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NoNah	Posted - 2011.05.05 20:06:00 - [31] Originally by: Cambarus TBH I say this isn't really an issue. Marauders are what, 600mil to the faction BSs 800-1b? I'd imagine the price of faction BSs would drop a bit if marauders got un-nerfed, but then IMO more faction/t2 ships in pvp is a good thing not a bad thing. It makes the game a bit more interesting to see more variety, and with their limited mobility and high cost/training time, I don't really see them being too overused. Like I said I won't argue wether it's the way to go or not, mainly because I want to revamp a whole lot regarding faction ships, not their internal balance, but how they're aquired. Mmh... no ship bpcs from LP-stores... Parrots, commence! Postcount: 777899
Wardeneo Minmatar	Posted - 2011.05.06 21:56:00 - [32] Originally by: Dr Fighter Originally by: Pod Amarr While I agree that the marauder class needs a slight buff. The proposed changes are over the top. this. this... although i did like the 8th high slot so u can have 4 weapons, 2 tractor, 2 salvagers... n i think adding a salvaging bonus would be good, but thats as far as id take it... . - Wardeneo - - Elite Forum Ninja -
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.07 00:50:00 - [33] Originally by: NoNah Like I said I won't argue wether it's the way to go or not, mainly because I want to revamp a whole lot regarding faction ships, not their internal balance, but how they're aquired. Mmh... no ship bpcs from LP-stores... TBH I think there should be a slight INCREASE in the number of faction ships running around. The mach might need some looking at because of its absurd mobility but aside from that Faction BSs/marauders are not ships that can get out of a fight easily, and given their already high costs and the fact that everyone wants to get on their KMs, seeing them more often in pvp isn't really a bad thing.
Straight Edged	Posted - 2011.05.07 01:56:00 - [34] 1 vargur **s machariel in terms of isk/hour 2 vargurs s mach+noctis in terms of isk/hour 3 vargurs s 2 mach+noctis in terms of isk/hour X vargurs **s X-1 + noctis in terms of isk/hour
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.07 04:45:00 - [35] Originally by: Straight Edged 1 vargur **s machariel in terms of isk/hour 2 vargurs s mach+noctis in terms of isk/hour 3 vargurs s 2 mach+noctis in terms of isk/hour X vargurs **s X-1 + noctis in terms of isk/hour Wat.
Thleffs Gallente	Posted - 2011.05.07 08:07:00 - [36] Just fix the sensor strength first.
Herrring Amarr National Quality Breaker	Posted - 2011.05.07 08:14:00 - [37] Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: Straight Edged 1 vargur **s machariel in terms of isk/hour 2 vargurs s mach+noctis in terms of isk/hour 3 vargurs s 2 mach+noctis in terms of isk/hour X vargurs **s X-1 + noctis in terms of isk/hour Wat. While I think this could true if you can run the vargurs at full efficiency, I don't see how its possible to multi-box 2+ vargurs at 100% potential without going insane.
Straight Edged	Posted - 2011.05.07 08:23:00 - [38] Quote: 1 vargur **s machariel in terms of isk/hour 2 vargurs s mach+noctis in terms of isk/hour 3 vargurs s 2 mach+noctis in terms of isk/hour X vargurs s X-1 + noctis in terms of isk/hour And dont even talk about "i-can-fit-4-ogre's-on-a-machariel-and-get-insane-dps" machariel with hobgoblins **s machariel with 4 ogres/sentries in isk/hour
Jacob Holland Gallente Weyland-Vulcan Industries Brotherhood Of The Sick and Twisted	Posted - 2011.05.07 08:48:00 - [39] Edited by: Jacob Holland on 07/05/2011 08:51:59 Originally by: Straight Edged 1 vargur **s machariel in terms of isk/hour 2 vargurs s mach+noctis in terms of isk/hour 3 vargurs s 2 mach+noctis in terms of isk/hour X vargurs s X-1 + noctis in terms of isk/hour Not sure about that TBH... A machariel (11.7 ACs + 4 Sentries) will kill a mission significantly faster than a Vargur (10 ACs + 5 Medium Scouts) and has the advantage in mobility. Salvaging just odd BS wrecks as you go isn't going to, unless you're very lucky with the the loot/salvage, fill the gap and the longer you spend salvaging the more the Mach's speed and damage advantage begins to tell. When you add the Noctis into the mix then not only do you have to consider the volumetric increase in available loot/salvage but also the fact that some cruiser loot is significantly more valuable than its BS equivalent (Arbalest Heavy launcher - 10 mil, Arbalest Cruise launcher 200k)... While two Vargurs will beat a Mach and a Noctis (20 ACs + 10 Medium Scouts vs 11.7 ACs + 4 Sentries) there comes a point (around 5 ships) where a Mach fleet with Noctis support overtakes the Vargurs again. Edit: The Sentry loadout is worth considering. Both the Vargur and the Mach can load a flight of lights in addition to the primary drone loadouts listed and it is therefore quite viable to use lights where appropriate and still apply maximum DPS for as long as possible with the heavier drones. -- Originally by:** cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Straight Edged	Posted - 2011.05.07 11:46:00 - [40] Edited by: Straight Edged on 07/05/2011 11:46:47 In reality , you can only choose one. You want mobility. Or you want sentries. You cant choose both. Machariel is a ship which does only 450+ dps at 60.5km. It needs to move in to 10-25km. However, doing this will leave sentries behind in 30-60km. Its not viable. Mission completion time will be sacrificed. Ogre's is even more horrible. For example, "the score" room, with approximately 2 BC, 10 cruisers, 2 frigs, 4 battleships. By the time machariel cleared the room, the ogre barely killed one battleship. Yes. One. A simple EHP to dps calculation points out ogre's DPS is 1/32 of the gun. which is less then 30 dps. EFT dps =/= applied dps. Thats why i said. its silly to bring sentries with a machariel. People count DPS at optimal plus 4 ogre's and 1 hammerhead thinking its the best idea in the world. In reality, only hobgoblins and hammerheads are good in the mach. The vargur has a tracking bonus, which means the vargur can hug targets 25% closer then the machariel. If machariel needs to orbit cruisers at 15km, the vargur can hug at 10-12km. This directly translates into better DPS. Even worst if mach isnt using faction ammo. The vargur uses abit over half the ammo mach uses, it is only natural to spew republic ammo. Not for mach. If a mach doesnt use faction ammo, it will have less dps, less tracking, AND no tractor. So thats another isk eater for you. Spewing 15000 ISK every 3 seconds worth of ammo. As i said. machariel is for people who has not enough skills. Vargur is always the better choice for PVE.
Miriiah	Posted - 2011.05.07 11:55:00 - [41] Marauders need 60km tractor range. Kronos needs 125m3 drone bandwitdh and 150m3 dronebay. (and railguns obviously needs to be fixed) Golem is decent, if anything slightly better torp range Vargur, I think it's damage output is pretty good, slight damage buff or speed buff Paladin... Problem with Sansha/Bloodraider rats is the TD spam, making pulse fits useless and gives tachs problems hitting stuff when it gets too close, slight PG buff possibly
Songbird Gallente T.I.E. Inc.	Posted - 2011.05.07 14:52:00 - [42]
Straight Edged	Posted - 2011.05.07 15:54:00 - [43] Edited by: Straight Edged on 07/05/2011 16:00:46 Quote: Actually machariel using t1 ammo has more dps than a vargur using faction ammo, so while I'm spending 700 isk every 3 seconds, the vargur would be spending ... well I guess it depends if you can even find faction ammo at your mission hub, but lets say 10x, and still hitting for less. That's mostly because mach has higher natural DPS (I think someone quoted 11.7 gun vs the varg's 10) but also because while most vargurs only mount 3 damage mods the mach mounts 4. Vargur fits 4 damage mods. its the usual setup. - The vargur has x2-x2.5 potential tracking then the machariel. Elite cruisers can NEVER out-orbit vargur. - The vargur also has 4-5 more falloff and 0.3 more optimal then the vargur potentially. This is because; - The vargur can use a falloff rig on top of T2 collision accelerator rig - The vargur has tractor and salvagers - If both uses republic fleet ammo, vargur has 999 dps vs machs 1093 dps but mach dps drops to 950 without faction ammo. - As i said. a machariel with hobgoblins completes mission faster then machariel with ogre's, sentries, or wateva thimanajig. Contrary to believe, shooting frigs with Big guns is a loss of dps, waste of ammo, and reduce mission completion time - To show how useless Ogre and sentries is, i tested it in "The score" . The second room has all kinds of ships (4 BS, 10 cruisers, 2 BC, some frigs). An ogre can only kill ONE Battleship while my guns cleared the room. It saved me 5 shots. (15 seconds) A hammerhead can kill both frigs, both BC's and a cruiser. It saved me on average 9.5 shots. (30 seconds) A sentry is able to kill a battleship and two battlecruisers. Trying to shoot cruisers was probably the stupidest thing ive ever tried. This saved me on average 9 shots (27 seconds). HOWEVER. because of sentries, i have to suffer an additional 8 second allign time . And X second of traveling time. Without sentries, the final ship death, and im alligned and in warp. Lets say i left my sentries at 30km. 2 second per "input" + 8 second allign time + 15 second traveling time (remember, mach has to accelerate). Thats 25 seconds + 27 seconds, one of the worst! of course it depends TLDR: Stick to hobgoblins and hammers and valks. you wont regret it. Of course, unless you dislike efficient mission running. [Vargur, Generic Mission Runner A] Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Optimal Range Federation Navy Tracking Computer Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field Pith B-Type Photon Scattering Field Gist X-Type 100MN Afterburner [empty high slot] [empty high slot] [empty high slot] 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L Large Projectile Collision Accelerator II Large Projectile Ambit Extension I
Songbird Gallente T.I.E. Inc.	Posted - 2011.05.07 18:54:00 - [44] Originally by: Straight Edged - If both uses republic fleet ammo, vargur has 999 dps vs machs 1093 dps but mach dps drops to 950 without faction ammo. Actually if you wanna raise your DPS through a rig a burst aerator is the way to go -gives you 25 more dps or so. I have to admit though if you decide to use 4 damage mods + faction ammo for the vargur vs non faction ammo for the machariel the vargur will do more dps. As far as how effective killing frigs with main guns is - I can say this - I kill 10 frigs for 15-20 seconds with the main guns( half of the guns per frig) . I'd rather do it this way than wait for the drones to approach, go through shield and armor - which elite frigs usually succeed in repairing at least once, all the while the little bastards are webbing me, ecm-ing and dampening me and generally being a nuisance. As for heavy/sentry drones effectiveness - you can't possibly believe 5 mediums would do better than 4 heavies/sentry. Elite cruisers... I've never had any trouble killing them - other than the obvious- they usually use some kind of EW: serpentis ones for example do dampening so I have to be very close to be able to even target them. I close in to 1 km - they start running away from me in straight line - thus 0 transversal velocity - I hit them like a sledgehammer( it's why I have a MWD on my ship) Guristas don't even come closer than 20km, but they do use jamming , these are the ones I like to sick wasps on , Angels come straight line towards you... they never do survive to approach to orbiting range - I usually deploy 4 bouncers, sit in the center and have every angel ship come at me - I feel like a spider in the center of his net just catching the fat flies... not sure why exactly are you bringing the frigs and cruisers into the discussion though - these are the two real advantages of AC's wielding ships - they shoot fast - they mow through the smaller ships like a John Deere lawn mower. Anyway - to each his own - if you feel the vargur is the ship for you - more power :)
stoicfaux Gallente	Posted - 2011.05.07 20:12:00 - [45] Originally by: Songbird Actually if you wanna raise your DPS through a rig a burst aerator is the way to go -gives you 25 more dps or so. Increased volley damage might be worth more than increased rate of fire. The ACs have a pretty low rate of fire so even a single saved volley could save you, let's see... * 800mm w/o burst aerator: 3.15485s duration * 800mm with burst aerator: 2.96288s duration That's a difference of .19197 seconds. So if using the collision accelerator saves you a single volley, the burst aerator needs to fire 15.4 volleys to make up the DPS loss. Confusing the issue is the lag between when a gun (or missile) cycle ends and when you can actually get them to fire again. A damage rig might be a better deal if lag delays you a few seconds between targets. With a couple of 5% damage implants, we're looking at: 3568 volley damage for the collision accelerator, and 3444 volley damage for the burst aerator. That's a 3.6% damage increase in volleys. I'm thinking you would need to be completely anal retentive to figure out if a collision accelerator is better than a burst aerator when looking at NPC EHP. Granted, I'm looking at program I wrote that determines how many shots you need to kill the NPCs in a mission in order to determine which missile rigs are best on a Tengu (rate of fire, flares, and/or rigors) since raw DPS and even VTK (volleys to kill) can be a crude metric in isolation, but that's not the point. ----- "Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you! -- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
Songbird Gallente T.I.E. Inc.	Posted - 2011.05.07 22:51:00 - [46] Originally by: stoicfaux I'm thinking you would need to be completely anal retentive to figure out if a collision accelerator is better than a burst aerator when looking at NPC EHP. Just looking at EFT you can easily see burst aerator is better - that's paper damage of course. For small ships - frigs die in 1/2 shot with or without rig - the faster you're able to cycle the faster you'd kill em all. Cruisers - unless you're able to consistently 1 shot them you'd still be using 2 shots which would be overkill - again faster cycling is better. Unless there's a ship which you can 1 shot with 3568 damage and 2 shot with 3444 damage, speed rig sounds better for smaller targets - you'd be over killing anyway . Still in the case of a BS 10 shots would result in 1200 or so damage more with the accelerator rig while the burst rig will save you about 1.9 seconds... it all comes to personal preference I think. me personally I have ROF rig even on my tengu
Straight Edged	Posted - 2011.05.07 23:06:00 - [47] Quote: As for heavy/sentry drones effectiveness - you can't possibly believe 5 mediums would do better than 4 heavies/sentry. Try it yourself. It was a very easy decision for me, as i said so in my test when i was using it. In term of mission completion time, meds would save the most time. sentries are one of the worst. Drone dps does not translate into faster completion times. There are many other factors in play. Most of the time, their effective dps is less then 30. Quote: .....damage rig.. This is false. You dont see that turrets arent missiles. Turrets damage is luck based. Even if you have a 50% chance to 2-hit cruisers (2K volley, cruisers=4K HP), you will find you have 50% chance to 2-hit 25%-30% chance to 3-hit and a 12.5%-15% chance to 4-hit and a 3% chance to 1 hit. Since turret is luck based, a 6% increase in ROF is much much better then a 3% increase in alpha. Afterall, its basically just a 3% chance to increase "number-of-hits-to-kill", while 6% rofs lets you kill stuff faster EVERY TIME (by 6%) Now tengu is a different ballgame altogether. A 2.5K alpha and a 2.7K alpha tengu is a different beast altogether. The 2.7K alpha tengu could clear even a rat heavy mission like buzz kill faster then a golem. But a 2.5K alpha tengu would finish it 4-5 minutes slower. In missile's case, every reduction in hit-to-kill is a guaranteed thing. Because damage is constant. Unlike turrets
Swynet	Posted - 2011.05.08 09:51:00 - [48] Originally by: Liang Nuren - Massively increase sensor strength (uh, because of the new jamming... yeah that's it) /agree Originally by: Liang Nuren - Greatly improve capacitor (uh, because of neuting in wormholes and blood raiders... yeah that's it) Maybe a good boost to NOS on marauders instead of under-rated-noctis bonus? Originally by: Liang Nuren - Increase grid to allow for reasonable battleship utility mods (for low sec incursions... really!) /agree Another weapon slot - faction ships can spit out the same and + dps without a lot of effort Drone bay up to 150m3 with 125Mb/s bandwich -once again the geddon is better than the Kronos in this mater...about it's dps...toss give to the Kronos 2sup gun slots so they can be competitive with all other marauders
Rip Marley Minmatar Hard Rock Mining Co. The Jagged Alliance	Posted - 2011.05.10 06:54:00 - [49] I am seeing a lot of people here that apparently don't fly a Mach. Here's the facts. The Vargur has only two advantages over a Mach. It has a superior tank (not counting Mach speed tanking) and it has the tractor/salvager. The Machariel will have more range due to being able to fit 3 tracking enhancers. It will do far more damage due to having a fourth gyro, higher effective gun count, more falloff and more drone bay. It is also faster, if it needs to close the range to apply DPS. Again, if your Mach can tank it....the Mach will kill it faster than any equal Vargur fit.
Crabs Collector	Posted - 2011.05.10 09:11:00 - [50] Maybe the mach needs a nerf then instead of boosting marauders ;) Anyway, the sensor strength on marauders is rather silly, they should indeed remove it. It should actually be stronger than other ships concidering its a mission boat and the recent jamming changes.
VIP Ares Minmatar BALKAN EXPRESS HUN Reloaded	Posted - 2011.05.10 10:09:00 - [51] I'd like this: Marauders in general; -Increase range anbd speed of tractor beam (similar to noctis) -Increase chances of retreiving salvage (5% per marauder level?) -8th slot, for a 2/2 setup of tractors and salvagers.
Swynet	Posted - 2011.05.10 14:52:00 - [52] Originally by: Crabs Collector Maybe the mach needs a nerf then instead of boosting marauders ;) Angel ships don't need nerfs, or maybe just the Dramiel and only on it's speed capacity. It's stupid to nerf something that works fine (Mach) while Marauders don't and really need some love. Nerfing the Mach will not make marauders become better, their issues will still be there.
Steinsdottir Pollard	Posted - 2011.05.10 14:54:00 - [53] What needs to change is: The kronos should be a dominix. And the Sin should be a megathron.
Swynet	Posted - 2011.05.10 15:09:00 - [54] Originally by: Steinsdottir Pollard What needs to change is: The kronos should be a dominix. And the Sin should be a megathron. Somehow I could almost agree with you
Crabs Collector	Posted - 2011.05.10 20:37:00 - [55] Originally by: Swynet Edited by: Swynet on 10/05/2011 15:01:15 Originally by: Crabs Collector Maybe the mach needs a nerf then instead of boosting marauders ;) Angel ships don't need nerfs, or maybe just the Dramiel and only on it's speed capacity. It's stupid to nerf something that works fine (Mach) while Marauders don't and really need some love. Nerfing the Mach will not make marauders become better, their issues will still be there. EDIT: Instead of nerfing the Mach why not change tractor bonus for something useful? -I suppose if the Golem gets the tractor bonus changed for 7.5% bonus radius explosion/lvl every one that can fly them would not pick the mach, this is just an example The only issue of the marauders is the silly sensor strength reduction. The tractor bonus is also very useful for missioning because you can create extra income from missions without spending extra time. The problem of the machariel (for missioning) is that its way better at blitzing, wich became more profitable after the loot nerf. If i were CCP i'd make the marauders more interesting by A) deleting the sensor strength reduction B) make a special 'marauder salvager' that needs only 1 cycle to salvage a wreck (or something with the same effect).
Rashmika Clavain Gallente	Posted - 2011.05.10 21:50:00 - [56] Edited by: Rashmika Clavain on 10/05/2011 21:50:39 Optimal buff to the Kronos IS interesting. I'd prefer to kill my targets at less than 40km for the salvaging... T2 Neutrons would be something I'd like to try on a Kronos if I had that optimal increase :P That and a dronebay and bandwith buff plox.
Force Kon	Posted - 2011.05.11 04:25:00 - [57] I laugh at your comparison here "2 ships can complete a mission faster than 1". You cant compare ships strengths and weaknesses here based on 1 vs 2. The Maurder was designed for the game a long time ago so its fair to say its slightly out of date. It was designed solely for PvE so those calling for sensor strength "fixes" are just idiots. The speed of the ship is fine, if you fit an AB its got more speed than you could ever want from a BS. I dont understand at all why anyone would want an Arty ship in L4, most of the time you will be too close to hit things, also the 100% damage boost would be too much, you would alpha everything with a massive overkill. The only thing that needs to be fixed with the mauraders is high slot situation, you should be able to fit 2 tractor and 2 salvagers and salvagers.
Hiroshima Jita	Posted - 2011.05.11 04:51:00 - [58] Why do marauders have to be for PVE? Faction Battleships are great for PVP as long as you ignore their cost. Even when you don't bring ewar into the equation a faction battleship is better than a marauder by a large margin. If faction BS weren't as good as they are I would understand the angle that "We don't want solopwnmobiles."
NoNah	Posted - 2011.05.11 13:06:00 - [59] Originally by: Hiroshima Jita Why do marauders have to be for PVE? Faction Battleships are great for PVP as long as you ignore their cost. Even when you don't bring ewar into the equation a faction battleship is better than a marauder by a large margin. If faction BS weren't as good as they are I would understand the angle that "We don't want solopwnmobiles." They're not better, they're just for different tasks. I'll happily fight say a vindicator(or navy mega for that matter) of yours in a kronos - as long as there is no ecm present, and they're very similar. The other ships are much harder to compare as none of them really have even a similar role. It need not be mentioned but I wouldn't be opposed to fight a CNR in a golem either. Parrots, commence! Postcount: 574328
Swynet	Posted - 2011.05.11 13:14:00 - [60] Originally by: Rashmika Clavain Optimal buff to the Kronos IS interesting. I'd prefer to kill my targets at less than 40km for the salvaging... T2 Neutrons would be something I'd like to try on a Kronos if I had that optimal increase :P That and a dronebay and bandwith buff plox. Let's forget the ridiculous drone bay for an advanced battleship Gallente- every one and his stupid mother know Gallente main weapon is drones... Let me learn you how to shoot over 40km with Neutrons: Fit tracking computer scripted optimal distance Fit 2 Faction tracking enhancers Fit T2 long range ammo That's it, you can hit stuff at over 40km, but that's all, you can hit I'm not saying you can harm them really. Change your T2 ammo for faction Iron and you'll be able to hit much far than 40km. What's the issue here? - the issue is not the "hitting" factor, but the dmg one. This is wy blasters will suck hard for a very long time until auto-canons fill their own niche and don't step any more in lasers AND blasters niche doing better and being more versatile than the other 2.

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