursions.
Unless of course you have a dedicated corp of trustworthy peoples.
There are two sides to the EVE community; those that scream for change and those that scream against it. Often they are the same person. |
Sheena Tzash
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Posted - 2011.04.14 15:49:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Montgomery Crabapple
Originally by: Sheena Tzash
Forcing random players to co-operate just doesn't work; it bearly even works in WoW and even then you could run most instances without saying two words to anyone else in your group.
As long as you did your job no one even cared who you were or what you have to say.
Yeah it sucks and we could all be nicer to each other, but its like going into low sec and asking someone in local if I can be their friend; if your lucky you might actually make a friend but most of the time you'll just get ganked.
Incursions need to be player enabled and not random. If I want to run an incursion I want to be able to start one near where all my stuff is and at a date & time that suits me & my fleet mates. I don't mind that its not instanced and someone can jack my mission; it happens in L4s all the time so its nothing new; I just want the CHOICE of being able to do them at my own discretion and at my own pace so I can learn slowly without too much risk.
That's ridiculous. As usual, don't fly it if you can't afford to lose it. Guy with a drake thinking he's l33t because he can breeze level 4's, flying into an incursion and being insta-popped is ****** hilarious.
Well thats exactly my point.
It means that people either all turn up in frigs, some major fail fits or don't bother at all. Either way you're not very well suited for the situation and you can't GET better suited because all your ships & equipment are x load of jumps away.
Its common knowledge that you don't fly what you can't afford to lose but when your putting it on the line to some random PUG fleet a lot of players just wont take that risk.
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Ana Vyr
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Posted - 2011.04.14 15:54:00 -
[26]
It breaks EvE Rule #2. Never trust anyone.
I agree it's a ******ed rule to have in a cooperative social game, but you can only get burnt so many times before you realize its completely true.
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Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2011.04.14 16:29:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Jill Antaris on 14/04/2011 16:29:58
Actually joining random groups and chat a bit makes it a bit less of distressful.
What I don't like so much is that it takes relative long to form up fleets, looking for replacements when people leave, checking the fittings so it is actually most of the time more waiting than running the sites.
Also the re spawns could be more plenty, finding a free Mining or Commander site is actually quite a pain in the prime time.
Also I would agree that it is in the end somewhat of a team based grid in a proper gang and can get a bit boring over time.
----------------------
Nerf Lasers!
Thay need far to less CPU and Grid to Fit.
Still using not enught Cap and do far to mutch Damage.
O wait... they allready did... =( |
Plasmatiq
Caldari
Malicious Destruction
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Posted - 2011.04.14 17:33:00 -
[28]
Guess I'm in the minority and really like the incursions...but I am also in a group that has their **** together 
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Mara Abraham
Minmatar
T.R.I.A.D
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Posted - 2011.04.14 17:55:00 -
[29]
Greetings:
For me, incursion is forced PVE; and since I'm not into PVE let along being forced into it, I avoid it.
Thank you.
--- Mara Abraham
* http://www.factionalwarfare.info
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Ghengis Tia
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Posted - 2011.04.14 22:57:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Ana Vyr
It breaks EvE Rule #2. Never trust anyone.
I agree it's a ******ed rule to have in a cooperative social game, but you can only get burnt so many times before you realize its completely true.
Incursions specifically exclude solo players. The alternative is the above.
Good on you small corps for giving it a go. Other than some Incursion "woo-woo" sirens in the system stations as far as I'm concerned it doesn't exist.
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