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Imajitaaltofanalt ofanalt	Posted - 2011.04.23 02:09:00 - [1] Edited by: Imajitaaltofanalt ofanalt on 23/04/2011 02:10:32 Welcome to Supers Online. CCP, good job on buffing supers to make them used more. Fighter bombers are an great idea, but you're 'lets not make them the swiss army knife of eve' failed. At this very moment, supers are used for pos bashing, station bashing, fleet busting, hot drops, and capital killing. No cap fleet in eve wants to fight 8 titans and 20 super carriers. No more are the massive capital battles of Eve, why build 16 dreads when you could build 1 super carrier with the same minerals and put out tons of DPS, and have 6M+ HP on-top of that. Lets look at it in a different form, one Nyx costs ~20b. One Moros is around ~1.2b (Source Vale of Silent). Now I'm no EFT warrior, but for raw numbers it works out well. One Nyx with 20 fighter bombers 8,000 DPS (All skills at 5). One Moros (no drones, ion blasters, all skills at 5) 3885 DPS. Nyx surpasses the HP of the Moros, eliminating the ability for alpha from a dread fleet (Old tactic). For the cost of one Nyx, you can get ~16 Moros. You have to find 16 pilots to fly them, form them up, fuel them, cyno them and call targets. With blasters they put out much more DPS (Most Moros use rails), but cost effectively it's easier for one corp in an alliance to form up one Nyx. As most corporations in Null-sec have more then one super carrier, the need and viability for capital fleets are now obsolete. The now (I.M.O. Over use) of supers in the current role make smaller alliances struggle against already impossible odds of other larger alliances. CCP you are trying to figure out how to make Null-sec less dependent on huge coalitions, this seems counter productive as these alliances have to band with other alliances just to survive. No one wants to form caps up anymore. Normal capitals have been made obsolete, and what should you do about them? Remove the titans DDD, add a revised sig-radius based AOE, or allow it instead to fit siege module. (I imagine the HP buff was to combat the titans new focused DDD, Also adjust bonus' to reflect) Remove the HP buff to Supers, a SLIGHT HP buff maybe kept. (Added as my guess to combat titan DDD) Allow fighter bombers to be used by all carriers. Remove fighter V requirement for fighter bombers. Something MUST be done to curve this trend. I played for the capitals of Eve slugging it out in space... not supers almost instantly popping capitals. ;TLDR; Supers are over used, making regular capitals obsolete with the 10m hp and ~8k dps
Agent MoneyCollector	Posted - 2011.04.23 02:18:00 - [2] cry more nc, or use your own.
Ernest Borgnine	Posted - 2011.04.23 02:20:00 - [3] I didn't realise members of State War Academy cared so much about super caps. Oh wait, maybe you're posting on an alt, I wonder why you would want to do that. Could be you're a guy who's a member of a coalition with a very high number of supercaps that was the first to start smacking when you had numerical advantage. Maybe you've lost that advantage and now sit in General Discussion crying like a baby.
mkd0815 Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.04.23 02:20:00 - [4] as long as you did outblob any other fleets around with you SC fleets all was fine. now you whine .. get back to empire where you belong
K Wallet	Posted - 2011.04.23 02:21:00 - [5] NC member crying to ccp for help when they are losing ? Well i never
Calathea Sata State War Academy	Posted - 2011.04.23 02:24:00 - [6] A legit complain. I likeÖ this thread. It explains everything! The unified field theory of New Eden
Salastil Gallente ElitistOps Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.04.23 02:25:00 - [7] Edited by: Salastil on 23/04/2011 02:25:46 Carriers are still worthwhile but Dreadnoughts could use some tweaking. A bigger increase in damage from the siege module for instance. Perhaps a script to increase damage against structures and one for anti capital ganks that has something to do with tracking. Simultaneous nerfs and buffs to the module to make it more of a glass cannon structure or capital gank ship that it has become over the years.
Grimpak Gallente The Whitehound Corporation Frontline Assembly Point	Posted - 2011.04.23 02:28:00 - [8] Originally by: Calathea Sata A legit complain. I likeÖ this thread. while legit, this thread reeks of NC complaining about being blobbed (lol). that in itself makes th ethread lose legitimacy. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Imajitaaltofanalt ofanalt	Posted - 2011.04.23 02:33:00 - [9] Nothing to do with the NC and the war that it is involved it. Perhaps I'm a member of a small corporation that is 'trying' to kill a tower or two and keep getting dropped by 3 or 4 supers...
Salastil Gallente ElitistOps Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.04.23 03:01:00 - [10] Originally by: Imajitaaltofanalt ofanalt Nothing to do with the NC and the war that it is involved it. Perhaps I'm a member of a small corporation that is 'trying' to kill a tower or two and keep getting dropped by 3 or 4 supers... Then you snitch them out to larger fish like Pandemic Legion who kill them pro bono. If can assure a larger group that they can snag the super capitals you're guaranteed to get the problem resolved.

Hori To Masuat'aa Matari	Posted - 2011.04.23 03:05:00 - [11] Originally by: Salastil Originally by: Imajitaaltofanalt ofanalt Nothing to do with the NC and the war that it is involved it. Perhaps I'm a member of a small corporation that is 'trying' to kill a tower or two and keep getting dropped by 3 or 4 supers... Then you snitch them out to larger fish like Pandemic Legion who kill them pro bono. If can assure a larger group that they can snag the super capitals you're guaranteed to get the problem resolved. wouldn't this be a great way to set a trap for PL supercaps?
CrestoftheStars Caldari Recreation Of The World	Posted - 2011.04.23 04:58:00 - [12] this was already a big problem with just normal cap ships, which totally destroyed the reason to have none cap ships, now its just the step that super cap absolete cap ships, next ccp will make DOOM CAP SHIPS and then SUPER DOOM CAP ships and in 2 years it will be "SYPER DOOPER UBER MULTI CAP SHIP OFF AWESOME GM POWER OFF 'WE DIDNT THINK IT WOULD HURT THE GAME TO HAVE 1 SHIP THAT COULD KILL 2000 PLAYERS IN ONE BLAST'" ship. which basicly will be able to destroy 100 super caps at the same time 1v100 ^^ bascily what i am saying is that its getting rediculess. from the good old times, before t2, their where a VERY fine balance that all ships fitted for it could kill/disable ANY other ship when using the correct counters. all ships have their good use, frigates could be a REAL threat to Bs's and we saw this tactic used ALOT by having 2-3 frigates per bs you could easily lock it down and kill it, with some help from some cruisers bs's without support from smaller ships where ****ed on their own. (yes back then cruisers could actually destroy bs's quite effectively, they still can t2 vs t1bs, but its alot harder with all the dmg nerfs hp boost etc.) with capital ships the whole balance was totally changed, there is no 1 ship or 2-3 ships that stands a chance vs. 1 capital ship. and now with super caps its even worse, they actually do to cap ships what cap ships did to normal ships, making normal ship even less usefull in these encounters. i like the idea there are their. its a nice adding to the battlefield but without some way off controlling how many can be on each side at a fleet battle you get the rediculess situation where 30 titans, 100super carriers just overtakes the entire battlefield and anything NOT a super cap ship is just there for the sight off seeing the battle. we need to have some HARD counters to eliminate the super capitalsm and to some extend capital ships, effectiveness on a battle field. to make sure that smaller ships will be the MAIN and most importent ships on the field. how this should be done to make it balanced without making the isk a wasted i dont know, but ccp should figure it out. its way overdue ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded
Meridith Akesia Stimulus	Posted - 2011.04.23 06:53:00 - [13] Originally by: CrestoftheStars this was already a big problem with just normal cap ships, which totally destroyed the reason to have none cap ships, now its just the step that super cap absolete cap ships, next ccp will make DOOM CAP SHIPS and then SUPER DOOM CAP ships and in 2 years it will be "SYPER DOOPER UBER MULTI CAP SHIP OFF AWESOME GM POWER OFF 'WE DIDNT THINK IT WOULD HURT THE GAME TO HAVE 1 SHIP THAT COULD KILL 2000 PLAYERS IN ONE BLAST'" ship. which basicly will be able to destroy 100 super caps at the same time 1v100 ^^ bascily what i am saying is that its getting rediculess. from the good old times, before t2, their where a VERY fine balance that all ships fitted for it could kill/disable ANY other ship when using the correct counters. all ships have their good use, frigates could be a REAL threat to Bs's and we saw this tactic used ALOT by having 2-3 frigates per bs you could easily lock it down and kill it, with some help from some cruisers bs's without support from smaller ships where ****ed on their own. (yes back then cruisers could actually destroy bs's quite effectively, they still can t2 vs t1bs, but its alot harder with all the dmg nerfs hp boost etc.) with capital ships the whole balance was totally changed, there is no 1 ship or 2-3 ships that stands a chance vs. 1 capital ship. and now with super caps its even worse, they actually do to cap ships what cap ships did to normal ships, making normal ship even less usefull in these encounters. i like the idea there are their. its a nice adding to the battlefield but without some way off controlling how many can be on each side at a fleet battle you get the rediculess situation where 30 titans, 100super carriers just overtakes the entire battlefield and anything NOT a super cap ship is just there for the sight off seeing the battle. we need to have some HARD counters to eliminate the super capitalsm and to some extend capital ships, effectiveness on a battle field. to make sure that smaller ships will be the MAIN and most importent ships on the field. how this should be done to make it balanced without making the isk a wasted i dont know, but ccp should figure it out. its way overdue u slightly mad?
Jack Tronic	Posted - 2011.04.23 07:21:00 - [14] Edited by: Jack Tronic on 23/04/2011 07:22:17 Edited by: Jack Tronic on 23/04/2011 07:21:46 Originally by: CrestoftheStars we need to have some HARD counters to eliminate the super capitalsm and to some extend capital ships, effectiveness on a battle field. to make sure that smaller ships will be the MAIN and most importent ships on the field. What I think might be neat is a super cap jumping to a cyno causes a smartbomb style AOE effect for a decent range ~ 50km that damages everything(other supers that jump with it, damage amount should multiply with ship size). So when you jump 100 at a time LOL, you just nuked your own support fleet!
Ioci Gallente Morrigna Order	Posted - 2011.04.23 07:31:00 - [15] Super carriers are fine, Bombers haven't been adjusted (aka. nerfed) yet. They will, we all know it and PL will be here crying from thier logged out coffins. Futures on cry moar submitted.
bartos100 Killer Koalas R.A.G.E	Posted - 2011.04.23 08:41:00 - [16] i think fighter-bombers should be more fragile as it is it takes a big support fleet too long to even kill 1 let alone the 25 a SC can launch if you make FB die rather easy to a support-fleet a SC becomes less of a problem if it does not have support and pls limit the amount of normal drones in SC and perhaps carriers atm any SC pilot has a few hunderd smal/medium drones that they can use against support :(
Astroka	Posted - 2011.04.23 08:45:00 - [17] Originally by: Jack Tronic Edited by: Jack Tronic on 23/04/2011 07:22:17 Edited by: Jack Tronic on 23/04/2011 07:21:46 Originally by: CrestoftheStars we need to have some HARD counters to eliminate the super capitalsm and to some extend capital ships, effectiveness on a battle field. to make sure that smaller ships will be the MAIN and most importent ships on the field. What I think might be neat is a super cap jumping to a cyno causes a smartbomb style AOE effect for a decent range ~ 50km that damages everything(other supers that jump with it, damage amount should multiply with ship size). So when you jump 100 at a time LOL, you just nuked your own support fleet! All that would do is make people warp in the cyno ship 50+km from the rest of the fleet. ====================================== "Rawr" means "I love you" in dinosaur! ======================================
Grath Telkin Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.04.23 08:57:00 - [18] Originally by: Imajitaaltofanalt ofanalt No cap fleet in eve wants to fight 8 titans and 20 super carriers. What Mine sure as hell does
El'Niaga Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2011.04.23 09:05:00 - [19] Originally by: Imajitaaltofanalt ofanalt Edited by: Imajitaaltofanalt ofanalt on 23/04/2011 02:10:32 No one wants to form caps up anymore. Normal capitals have been made obsolete, and what should you do about them? Remove the titans DDD, add a revised sig-radius based AOE, or allow it instead to fit siege module. (I imagine the HP buff was to combat the titans new focused DDD, Also adjust bonus' to reflect) Remove the HP buff to Supers, a SLIGHT HP buff maybe kept. (Added as my guess to combat titan DDD) Allow fighter bombers to be used by all carriers. Remove fighter V requirement for fighter bombers. Something MUST be done to curve this trend. I played for the capitals of Eve slugging it out in space... not supers almost instantly popping capitals. ;TLDR; Supers are over used, making regular capitals obsolete with the 10m hp and ~8k dps The DD does not need to be removed. Possibly but only if you lower the build cost of them, I mean the supercarrier costs 16x what your carrier does, shouldn't it have a proportionate amount of extra hit points? No to fighter bombers on normal carriers. No to lowering requirements for fighter bombers. Carriers are used quite often. You see them used by Razor in Tenal to support their subcaps and in Cobalt Edge by Intrepid Crossing for the same purpose. What the game is missing is an anti-supercarrier ship like a superdreadnought or possible some sort of ship that throws up a defensive bubble against drones/fighters/fighter-bombers). Capital Sized EW variants that they are not immune to would be another way to go. Nerfing is never the answer, that's what led us to where we are.....you have to introduce new counters and buff other stuff not nerf.
Astroka	Posted - 2011.04.23 09:15:00 - [20] Originally by: El'Niaga Possibly but only if you lower the build cost of them, I mean the supercarrier costs 16x what your carrier does, shouldn't it have a proportionate amount of extra hit points? Stealth bombers cost 40x what a frigate does, shouldn't it have a proportionate amount of extra hit points? ====================================== "Rawr" means "I love you" in dinosaur! ======================================

Solomunio Kzenig Amarr Amarrian Veterans Guild	Posted - 2011.04.23 09:25:00 - [21] Originally by: Grath Telkin Originally by: Imajitaaltofanalt ofanalt No cap fleet in eve wants to fight 8 titans and 20 super carriers. What Mine sure as hell does Was waiting for this .
El'Niaga Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2011.04.23 09:57:00 - [22] Originally by: Astroka Originally by: El'Niaga Possibly but only if you lower the build cost of them, I mean the supercarrier costs 16x what your carrier does, shouldn't it have a proportionate amount of extra hit points? Stealth bombers cost 40x what a frigate does, shouldn't it have a proportionate amount of extra hit points? Supercarrier and Carrier are both t1, stealth bomber is t2. However I'll bite, they trade off extra hit points to have warp while cloaked ability and also to have the only area of effect weapon still in game....
Marconus Orion S.E.G.W.A.Y.	Posted - 2011.04.23 10:03:00 - [23] There there... Dry those eyes and put your complaint in this thread and stop ****ting up the rest of the forum please.
ZenSun	Posted - 2011.04.23 11:22:00 - [24] knew I should of waited to sell my nyx toon, woop!
Ten Bulls Minmatar	Posted - 2011.04.23 11:46:00 - [25] (imagine reading these forms 3 months after eve came out) Welcome to Battleships Online. CCP, good job on buffing Battleships to make them used more. Battleships are an great idea, but you're 'lets not make them the swiss army knife of eve' failed. At this very moment, Battleships are used for pos bashing, station bashing, fleet busting, and cruiser killing. No cruiser fleet in eve wants to fight 8 guardians and 20 battleships. No more are the massive battles of Eve, why build 16 cruisers when you could build 1 battleship with the same minerals and put out tons of DPS, and have (x)k+ HP on-top of that. Lets look at it in a different form, one Battleship costs ~100M. One cruiser is around ~6M (Source Vale of Silent). Now I'm no EFT warrior, but for raw numbers it works out well. One battleship with drones puts out 1,000 DPS (All skills at 5). One cruiser (no drones, things going bang, all skills at 5) 400 DPS. Battleship surpasses the HP of the Cruiser, eliminating the ability for alpha from a cruiser fleet (Old tactic). For the cost of one Battleship, you can get ~16 cruisers. You have to find 16 pilots to fly them, form them up, fuel them, fly them and call targets. With bangy things they put out much more DPS (Most Battleships use saucepans), but cost effectively it's easier for one corp in an alliance to form up one Battleship. As most corporations in Null-sec have more then one battleship, the need and viability for cruiser fleets are now obsolete. The now (I.M.O. Over use) of battleships in the current role make smaller alliances struggle against already impossible odds of other larger alliances. CCP you are trying to figure out how to make Null-sec less dependent on huge coalitions, this seems counter productive as these alliances have to band with other alliances just to survive. No one wants to form caps up anymore. Normal capitals have been made obsolete, and what should you do about them? (IDEA goes here) Something MUST be done to curve this trend. I played for the cruisers of Eve slugging it out in space... not battleships almost instantly popping cruisers. ;TLDR; Battleships are over used, making regular cruisers obsolete with the 100k hp and ~1k dps
Marko Riva	Posted - 2011.04.23 11:58:00 - [26] Edited by: Marko Riva on 23/04/2011 12:01:55 It's like this: - SC's are skill intensive and require alts (for holding purposes) so people keep more accounts and people will trade more SC pilots because of it. That's win for CCP - SC's are difficult to build requiring lots of effort in the form of securing space and all that, which requires people having active accounts. That's win for CCP - SC's are expensive so people either grind for it (more accounts needed) or simply sell plex, and big fights with lots of SC losses mean lots of isk lost that needs to be replaced. That's win for CCP Ofcourse this goes for all ships (per above poster who compared it to BS's early in the game) but SC's are completely out of whack performance wise, no one sane would come up with the current SC iteration... there's no logic behind it, no one is THIS stupid. Unless someone went "how about we make SC's super overpowered and kept them expensive, so everyone would want to get one and we'd make tons of more $ because of it", it really is the only logical explanation because they're not balanced in any sort of way. --- I'm rebuilding my EVE tutorials, if you have requests or ideas feel free to tell me.
Valari Nala Zena Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2011.04.23 12:05:00 - [27] If your in NC, whelping subcaps doesn't mean anything, you want a real sov war, supers is what it's eventually all about. Rest is just cannon fodder.
Maudad Amarr	Posted - 2011.04.23 12:10:00 - [28] The only capital ships badly broken are Dreads, and this could mostly be fixed with a reduced siege cycle so theyre not sat waiting to die for so long, as it stands they are only good for shooting POS's
Joss56 Gallente Unleashed' Fury	Posted - 2011.04.23 12:46:00 - [29] Seems the largest portion of players are in high sec getting grief for cruisers/bc's some faction fitted bs's so they don't/can't use caps/supers. They are not concerned. ________________________________________________ "You do realise you live on a globe, right? And that there places outside the USA/UK?"
Rhaegor Stormborn H A V O C Cascade Imminent	Posted - 2011.04.23 13:48:00 - [30] Just wanted to point out that a Nyx is not 20B, but more like 12B.



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