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Scorpion Navy Issue DPS increase

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Vetinari Havelock	Posted - 2011.04.22 14:44:00 - [1] I'm currently using this ship for running level IV's but need a way to increase my dps. EFT tells me I'm only doing 325 dps so missions csn take a bit longer than I would like. My fit is as follows low slots: Power Diag II x3 Mark I Generator X1 Mids: Invuln II x1 X-Large Shield Boost II x1 Shield Boost Amp II x1 Magnetic Scattering Amp II x1 Heat Dissipation Amp II x1 Peripheral Weapon Navigation Diameter x1 Cap Recharger II x2 Highs: XT-9000 Cruise x4 Heavy Missile I x2 Drone Control Range Augmentor x1 Rigs: Large CCC I x3 Drones: Hammerhead II I'm cap stable with a bit of a buffer in case of NOS but would like to be able to complee missions a little quicker. Any suggestions?
Mike712	Posted - 2011.04.22 15:02:00 - [2] Edited by: Mike712 on 22/04/2011 15:04:31 That is an incredibly bad setup. You have 0 ballistic controls and 2 heavy launchers(the navy scorp doesn't get a damage bonus to heavies), it really shouldn't surprise you that your DPS totally sucks. The target painter is good, it will increase your damage to cruisers somewhat but to make the most of your theoretical DPS you really want 3 x rigor rigs too. Scale back your tank allot, possibly invest in a decent shield booster, gist large are prefect for that ship. Also better launchers, arbalest as a bare minimum, but you really should train for tech 2, and seriously get rig of those ridiculous heavies and fit all 6 cruise launchers. Fit like this: [Scorpion Navy Issue, Cheap Lv4 SNI ] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron (or ECCM/Afterburner) Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron X-Large Shield Booster II Shield Boost Amplifier II Heat Dissipation Field II Photon Scattering Field II Invulnerability Field II 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile 'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Paradise Cruise Missile Small Tractor Beam I Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I Then work towards something like this: [Scorpion Navy Issue, Lv4 SNI] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron Cap Recharger II Gist C-Type Large Shield Booster Shield Boost Amplifier II Shield Boost Amplifier II Heat Dissipation Field II Photon Scattering Field II Invulnerability Field II Cruise Missile Launcher II, Wrath Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Wrath Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Wrath Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Wrath Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Wrath Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Wrath Fury Cruise Missile Small Tractor Beam I Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II Large Warhead Flare Catalyst I
Merrik Talorra Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2011.04.22 15:05:00 - [3] Drop the heavy missile launchers and throw two more cruise in the highs. Use your drones for hitting the small stuff. Are you trying to perma-run the XL booster? That's probably not needed, and borders on overkill. Drop some of the lows out and put Ballistic Controls in for their RoF and damage bonus. That will help. I have a passive fit that works well. Others around have active fits that are pretty great too. What mission NPCs are you fighting most?
Mike712	Posted - 2011.04.22 15:15:00 - [4] Originally by: Merrik Talorra I have a passive fit that works well. Passive fit to me implies, shield power relays and purger rigs, which means less ballistic controls and no rigor rigs....eeew :P
Merrik Talorra Northstar Cabal R.A.G.E	Posted - 2011.04.22 16:06:00 - [5] Originally by: Mike712 Originally by: Merrik Talorra I have a passive fit that works well. Passive fit to me implies, shield power relays and purger rigs, which means less ballistic controls and no rigor rigs....eeew :P I haven't flown it in ages, so I don't remember what the lows are. I know it's got some CN BCS on it, and yes it has purgers. It worked great for doing something mindless (watching the youtubes) while mindlessly running missions. If I go back to it in the future, I'll shell out the ISK for a deadspace shield booster and refit it around that.
NoNah	Posted - 2011.04.22 16:13:00 - [6] 1) Passive tanks suck for missions and most types of pve. 2) Mixing guns is never a good idea. 3) Scorpion Navy Issue has a terribly low damage output meaning it's useless for missions compared to the alternatives. 4) You typically want as few slots spent on tank as possible. Ships with tanking bonus generally gets by with 2-3. You have 14. 5) You spend 350 mil on a ship, but won't spend the extra million on arbalest launchers? Parrots, commence! Postcount: 170767
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.04.22 17:50:00 - [7] Overtanked and hugely underdamage. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Caleidascope Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2011.04.22 18:03:00 - [8] I run variation of Mike712 fit. Level 4 Navy Scorpion 6x arbalest/t2 cruise missile launchers 1x x-large shield booster 2x t2 shield boost amplifiers 2x primary damage resist amplifiers 2x secondary damage resist amplifiers 1x cap recharger 4x t2 bcs 3x rigor rigs 5x hammerheads 5x hobgoblins
Dorian Wylde	Posted - 2011.04.22 18:18:00 - [9] Originally by: NoNah 1) Passive tanks suck for missions and most types of pve. Passive tanks are only good in pve. Don't confuse passive with buffer.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.04.22 18:42:00 - [10] Originally by: Dorian Wylde Originally by: NoNah 1) Passive tanks suck for missions and most types of pve. Passive tanks are only good in pve. àand they're not particularly good there either. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki

Milla Jovobitch	Posted - 2011.04.22 18:46:00 - [11] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Dorian Wylde Originally by: NoNah 1) Passive tanks suck for missions and most types of pve. Passive tanks are only good in pve. àand they're not particularly good there either. L5 missions with tons of neut towers.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.04.22 18:53:00 - [12] Originally by: Milla Jovo***** L5 missions with tons of neut towers. Rather narrow use, and there are better ways of dealing with those anyway. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Sunviking	Posted - 2011.04.22 20:32:00 - [13] This is not how a Navy Scorp should be fit, but happy to help you get your proper fit. I use a Navy Scorp as my main Lvl4 mission-runner. It is considerably cheaper than a Navy Raven, plus it actually has enough CPU to enable you to have a proper Tech2 fitting without having to resort to Faction modules. You can buy and fit the below for about ISK600million: Lows 4 x Ballistic Control System II Mids 2 x Phased Weapon Generation Array Extron 3 x Shield Hardeners II (your choice which) 1 x Heavy Capacitor Booster II 1 x Large Shield Booster II 1 x Shield Amplifier II Highs 6 x Cruise Missile Launcher II 1 x Small Tractor Beam I Rigs 2 x Large Warhead Flare Catalyst II 1 x Large Warhead Rigor II Drone 5 x Hornet 5 x Acolyte 5 x Warrior
Mavnas	Posted - 2011.04.22 22:52:00 - [14] Originally by: NoNah 1) Passive tanks suck for missions and most types of pve. 2) Mixing guns is never a good idea. 3) Scorpion Navy Issue has a terribly low damage output meaning it's useless for missions compared to the alternatives. 4) You typically want as few slots spent on tank as possible. Ships with tanking bonus generally gets by with 2-3. You have 14. 5) You spend 350 mil on a ship, but won't spend the extra million on arbalest launchers? 1 is not at all true. You just need to remember that a passive tank doesn't need to be any stronger than you need to win. In other words, lose the SPRs and pack more BCUs.
NoNah	Posted - 2011.04.22 23:08:00 - [15] Originally by: Mavnas 1 is not at all true. You just need to remember that a passive tank doesn't need to be any stronger than you need to win. In other words, lose the SPRs and pack more BCUs. I'd love to see a sample setup of it. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 939937
Vetinari Havelock	Posted - 2011.04.23 02:36:00 - [16] Thanks for the tips guys. I knew it wasn't a particularly good fit. I tend to get hung up on the idea of running eveything at once and still being cap stable. May have to give a couple of these fits a try and see what works for me.
Mike712	Posted - 2011.04.23 03:46:00 - [17] Originally by: Mavnas Originally by: NoNah 1) Passive tanks suck for missions and most types of pve. 2) Mixing guns is never a good idea. 3) Scorpion Navy Issue has a terribly low damage output meaning it's useless for missions compared to the alternatives. 4) You typically want as few slots spent on tank as possible. Ships with tanking bonus generally gets by with 2-3. You have 14. 5) You spend 350 mil on a ship, but won't spend the extra million on arbalest launchers? 1 is not at all true. You just need to remember that a passive tank doesn't need to be any stronger than you need to win. In other words, lose the SPRs and pack more BCUs. While passive tanks do work in PvE, generally they use allot more slots/rigs than an active tank to achieve the same amount of defense, meaning you have less slots to use on increasing your DPS output.
Von Kroll Caldari Kroll's Legion	Posted - 2011.04.23 13:17:00 - [18] I'll never understand why people fit 1 or 2 Target Painters on Cruise Missile mission ships with Rigor Rigs... Guided Missile Precision skill ftw...
Patient 2428190 DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School	Posted - 2011.04.23 13:37:00 - [19] Originally by: Von Kroll I'll never understand why people fit 1 or 2 Target Painters on Cruise Missile mission ships with Rigor Rigs... Guided Missile Precision skill ftw... Applying full damage to rats is p. important to finishing missions quicker. ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.04.23 14:06:00 - [20] Originally by: Von Kroll I'll never understand why people fit 1 or 2 Target Painters on Cruise Missile mission ships with Rigor Rigs... Guided Missile Precision skill ftw... Because without them, you can't use Fury cruises against cruisers, battlecruisers (and even some battleships) without damage lossà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki

ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God United Front Alliance	Posted - 2011.04.23 14:24:00 - [21] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 23/04/2011 14:26:33 Originally by: NoNah 1) Passive tanks suck for missions and most types of pve. Very incorrect. Passive tanks are amazing for PVE. My passive tank setup will tank level 5s while putting out over 500 instant DPS using T2 and Meta 4 mods with 2 faction resistance amplifiers. (And honestly, it can be done with T2 resistance amplifiers if you're fighting the right rats.) I wouldn't suggest using the passive tank on the Navy Scorpion because of the limits it'll place on missile DPS, but not every passive setup has these limitations. Discoverer of the Original Missile Damage Formula
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.04.23 14:49:00 - [22] Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK Very incorrect. Passive tanks are amazing for PVE. No, he's quite correct. Passive tanks are massively inefficient for the amount of space they take up, which means they'll inevitably encroach on your damage output. Quote: not every passive setup has these limitations. All passive setups use lowslots that are better put to use for more damage. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Von Kroll Caldari Kroll's Legion	Posted - 2011.04.23 15:05:00 - [23] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Von Kroll I'll never understand why people fit 1 or 2 Target Painters on Cruise Missile mission ships with Rigor Rigs... Guided Missile Precision skill ftw... Because without them, you can't use Fury cruises against cruisers, battlecruisers (and even some battleships) without damage lossà With GMP IV, you have an explosion radius of 270m with 3 T1 Rigors equipped. With GMP V trained, it drops to 250. That means you're hitting all NPC battleships for full damage, and almost all BCs for full damage potential. This doesn't take into account the lower explosion velocity and higher damage reduction factor. Are you guys really seeing a significant increase in damage against BC and BS sized rats with painters? Against cruisers--I guess you can potentially hit a bit harder, but I would have guessed drones would work better. I don't mission very much, so I trust you guys have it all dialed in. I just figured you would have hit the point of diminishing returns.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.04.23 16:12:00 - [24] Originally by: Von Kroll With GMP IV, you have an explosion radius of 270m with 3 T1 Rigors equipped. With GMP V trained, it drops to 250. That means you're hitting all NPC battleships for full damage, and almost all BCs for full damage potential. This doesn't take into account the lower explosion velocity and higher damage reduction factor. àand that's what comes back to bite you. Having an explosion radius that is lower than the sig radius of the target simply means you can hit for full damage if the target is sitting still. They won't be. So that means we get into the speed factor, where you still want to push that size ratio as high as possible, and it's no longer capped at 1:1 (the total result still is, but there are also other factors that drag that result down and you want to counteract them). For instance, with a 2:1 sigrad-to-exprad ratio ù say, if you're shooting a beefy Gurista battleship ù this means that you can still have a 1:2 expvel-to-speed ratio without ill effects. In this case, it means that the ship can travel upwards of 160m/s and still be hit with full damage. Or say that you're shooting at a BC with a 270m radius ù i.e. you have a 1:1 size ratio without any painters ù this means that if the target is moving faster than 80m/s, you will suffer damage degradation. Of course, most BC rats do move faster than that: let's say twice as fast. The easiest way to counteract this is to bump up that size ratio by applying a whole slew of target painters that increase their signature radii. If we can paint them to a 540m radius, we now have a size ratio of 2:1, which then combines with the speed ratio of 1:2 to give us a final multiplier of 1+ ù the most we can ever hope for. You are basically using that signature increase to effectively reduce their speed, much like how painters can be used to effectively reduce the transversal of ships when you shoot at them with turret weapons. Of course, in terms of the actual maths, that's not really what happens, but the effect is exactly the same, and you can use your overview to gauge the usefulness of your painters. "Hmmà that target is moving at 100m/s, which is faster than my missiles can handle, but if I paint him, it will be as if he moved at 75m/s, which they will handle just fine." ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.04.23 16:15:00 - [25] Passive tanks in both pve and pvp only truly work on ships whose damage is mostly drone based. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Millie Clode Amarr Insert Cool Name Here	Posted - 2011.04.23 17:11:00 - [26] Edited by: Millie Clode on 23/04/2011 17:13:54 [Scorpion Navy Issue, Bad idea number 1] Shield Power Relay II Shield Power Relay II Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Pith A-Type Photon Scattering Field Pith A-Type Heat Dissipation Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender Caldari Navy Large Shield Extender Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Devastator Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Devastator Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Devastator Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Devastator Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Devastator Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Devastator Cruise Missile Drone Link Augmentor I Large Core Defence Field Purger II Large Core Defence Field Purger II Large Core Defence Field Purger II Warrior II x5 Hammerhead II x5 on max skills, that's a resist line of 85-87-81-84, tank of 700 and just shy of 200k EHP using uniform damage distribution, cap stable when not being neuted, 639 paper DPS. giggles ---------- Who, me?
Von Kroll Caldari Kroll's Legion	Posted - 2011.04.23 18:10:00 - [27] Originally by: Tippia You are basically using that signature increase to effectively reduce their speed, much like how painters can be used to effectively reduce the transversal of ships when you shoot at them with turret weapons. Of course, in terms of the actual maths, that's not really what happens, but the effect is exactly the same, and you can use your overview to gauge the usefulness of your painters. I'm gonna have to get back into the missile damage formula to see the mechanics of this I guess. I always thought sig and speed operated independently--be good to learn something...
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.04.23 18:33:00 - [28] Originally by: Von Kroll I'm gonna have to get back into the missile damage formula to see the mechanics of this I guess. I always thought sig and speed operated independently--be good to learn something... The important bit here is the movement component. In particular, note how the speed and the size components are multiplied together, which means that any mismatch in the expvel:size ratio can be counteracted by a good sigrad:exprad ratio (and vice versa). Since we're assuming that we've bloated the target's sig radius enough to make the size component ≥1, the threshold part of the formula doesn't particularly matter any more ù the threshold is at its max (1). Now all that's left is the movement component, and if the size and speed components combine to produce a product that is ≥1, the precision exponent no longer matters either ù it will still produce a result that is ≥1, and we still have full damage. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
ELECTR0FREAK Eye of God United Front Alliance	Posted - 2011.04.25 04:44:00 - [29] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 25/04/2011 04:44:41 Originally by: Tippia Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK Very incorrect. Passive tanks are amazing for PVE. No, he's quite correct. Passive tanks are massively inefficient for the amount of space they take up, which means they'll inevitably encroach on your damage output. Quote: not every passive setup has these limitations. All passive setups use lowslots that are better put to use for more damage. No, you're quite incorrect. Passive tank a drone ship. Doesn't matter what you do with your low slots, since there's no low-slot drone damage mod. That's why I said "I wouldn't suggest using the passive tank on the Navy Scorpion because of the limits it'll place on missile DPS, but not every passive setup has these limitations." Yes, there are active setups that will tank more and DPS more, but a well-fit and well-skilled passive sentry drone ship will easily tank any level 4 mission with over 500 drone DPS. That's worth more than the equivalent in missile DPS because of instant damage, instant target switching, no reload times, no DPS downtime during jamming / damping, potentially much less "overkill" damage wasted on killing blows (unless you stagger your launchers) and added perks such as no ammunition costs / limits, very fast clearing of frigates / elite tacklers with light drones, and not having to keep track of NPC damage or count salvos. I'm not trying to talk anyone out of using missile ships here. I used to be a big missile user myself; hell, I'm the guy who figured out CCP's new missile damage formula back in 2005 when they were initially reworked. A missile pilot with an active tanked, DPS-focused setup in an expensive ship with expensive mods who is paying close attention to his mission can clear a Level 4 faster than a drone ship. I just can do the same in just a little more time while whoring the S&M forum. ;) Lastly, it's well-known that passive-tanked Ishtars (like mine) are one of the few ships capable of soloing Level 5 missions. A Nighthawk can do it too, but it's got a bigger signature radius (particularly if you can put RF Shield Extenders on the Ishtar) and can suffer in DPS when the rats use Defender missiles. I'll break it off here before I sound any more like a salesman. But when I made the statement "Passive tanks are amazing for PVE" I wasn't talking out of my ass. Discoverer of the Original Missile Damage Formula
Khory Thunderstar The Single Scam	Posted - 2011.04.25 14:16:00 - [30] Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK Obviously the Ishtar setup I use does best against Guristas or Serpentis, Do you mind sharing that Ishtar setup? That got me curious...



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