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Lyn Farel Knighthood of the Merciful Crown	Posted - 2011.05.12 19:14:00 - [91] Edited by: Lyn Farel on 12/05/2011 19:14:22 Originally by: Nola Doyle Lyn Farel, restating my position based on your interpretation will only lead to greater miscommunication. I had never implied absolutes in any of my points stated above, and it was you who made the inference to polar extremes of absolute chaos and harmony. If you had read my content with greater clarity, you would have understood that my discontent lies in humanity's inability to perceive its future in the macro-perspective, and the cultures that perpetuate freedom irresponsibly without understanding the distant ramifications. I believe a greater awareness is a necessity if our species is to prosper in the coming years. What I find revealing about your commentary is the general acceptance you have taken to propaganda perpetuated by the Coalition and its allies. Your presumptions about Kuvakei and his overall goals, the assimilation and elimination of individuality in a hive-mind structure are all borne from assumption and conclusions based on incomplete data. Rek Jaiga has cited several examples of citizens within Nation who maintain their individuality and uniqueness, and as someone who has visited the Promised Land I can personally attest to several such encounters. You are, of course, at liberty to deny such evidence, but I can assure you it does not make it any less a reality. Also, you are truly deluded if you believe Sansha Kuvakei controls his navy at the individual level. One of the main reasons why man has integrated closer to a neural network rather than being replaced entirely by artifical intelligence is that the human brain has something to offer to the equation. Creativity, unpredictability, ingenuity, call it what you will, this can have a significant impact on the field, as evidenced in both His latest fleets and capsule pilots. Miscommunication indeed. Which is quite interesting between 2 scientific minds. As I said above, I agree with all your statements. I disagree with all the political conclusions that have been exposed above. Which shows in a certain way that science is universal, though politics are not. I will not play to "It was you that said that / No it was you / No you" games with two individuals pointing at each other until another one gives up. I prefer to give up immediatly for this is totally clueless. I also do not take to any propaganda. Every propaganda have to be analyzed and taken for what it is : an immense source of information hidden meanings, and revelations about the mind of their emitter. I also hold no grudges against the principles of the Nation as some of its concepts have been thought and considered for millenias now, if even more. I still find that Kuvakei method is probably doomed to failure by inconsistancies, not because it will eventually see the downfall of the system, but because it is probably erasing or at least totally reducing our chances to attain someday the Truth we are craving for, for the simple reason it is reducing diversity by alignement on a same mind/mindset. Let me ask you a question : do you believe in Evolution ?
Nola Doyle NeuroGEN	Posted - 2011.05.12 19:25:00 - [92] Originally by: Lyn Farel Let me ask you a question : do you believe in Evolution ? I accept the idea based on the evidence of its existence in nature. It doesn't require me to believe it. Dr. Nola J. Doyle Co-CEO, NeuroGEN
Lyn Farel Knighthood of the Merciful Crown	Posted - 2011.05.12 19:42:00 - [93] Originally by: Nola Doyle Originally by: Lyn Farel Let me ask you a question : do you believe in Evolution ? I accept the idea based on the evidence of its existence in nature. It doesn't require me to believe it. I see, so I suppose that it does not necessarily bother you if you go against it.
Nola Doyle NeuroGEN	Posted - 2011.05.12 20:24:00 - [94] Originally by: Lyn Farel I see, so I suppose that it does not necessarily bother you if you go against it. Presumption of my position without any evidence to support your claim is libel at best. Unless we've been reduced to, as you say, you said/no you said dialogue, I would strongly encourage supporting this statement with some evidence. Dr. Nola J. Doyle Co-CEO, NeuroGEN
Rek Jaiga Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators	Posted - 2011.05.12 22:23:00 - [95] Not sure how evolution was thrown in here. Evolution is certainly a true theory, but with mankind it's a bit different. Unlike most other species, we evolve through the use of technology. Certainly, we can evolve by waiting around for millions of years in the style of animals. But we are not animals, and can achieve much more in a shorter amount of time. We evolve through knowledge and technology. Hence it follows we will move farther and farther from our biological roots as we evolve. The Jove are an excellent demonstration of this. The True Slaves of Nation are also an example of evolution via technology. Unity Prevails.
Hori To Masuat'aa Matari	Posted - 2011.05.12 22:29:00 - [96] The Jove are also an example how horribly wrong it can go. Tossing all of humanity in one boat does not see very wise.
Rek Jaiga Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators	Posted - 2011.05.12 22:34:00 - [97] Originally by: Hori To The Jove are also an example how horribly wrong it can go. Tossing all of humanity in one boat does not see very wise. Yes, but mistakes were made. They will not be repeated, especially since Nation is evolving in an entirely different way than the Jove. Unity Prevails.
Hori To Masuat'aa Matari	Posted - 2011.05.12 23:25:00 - [98] Originally by: Rek Jaiga Originally by: Hori To The Jove are also an example how horribly wrong it can go. Tossing all of humanity in one boat does not see very wise. Yes, but mistakes were made. They will not be repeated, especially since Nation is evolving in an entirely different way than the Jove. I certainly hope not, I expect that other, brand new mistakes can be made though. And my point on all eggs in one basket still stands. The Nation could be the best thing ever, or it could make us extinct. Diversity is the key to survival, species that overspecialise are very vulnerable to extinction. The whole "Kuvakei is infallible" notion is hubris of epic proportions.
Rek Jaiga Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators	Posted - 2011.05.12 23:46:00 - [99] Originally by: Hori To I certainly hope not, I expect that other, brand new mistakes can be made though. And my point on all eggs in one basket still stands. The Nation could be the best thing ever, or it could make us extinct. Diversity is the key to survival, species that overspecialise are very vulnerable to extinction. If the entire cluster were to be Integrated there would still be plenty of genetic diversity in the gene pool. Nation itself is not a stagnant entity, but rather a protean one able to adapt to any situation quickly. Because of the unique advantages provided by Unity, any issues that may arise are quickly made known to the entire Nation and a solution is quickly found from collective thinking. Originally by: Hori To The whole "Kuvakei is infallible" notion is hubris of epic proportions. By no means am I asserting that Master Kuvakei is infallible. As I've said in other posts I do not view him as a god, but he can be the savior of mankind and at the very least is a genius of cosmic proportions. What keeps him from failing is unparalleled foresight and the wisdom acquired from over a hundred years of development and listening to his True Citizens and the True Sansha. Unity Prevails.
Hori To Masuat'aa Matari	Posted - 2011.05.13 00:05:00 - [100] Originally by: Rek Jaiga Originally by: Hori To I certainly hope not, I expect that other, brand new mistakes can be made though. And my point on all eggs in one basket still stands. The Nation could be the best thing ever, or it could make us extinct. Diversity is the key to survival, species that overspecialise are very vulnerable to extinction. If the entire cluster were to be Integrated there would still be plenty of genetic diversity in the gene pool. Nation itself is not a stagnant entity, but rather a protean one able to adapt to any situation quickly. Because of the unique advantages provided by Unity, any issues that may arise are quickly made known to the entire Nation and a solution is quickly found from collective thinking. Originally by: Hori To The whole "Kuvakei is infallible" notion is hubris of epic proportions. By no means am I asserting that Master Kuvakei is infallible. As I've said in other posts I do not view him as a god, but he can be the savior of mankind and at the very least is a genius of cosmic proportions. What keeps him from failing is unparalleled foresight and the wisdom acquired from over a hundred years of development and listening to his True Citizens and the True Sansha. He might be the saviour of mankind, I just want to opt out of his experiments. I have guns.
Rek Jaiga Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators	Posted - 2011.05.13 00:10:00 - [101] Originally by: Hori To He might be the saviour of mankind, I just want to opt out of his experiments. I have guns. It may please you to know that, as far anyone knows, not a single capsuleer has been Integrated yet. When the day comes though... I'll be one of the first in line for an official Nation militia-like organization. Unity Prevails.
Nicoletta Mithra Amarr Ordo Novus Mul-Zatah	Posted - 2011.05.13 14:55:00 - [102] Originally by: Rek Jaiga Why should we hold the natural functions of humans in any sort of high regard? Yes, we've reached across the planets. Yes, we've reached across the stars, and even the bounds of spacetime itself. But we have still failed to reach one thing: an understanding. This bothers me greatly. Because we are humans? Because not holding them in high regard, but contrarily putting them aside leads to the dehumanization of humanity? Originally by: Rek Jaiga I fail to see how lack of interaction leads to the inability to reach maximum potential. There is still plenty to interact with, namely the universe around us (which is enigma enough to perplex any species or super-organism for as long as they may exist). Well, but it will necessarily fail to realize its potential of interacting with others of its own kind. Originally by: Rek Jaiga It doesn't need to; the individual members of the Unit still retain the ability to sexually reproduce. Individuals make up the Unit (just as cells make up tissues, which in turn make up organs, which in turn forms a body), and similarly the Unit has holistic properties derived from the individual members. Well, it has no need to reproduce sexually to survive, but that doesn't mean that it will be a human species because it lacks humanity as well as a necessary precondition, that is consisting of a multitude of individual super-organisms, to constitute a species. Also, you confuse here what makes up an individual and what makes something individual (without article!). It's not that the Unit is made up of individuals just as cells make up tissues and thus organs and an entire organism, because cells are not individuals, even though they are individual cells. The individual given Unity is the Unit, not what makes it up - the anthropomorphic individual bodies of the Unit. The human as individual is lost when the Unity is achieved. So, while the Unity Sansha may strive for necessarily realizes more of the natural functions a human can realize, it also minimizes the natural functions that are possibly realizable by humans and therefore minimizes the naural functions that will ever be realized by necessity. Thus, even if any lawgiver were able to unify humanity, he must not do so. _
Rek Jaiga Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators	Posted - 2011.05.13 15:57:00 - [103] Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra Because we are humans? Because not holding them in high regard, but contrarily putting them aside leads to the dehumanization of humanity? But what of the transhuman? In order to reach a transhuman state certain aspects of one's humanity must be put aside, enhanced beyond recognition, or what-have-you. In other wordds, yes dehumanization is acceptable because we can become more than human, greater than human even. Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra Well, but it will necessarily fail to realize its potential of interacting with others of its own kind. For a super-organism, the interaction with the universe is much grander than social interaction. It may sound "lonely", but there are solipsists who have already developed methods for coping with loneliness. And anyway, I must stress that Nation has more than one mind; they are simply interconnected and Unified. Originally by: Nicoletta Mithra Well, it has no need to reproduce sexually to survive, but that doesn't mean that it will be a human species because it lacks humanity [...] The human as individual is lost when the Unity is achieved. Except that True Slaves will still refer to themselves as "I" at times. The self is still realized in Unity, and indeed is enhanced through Unity. Unity Prevails.
Hori To Masuat'aa Matari	Posted - 2011.05.13 16:10:00 - [104] What about my planet bound third cousin, she doesn't have several battleship and death immunity through cloning. She doesn't want to join unity either.
Rek Jaiga Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators	Posted - 2011.05.13 16:43:00 - [105] As I've said, Unity is nothing to be feared. It is not as the empires depict. Unity Prevails.
Lyn Farel Knighthood of the Merciful Crown	Posted - 2011.05.13 20:29:00 - [106] Originally by: Nola Doyle Originally by: Lyn Farel I see, so I suppose that it does not necessarily bother you if you go against it. Presumption of my position without any evidence to support your claim is libel at best. Unless we've been reduced to, as you say, you said/no you said dialogue, I would strongly encourage supporting this statement with some evidence. I am presuming nothing. I am sorry you took it otherwise. This is why I said "suppose". Suppose does not induce any conclusion, nor statement of a truth. It means this is an hypothesis, and actually in my case, it was a merely a question. I should have added a question mark, I suppose. Side note : I still have difficulties to cope with your useless insufferable condescension. Originally by: Rek Jaiga Not sure how evolution was thrown in here. Evolution is certainly a true theory, but with mankind it's a bit different. Unlike most other species, we evolve through the use of technology. Certainly, we can evolve by waiting around for millions of years in the style of animals. But we are not animals, and can achieve much more in a shorter amount of time. We evolve through knowledge and technology. Hence it follows we will move farther and farther from our biological roots as we evolve. The Jove are an excellent demonstration of this. The True Slaves of Nation are also an example of evolution via technology. Evolution was only another point revolving around the Nation concept. Though as everyone, Nation strives to achieve evolution trough technology (and more important, true knowledge, a side that Sansha might have forgotten in the recent years, busy to scavenge on sleeper tech for war purposes), yet Nation implies that human consciousness has to be erased, or altered in a significant way to continue this evolution on a different path. Consciousness is one of the results of the evolution of our own species. Dampening it might lead to new progresses (might...), but you will have to backpedal this same evolution before doing anything. In any case, this is not an opinion of any kind, just a mere neutral statement.
Lyn Farel Knighthood of the Merciful Crown	Posted - 2011.05.13 20:32:00 - [107] Originally by: Rek Jaiga As I've said, Unity is nothing to be feared. It is not as the empires depict. Ah I suppose you have absolutely no problems with the orthodox Amarrian Reclaiming ?
GIGAR Caldari	Posted - 2011.05.13 21:05:00 - [108] Originally by: Lyn Farel Evolution was only another point revolving around the Nation concept. Though as everyone, Nation strives to achieve evolution trough technology (and more important, true knowledge, a side that Sansha might have forgotten in the recent years, busy to scavenge on sleeper tech for war purposes), yet Nation implies that human consciousness has to be erased, or altered in a significant way to continue this evolution on a different path. Uhm, if I may interrupt; I haven't seen any evidence or heard any rumors that Sansha are using Sleeper technology. With the possible exception of their wormhole generator (if it's not Jove), I am of the understanding that they make everything themselves. But the simple fact that you compare Sansha with Sleepers says a bit about how far the Sansha have gone in therms of technology... ------------ "I've yet to meet one that can outsmart bullet." - Heavy Weapons Guy
Rek Jaiga Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators	Posted - 2011.05.13 23:15:00 - [109] Originally by: Lyn Farel Ah I suppose you have absolutely no problems with the orthodox Amarrian Reclaiming ? Does it lead to Unity? If so, then not at all. I could go on about the Amarrians and the Reclaiming, but that's another topic. Unity Prevails.
Nola Doyle NeuroGEN	Posted - 2011.05.14 06:31:00 - [110] Lyn Farel, if you find my condescension insufferable then I strongly suggest disengaging at this point because I'm certain you won't glean any satisfaction from this. The term suppose used as a verb, an action, makes an assumption of a position or theory. When you suppose that it doesn't necessarily bother me that I go against the concept of evolution, regardless of whether it's formed as a question, you are implying for the sake of argument that this is the position that I hold. I find that...presumptuous. For the sake of simplicity, I'd strongly suggest refraining from the use of convoluted sentences when direct verbiage might eliminate any further miscommunication between us. Respectfully, Dr. Nola J. Doyle Co-CEO, NeuroGEN
Lyn Farel Knighthood of the Merciful Crown	Posted - 2011.05.14 13:08:00 - [111] Edited by: Lyn Farel on 14/05/2011 13:09:00 Originally by: Nola Doyle Lyn Farel, if you find my condescension insufferable then I strongly suggest disengaging at this point because I'm certain you won't glean any satisfaction from this. The term suppose used as a verb, an action, makes an assumption of a position or theory. When you suppose that it doesn't necessarily bother me that I go against the concept of evolution, regardless of whether it's formed as a question, you are implying for the sake of argument that this is the position that I hold. I find that...presumptuous. For the sake of simplicity, I'd strongly suggest refraining from the use of convoluted sentences when direct verbiage might eliminate any further miscommunication between us. Respectfully, The term suppose also makes an assumption of a hypothesis. You are not even trying to understand, just for the sake of evading the argument. Originally by: Rek Jaiga Originally by: Lyn Farel Ah I suppose you have absolutely no problems with the orthodox Amarrian Reclaiming ? Does it lead to Unity? If so, then not at all. I could go on about the Amarrians and the Reclaiming, but that's another topic. Because you are preaching exactly the same thing when it comes to the reclaiming principles, put aside what you do with the slaves after ?
Rek Jaiga Minmatar Crimson Path Shaktipat Revelators	Posted - 2011.05.14 17:06:00 - [112] Originally by: Lyn Farel Because you are preaching exactly the same thing when it comes to the reclaiming principles, put aside what you do with the slaves after ? Parallels have been drawn between the Reclaiming and Integration, yes. Both are massive attempts at bringing some sort of enlightenment to the cluster. What are you trying to get at? Unity Prevails.
Lyn Farel Knighthood of the Merciful Crown	Posted - 2011.05.14 22:53:00 - [113] I was just trying to know if you agree with the orthodox Reclaiming.
Nola Doyle NeuroGEN	Posted - 2011.05.15 06:53:00 - [114] Originally by: Lyn Farel The term suppose also makes an assumption of a hypothesis. You are not even trying to understand, just for the sake of evading the argument. blinks ...which is precisely what I indicated you were doing, making an assumption about my perspective on the matter. Do you even understand what you're saying? Dr. Nola J. Doyle Co-CEO, NeuroGEN
Lyn Farel Knighthood of the Merciful Crown	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:32:00 - [115] Edited by: Lyn Farel on 15/05/2011 10:32:54 Originally by: Nola Doyle Originally by: Lyn Farel The term suppose also makes an assumption of a hypothesis. You are not even trying to understand, just for the sake of evading the argument. blinks ...which is precisely what I indicated you were doing, making an assumption about my perspective on the matter. Do you even understand what you're saying? I was honestly wondering the same thing about you. This is pointless and unproductive.

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