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Question regarding 220mm vs 425mm autocannons

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Jesus Rambo Minmatar Merkhan Industries Anarchy Unlimited	Posted - 2011.05.08 04:07:00 - [1] I currently fly a Loki fitted out with 5 220mm ACs. I have no tracking mods or anything, and the Projectile Scoping Array subsystem. However, I've noticed that I still can't hit the very small webbing frigates that come after me on missions. Regular frigates, yes, just not the interceptor-style ones, like the Dram hulls and stuff. It seems like I generally hit for about 80%-full damage on cruisers. Should I upgrade to 425mm autocannons, or will the loss in tracking completely destroy my ability to hit any frigs at all? Is the difference that bad? Thanks!
Copine Callmeknau Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams The KWFL Republic	Posted - 2011.05.08 04:13:00 - [2] If it's a shield/nano build you should be able to pull range on the frigs to allow your guns to track. ofc this requires MWD If it's an armour fit simply web them down In either case you probs want the biggest guns you can fit, and the frigs should be the very first thing you shoot (burning in the opposite direction with barrage loaded if necessary) Failing all else, titanium sabot and depleted uranium both give a tracking bonnus of 20%, might be enough to get your hits in. ...oh wait Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3
sabre906	Posted - 2011.05.08 04:15:00 - [3] Use Immobility driver sub, fit web, and use 425mms. You'll hit better, while having more range and dps.
Jesus Rambo Minmatar Merkhan Industries Anarchy Unlimited	Posted - 2011.05.08 04:18:00 - [4] It is a shield fit, so webs are kinda out of the question unfortunately. By the way, dumb of me not to mention this earlier, it's a PvE boat if you didn't catch that from me mentioning missions. I didn't think of the bonuses on DE ammo, that might be something to try.
Jesus Rambo Minmatar Merkhan Industries Anarchy Unlimited	Posted - 2011.05.08 04:22:00 - [5] Originally by: Copine Callmeknau If it's a shield/nano build you should be able to pull range on the frigs to allow your guns to track. ofc this requires MWD If it's an armour fit simply web them down In either case you probs want the biggest guns you can fit, and the frigs should be the very first thing you shoot (burning in the opposite direction with barrage loaded if necessary) Failing all else, titanium sabot and depleted uranium both give a tracking bonnus of 20%, might be enough to get your hits in. Also I have tried the range thing, I have an AB fit, but even still even at like, 0.05 rad/s angular velocity (guns have tracking of like, 1.475) I can't hit. I'm speculating it's a sig radius issue.
Cartheron Crust Matari Exodus	Posted - 2011.05.08 05:03:00 - [6] Originally by: sabre906 Use Immobility driver sub, fit web, and use 425mms. You'll hit better, while having more range and dps. Do this. Even if you are shield tanked. You can squeeze it on and with six guns and five damage/tracking mods. ;]
Jesus Rambo Minmatar Merkhan Industries Anarchy Unlimited	Posted - 2011.05.08 05:07:00 - [7] Originally by: Cartheron Crust Originally by: sabre906 Use Immobility driver sub, fit web, and use 425mms. You'll hit better, while having more range and dps. Do this. Even if you are shield tanked. You can squeeze it on and with six guns and five damage/tracking mods. ;] What do you think about slapping on a faction tracking computer instead? It seems like it might be a better solution, almost.
Adacia Calla Minmatar Firebird Squadron Terra-Incognita	Posted - 2011.05.08 07:14:00 - [8] warrior 2222222222222sssssssss are your friend with scopiung aray.
I likegirls Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2011.05.08 08:05:00 - [9] Kill frigs before they got their orbit goin' dawg.
Jesus Rambo Minmatar Merkhan Industries Anarchy Unlimited	Posted - 2011.05.08 08:54:00 - [10] Originally by: I likegirls Kill frigs before they got their orbit goin' dawg. With some of the really small ones, spider drones for example, even at like, 0.05 angular velocity, WELL within my tracking I can't hit them.

Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.05.08 09:08:00 - [11] Originally by: Jesus Rambo With some of the really small ones, spider drones for example, even at like, 0.05 angular velocity, WELL within my tracking I can't hit them. At 0.05 rad/s, they're not really well within your trackingà Compared to your guns, they're effectively moving at 0.25 rad/s so you're already down to <25% hit chance before skills and tracking mods (and probably still below 50% with all those things). ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
MWDrive	Posted - 2011.05.08 09:24:00 - [12] Originally by: Jesus Rambo I currently fly a Loki fitted out with 5 220mm ACs. I have no tracking mods or anything, and the Projectile Scoping Array subsystem. Thanks! First of all, fit 6 guns, biggest you can fit. What do you have in lows? You should have at least one TE, if not two. All that aside, just kill frigs with warriors and use your guns on bigger stuff.
Jesus Rambo Minmatar Merkhan Industries Anarchy Unlimited	Posted - 2011.05.08 09:35:00 - [13] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Jesus Rambo With some of the really small ones, spider drones for example, even at like, 0.05 angular velocity, WELL within my tracking I can't hit them. At 0.05 rad/s, they're not really well within your trackingà Compared to your guns, they're effectively moving at 0.25 rad/s so you're already down to <25% hit chance before skills and tracking mods (and probably still below 50% with all those things). How is it that if overview reports 0.05 rad/s, they're actually going .25 rad/s to my guns? I'm not contradicting you, it's entirely possible there's some math here I'm not familiar with. Previously I had assumed that whatever overview displays is what counts for your guns, as well.
Haradriel Tian	Posted - 2011.05.08 09:35:00 - [14] Depleted Uranium and Titanium ammo give you a tracking boost. Or fit some TEs in low. Or web like others have said. You dont even need to use a subsystem bonus for it to work.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.05.08 10:00:00 - [15] Edited by: Tippia on 08/05/2011 10:04:33 Originally by: Jesus Rambo How is it that if overview reports 0.05 rad/s, they're actually going .25 rad/s to my guns? I'm not contradicting you, it's entirely possible there's some math here I'm not familiar with. Because of the word "effectively". Another way of looking at it is that your guns are not tracking at the number it says in the info sheet ù against that small a target (25m sig radius iirc. but that may be way off), it tracks at one fifth its normal speed. This has the same effect on your hit chance as if the target was moving 5+ faster than it actually does. All turrets have a Signature Resolution stat, which is compared against the Signature Radius of the target, and the ratio of SigRes:SigRad acts as a direct multiplier to the turret's tracking. Also, while we're at it, it's worth reminding of the fact that 1:1 tracking ù when the target has an angular velocity that matches the tracking of your guns ù you only have a 50% chance to hit. If they're orbiting at half your tracking speed, you have a 70% chance to hit. So even if you're going after targets that are the right size, being "well within your tracking" still gives you a fairly big chance of missing, and a correspondingly decreased max hit quality. In fact, let's just dump this one here for good measure: Since we're talking about medium turrets, the signature resolution is 125m ù against a small drone target (25m sig radius), the size component comes out as 125/5=5, which means that the target's transversal is effectively multiplied by 5 (or, conversely, that your tracking is divided by 5). ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Headerman Minmatar Element 115. Raiden.	Posted - 2011.05.08 11:37:00 - [16] You have a 50 meter drone bay and 25 mb/s bandwidth, use some warrior 2's and get your guns on a bigger target. If you don't want to do that, fit a concurrence registry instead and get a huge tracking bonus
Jesus Rambo Minmatar Merkhan Industries Anarchy Unlimited	Posted - 2011.05.08 20:43:00 - [17] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 08/05/2011 10:04:33 Originally by: Jesus Rambo How is it that if overview reports 0.05 rad/s, they're actually going .25 rad/s to my guns? I'm not contradicting you, it's entirely possible there's some math here I'm not familiar with. Because of the word "effectively". Another way of looking at it is that your guns are not tracking at the number it says in the info sheet ù against that small a target (25m sig radius iirc. but that may be way off), it tracks at one fifth its normal speed. This has the same effect on your hit chance as if the target was moving 5+ faster than it actually does. All turrets have a Signature Resolution stat, which is compared against the Signature Radius of the target, and the ratio of SigRes:SigRad acts as a direct multiplier to the turret's tracking. Also, while we're at it, it's worth reminding of the fact that 1:1 tracking ù when the target has an angular velocity that matches the tracking of your guns ù you only have a 50% chance to hit. If they're orbiting at half your tracking speed, you have a 70% chance to hit. So even if you're going after targets that are the right size, being "well within your tracking" still gives you a fairly big chance of missing, and a correspondingly decreased max hit quality. In fact, let's just dump this one here for good measure: Since we're talking about medium turrets, the signature resolution is 125m ù against a small drone target (25m sig radius), the size component comes out as 125/5=5, which means that the target's transversal is effectively multiplied by 5 (or, conversely, that your tracking is divided by 5). Great explanation! Thank you so much, that was really helpful. What would you advise then in terms of how I should be flying around these targets? Take the straight line away approach for things this small? And for cruiser targets, IIRC they have a sig radius of 90 vs my guns' 120, so should I take a wider orbit than normal? Thank you so much, again!
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.05.09 01:36:00 - [18] Originally by: Jesus Rambo what is Range in this formula? Distance to target? Yes. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Ilah Gruhbarn	Posted - 2011.05.09 03:04:00 - [19] i use 6x720mm T2 howitzers with dual sansha webs @37km,frigs that manage to go below guns are rare(usually sansha frigs in incursions mission ones don't stand a chance) and do get eaten buy warriors II.
Jesus Rambo Minmatar Merkhan Industries Anarchy Unlimited	Posted - 2011.05.09 03:24:00 - [20] Originally by: Ilah Gruhbarn i use 6x720mm T2 howitzers with dual sansha webs @37km,frigs that manage to go below guns are rare(usually sansha frigs in incursions mission ones don't stand a chance) and do get eaten buy warriors II. Mind posting your fit? Sounds interesting.

Ilah Gruhbarn	Posted - 2011.05.09 04:19:00 - [21] Edited by: Ilah Gruhbarn on 09/05/2011 04:25:19 Originally by: Jesus Rambo Originally by: Ilah Gruhbarn i use 6x720mm T2 howitzers with dual sansha webs @37km,frigs that manage to go below guns are rare(usually sansha frigs in incursions mission ones don't stand a chance) and do get eaten buy warriors II. Mind posting your fit? Sounds interesting. [Loki, New Setup 2] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster Tracking Computer II True Sansha Stasis Webifier True Sansha Stasis Webifier 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Ancillary Current Router I Loki Defensive - Amplification Node Loki Electronics - Immobility Drivers Loki Engineering - Power Core Multiplier Loki Offensive - Projectile Scoping Array Loki Propulsion - Chassis Optimization Hobgoblin II x5 Warrior II x5 Tank 159/159 610 dps high alpha will bring down BS like no one business very nice kill range. implants i use atm: cr8/cc8/cx2/ax2/skirmish warfare mindlink(for boost loki fit) fit will get u killed if u don't know to manage aggro or u are not familiar with the mission u are in. only mission i couldn't finish is AE bonus room AE it self is joke. i used ab instead of TC for a while but this sub system will give u enough speed to mitigate dmg so i choose TC for additional kill range and tracking speed(i use it unscripted). pretty much you are most deadly where your webs range are,giving you ultimate range control coupled with destroyer sig radius thanks to awesome subsystem, battleships cant hit you 90% of time so i just sit sometimes in mission watching 10 bs swarming me and not doing anything,fun times .
Jesus Rambo Minmatar Merkhan Industries Anarchy Unlimited	Posted - 2011.05.09 06:03:00 - [22] Edited by: Jesus Rambo on 09/05/2011 06:08:40 Originally by: Ilah Gruhbarn snip I like it. How much does it cost? Is that booster prohibitively expensive? Eve's down atm or I'd look myself. EDIT: Looks like you'd have a lot of trouble with no speed tank and no local tank, too. Relying on a kill tank with <450 DPS makes me uncomfortable.
Ilah Gruhbarn	Posted - 2011.05.09 14:51:00 - [23] aye it is not easy to fly but i like it i didn't fly any of my isk/hour ships because of this loki it will give u ran for your isk. fly what u feel is ok for you. shield booster jumped in price last time i checked so it is expensive i could buy 2xcc2 and shield booster it self for the current price of it. tank is low but not insufficient except for AE bonus room and you will be preset hard to tank sentry III but i don't have to warp out in missions except if i do something wrong like pull to much aggro in worlds collide mission or such.
Coolmer	Posted - 2011.06.05 09:19:00 - [24] Originally by: Ilah Gruhbarn Edited by: Ilah Gruhbarn on 09/05/2011 04:25:19 Originally by: Jesus Rambo Originally by: Ilah Gruhbarn i use 6x720mm T2 howitzers with dual sansha webs @37km,frigs that manage to go below guns are rare(usually sansha frigs in incursions mission ones don't stand a chance) and do get eaten buy warriors II. Mind posting your fit? Sounds interesting. [Loki, New Setup 2] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster Tracking Computer II True Sansha Stasis Webifier True Sansha Stasis Webifier 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Ancillary Current Router I Loki Defensive - Amplification Node Loki Electronics - Immobility Drivers Loki Engineering - Power Core Multiplier Loki Offensive - Projectile Scoping Array Loki Propulsion - Chassis Optimization Hobgoblin II x5 Warrior II x5 Tank 159/159 610 dps high alpha will bring down BS like no one business very nice kill range. implants i use atm: cr8/cc8/cx2/ax2/skirmish warfare mindlink(for boost loki fit) fit will get u killed if u don't know to manage aggro or u are not familiar with the mission u are in. only mission i couldn't finish is AE bonus room AE it self is joke. i used ab instead of TC for a while but this sub system will give u enough speed to mitigate dmg so i choose TC for additional kill range and tracking speed(i use it unscripted). pretty much you are most deadly where your webs range are,giving you ultimate range control coupled with destroyer sig radius thanks to awesome subsystem, battleships cant hit you 90% of time so i just sit sometimes in mission watching 10 bs swarming me and not doing anything,fun times . are u serious, isk maker with RF ammo? it is ISK eater this fit seams to me like flying coffin worth more than billion of ISK better use mael ,better dmg, better range, larger drone bay .... less expensive
Centus Commander	Posted - 2011.06.05 14:59:00 - [25] Originally by: Coolmer Originally by: Ilah Gruhbarn Edited by: Ilah Gruhbarn on 09/05/2011 04:25:19 Originally by: Jesus Rambo Originally by: Ilah Gruhbarn i use 6x720mm T2 howitzers with dual sansha webs @37km,frigs that manage to go below guns are rare(usually sansha frigs in incursions mission ones don't stand a chance) and do get eaten buy warriors II. Mind posting your fit? Sounds interesting. [Loki, New Setup 2] Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster Tracking Computer II True Sansha Stasis Webifier True Sansha Stasis Webifier 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M 720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II Medium Ancillary Current Router I Loki Defensive - Amplification Node Loki Electronics - Immobility Drivers Loki Engineering - Power Core Multiplier Loki Offensive - Projectile Scoping Array Loki Propulsion - Chassis Optimization Hobgoblin II x5 Warrior II x5 Tank 159/159 610 dps high alpha will bring down BS like no one business very nice kill range. implants i use atm: cr8/cc8/cx2/ax2/skirmish warfare mindlink(for boost loki fit) fit will get u killed if u don't know to manage aggro or u are not familiar with the mission u are in. only mission i couldn't finish is AE bonus room AE it self is joke. i used ab instead of TC for a while but this sub system will give u enough speed to mitigate dmg so i choose TC for additional kill range and tracking speed(i use it unscripted). pretty much you are most deadly where your webs range are,giving you ultimate range control coupled with destroyer sig radius thanks to awesome subsystem, battleships cant hit you 90% of time so i just sit sometimes in mission watching 10 bs swarming me and not doing anything,fun times . are u serious, isk maker with RF ammo? it is ISK eater this fit seams to me like flying coffin worth more than billion of ISK better use mael ,better dmg, better range, larger drone bay .... less expensive He's using Arty's, not AC's. Arty's don't eat ammo, They slowly chew it distracting the enemy, then secretly coming in with a round-house kick to destroy them


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