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Guns vs missiles in small scale PvP

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Denuo Secus	Posted - 2011.04.21 10:26:00 - [1] Edited by: Denuo Secus on 21/04/2011 10:31:10 Hi all, I'm a missile enthusiast. I've maxed all main and support skills and use them with great success in PvE. And despite the missile (Caldari) bashing here and there I also remained faithfull when using them in PvP. But with more and more experience in PvP I come to one conclusion: missiles are bad for small gang PvP. Reason: application of the particular missile types is too narrow. Target selection is decided during fitting, not in space. That's ok for medium and larger fleets where's a ship for every role..but in small gang PvP (2-5 people) it's important to have options in space. Turrets are offering more options imho. Just by navigating and how the tracking works. While using missiles I'd either need a special ship for every job...or I'd need to fit additional support modules like TPs or special rigs. But this would lower my overall performance - speed, tank, tackle... Example: I'm in a HM Drake fighting a Cane. The HM Drake works here. It does good damage against a BC. According to my EFT DPS graph tests any other tier 2 BC wouldn't be much better. Maybe a bit, but the Drake offers range and nice buffer in exchange. But then a Wolf appears on the field...tackles me and pops my drones. In my HM Drake I can do enough damage to chase him of. But he just taps his MWD and flies out of lock range... comes back and continues. I never have any chance to pop the frig with HMs - not even with precisions. A turret ship could do this, simply by navigating or just due to good conditions (range, transversal). I guess it becomes worse for the HM Drake in case any cruiser hull comes into play. HAC or T3 for instance. Assuming a BS appears: the Drake could change to Fury missiles, which brings ~50 more DPS (3x BCU fitted). A Harbinger (for instance) could go close and change to Navy MF. This would bring ~110 DPS compared to Scorch. To do the same with a Drake I need to dock and change to HAMs -> which are very bad against small stuff then again. -- This is no Caldari rant. I know they have their uses - but it seems not for me in my small fleet. I post this to hear other opinions. Is there something I overlocked? What is your experience in small scale PvP when using missiles? Thanks! - Save the missiles from the glowing blob :S R ----------> * A --------> * V --------> * E -------> * N ---------> *
Daneel Trevize Black Viper Nomads	Posted - 2011.04.21 10:54:00 - [2] For the wolf thing: He cannot tackle you without you tackling him. You can hit him at range where he cannot hit you. You can drive him off and warp away, but you cannot always catch what you can kill and this is not something limited to missile boats. At least he cannot get under your guns and kill you while you can do nothing back. This is the big thing, you are always hitting your target no matter how they fly. You can choose damage types, lasers and hybrids can't. You even have F.O.F and ..defenders....
Noemi Nagano	Posted - 2011.04.21 11:02:00 - [3] Yeah seriously, I also dont see the disadvantage of missiles here - if that Wolf manages to get close enough to a turret BC not fitted with some other anti-frig stuff like neuts that BC will die (if buffer tanked). A Drake could at least be able to chase him off, which is all you want in that case. Or am I wrong here?
Straight Edged	Posted - 2011.04.21 11:24:00 - [4] HM Drakes are very good against cruiser and BC class. And decent against Battleships (with furies) HAM drake is no better then HM, as Drake is fast enough to not let any battleship get in short range. Heavy missiles also ****S drones. You can instapop hobo's and 2-hit hammers with help of your own drones. HAM on the other hand, blows against cruisers like vagabond and frigs. You can fit neuts if you are really scared about frigs. By default really, frigs cant break your tank. So you are fine if you are close to a station or gate.
Ksharaa	Posted - 2011.04.21 11:25:00 - [5] Edited by: Ksharaa on 21/04/2011 11:28:28 Missiles are fine in small scale pvp. In general, missiles apply their damage more consistently than turrets -- though perhaps at a lower mean damage/second. This can be both an advantage or disadvantage, depending on the situation. For large fleets outside of a drake fleet, DPS ships relying on missiles for damage are largely useless. This is because the missile ships have an inherent inability to change and apply damage to the primary immediately. This inability is important when the fleet is large enough to only require a few volleys to pop the primary. You cannot apply your full dps to all targets. This is intended, and is perhaps the single most important reason why hull size has any relevance. This restriction, as has been pointed out already, is (effectively) not limited to just missiles. It sounds like you are looking for a ship that can excel in all roles. Flying PvP in eve is about specialization and prioritization. This is the reason why PvP in EVE is so diverse. If you want to fit a bait drake, fit tank and increase your chances of surviving until help arrives. If you want to fit a small ship killer setup, do that and you will increase your chances against small ships. Similarly for max damage, max kite ability, or fleet versatility. If you try to simultaneously fit for all of these things (in ANY ship), you will be pretty bad at all of them. EDIT: Agony-Unleashed offers PvP courses that cover these concepts both in theory and practice, and much more. Check out agony-unleashed.com if you are interested.
Korg Tronix The Mabinogion	Posted - 2011.04.21 11:36:00 - [6] Also learn how to fit your heavy missile drakes properly, I have managed to kill a fairly well fit vengeance with a HAM Drake before so it is possible. Against anything Cruiser and up a Drake will do nice consistent DPS, against frigs it can be an issue but still not as bad due to them not being able to get under your missiles like guns.
Denuo Secus	Posted - 2011.04.21 11:54:00 - [7] Originally by: Ksharaa ...It sounds like you are looking for a ship that can excel in all roles.... Ofc not. I see the point in diversity and appreciate it. Maybe I expected a bit too much. It's just about occurrences like: a corp mate in a Punisher got insta popped by a pulse Abbadon. Such things can happen with turrets but are completely impossible with missiles...on the other side a missile ship can chase the frig away - reliable. - Save the missiles from the glowing blob :S R ----------> * A --------> * V --------> * E -------> * N ---------> *
Swynet	Posted - 2011.04.21 11:56:00 - [8] Quote: But then a Wolf appears on the field...tackles me and pops my drones. In my HM Drake I can do enough damage to chase him of. But he just taps his MWD and flies out of lock range... comes back and continues. I never have any chance to pop the frig with HMs - not even with precisions. A turret ship could do this, simply by navigating or just due to good conditions (range, transversal). Change missiles? Without implants and maxed skills your HM explosion radius is about 60M if you have at least 1 T2 flare 1T2 rigor you will make him sweat and all he can do is bother you but not kill you. Change your target, blow the Hurricane When you say turrets I hope you're not talking of hybrids because I'll think you're the month troll, now Auto canons yes, I do think they are a lot better than everything in small engagements except the cloaky Proteus +1K dps 135K ehp without implants. It's just my opinion. ________________________________________________ Originally by: Goose99 In EVE, PVE can happen anywhere, anytime. Whenever you undock, you subject yourself to involuntary PVE.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2011.04.21 12:01:00 - [9] Edited by: Gypsio III on 21/04/2011 12:01:40 Originally by: Denuo Secus But then a Wolf appears on the field...tackles me and pops my drones. In my HM Drake I can do enough damage to chase him of. But he just taps his MWD and flies out of lock range... comes back and continues. I never have any chance to pop the frig with HMs - not even with precisions. A turret ship could do this, simply by navigating or just due to good conditions (range, transversal). WTF is this drivel? Really. HM Drake vs. MWD AF? You can kill ABing AFs with a HAM Drake under sentry fire. Try tackling the Wolf. Then it won't just fly off out of your range. You should be able to kill a tackled MWD Wolf in a HM Drake before it kills your drones anyway. If it's smart enough not to come within web range, then it'll quite quickly disengage as it realises it's getting pounded. Or are you not bothering to fit a web? If you were in a gunship, the Wolf would try to get under your tracking. If successful (let's ignore neuts here!), you may as well stop firing, because you won't hit it.
Denuo Secus	Posted - 2011.04.21 12:30:00 - [10] Edited by: Denuo Secus on 21/04/2011 12:32:01 Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 21/04/2011 12:01:40 Originally by: Denuo Secus But then a Wolf appears on the field...tackles me and pops my drones. In my HM Drake I can do enough damage to chase him of. But he just taps his MWD and flies out of lock range... comes back and continues. I never have any chance to pop the frig with HMs - not even with precisions. A turret ship could do this, simply by navigating or just due to good conditions (range, transversal). WTF is this drivel? Really. HM Drake vs. MWD AF? You can kill ABing AFs with a HAM Drake under sentry fire. Try tackling the Wolf. Then it won't just fly off out of your range. You should be able to kill a tackled MWD Wolf in a HM Drake before it kills your drones anyway. If it's smart enough not to come within web range, then it'll quite quickly disengage as it realises it's getting pounded. Or are you not bothering to fit a web? If you were in a gunship, the Wolf would try to get under your tracking. If successful (let's ignore neuts here!), you may as well stop firing, because you won't hit it. I'd have the check the combat logs again but I guess it was an arty wolf. After my first volley he kept distance out of my disruptor or even web range. Maybe he assumed HAMs first. Also, there was no sentry fire. I was able to fend him off! And I know what happens if said frig gets under gun tracking. This is not my point. I do not claim a missile ship is helpless against frigs. My point: - a gun ship can instapopp frigs and can switch to high damage ammo and do much more damage against larger targets (see: lasers are a good example I think) - a missile ship does average damage to all. It does not destroy a competent flown frig, it fends him off I was able to pop 3 rifters before dying to the neut Dominix in my Zealot. A HAC known for it's bad suitability against frigs. While ratting in a HM Drake a group of Taranii (?) attacked me. I was able to escape. See the difference? I don't do PvP to be able to survive or to scare my opponents. I want to beat them. In a missile ship I need to prepare for a particular target type much more than in a gun ship - imho. - Save the missiles from the glowing blob :S R ----------> * A --------> * V --------> * E -------> * N ---------> *
Korg Tronix The Mabinogion	Posted - 2011.04.21 12:43:00 - [11] Originally by: Denuo Secus Edited by: Denuo Secus on 21/04/2011 12:32:01 Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 21/04/2011 12:01:40 Originally by: Denuo Secus But then a Wolf appears on the field...tackles me and pops my drones. In my HM Drake I can do enough damage to chase him of. But he just taps his MWD and flies out of lock range... comes back and continues. I never have any chance to pop the frig with HMs - not even with precisions. A turret ship could do this, simply by navigating or just due to good conditions (range, transversal). WTF is this drivel? Really. HM Drake vs. MWD AF? You can kill ABing AFs with a HAM Drake under sentry fire. Try tackling the Wolf. Then it won't just fly off out of your range. You should be able to kill a tackled MWD Wolf in a HM Drake before it kills your drones anyway. If it's smart enough not to come within web range, then it'll quite quickly disengage as it realises it's getting pounded. Or are you not bothering to fit a web? If you were in a gunship, the Wolf would try to get under your tracking. If successful (let's ignore neuts here!), you may as well stop firing, because you won't hit it. I'd have the check the combat logs again but I guess it was an arty wolf. After my first volley he kept distance out of my disruptor or even web range. Maybe he assumed HAMs first. Also, there was no sentry fire. I was able to fend him off! And I know what happens if said frig gets under gun tracking. This is not my point. I do not claim a missile ship is helpless against frigs. My point: - a gun ship can instapopp frigs and can switch to high damage ammo and do much more damage against larger targets (see: lasers are a good example I think) - a missile ship does average damage to all. It does not destroy a competent flown frig, it fends him off I was able to pop 3 rifters before dying to the neut Dominix in my Zealot. A HAC known for it's bad suitability against frigs. While ratting in a HM Drake a group of Taranii (?) attacked me. I was able to escape. See the difference? I don't do PvP to be able to survive or to scare my opponents. I want to beat them. In a missile ship I need to prepare for a particular target type much more than in a gun ship - imho. You can kill any frigate in a HML Drake if its competently fitted and flown.
Denuo Secus	Posted - 2011.04.21 12:45:00 - [12] Originally by: Korg Tronix You can kill any frigate in a HML Drake if its competently fitted and flown. Care to elaborate? That's why I started this thread. I want to learn what I did/do wrong. - Save the missiles from the glowing blob :S R ----------> * A --------> * V --------> * E -------> * N ---------> *
Korg Tronix The Mabinogion	Posted - 2011.04.21 12:49:00 - [13] Originally by: Denuo Secus Originally by: Korg Tronix You can kill any frigate in a HML Drake if its competently fitted and flown. Care to elaborate? That's why I started this thread. I want to learn what I did/do wrong. A heavy missile drake with a web will do enough dps that the wolf wouldn't survive under your drones and missile fire
Patient 2428190 DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School	Posted - 2011.04.21 12:54:00 - [14] Honestly, other than a Myrm spitting out waves of bonused light drones, no other BC as good at shooting frigates with its weapon systems than the HML Drake. Guns do not fare well against smaller targets. In a close orbit and under your tracking, a decently flown frigate can mitigate nearly all of medium/large turret fire.A lot of the turret ships have energy neuts for this reason. While tackling a frigate may be an issue with a Drake, applying HML DPS shouldn't be. If you really want to make sure you sting the frigate hard, fit a target painter and a web. ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2011.04.21 13:19:00 - [15] Originally by: Denuo Secus Edited by: Denuo Secus on 21/04/2011 12:51:04 Originally by: Korg Tronix You can kill any frigate in a HML Drake if its competently fitted and flown. Care to elaborate? That's why I started this thread. I want to learn what I did/do wrong. Edit: what I do know so far: - Rigors/Flares: reduces my tank but I can apply my damage better - TP/Web: same, see above - Damage type selection: no kinetic missiles against Gallente T2 and so on... - Precision missiles: I'm not sure tbh What did I miss? Especially I'm interested in the "flown" part. Asking for advice is good. Complaining that X is bad because it can't do Y, when most pilots know this to be false, is bad because it makes you look silly and uninterested in advice. So, since you're now asking for advice... Clearly, if your frigate opponent is smart enough not to come within web range, then you shouldn't expect to be able to do more than to "drive him off". But this applies to gunships as well as missile boats. And note that if he does come within web range, then with modern weakish webs he's still got a chance of disengaging. Which is a good thing, really. A 60% web has the same effect as a 150% painter, in terms of reducing damage mitigation via speed, and helps keep your target tackled to boot. Therefore for solo stuff like you described it's normally better to fit a web than a painter, despite the web's limited range. For guided missiles, rigour rigs are better than Flare rigs, and neither suffer a stacking penalty from multiple rigs. Precisions offer a small damage increase to small fast targets over CN, at the cost of half the range. It's rarely worth reloading to them. I typically don't bother carrying them. Don't deploy drones against a target like a Wolf orbiting you at 24 km - you'll just get them blown up - unless you absolutely need to apply max DPS ASAP (gank squad incoming, for example). Don't deploy them until you get a web on the frigate, then deploy them, approach and prepare to overheat all tackle and gank mods, as it will be trying to GTFO. If your target won't come within web range, then you can try to achieve this by intercepting his orbit (difficulty ranges from hard to impossible) or by making yourself look like a moron. If you don't deploy drones, then maybe he'll think you're not carrying any. If you deliberately fire less than a full volley of missiles, and of the wrong damage type, then he'll note the feeble damage and may think that you're clueless and be more inclined to close in.
Why S0 Serious	Posted - 2011.04.21 13:59:00 - [16] 1: Get 'Drake' 2: Fit 2x nano's, 2x BCU's to 'Drake' 3: Get a 'Loki' 4: Fit 'Loki' with gang links (36km T2 warp disruption range, yay.) 5: Fit snakes to Drake pilot's 6: Dominate The above works a lot better with HML drake's rather then turret based ships because of their range, they also have the mids for a DG stasis web (which hits almost 20km overheated) with Loki gang booster. HM range + zero tracking issues > projectiles for fall off and lasers due to cap use (cap weaps + nano = bad mix).
Von Kroll Caldari Kroll's Legion	Posted - 2011.04.21 14:16:00 - [17] Even without the pimp booster alt, A Drake with a point and web will be very successful against frigate-sized targets. If he comes in for a tackle, he's done for. I don't think missile rigs are even necessary. If you really want to shut them down, a point and double webs will make tackling you very lethal. A Drake can use 3 mid-slots for the tackle gear, and still have a very effective tank. As for your original theory about missiles being bad for small gang PvP, I think you're wrong. Small gang PvP is the best place for missiles. In fleets at range, missiles really are not as efficient as massed gunfire, except in certain situations.
Why S0 Serious	Posted - 2011.04.21 14:18:00 - [18] Edited by: Why S0 Serious on 21/04/2011 14:18:12 Originally by: Von Kroll As for your original theory about missiles being bad for small gang PvP, I think you're wrong. Small gang PvP is the best place for missiles. In fleets at range, missiles really are not as efficient as massed gunfire, except in certain situations. This
Swynet	Posted - 2011.04.21 14:50:00 - [19] Originally by: Why S0 Serious ... Dammit, you should rename your toon "Dracula" ________________________________________________ Originally by: Goose99 In EVE, PVE can happen anywhere, anytime. Whenever you undock, you subject yourself to involuntary PVE.
Vokradacka	Posted - 2011.04.21 15:13:00 - [20] Small targets , that is a reason why i ussualy fly huricane over drake. drake is ussualy better agains bigger target , but hurricane own every frigate size target in 10-20 secs. there is NO way how avoid dmg from huricane( with mwd+ M.neuts) . = use brain and fly drake vs BC\BS\cruiser+ sizes with scramb+web.
Zerp Metesur	Posted - 2011.04.21 16:04:00 - [21] Missiles are superb for small gang work due to their ability to change between the 4 damage types and tank bust. If you're worried about frigates then fit a neut.
Noemi Nagano	Posted - 2011.04.24 07:04:00 - [22] Originally by: Von Kroll Even without the pimp booster alt, A Drake with a point and web will be very successful against frigate-sized targets. If he comes in for a tackle, he's done for. I don't think missile rigs are even necessary. If you really want to shut them down, a point and double webs will make tackling you very lethal. A Drake can use 3 mid-slots for the tackle gear, and still have a very effective tank. As for your original theory about missiles being bad for small gang PvP, I think you're wrong. Small gang PvP is the best place for missiles. In fleets at range, missiles really are not as efficient as massed gunfire, except in certain situations. While I do agree a Drake can fit a decent tank with only 3 medslots used (and 1 lowslot, ofc) I dont see how you fit an MWD or AB there, which will be of great importance in most encounters (and be it your ability to get back to gate). So sacrificing an MWD for the second web is a bit much in my opinion .. Ah, and I also think the Cane makes a decent frig killer, esp with TE & 220mm fittings.

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