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Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.01 14:27:00 -
[1]
Like I said, player pirates have it too easy. Now, on top of them camping jumpgates, if a player comes in and kicks their ass, they just jump. They're withing the jump distance since they camp.
How's about this, if you start combat with a player, you cannot jump for 2 minutes. Call it, realigning your targetting scanners.
That way, if you man enough to camp a startgate and gank people, you're man enough to see your attack all the way through.
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Freak
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Posted - 2003.07.01 14:55:00 -
[2]
YEAH !!!
Then we will see how many player pirates end up FUBAR !!!
:)
FreakOfNature
AKA: Freak.
Quote : "If God posted his second coming here i would ban his ass for being off topic !" :)
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Lijah Reaper
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Posted - 2003.07.01 15:03:00 -
[3]
I agree with this one, but 2 minutes may be a bit much. How about 1 minute? 30 seconds?
Also, the explanation of why you can't jump should be tuned considering that you can target anything and warp away elsewhere in the system without waiting.
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Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.01 15:11:00 -
[4]
Yeah you're right 2 minutes is too much. 1 minute would suffice.
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Krogar
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Posted - 2003.07.01 16:15:00 -
[5]
Wow, an anti-pirate topic without a m0o member whining.
On topic: I think this would be a good idea. Maybe explain it away as "Due to combat in the local area, the jumpgates reactor has been shutdown for safety reasons. Powerup will take 1 minute."
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.01 16:28:00 -
[6]
Totally against it for two reasons:
1) It should be in the "EVE Ideas" forum and not here
2) You've got webifiers and scramblers ingame as it is now.
.
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Balsak
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Posted - 2003.07.01 17:00:00 -
[7]
Quote:
"1) It should be in the "EVE Ideas" forum and not here
2) You've got webifiers and scramblers in game as it is now."
Point 1. This is not a reason to be against the idea.
Point 2. These devices do not prevent people from jumping through gates.
So now that we have established your reasons for being against this are wrong please come back with something better.
Now yes 2 minutes is far too long, so is 1 minute. Heres a couple of minor suggestions for it. The gate camper who instigates the attack should not be allowed to jump through the gate until he turns off all of his weapon modules and then wait 30 seconds after they shut down. You should be abale to warp out to another planet or wherever. Just not through the gate.
I do want to make sure everyone knows im not against pirates camping gates at all. In fact im glad they are doing these things. The real problem is like Hippey said. If you are gonna be a big man and camp a gate you should be man enough to see your fight through.
Nothing worse than a ***** who sits 10k from a gate and as soon as he realizes hes gonna get hurt click on the autopilot button and hes out.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.01 17:17:00 -
[8]
Your logic isnt as adept as your attempts at sarcasm balsak.
Otherwise you might realise that by making combat encounters "do or die" it encourages people to only fight when sure of a win.
Leading back to the same problem of why big nasty pirates pick on little people. .. because its a sure thing.
Its a recipe for bullying - not a cure, and one tried and tested and documented across many MOG games as a failure.
Not too mention you only assume there is no way to stop somebody jumping, now or later.
Edited by: Morkt Drak on 01/07/2003 17:18:58
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Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.01 17:48:00 -
[9]
Morkt, you really are an idiot.
I don't know what your problem is, but from now on, stay off my damn threads.
Now, this is an idea. By the reaction of people other then your lame ass, it's a good one.
Now your #2 is BEYOND stupid. What the HELL do webifiers and warp scramblers have to do whe the guy pirate is WITHIN the jump distance and is a right click away from jumping. how EXACTLY do those two modules prevent someone from jumping when he's in distance?? Tell me please, because oh I must have missed something BIG!
And I don't know what the plan is in the future nor do I care. this is a problem "now" and it needs fixing "now". Frankly I don't even see why I should waste a module to prevent someone from jumping through an empire gate.
If you got guns blazing, you should NOT be able to jump instantly escaping all combat.
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Balsak
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Posted - 2003.07.01 20:48:00 -
[10]
"Do or die"
I never said any such nonsense. They can warp out if not scrambeled. All I said was to prevent them from using the gate thats 10,000m and a single click of the autopilot button away.
You sound like you are a pirate and love to use this cheap ass tactic and dont want to see it gotten rid of cause you know you can only kill n00bs 1 on 1. But when someone comes to take you out you just warp away and log off like the pansy pirate you are.
If you are not one of these pirate types then I really dont see why you have such an issue with this.
Edited by: Balsak on 01/07/2003 20:48:23
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Redundancy
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Posted - 2003.07.01 23:06:00 -
[11]
Lets cool it down please, I'm in no mood to see the kind of dross that goes on in the general forum going on in here. It doesn't help each other and it doesn't help the developers.
Redundancy |
Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.02 00:00:00 -
[12]
My apologies.
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Ehxo
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Posted - 2003.07.02 00:17:00 -
[13]
LOL this is the funiest thing. I agree that jumping to escape the consequences is a bit, actually VERY lame. M0O does it all the time and then brags that they kill everything that moves so easily... *cough*..
But seriously, a good pirate will have safe jump bookmarks in a system and a safe spot as well, and will be alligned with that bookmark in order to warp out faster. Then again, someone with a good warp jammer could fix that but still, that doesn't remove all the "wussyness" of the situation.
And for the ones who don't know what a safe spot is, well I'll just give you 1 hint: you can add a bookmark while you are warping to something...
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Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.02 01:59:00 -
[14]
Oh I have no problem with them being able to warp. That's what a scrambler is for. But I can't prevent him gatejumping, and he shouldn't be allowed to keep firing at me until the very last second and then just jump when he gets too low.
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Balsak
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Posted - 2003.07.02 02:04:00 -
[15]
Having a safe bookmark in system is fine and smart thinking but atleast there is a defense against this eg: the warp scrambler. My big issue is sitting within 10k of the gate pretending you are a hardcore badass then when 2 or more people come or even 1 on 1 and you are getting hurt you click and jump over to the next system. Its a rather lame and pathetic tactic at best.
Entering a jump gate with guns blaring just shouldnt be allowed to happen though.
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Sarkos
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Posted - 2003.07.02 03:07:00 -
[16]
The soluion, as someone pointed out earlier, is a simple one. You can not jump with waepons active. If you are being attacked and trying to jump, most likely you are pumping your cap into an SB anyway.
Sarkos - CEO / Oracle
Either free the slaves or we will come and get them.
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Ehxo
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Posted - 2003.07.02 03:32:00 -
[17]
Nice idea then, you shouldn't be able to jump with weapons active or any offrensive module active. So basically, you'd have to stop your weapons first... wait... don't weapons turn off like, almost instantly anyway? No that won't work... That will fix the issue where they can still shoot while they are jumping, but won't solve the fact that they can still jump!
On the other end, the delay suggested by the starter of this thread is a bit extreme... I'd say you shouldn't be able to jump if your weapons are active AND you should have a small delay of 10-15 seconds before you can actually jump.
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Arondos
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Posted - 2003.07.02 04:42:00 -
[18]
I'd say a 30 second "weapons safe lock down" to prevent damage by accidental discharge of a weapon to a station or gate would be great.
If you have fired in the last 30 seconds you can't can't jump or dock. Also nerfs the insta dock bookmark if you have fired and doesn't handicap a merchant type at all.
Life isn't fair and neither is Eve. Get over it. |
Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.02 05:04:00 -
[19]
Yeah a 30 second timer since your last shot would be good. And as soon as you fire again, the timer restarts.
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Diamond Smiles
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Posted - 2003.07.02 05:15:00 -
[20]
Most of these ideas would have got me killed in my first ever pvp encounter. I undocked my frigate from a station to find a pirate in a cruiser camped outside. I somewhat naively warped straight to the jumpgate. He followed, and with me slow to react, I was locked and warp scrambled before I could get close to the gate. He opened fire, I locked on and returned fire.
As it happened, I just made it to the gate and jumped before getting killed, but most of the ideas here would have prevented me from jumping because I'd returned fire. Not good (especially as the cruiser was nearly as badly damaged as my poor little Merlin).
However, I agree something needs to be done to stop gate camping. My idea is only to allow ships which have entered jump range (or slightly further) within the last 30 seconds (or some other time) to jump. This might be awkward to implement, but it neatly prevents gate camping, while allowing blockade runners to do so without penalty, even if they fire off a few rounds in passing.
Another option would be to put security locks on jump gates. These would prevent use by anyone with a low sec status. It would take, say, 30 seconds to hack and bypass the lock. Thus any pirate would take 30 seconds to jump while legitimate characters can get through instantly. Won't prevent gate camping by high sec status pirates, but is more 'realistic'. The time could be cut to 5 seconds with the requirement that the hacker not be distracted by combat at the time (firing or under fire).
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Crepiscule
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Posted - 2003.07.02 06:19:00 -
[21]
You're forgetting the poor bastard that just happens to be heading to the gate on a trade route. If he then enters combat while trying to make the gate then he's completely lost his exit.
If you're saying only pirates at the gate can't jump then it seems a bit biased. It needs to be the same for everyone.
I hope this made sense. My last post before bed. lol
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Balsak
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Posted - 2003.07.02 07:30:00 -
[22]
Simple solution is not to open fire or engage in any act of aggression and the gate will let you through. So if you are running the gate theres no reason to turn on your guns.
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Kimi
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Posted - 2003.07.02 07:42:00 -
[23]
Perhaps just allow no weapons firing when you are close enough to jump through the gate?
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Pacala
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Posted - 2003.07.02 09:45:00 -
[24]
I think you guys are ignoring a couple of things.
1. What about bounty hunters? Bounty hunting is a legal form of podding. The only difference between pirate podding and bounty podding is whether it's sanctioned by CONCORD. Since they both involve the same types of actions and most of the same tactics, please remember that this will hurt them as well.
2. What's keeping you from following the guy through the gate? I mean, it's not like the gate requires a secret handshake to activate. Use it, and turn the guy's tactics on him. Camp out a gate or two in the next system. Or have your buddies waiting for him at every gate. Or try to jump right after him and stasis and warp jam him. Or come up with your own tactic.
This situation doesn't require more tweaking from CCP. Quit being lazy, use your brains and find a solution based on tactics and teamwork.
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Rendel
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Posted - 2003.07.02 10:09:00 -
[25]
No - you forget a detail:
If someone camp at a gate he can jump immediately out of you range. You have to approach the gate to follow him. Until you have done the jump the guy is warped way to an unknown location.
I prefer the weapon of while jumping solution, think they is very realistic because there is no way to aim and fire safely to the gate structures while be accelerated to over light speed.
An other solution: let be targeting inhibit by space-time-distortions near a gate.
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Ilia Volyova
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Posted - 2003.07.02 10:15:00 -
[26]
In favor for the 30 sec weapon cooldown for gate jumping, too.
Disabeling the weapons near gates wouldn't be of much use, if the range is too short pirates will simply fly for 2 secs in the jump radius of the gate when they are loosing, if it#s too high pirating wouldn't be possible.
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Molly
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Posted - 2003.07.02 10:19:00 -
[27]
Jump scramblers will enable you to prevent someone from jumping. And anti-scramblers should enable you to jump anway.
---
"Molly > funny thing is, if they warn me for attacking in 1.0, why does a GM wish me luck doing so?
Jash Illian > perverse sense of humor?
Molly > lol
Jash Illian > honestly tho, because he prolly doesn't know bships" |
Morath
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Posted - 2003.07.02 12:20:00 -
[28]
I have no isues being killed by a pirate that is gate camping, this is just one of many fighting strategies that they could use against us,(Strike and retreat tactic) If your not big enough to play with the big boys than you should stay home. My issue is with the use of exploits, thay have no bearing on my ability to fight or defend myself. These exploits use vulnerabilities in the software not the abilities of a pvp scenario.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.02 13:21:00 -
[29]
Unfortunatley you seem only to be considering this froma piracy perspective, no idea why people are so fixated on that but there you are.
My point remains unchallenged though - by enforcing a time-stamp on any escape all you do is force the attacker to be "More sure" of a win and thereby force bigger-ships to take on smallerships.
You also encourage that mentality in the fledging fighter. That applies to both pirates, bounty hunters and corporate wars.
There is nothing wrong with camping a gate and i dont see why the small trader trying to gate out should be hampered by a time-stamp because he wasted a NPC frigate hovering near it.
As you're trying to "prove" the worth of this i'd like to see some better reason, or even aim, than "stopping wuss pirates" when it in reality affects far more people than that.
You've not made a case for it at all. Calling me names because i find holes in your idea isnt helping... and fwiw, no im not a pirate.
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Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.02 14:08:00 -
[30]
1) The timer only applies to attacks against player ships, so NPC pirates are not a problem
2) If you're a trader or someone running from a pirate, WHY ARE YOU SHOOTING AT HIM? You're not going to win, you know you'll **** him off more and you know you'll just waste ammo and tickle his shields. Don't fire, pump the AB and you'll be able to jump. and he won't be able to immediately follow either cause he'll need to "cool down"
3) You can't FOLLOW pirates through a jumpgate. Like someone said, they're already in the jump distance so they'll jump way before you even get there. Then on the other side you HOPE that you appear in the same spot. You don't always. But even there, you can't do anything because another invulnerability timer will have started.
4) No MORKT, it will not make pirates more agreesive since you have NO idea how good the other pilot is. There is no way to tell his RANK or LEVEL compared to you. Now with tracking having more of an effect, pirates in cruisers will even have FRIGATES to fear now, so no, that argument is invalid.
5) Morath, have you ever tried killing a pirate that does this? I'm impossible. I don't have issues with them gate camping, I have issues with them doing it without a care and bounty hunters unable to do ANYTHING about it
6) Pacala, I AM a bounty hunter. This will NOT hurt us, it will ALLOW us finally to be able to collect on the bounties of pirates who just jump when they see someone else is better, and considering I sometimes exit warp 30km from the stargate, it gives the pirate a LOT of freaking time to decide if I'm better.
7) Crepiscule, like I said, if you're a trader on a trade route, what the hell are you doing firing at a pirate in a cruiser? what do you hope to accomplish? Keep the guns cool and keep the AB and SB on autorepeat.
Edited by: Hippey on 02/07/2003 14:10:04
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Morkt Drakt
|
Posted - 2003.07.02 14:55:00 -
[31]
Part of the issue you cant seem to see Hippey is that you are wanting to set conditions on how people play with no regard for how they might want to play.
" Crepiscule, like I said, if you're a trader on a trade route, what the hell are you doing firing at a pirate in a cruiser?"
Why is the pirate in a cruiser? Why isn't he in a frigate?
Ever seen what the mid-slots on a badger can do to someone trying to shoot them?
You can "follow" people through gates - you just can't gaurentee you'll catch them solo - which is the point, use a team.
Carte-blanceh restrictions on jumping due to "aggressive" actions just restrict variety in a game. They dont add to it.
This remains a convulted "fix" for something that isn't even broken.
Ask for an anti-jump device instead.
Does everything you want it to without any of the associated gameplay issues or restrictions on play styles - indeed it adds to it, particularly if theres an anti-jump-scrambler.
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Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.02 15:12:00 -
[32]
1st, there is no anti jump scrambler.
Second, don't preach to me about going after pirates with a team. I've done it solo, I've done it with 7 people total, you I doubt have ever done it by the way you talk about it (use scramblers and webifiers to prevent them from jumping, wth is that????)
What the hell can a team do in following a person. The whole team will exit 20 jumps from stargate. Pirate will **** his pants and jump. We now have to travel 8km to get into 12km range to jump. On the other side, we won't see him. He's had too much time ahead to jump and warp somewhere else. There is no way to find someone in a solarsystem. There is no way to tell if they're docked or in space. So how exactly am I supposed to find them hmmm?
Honestly man, I welcome contructive criticism on my ideas and like a good debate, but please, know what the HELL you're talking about before you talk about it.
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
NGRU Rix
|
Posted - 2003.07.02 15:14:00 -
[33]
If you don't want to fight at a gate, then learn to use an MWD and shield boosters, run to the gate and jump through.
As for preventing Pirates, or anyone for that matter, from running away when they are about to lose, hope for a Jump Gate Prevention Module. Basically it would prevent the ship from asking for a jump from the gate (transmission jamming), not prevent the gate from functioning as it should. Making the gate unavailble after firing a weapon would be wrong, especially to those defending themselves and trying to pass at the same time.
I do agree on gates recognizing your Sec Status tho. It would not prevent you from jumping but would inform local Concord or Police that a -1 or lower character has entered a High Security (.8 and up) system. The local police would merely tail you until you left the system waiting for you to screw up. If you don't they leave you be. That makes sense to me and does not hinder a less than reputable character from traveling through Empire space to get skills and whatnot. Just makes it a touchy situation for them and reinforces the criminal aspect of being a bad person.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.02 15:31:00 -
[34]
<<<<Honestly man, I welcome contructive criticism on my ideas and like a good debate, but please, know what the HELL you're talking about before you talk about it.>>>>
Hippey please refrain from making personal attacks and please refrain from deliberately misquoting. You're being pointlessly aggressive and its not needed as the moderator has already pointed out.
I said request a jump-scrambler. I said nothing about them being there.
As for team hunting, when we do it we have the team already in the other systems - we dont just tail-chase them and hope we catch up.
<<<There is no way to tell if they're docked or in space. So how exactly am I supposed to find them hmmm? >>>
Furthermore you can find anybody anywhere in system using the scanner - even if they have fallen-short after a jump. (Anybody - anywhere. If you don't know how to then join the Explorers channel in-game, they give lessons on how to use it fully). More pointedly this is nothing to do with preventing people jumping at gates. Nothing at all.
You can also bookmark gates (as we did for mara-passari) so you jump right onto them.. you don't have to jump in blind and hope you're somewhere nearby..
I'm in total agrement that bounty-hunting tools are sub-standard but none of that makes a case for preventing people from jumping at gates.
As i said - request a long-range jump-scrambler.
Edited by: Morkt Drak on 02/07/2003 15:32:23
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Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.02 15:58:00 -
[35]
I don't think I should spend a slot with this. It's illogical from RP perspective and gameplay perspective for someone to be shooting right up until the point they enter abnormal speeds that allow you to travel instantly between systems.
Okay that would be the RP perspective. The gameplay perspective, is that it's a cheap tactic that prevents bounty hunters from doing their jobs. It prevents ANYONE from wanting justice from the pirate.
I know you'd like unlimited restriction, but this is a game and it needs to have fun. Pirate having the upper hand in every situation is NOT fun. To have fun, you can't have anarchy. To prevent anarchy you have to have rules.
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Hippey
|
Posted - 2003.07.02 16:19:00 -
[36]
"As for team hunting, when we do it we have the team already in the other systems - we dont just tail-chase them and hope we catch up."
See this. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. Why should I need a team of at least 10 people to catch ONE stinking pirate? I'm a bounty hunter. Bounty hunters mostly hunt alone. I should be able to hunt ONE pirate on my own, get him into a 1on1 situation and fight him. Right now this is impossible, you yourself have stated it in the quote.
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Morkt Drakt
|
Posted - 2003.07.02 16:25:00 -
[37]
Its no more illogical than warping, from either perspective.
Following your logic there should also then be a timestamp on warping with hot-guns.
A Jump Scrambler solves the issue now and for when jump-engines are available also.
Its neater, doesn't impose gameplay restrictions, indeed adds to them, and also allows for counters. Player choices all round and additional depth to gameplay. Ya cant ask for more.
- - -
No it's not impossible, it's just not easy.
But that has nothing to do with stopping people jumping at gates.
Simply turn the tables - YOU wait at the gate for THEM.
With all the talk on how easy piracy is, and how they have the upper hand, emulating precisely what they do should be a piece of cake.
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Mynah Birde
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Posted - 2003.07.02 16:30:00 -
[38]
Having warp scramblers prevent you using gates works for me without the need for a new module. It has the bonus of being part of the already established electronic warfare mechanism. Much better than a new arbitrary game rule which a 15 second delay on jump if you fired your weapons lately would be.
I just think its a shame that these gate/portal/zoning issues weren't dealt with in beta. Every game to date that has PvP and bottlenecks where players have to warp in or out have had to deal with these problems, yet here is yet another one with the same issues.
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Balsak
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Posted - 2003.07.02 18:10:00 -
[39]
Alot of you seem to miss the point completely.
The point is simple.. YOU SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO CAMP A GATE WITH GUNS FIRING AND BE ABLE TO JUMP OUT AND LOG OFF JUST CAUSE SOME PEOPLE CAME TO KICK YOUR ASS.
If the warp scrambler prevented someone from using the gate then that would actually be quite acceptable.
Any reasonable solution to prevent people from gate camping and jumping instantly when they know they will get owned is fine with me. But to just reply with some of the rediculous statements that have been said is just pointless.
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mrmille
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Posted - 2003.07.02 18:24:00 -
[40]
Well I agree to some part that gate jumping should change to make it somewhat more difficult...for bouth pirates and travelers!
My suggestion is that you shouldn't be abel to jump while you are locked. That would even it up, also for the pirates since you just can't boost up your microwarp and jump yourself.
----------------------------
.-* www.eve.se | International fansite *-.
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.02 18:32:00 -
[41]
<<<<you shouldn't be abel to jump while you are locked.>>>>
Griefers heaven.
Locking isnt an offensive act.
I lock you with my shuttle and you can't jump.
Now what ya gonna do?
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Balsak
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Posted - 2003.07.02 19:28:00 -
[42]
Actually after some thinking I that the Warp Scambler preventing people from using the gate is worse. This will actually give the pirate an even bigger tool to screw people over since you cant warp away or jump through the gate.
The simplest solution is the time stamp on hot guns and not allow people who instigate an attack within 30kms to use the gate. Warping to another spot within system is perfectly acceptable
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Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.02 19:33:00 -
[43]
<<<This will actually give the pirate an even bigger tool to screw people over since you cant warp away or jump through the gate.>>>
Which is exactly what Hippey wants to be able to do TO pirates.
Jump Scramblers will owrk just as well as Warp Scramblers wihtout any false game mechanics that are so obviously biased to be anti-aggressor.
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Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.02 19:37:00 -
[44]
"Simply turn the tables - YOU wait at the gate for THEM."
Won't work as per my comments here: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=15293
This is why I claim there is no way to fight them, and you really still haven't given me one Morkt.
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Morkt Drakt
|
Posted - 2003.07.02 19:59:00 -
[45]
Worked fine for me - only problem is knowing where they are, where they are likely to go.
Im not here to solve others bounty-hunting problems though - hope you can see that. Nor is this suggestion of yours "just" about that, which is the problem - it affects all players.
Im against the idea of enforcing arbritrary gameplay mechanics on a subset of the populaiton.
Its unrealistic in the extreme - and it doesn't address your own problems with pinning down a pirate solo.
Why you are so set against a jump-scrambler yet accept a warp-scrambler ive no idea. its the simplest solution all round.
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Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.02 20:15:00 -
[46]
It's not MY problem that I can't catch a pirate. EVERY bounty hunters is. Name me some bounty hunters that have single-handedly killed the jump happy Tank?
Can't do it. He starts firing at you as soon as you exit at 20km .If you actually get his shields down, he jumps. You're still 5-6 km until you can get it range to jump. By this, pirate has popped on the other side and warped GOD KNOWS WHERE.
Reverse situation. You wait for HIM. He pops 20km out, he remembers you from your first meeting listed above. He knows you can hurt him. He immediatelly warps somewhere, all while in a timer. By the time the timer wears out, he's in warp and now you can NOT lock him. He sits there for 10 seconds laughing at you, whiule you try to figure which of those 8 icons all in one place he could be going to. Wheeeeeeee. It's VERY possible isn't it?
That's how 1on1's go. That's why no 1on1 ever actually HAPPEN!
Dammit man.. why can't you see that?
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If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Morkt Drakt
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Posted - 2003.07.02 20:22:00 -
[47]
I can. A bounty hunter after a pirate is identical to a pirate after a specific player.
That why most pirates dont go for specific players.
See that perfectly well and agreed there is a prolbme many posts back.
But your proposal here isn't the solution - for starters in your example wiith you waiting at teh gate and firing on the pirate all he has to do is run for the gate and jump out.
YOU then cant. YOU were the aggressor.
See?
Arbritrary rules ALWAYS backfire.
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Balsak
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Posted - 2003.07.02 20:49:00 -
[48]
Yes I do see and thats not such a problem in my opinion.
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Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.02 20:59:00 -
[49]
This will only hamper me if I am open fire and he never does. How often does that happen?
I warp in, first time we ever meet, he thinks I'm just another target. He opens fire at me. Ooops. Now you're screwed. You ain't jumping nowhere.
And the reason I don't want to use a jump scrambler is because that's one thing only BOUNTY hunters would need, not pirate, and medium slots are so very rare and precious as it is. Impossible for Minmatar ships, and Brutors apprently compromise most of the bounty hunters. The fact the Rifter is so fast signifies that.
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If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Morkt Drakt
|
Posted - 2003.07.02 21:47:00 -
[50]
nah that slike saying the only people who would want an anti-warp scrambler is traders.
Its true - but only as far as it goes.
A pirate would also want it if he thought someone was after him.
Which is the same for the jump scrambler.
The point is though that if you implemented something like this a pirate wouldn't fire back - because they then know they can get away.
If they think they can take you down they will fight - but then you cant get away.
It aint going to work.
jump-scrambler is the best solution.
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Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.02 21:57:00 -
[51]
Okay I'll admit that maybe it is. But how long will it take to create one of those and balance it and the anti-jump scrambler? And you have to admit that you don't know for a fact, and neither do I, what WILL happen if my idea is implemented. You don't know how pirates WILL act. You said it yourself, you're not a pirate.
I mean you're not going to be a big pirate by not firing at anyone that approaches the gate. You'll have to take the risk. And once you fire, you ain't going nowhere. That is, you're not JUMPING through THAT gate so easily. You can still warp out and warp to another gate, and by then, 30 seconds will have run out.
And bounty hunters don't ever plan on jumping through to escape. Not me, not the honorable ones. I came for the bounty, and I ain't leaving til I get it. So I ain't running.
Edited by: Hippey on 02/07/2003 21:58:43
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If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Crepiscule
|
Posted - 2003.07.02 22:13:00 -
[52]
I'll comment if you don't mind. If a ship comes in and won't stop for extortion then we will fire on it.
Hip's solution wouldn't really effect me so much as maybe others because I'm not usually near the gate. I'll warp to a planet or a bookmark most likely.
The Jump scrambler has the benefit of being usable by anyone (pirates included). However I can already hear the cries of anguish by players who normally would make a run to the gate but can't since the pirates have jammed them.
You can bet %99.9 of pirates will have one with them at a gate. My guess is players running shipments would not. Therefore it would be looked at as another way pirates are having it easy.
Edited by: Crepiscule on 02/07/2003 22:13:59
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Ehxo
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Posted - 2003.07.02 22:21:00 -
[53]
There's one thing that bugs me with the idea about preventing someone to jump after attacking anything, INCLUDING NPC pirates...
That would mean that someone wouldn't be able to kill pirates (NPC) and then just warp away to continue his route.
30 seconds is WAY too long too, 10-15 seconds is plenty enough as well.
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Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.02 22:40:00 -
[54]
Nononono, I never said the timer should work on NPC entities. Only players.
And good point Crepicule :)
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Morkt Drakt
|
Posted - 2003.07.02 23:20:00 -
[55]
it is a good point Crep - but i'd just refer us all to what Hipper said earlier:
"Med slots are precious"
Now a "pirate" has to have 3 med slots for Jump-scramble, warp-scramble and Stasis-web
The "target" only needs to counter one of those to get the chance to "get away".
Thus the benefit is with the escapee.
- - -
Obviously this means that it makes the job of the "Hunter" (pirate OR bountyhunter) harder in terms of what they "must always equip".
Looks like the solo bounty hunter will need a scorpion (which, oddly enough, is what i said about 4 months ago)
Edit: Btw i still say that finding them is the hardest job, not killing them - and you should still need a license! (positive sec only)
Edited by: Morkt Drak on 02/07/2003 23:22:11
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Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.03 00:39:00 -
[56]
Oh hell yes. You should need to have a license and getting a license gets you special tools and items, but that's coming in and is somewhat long term.
I'm saying we need a short-term solution and this just seems the easiest.
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Morkt Drakt
|
Posted - 2003.07.03 00:43:00 -
[57]
nah
jump-scramblers the easiest.... by far, doesn't need to checks on aggresor or any of that.
which reminds me that the new gate code might play with the idea in anycase, can only attack lower than -5 in empire space without gate guns getting involved.
Scramble and stasis are now "aggressive" moves - so....
need to check that though.
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Crepiscule
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Posted - 2003.07.03 01:03:00 -
[58]
I guess I look at it from a team perspective. I wouldn't be running all of those things but at least one of the people in my gang would.
For the solo pirate scenario this is good. For the gang of pirates, I see the situation worse for the indie pilots or whoever has the misfortune to warp to the gate.
But if keeping players from using the jumpgates is your goal, I think the scrambler is the best answer at this time.
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Hippey
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Posted - 2003.07.03 04:08:00 -
[59]
Well fine if my idea is bad, scrap it. But please CCP, I hope you implement SOMETHING soon.
-------------------------------------------
If you kill them, they will die!
Sport the war, war support
The sport is war, total war
When victory's really a massacre.
The final swing is not a drill
It's how many people I can kill! |
Balsak
|
Posted - 2003.07.03 04:24:00 -
[60]
If the gate guns attacks someone who opens fire on anyone with a -5 sec or better then that might be very good solution.
Like Hippey said. Something needs to be done. It really is rather silly for someone with -10 sec to just sit and attack anyone he feels he wants to and then just jump through the gate and log off to freedom. This would be fine and acceptable behaviour in 0.0 space or even 0.1 space.
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Xelios
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Posted - 2003.07.03 04:31:00 -
[61]
Yes, good idea Hippey, I should have read this thread before posting my own =P
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Intruders
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Posted - 2003.07.03 05:33:00 -
[62]
All points raised are very good, my personal thoughts are that in order to see some balanced battle (this time between pirates and non-pirates) lots of things have to be changed that will affect the overall game mechanics, many happy pirates know this very well, and this is why they were and will keep flaming posts like these, they just want to stop this kind of posts short, because everyday more players will understand that piracy in eve is just wussines and exploitation of incomplete and unbalanced game mechanics, as several people very succesfully noted above. This is my first time witnessing something like this, a game engine that needs tweaking and realigning in order for the game to be playable, this means a complete reprogamming, I dont know of any game that reprogrammed is whole engine, after it was aout of release, hell I dont even know of any beta that did this. Seems to me that CCP didnt programmed their act really good and now they have to face the music, which is?
Probably something really scary.
Edited by: Intruders on 03/07/2003 05:33:27
Every man lives..but not every man dies!
My sig sux |
Sarkos
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Posted - 2003.07.03 07:07:00 -
[63]
Ok, let's get blunt here. For ease of writting, I will use the Minmatar Republic as an example.
1) The Minmatar Republic has laws. They have gate guns, military ships and police as well as Concorde to help enforce them.
2) No pirate with a bounty should be allowed to enter Minmatar Republic space without fear of gate or system guns opening up on them, refusal of docking requests, being chased by military or police, Concorde being brought into it or the refusal of a jumpgate to activate for them. They are known and wanted criminals.
Right now pirates gate camp, picking off the weak and if opposed by an equal or greater threat, they jump or warp to a station, dock and log. This should not be. You dock in a Republic base and you carry the WANTED moniker, goodby character, ARRESTED. You want to play by the pirates rules, then accept the pirates problems. No place to hide in a government controlled area. Make it so a pirate has to jam the gate to get it to work, adding 30 seconds to anyone with a WANTED tag, all the while the guns will be shooting him. This should happen regardles of the security level of the system. The gate and guns are automated. The base guns and docking controlled by the base. A low security system only means a lack of patrols and active support.
Sarkos - Oracle
Either free the slaves or we will come and get them.
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Artean
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Posted - 2003.07.03 07:38:00 -
[64]
Agree Sarkos. Players with a bounty should absolutly suffer some difficulties. From a RL point of view, I feel that both beeing arrested (or refused to dock) on stations in high sec systems and having problems using the governmental owned jump gates would be fair way of deeling with the current situation. As a criminal one should, naturally, lack of social services. Using the sec lvl status is the natural tool in the game, and will only affect those it intends to.
........
There is a fine line between gate camping and just standing by a gate, looking like an idiot... |
annoing
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Posted - 2003.07.03 13:06:00 -
[65]
to redundency:
Yeah it was a bit heated for a while...but your comment about the argument not helping the developers is nearly as funny as Tombs 'balancing' joke concerning the weapons now.
Let them flame.......its funny but not as funny as the devs or moderators comments
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The Inquisition
Long live the Inquisition
Long live the Emperor
Long live Amarr!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> |
Silmaril
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Posted - 2003.07.03 13:09:00 -
[66]
Can you say anything constructive? Evry post you seem to do nothing but complian at the devs.
The weapons are getting more balanced imo, because its getting harder for players to just wipe out everything in sight without worrying, which to my mind can be nothing but good.
"Do not waste your tears. I was not born to watch the world grow dim. Life is not measured in years, but by the deeds of men." |
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