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End the Madness

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Rek Jaiga Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators	Posted - 2011.05.09 01:14:00 - [31] Originally by: Andreus Ixiris Come up with something real and meaningful and then maybe we'll talk. Though I am not in my pod, my ship's irony sensors blared so loudly I could hear them from my quarters. Unity Prevails.
Rek Jaiga Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators	Posted - 2011.05.09 02:39:00 - [32] I must excuse myself from the figurative debate table. I have been emotionally compromised and am in no condition to formulate, defend, or even discuss arguments of any sort. Unity Prevails.
Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2011.05.09 03:13:00 - [33] Originally by: Rek Jaiga I must excuse myself from the figurative debate table. I have been emotionally compromised and am in no condition to formulate, defend, or even discuss arguments of any sort. This is true all the time. Guess that means we won't be seeing you any time soon. We won't miss you. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Rek Jaiga Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators	Posted - 2011.05.09 03:20:00 - [34] Originally by: Andreus Ixiris This is true all the time. Guess that means we won't be seeing you any time soon. We won't miss you. Oh sod off, you ad hominem-flinging ankle-biter. You're pretty mighty whenever you throw in a personal attack without contributing a single damned thing to a discussion, aren't you? At least I try to improve things; you do little else but tear other peoples' ideas down without giving an alternative. You amount to little more than a bully of the intellectual world. Unity Prevails.
Crucifire Zaratha Zarati	Posted - 2011.05.09 03:22:00 - [35] Get ****d by a horse, Ixiris.
Lyn Farel Knighthood of the Merciful Crown	Posted - 2011.05.09 17:59:00 - [36] Originally by: Aria Jenneth Originally by: Rek Jaiga Jaigan Argument. 1) Attempting to reduce human morality to mathematics is folly from the outset. The universe is morally silent. Human morality is a set of intuitive reactions derived from instinct and guided by socialization; there's nothing particularly "rational" about it. Ergo, your entire approach is flawed. Everything is eventually mathematics, but you need a very deep understanding of the universe to explain the most complex things at such an elemantary level. Thought his reasoning is flawed, yes.
Rek Jaiga Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators	Posted - 2011.05.09 18:34:00 - [37] Originally by: Lyn Farel Originally by: Aria Jenneth Originally by: Rek Jaiga Jaigan Argument. 1) Attempting to reduce human morality to mathematics is folly from the outset. The universe is morally silent. Human morality is a set of intuitive reactions derived from instinct and guided by socialization; there's nothing particularly "rational" about it. Ergo, your entire approach is flawed. Everything is eventually mathematics, but you need a very deep understanding of the universe to explain the most complex things at such an elemantary level. Thought his reasoning is flawed, yes. Yes yes. My argument is internally valid but when held up to scrutiny leaves us back at square one. My reasoning abilities are fine, but perhaps my ability to interpret data is not quite as great. I have not yet proven anything. There, happy? Look how gracious I am, admitting when I am wrong instead of dragging things ad nauseam! Unity Prevails.
Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2011.05.09 19:32:00 - [38] Originally by: Rek Jaiga Oh sod off, you ad hominem-flinging ankle-biter. Originally by: Crucifire Get **d by a horse, Ixiris. You two are so many kinds of ironic. And pathetic. Watching Nation supporters get angry is a joy. Originally by:** Rek Jaiga You're pretty mighty whenever you throw in a personal attack without contributing a single damned thing to a discussion, aren't you? You're Sansha. Your commentary holds no merit and your discussions deserve no politeness. Originally by: Rek Jaiga At least I try to improve things Don't make me laugh. Originally by: Rek Jaiga you do little else but tear other peoples' ideas down without giving an alternative. You amount to little more than a bully of the intellectual world. That sort of accusations is reserved for the intellectually bankrupt. You're sand between my toes. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Rek Jaiga Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators	Posted - 2011.05.09 19:36:00 - [39] Originally by: Andreus Ixiris You're Sansha. Your commentary holds no merit and your discussions deserve no politeness. "You are of faction X, and thus your words hold no meaning". Really man? I love how you just declare somebody's words meaningless. It's like a handwave of the most ignorant kind. Originally by: Andreus Ixiris That sort of accusations is reserved for the intellectually bankrupt. You're sand between my toes. Right, becuase it's ok for me to admit a wrongdoing or otherwise recognzie my own flaws, but God forbid you do the same. You're just too damned infallible! Everyone bow down to the mighty Andreus Ixiris! Unity Prevails.
Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2011.05.09 19:43:00 - [40] Originally by: Rek Jaiga "You are of faction X, and thus your words hold no meaning". Really man? I love how you just declare somebody's words meaningless. It's like a handwave of the most ignorant kind. Pretty much every argument in favour of the Sansha's Nation has already been discredited. I have no need, desire nor inclination to waste my time repeating these refutations for your benefit. Originally by: Rek Jaiga Right, becuase it's ok for me to admit a wrongdoing or otherwise recognzie my own flaws, but God forbid you do the same. There is no God. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Rek Jaiga Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators	Posted - 2011.05.09 19:46:00 - [41] Originally by: Andreus Ixiris Pretty much every argument in favour of the Sansha's Nation has already been discredited. I have no need, desire nor inclination to waste my time repeating these refutations for your benefit. "Discredited" and "disproven" are two very different things. To discredit something is simply to make something be distrusted; not so hard with most people in the case of Nation. To actually disprove something is a much grander task. Originally by: Andreus Ixiris There is no God. It's an expression. Meaning that not even an all-powerful entity could bring your massive ego down to size. Unity Prevails.
Crucifire Zaratha Zarati	Posted - 2011.05.09 19:49:00 - [42] Originally by: Andreus Ixiris Pretty much every argument in favour of the Sansha's Nation has already been discredited. I have no need, desire nor inclination to waste my time repeating these refutations for your benefit. But you're here anyway, wasting your time telling us about how you're not going to waste your time. You're sadder than my mother's sagging breasts.
Lliera Amarr	Posted - 2011.05.09 19:49:00 - [43] You have to be aware, Rek Jaiga, that much of your reasonning is based on one particular axiom : the True Slave gestalt consciousness is happy. In some ways, my Empire and your Nation are alike : We capture unwilling people and integrate them within our society, because we believe that is ultimately for their own good. The key world here being believe. This is where the problem lies. 'All these people, they are dubious, they do not see', is in essence, what you think of us, is it not ? This is because, for all your logical theories and passionate convictions, the True Path is shrouded in a thick blanket of mystery concerning its true nature and purpose, just as our Scriptures. Whatever axiom you will then take to prove your point will be nothing more than...well, axioms. You've said it yourself : You have not experienced being a True Slave. But I don't think I've made my point, so I'll clarify : Because of the deeds you comitted, that are widely regarded as heinous, any justification you will provide that is not backed by a massive amount of facts will be tramped down by those who hold the "moral high ground", that is, the most widely shared moral principles. Unfortunately, the Amarr Empire provide a very concrete and useful exemple : We thought enslaving the Minmatar would redeem their souls, and many still believe this is the case today. We genuinly thought we were performing something seemingly evil for the greater good. And for that, even today after Heideran VII and Jamyl I extensive campaign to restore the image of our Empire, we are often perceived as fanatic baby-eating slavers. You don't even have that. You've never tried to redeem yourself or prove that your goals and means are morally acceptable for the layman. I understand that this is the very purpose of your initiative. But it is likely to fail. I undertand you motives and your bitterness toward the Empires too. I understand that, even if it isn't perfect, you believe Sansha's ways are the least of all evils. I understand, but I disagree. If your path lead you to my Empire, I will seek the ruin of your fleet. But I will not seek you during the battle.
Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2011.05.09 19:50:00 - [44] Originally by: Rek Jaiga "Discredited" and "disproven" are two very different things. To discredit something is simply to make something be distrusted; not so hard with most people in the case of Nation. To actually disprove something is a much grander task. Ah, so now it boils down to semantics. Well it's both. The type of people who make the argument - delusional, backstabbing sociopaths, for the most part - discredit it perfectly. Logic and reason does the brute force work for disproving. Originally by: Rek Jaiga It's an expression. Meaning that not even an all-powerful entity could bring your massive ego down to size. It's funny that you talk about ego, and yet in the same breath sing the praises of a Nation whose explicit, sole purpose is to act as a vehicle for the God complex of the one who named it after himself. You are a sad, sorry little individual, and even if I had the empathy required to pity you, I still probably wouldn't. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Rek Jaiga Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators	Posted - 2011.05.09 19:55:00 - [45] Originally by: Andreus Ixiris The type of people who make the argument - delusional, backstabbing sociopaths, for the most part - discredit it perfectly. The characteristics of the person making an argument determine whether or not the argument is correct, am I right? Oh wait.. Originally by: Andreus Ixiris It's funny that you talk about ego, and yet in the same breath sing the praises of a Nation whose explicit, sole purpose is to act as a vehicle for the God complex of the one who named it after himself. Because he is the single greatest opportunity of the last century to improve humanity! Why would you not take the deal of a century? Originally by: Andreus Ixiris You are a sad, sorry little individual, and even if I had the empathy required to pity you, I still probably wouldn't. Oh my poor heart. I do not know how I'll survive! Unity Prevails.
Rek Jaiga Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators	Posted - 2011.05.09 19:59:00 - [46] Originally by: Lliera You don't even have that. You've never tried to redeem yourself or prove that your goals and means are morally acceptable for the layman. I understand that this is the very purpose of your initiative. But I have been trying to demonstrate Nation's morality, and I have tried to demonstrate that this is one of the greatest opportunities for humanity out there! Originally by: Lliera But it is likely to fail. Even if this is the case, I must press on until not a single True Slave exists anymore. Only then will I know Nation is not viable. In any case, I thank you for at least understanding things, even if only from a historical perspective. Unity Prevails.
Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2011.05.09 20:12:00 - [47] Originally by: Rek Jaiga The characteristics of the person making an argument determine whether or not the argument is correct, am I right? Oh wait.. The characteristics of a person are relevant to an argument - and thus, in case I have to spell it out for you, not ad hominem - if that behaviour directly impacts on the validity of the arguments pressented. Nation is supposed to be a sinless, flawless collective of perfect Unity. It has time and again proved that it is nothing of the sort by the statements and actions of those who support it. Originally by: Rek Jaiga Because he is the single greatest opportunity of the last century to improve humanity! Why would you not take the deal of a century? Because he's nothing of the sort. The only reason he even bothers pretending it is is because as many people - Vaari, SirMolle, Constantine, Aralis - have discovered, it's harder to get supporters for what is openly a personal vanity project than a personal vanity project that pretends it has a higher cause. Originally by: Rek Jaiga Oh my poor heart. I do not know how I'll survive! Just get it replaced, like everything else about you. Originally by: Rek Jaiga But I have been trying to demonstrate Nation's morality, and I have tried to demonstrate that this is one of the greatest opportunities for humanity out there! And you've failed spectacularly. Originally by: Rek Jaiga Even if this is the case, I must press on until not a single True Slave exists anymore. Only then will I know Nation is not viable. That's a lot of work to prove something that's already self-evident. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Rek Jaiga Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators	Posted - 2011.05.09 20:21:00 - [48] Originally by: Andreus Ixiris The characteristics of a person are relevant to an argument - and thus, in case I have to spell it out for you, not ad hominem - if that behaviour directly impacts on the validity of the arguments pressented. Nation is supposed to be a sinless, flawless collective of perfect Unity. It has time and again proved that it is nothing of the sort by the statements and actions of those who support it. Let me be abundantly clear, although I've stated it far too many times. Now hear this! I am not a part of Nation. I simply support it. If I were a true slave I would be sinless, I would be flawless, and I would be part of the collective of perfect Unity. But I am not a True Slave, and thus I am prone to imperfectionm etc. Has my utilization of underlining, bolding, and italics made it clear enough? For frak's sake, just know that I am not a True Slave and thus do not represent Nation, but only represent myself as a supporter. There, I have said it for the last time. You either understand it, or you don't. It's been spelled out, as clear as crystal. Good day sir! Unity Prevails.
Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2011.05.09 20:28:00 - [49] Originally by: Rek Jaiga Let me be abundantly clear, although I've stated it far too many times. Now hear this! [u][b]I am not a part of Nation. I simply support it. If I were a true slave I would be sinless, I would be flawless, and I would be part of the collective of perfect Unity. So if this Unity is so perfect, why don't you join it, Rek? Originally by: Rek Jaiga But I am not a True Slave Yeah, that figures. I did imagine they have at least some recruiting standards. Originally by: Rek Jaiga I am not a True Slave and thus do not represent Nation, but only represent myself as a supporter. If the Nation is as perfect as you say it is, why do you not join it? What's stopping you? Originally by: Rek Jaiga You either understand it, or you don't. I think I do understand, finally. I didn't before, but I do now. I know what your problem is: you don't really believe in Nation, do you? Else there'd be absolutely nothing holding you back from actually joining it, rather than just "supporting" it. You're just not so sure that it lives up to all your hype. You're afraid you might actually be wrong. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Tsual Minmatar	Posted - 2011.05.09 20:31:00 - [50] Originally by: Rek Jaiga E = "One or more of the non-Nation factions are morally correct in a utilitarian sense" N = "Sansha's Nation is morally correct in a utilitarian sense" R = "The debate of Nation's morality is relevant" p1) (EvN)<-->R p2) R p3) [(EvN)-->R] & [R-->(EvN)] (Premise one, material equivalence) p4) R-->(EvN) (Premise three, simplification) p5) EvN (Premises two and four, modus ponens) p6) ~E C) N (Premises five and six, disjunctive syllogism), QED p1) (EvN)<-->R p2) R p3) [(EvN)-->R] & [R-->(EvN)] (Premise one, material equivalence) p4) R-->(EvN) (Premise three, simplification) is most likely an error as [(EvN)-->R] != [R-->(EvN)] Although one or more factions or Sansha's nation are morally correct therefore a discussion about the nation's morality is relevant doesn't equal a discussion about the nation's morality is relevant therefore one or more factions or sanchas nation are morally correct But nice to see that Sansha runs on non sequiturs.
ValentinaDLM Minmatar Zaratha Zarati	Posted - 2011.05.09 22:34:00 - [51] Originally by: Andreus Ixiris If the Nation is as perfect as you say it is, why do you not join it? What's stopping you? You know very well, Sansha's Nation has no open program to allow capsuleers to join, such as the empires have such as the Federal Defence Union et al. If Master Kuvakei decides to open such a program we would be the first to show up. But since you are just saying this as you want to hear angry voices, hold on, let me think of an insult to placate you, as you seem to have a fetish for verbal abuse...ah, I have it "Why don't you choke on your own bile Ixiris" Happy? Or would you prefer more chidlish galnet memes?
Rek Jaiga Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators	Posted - 2011.05.09 22:47:00 - [52] Originally by: ValentinaDLM You know very well, Sansha's Nation has no open program to allow capsuleers to join, such as the empires have such as the Federal Defence Union et al. If Master Kuvakei decides to open such a program we would be the first to show up. This precisely. For whatever reason, Master Kuvakei isn't Integrating capsuleers of any alignment. Some of us loyalists have tried to contact him directly on this matter, and others of us have even appealed to CONCORD to give us some sort of official status (or at least a leather jacket with a patch; something) as Nation-loyal capsuleers. Even the empires' militias are more or less official...Nation loyalists have nothing of the sort.
Rek Jaiga Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators	Posted - 2011.05.09 22:55:00 - [53] Originally by: Tsual p4) R-->(EvN) (Premise three, simplification) is most likely an error as [(EvN)-->R] != [R-->(EvN)] Erhm, yes I'm aware that P-->Q is not the same as Q-->P. But did you know that P<-->Q is the same as [(P-->Q) & (Q-->P)]? It's called material equivalence, and from there we can simplify to only the part we are concerned with: in this case R-->(EvN). You misinterpret. I said "It is the case that one or more non-Nation factions is morally correct OR Nation is morally correct IF AND ONLY IF the discussion is relevant". By non-modal logic, this makes the argument as a whole valid. But as was demonstrated earlier, when held up to modal logic we end up at square one: Sansha's Nation is either moral or amoral, which is a given. Unity Prevails.
Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2011.05.09 23:14:00 - [54] Originally by: ValentinaDLM You know very well, Sansha's Nation has no open program to allow capsuleers to join such as the empires have such as the Federal Defence Union et al. Of course he doesn't. That's an organisation, not a process. You could simply submit your body to the same process as all other True Slaves go through - that all the people brutally abducted from their homes last year went through. But something tells me that you don't have the spine to do it. Originally by: ValentinaDLM But since you are just saying this as you want to hear angry voices, hold on, let me think of an insult to placate you, as you seem to have a fetish for verbal abuse...ah, I have it "Why don't you choke on your own bile Ixiris" Happy? Or would you prefer more chidlish galnet memes? No. It just gives me pleasure to see Nation supporters angry. And to know that they have absolutely no power to strike back at me. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Rek Jaiga Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators	Posted - 2011.05.09 23:24:00 - [55] Originally by: Andreus Ixiris And to know that they have absolutely no power to strike back at me. Wander into the wrong parts of the cluster and we can change that. Or do you have the spine? Unity Prevails.
Crucifire Zaratha Zarati	Posted - 2011.05.09 23:26:00 - [56] Something tells me that if any of us become True Slaves, you'd refute it anyways saying we're just more "delusional capsuleers." You really are a ***. I'm not angry, anyway. I'll still say it again in a nice, calm, and controlled tone; get ***d by a horse.
Rek Jaiga Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators	Posted - 2011.05.09 23:36:00 - [57] Originally by: Andreus Ixiris You could simply submit your body to the same process as all other True Slaves go through - that all the people brutally abducted from their homes last year went through. Again, you think some haven't tried it already? I knew one Sister of Nation...she wanted to have a Nation TCMC put in her head. Without going into too much detail, the blasted thing didn't work. She wasn't included in the Integration process... She cried a lot; I felt bad for her but there's really nothing we can do. And I mean that: nothing. Master Kuvakei seems to reject capsuleers of any form (in pod or not) when it comes to Integration (bar the incident with Jasmine Sho, but that was obviously something other than Integration and didn't involve Nation [despite 21EL's claims], as she came back as a Unit Commune project participant rather than a True Slave. Weird, right?). Perhaps he views us as a greater asset as we are now, at least for the time being. When the time comes, we will be willing; we wish to be Seen. Unity Prevails.
Driselle Minmatar 21st Eridani Lighthorse	Posted - 2011.05.09 23:42:00 - [58] Rek, what would you do if we ALL actually did exactly what you ask and joined Nation? Proprietor, 'The Razor's Edge Dance Club'
Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2011.05.10 00:35:00 - [59] Originally by: Crucifire Something tells me that if any of us become True Slaves, you'd refute it anyways saying we're just more "delusional capsuleers." You really are a ***. I'm not angry, anyway. I'll still say it again in a nice, calm, and controlled tone; get ***d by a horse. Your rage sustains me, you pathetic little woman. Oh, and you are a delusional capsuleer. So that's funny too. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
Marenteius Caldari Red Coats	Posted - 2011.05.10 00:39:00 - [60] Ummmmm, i'll just ask the question thats been on my mind; Rek, did you actually expect this argument to change anyone's mind? -------------- Who are you? What do you want? Where are you going? Why are you here?

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