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Ghoest
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Posted - 2011.05.09 01:58:00 -
[1]
I guess plex really was the slippery slope that people warned of when it was introduced.
What they are now doing is selling isk at the same time they are adding measures to combat inflation.
Think about that. They are doing something causes inflation so they can make more real life money and at the same time they modifying game play to fight this inflation.
Were getting screwed. They are now directly punishing people who dont buy extra isk from them.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Brock Nelson
Caldari
T2 Technologies Unlimited
SRS.
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Posted - 2011.05.09 02:08:00 -
[2]
u mad bro?
Investor Relation | BSAC SE Listing |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.05.09 02:20:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Ghoest
What they are now doing
What are they doing NOW exactly again ?
How exactly did you get to THAT from the "we might or might not intervene in the PLEX market" comment at the economy presentation during FanFest ?
Did some hidden devblog come up that only you can see ? Did some dev post about it recently admitting it ? Do you have any actual example of a CCP run account either massively buying or selling PLEX ? Or even just of NPC orders doing pretty much the same thing ?
You know, as opposed to just hearsay and speculation, basically F.U.D. ?
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2011.05.09 03:26:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Ghoest on 09/05/2011 03:26:35
How would anyone have an example?
This is like if you went in to a casino and they said - we have decided we might have the house cheat tonight.
Then Some on like Akita would say "Its ok they gave themselves permission to cheat but we cant tell."
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Brock Nelson
Caldari
T2 Technologies Unlimited
SRS.
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Posted - 2011.05.09 04:01:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Brock Nelson on 09/05/2011 04:02:39
I think the approach you're taking regarding this situation is eerily similar to the "tinfoil hat" approach.
There's nothing more from CCP regarding how they are going to influence the price of plex. The only thing we have gotten from them is "we may or may not influence the price of plex" during the fanfest.
Unless we have something solid from them such as a devblog or direct quote on what direction and how it is to be achieved, I don't think there's anything more to discuss.
Investor Relation | BSAC SE Listing |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.05.09 07:24:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Akita T on 09/05/2011 07:29:55
Originally by: Ghoest
This is like if you went in to a casino and they said - we have decided we might have the house cheat tonight.
The house doesn't need to cheat in most cases, it has the house advantage of the law of large numbers on its side.
Although, for some cases, the house DOES cheat, and it's quite in the open - the "no card counting or you're out" policy, for instance.
Likewise, CCP doesn't really need to do anything fishy.
The mere MENTION of the fact that they MIGHT intervene if something odd is going on should be sufficient to prevent much too wild swings or excessive speculation.
Then again, it's also more than enough for such tinfoilhattery attacks like yours, so I guess in the grand scheme of things it's at best a wash.
You know what the FUNNIEST part actually is ?
That your "worrying" reasoning would only work for the case in which PLEX prices end up going TOO LOW... which is very much not even close to the case.
If anything, CCP might be regarding the current price a tad bit too high (reducing the incentive to RMT, but also reducing the number of PLEX-supported subs), in which case, the stabilizing effect would be achieved by BUYING ISK AND SELLING PLEX, which is basically the same as taking in the Monopoly money you have yourself printed and paying out real cash, which they should want to avoid as much as humanly possible.
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Martosh Toma
Gallente
Fraction Investment
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Posted - 2011.05.09 08:03:00 -
[7]
I admit I have not been following the plex market in detail.
But asuming ccp finds the current price too high and they wished to lower it,
How much impact would there be on the market if the 'few' (100+) destroyed plexes were recreated and sold on the jita market?
(I doubt ccp would create new isk or new plex, but respawning a destroyed item seems possible. Especially as this would turn item destruction on this specific item into an isk sink and reduce complaints about destroyed plex)
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Doeko
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Posted - 2011.05.09 09:50:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Doeko on 09/05/2011 09:51:22
As CCP has indicated to perhaps use the PLEX market in a central bank sort of way, it is not a stretch that they could create both PLEX and ISK from thin air. Of course creating PLEX from thin air is basically a liability for CCP because obviously every PLEX created implicitly costs them $15 in lost revenue.
Either way, if enough PLEX are destroyed in-game this would not affect their bottom line at all and they can artificially affect the money supply in EVE this way quite easily (by storing the ISK they received from the sales).
There is really no difference between creating PLEX that were originally destroyed, creating PLEX in return for $15 or creating PLEX arbitrarily so I don't see why it would have anything to do with the PLEX that were destroyed.
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clixor
Celluloid Gurus
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Posted - 2011.05.09 10:10:00 -
[9]
The amount of destroyed PLEX cant be more than marginal as there isn't any reason the transport them (for consumption at least). Fact of the matter is that it's just to easy to make isk after the initial learning/time curve.
Also we seem to have hit a rather stable price level for PLEX, i doubt CCP will have intervening in the market high on their priority list.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2011.05.09 11:47:00 -
[10]
You guys are being naive.
CCP has clearly laid and has announced that THEY HAVE GIVEN THEMSELVES PERMISSION to do sell sell isk in a way that is very hard to observe with out inside information.
And you are cool with this.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Martosh Toma
Gallente
Fraction Investment
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Posted - 2011.05.09 12:11:00 -
[11]
But Ghoest, If they want to go for untraceble and maximized returns they could simply run their own isk selling company on the side and profit twice.
(first on selling you the isk 'illegally' and then taking the isk from you with a warning forcing you to buy your isk again trough plex)
They already have the contacts they'd need for setting up something like that.
But I find it unlikely, It may seem like a way to easy money to you, but ccp needs all the credibilty they have. And, something that may even be stranger to you, they actually care about eve.
Even mere believeble hints of unfairness would cost them too many customers. Just remember the outcry on some things best left in the past, involving unfair actions by dev's. Or more recent the backlash when they arteficially capped systems or kept them 'sort of' running longer for data on lag.
I think you are seeing ghosts, Ghoest
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2011.05.09 14:09:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Martosh Toma
But Ghoest, If they want to go for untraceble and maximized returns they could simply run their own isk selling company on the side and profit twice.
(first on selling you the isk 'illegally' and then taking the isk from you with a warning forcing you to buy your isk again trough plex)
They already have the contacts they'd need for setting up something like that.
But I find it unlikely, It may seem like a way to easy money to you, but ccp needs all the credibilty they have. And, something that may even be stranger to you, they actually care about eve.
Even mere believeble hints of unfairness would cost them too many customers. Just remember the outcry on some things best left in the past, involving unfair actions by dev's. Or more recent the backlash when they arteficially capped systems or kept them 'sort of' running longer for data on lag.
I think you are seeing ghosts, Ghoest
NO
What you say they "could" do would be illegal as it constitutes fraud. It would only take one unhappy exemploee to then destroy their business.
What they have said on the other is completely legal - if for no other reason than they announced it.
The ignorance here astounds me. CCP has come up with a totally legit way to sell isk, with out doing directly and they can get away with it because gamers are too stupid/naive to follow the money.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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egola
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.05.09 14:11:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Ghoest
You guys are being naive.
CCP has clearly laid and has announced that THEY HAVE GIVEN THEMSELVES PERMISSION to do sell sell isk in a way that is very hard to observe with out inside information.
And you are cool with this.
and Osama's death was faked, while the government death panels are hounding your every step to die, yes we get it. you're EVE's Alex Jones. WE'RE ALL SHEEPLE!
you're acting as if you had some hard evidence of wrong doing when its all just speculation and conjecture.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2011.05.09 14:39:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Ghoest on 09/05/2011 14:40:09
Edited by: Ghoest on 09/05/2011 14:39:41
Originally by: egola
Edited by: egola on 09/05/2011 14:23:44
Originally by: Ghoest
You guys are being naive.
CCP has clearly laid and has announced that THEY HAVE GIVEN THEMSELVES PERMISSION to do sell sell isk in a way that is very hard to observe with out inside information.
And you are cool with this.
and Osama's death was faked, while the government death panels are hounding your every step to die, yes we get it. you're EVE's Alex Jones. WE'RE ALL SHEEPLE!
you're acting as if you had some hard evidence of wrong doing when its all just speculation and conjecture.
edit: please alex jones, enlighten us the methods they could be using as opposed to saying that they're doing SOMETHING.
Im not suggesting anyone "lied."
Im saying they point blank told us they have given themselves permission to sell isk.
There is NO "conspiracy theory" here. They clearly stated what they consider acceptable.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Khanid Voltar
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Posted - 2011.05.09 14:46:00 -
[15]
This thread is a waste of pixels.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.05.09 15:24:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Ghoest
Im saying they point blank told us they have given themselves permission to sell isk.
And ? The only problem with ISK selling sites is that CCP doesn't profit from it, quite the contrary.
I would have no problems with CCP selling ISK openly, as long as the rate of exchange would be below what most legitimate players would already jump at the occasion to sell for PLEX so they don't have to pay cash. And "selling ISK" by buying PLEX if PLEX price in ISK drops too much is exactly that.
The "problem" is that PLEX prices ARE NOT "too low" right now, they are "too high". And when they are too high, "selling ISK // buying PLEX" is NOT the solution, the reverse is ("buying ISK // selling PLEX"), which they should want to avoid as much as possible, because it is equivalent to giving out FREE SUBSCRIPTION TIME.
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2011.05.09 15:36:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Ghoest
Im saying they point blank told us they have given themselves permission to sell isk.
And ? The only problem with ISK selling sites is that CCP doesn't profit from it, quite the contrary.
I would have no problems with CCP selling ISK openly, as long as the rate of exchange would be below what most legitimate players would already jump at the occasion to sell for PLEX so they don't have to pay cash. And "selling ISK" by buying PLEX if PLEX price in ISK drops too much is exactly that.
The "problem" is that PLEX prices ARE NOT "too low" right now, they are "too high". And when they are too high, "selling ISK // buying PLEX" is NOT the solution, the reverse is ("buying ISK // selling PLEX"), which they should want to avoid as much as possible, because it is equivalent to giving out FREE SUBSCRIPTION TIME.
Well this is the first sensible response in this thread.
You dont have a problem with them selling isk. That is at least valid position.
I on the other hand have a huge issue with them selling isk. It totally gives up on the ideal of a fair playing with in the game.
Yes people bot - but that is something CCP always tried to stop.
Beyond the botting all isk/goods acquired has required an effort by someone in the game - buying plex always required that someone in game do the work which maintained a level of fairness for those of us who treat it like a game.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.05.09 15:44:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ghoest
You don't have a problem with them selling isk. That is at least valid position.
I don't have a problem with them selling ISK under certain very specific circumstances. Those circumstances being "at a very poor RL to ISK exchange rate", or at least noticeably worse than what actual players would accept.
Quote:
I on the other hand have a huge issue with them selling isk. It totally gives up on the ideal of a fair playing with in the game.[...]all isk/goods acquired has required an effort by someone in the game - buying plex always required that someone in game do the work which maintained a level of fairness for those of us who treat it like a game.
As long as the specific circumstances mentioned above would be the only ones where CCP actually ends up "selling ISK" (and ideally, those circumstances would almost never actually end up "triggering"), not much would change, if anything.
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.09 16:00:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Ghoest
What they are now doing is selling isk at the same time they are adding measures to combat inflation.
Think about that. They are doing something causes inflation so they can make more real life money and at the same time they modifying game play to fight this inflation.
Err wait. Where does the isk come from to buy the PLEX? PLEX doesn't increase the amount of isk in Eve because the isk comes from other in-game sources.
Plus the price of PLEX is determined by the players who will take inflation into account.
However, if CCP starts *buying* PLEX with (invisible) NPC style buy orders, then that would create isk and cause inflation.
Even then, if the (invisible) NPC PLEX buy orders were actually funded by the NPC corp tax... then that wouldn't directly cause inflation (but it would remove an isk sink.)
-----
"Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you!
-- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2011.05.09 16:46:00 -
[20]
Originally by: stoicfaux
Err wait. Where does the isk come from to buy the PLEX? PLEX doesn't increase the amount of isk in Eve because the isk comes from other in-game sources.
Plus the price of PLEX is determined by the players who will take inflation into account.
However, if CCP starts *buying* PLEX with (invisible) NPC style buy orders, then that would create isk and cause inflation.
Even then, if the (invisible) NPC PLEX buy orders were actually funded by the NPC corp tax... then that wouldn't directly cause inflation (but it would remove an isk sink.)
And that was the worst post yet.
Half of it was irrelevant information we already know and half of it was irrelevant fabrication.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2011.05.09 16:49:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 09/05/2011 16:06:39
Originally by: Ghoest
You don't have a problem with them selling isk. That is at least valid position.
I don't have a problem with them selling ISK under certain very specific circumstances. Those circumstances being "at a very poor RL to ISK exchange rate", or at least noticeably worse than what actual players would accept.
Quote:
I on the other hand have a huge issue with them selling isk. It totally gives up on the ideal of a fair playing with in the game.[...]all isk/goods acquired has required an effort by someone in the game - buying plex always required that someone in game do the work which maintained a level of fairness for those of us who treat it like a game.
As long as the specific circumstances mentioned above would be the only ones where CCP actually ends up "selling ISK" (and ideally, those circumstances would almost never actually end up "triggering"), not much would change, if anything.
PRACTICAL EXAMPLES:
If PLEX price would plummet, say, below 150 mil ISK/unit (after the volume transacted would have already swelled noticeably due to many, many people adopting it as a payment method), CCP decides that this level is "too low" and starts putting up "stealth NPC" PLEX buy orders at 150 mil ISK/unit. In most cases, those bottom support orders would never actually get processed, as players would put up 150,000,000.01 ISK or higher buy orders most of the time, and only when all of those would end up filled and non-replaced would the CCP orders actually process.
This is the same as CCP selling ISK at 150 mil per 17.5$ and is a very unlikely scenario (the PLEX price plummeting so low to begin with, that is).
If PLEX prices would skyrocket, say, above 600 mil ISK/unit (after the volume transacted would start reducing a lot, as more and more simply start to quit playing because they can't afford to pay cash and no longer can afford to shell out so much ISK), CCP decides that this level is "too high" and starts putting up "stealth NPC" PLEX sell orders at 600 mil ISK/unit. In most cases, those top limiting orders would never actually get processed, as players would put up 599,999,999.99 ISK or lower sell orders most of the time, and only when all of those would end up cleaned and not replaced would the CCP orders actually process.
This is the same as CCP _BUYING_ ISK at 600 mil per 17.5$ and is also a somewhat unlikely scenario (PLEX price ever going so high).
Now the only question is, what should those "too low" and "too high" price levels be.
I picked 150 and 600 arbitrarily, as being below what most would consider a bargain (150) and above what most would consider as too much (600), and as such, unlikely to actually end up near those price levels (or at least, not stick around there too long).
The only "legitimate worry" would be in case CCP decides the "desirable" price interval to be somewhere outside what most players would consider it to be... and CCP isn't saying a peep about their desired price levels.
For all we know they might be 300 and 450 mil instead of 150 and 600. Or worse, 350 and 400.
Now, THAT, that you can worry about.
Youre entire argument is that you dont think CCP will try to make RL money out a mechanism perfectly designed to legally make RL money.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.05.09 17:15:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Ghoest
Your entire argument is that you dont think CCP will try to make RL money out a mechanism perfectly designed to legally make RL money.
My entire argument is that CCP already makes a lot of RL money by allowing players to sell PLEX for ISK, and it is in their best interest to have AS MANY people as possible doing it (as opposed to buying ISK from RMT ops with cash).
People that play the game paying with ISK for PLEX are also very good "word of mouth" advertisers, which makes it a double whammy, financially speaking - they get free publicity and extra cash.
You get those many customers "consuming PLEX" by having PLEX prices be as low as possible.
Buying PLEX with ISK achieves the exact opposite effect. It makes no sense for CCP to want to raise PLEX prices noticeably above their current price level.
To have low PLEX prices, they'd need to SELL PLEX, and buy ISK. It makes no sense for CCP to buy ISK, when they could create as much as they wanted at any given time.
If PLEX prices are high, you'd THINK people are less likely to buy ISK from RMT - but then again, RMT ops will always match prices to be more advantageous (so the only advantage would be that RMTers make less cash per same in-game effort).
However, at the same time, people that used to play (or keep more alts active) will no longer able to do so, and THAT is where CCP is really making the money. The potential income stream from CCP's "ISK sales" would not match the lost revenue stream from lost subscriptions.
Also, the higher the PLEX price goes, it's also more likely for people to actually buy LESS PLEX to sell for ISK, because most people tend to have a "target" (buy ship X, buy fitting Y, etc). Granted, you might also have more people that would choose to buy PLEX, so overall, the current PLEX purchase level might be maintained.
But you'd still have less people playing overall, and the word of mouth would get increasingly negative.
TRUE, CCP could simply be jerks about it, and decide to artificially raise PLEX prices sky-high by "selling ISK" themselves.
But that would mean almost nobody would keep playing by buying PLEX (since fewer and fewer could afford it), and all their extra revenue would have to come from constantly buying PLEX themselves, injecting more and more ISK into the economy.
At the same time, as ISK-for-PLEX becomes an increasingly high ISK source (with less and less actual active accounts), the other in-game ISK sources (and most activities in general) would suffer a decline, and the economy would suffer, because the drive for conflict would keep getting less and less prominent, which would eventually lead to a failure cascade.
CCP would have to be total idiots to really want to do that.
Then again, considering some other recent "failures in logic", I wouldn't completely exclude the possibility.
So, yes, CCP _COULD_ make more RL cash by doing that.
For a very short time.
And in the process, completely screw up their long-term income.
Do you really think they would do that ?
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.09 17:22:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Ghoest
And that was the worst post yet.
Half of it was irrelevant information we already know and half of it was irrelevant fabrication.
You claim in your posts that CCP selling PLEX is going to create inflation. Please explain (small words preferred) on just how CCP selling PLEX going to increase inflation.
tia
-----
"Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you!
-- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.05.09 17:30:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Akita T on 09/05/2011 17:34:17
Originally by: stoicfaux
You claim in your posts that CCP selling PLEX is going to create inflation. Please explain (small words preferred) on just how CCP selling PLEX going to increase inflation.
Dude, that's not what he says. He said if CCP starts BUYING PLEX (i.e. "selling ISK"), that would contribute to inflation.
And about that, he's right - CCP//NPC PLEX buy orders would be an ISK faucet/source.
You even agreed to that in a previous post of yours.
But yeah, Ghoest probably skimmed/ignored the second half of your post, in which you said that much.
He should be more careful what he derides 
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Tehg Rhind
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Posted - 2011.05.09 17:55:00 -
[25]
There are far better ways for CCP to manage the isk/asset/player supply ratios (ie inflation) than through PLEX manipulation. Central banking is necessary (or at least more necessary) in the real world because the government can't control the generation of assets.
In EvE not only can CCP control the generation of assets, it can also control the generation of ISK directly (ie non zero sum game).
PLEX as a central bank tool is a bad idea because PLEX prices are a monitoring tool of inflation (dependant) not an input in it (independant.). It's true that modifying the PLEX market would temporarily band-aid the problem, but without adjusting the actual ISK/Asset sinks and faucets it would only be a symptomatic cure.
And it's clear that at least some of CCP understands this. The anom changes are the kind of thing that an EvE central bank should do. Other things like reducing mission ISK rewards and asset drops or reducing mineral generation through mining will also fix this.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2011.05.09 18:04:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Ghoest on 09/05/2011 18:05:49
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 09/05/2011 17:39:13
big post
They dont have to destroy anything if they do it gradually and simultaneously control inflation(which they just announced they were working on mechanisms for.)
All they have to do is slightly push effective inflation down so its flirting with deflation. Then they start buying isk slowly - nominally to prop up the price. This creates an isk faucet to counter potential deflation.
Then its just long term balancing job where CCP keeps slowly increasing the amount plex they buy back in the game, they can back off any time they feel its a problem.
I dont see this as tricky at all. It seems like fairly obvious move after you announce both anti-inflation measures and the ability to inject cash into the economy(ie sell isk.)
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.05.09 18:17:00 -
[27]
It's not about inflation/deflation, it's about number of accounts paid for with PLEX vs number of PLEX CCP would purchase for ISK.
The more PLEX they purchase with ISK, the higher the PLEX price is likely to go, which means less accounts paid for with PLEX, so overall, financially speaking, it's a wash.
So why bother ?
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.09 18:46:00 -
[28]
Thanks for clarifying that.
Ghoest,
Some of us have babies. We don't get much sleep. Please be a bit more explicit/clear in the future.
To get back on topic, every conspiracy needs a reason for the conspiracy to exist. You can't suck the reader in without a good hook.
If PLEX are a promise to provide 30 days of game time, how does CCP record that on the accounting books? As a liability, no?
If CCP needs more money to fund WoD (over budget, there's trouble getting additional investor money due to slipping delivery dates, etc.) then CCP would need to make the books look good and fast. Encouraging people to sell their PLEX asap would help fulfill that goal.
Buying PLEX at above market prices would covertly encourage folks to sell the PLEX, which gets the PLEX off the books, and doesn't create a public stink that future investors would find out about. Eve's cash flow (or Eve itself) would be put up as collateral.
When you consider the reduction in development resources, the technology demo that is Captain's Quarters, the alpha testing of the WoD forum software (aka the new Eve forums,) and that features such as Incursions are aimed at keeping veteran players subscribed instead of attracting new players, it's obvious that CCP no longer cares about the long term future of Eve.
So you heard it here first folks, WoD is in financial trouble and CCP is going to buy PLEX covertly in order to raise investor money to keep funding WoD. This deliberate systemic short term wholesale child-pimping of the Eve cash cow is the final proof that Eve really is dying and that CCP has given up on the game.
A moment of silence please as CCP strip mines not only the players' wallets but also the isk sellers' income streams.
I for one, welcome our new WoD overlords.
edit: couldn't be bothered to add massive air quotes tags around appropriate text.
-----
"Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you!
-- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.05.09 18:54:00 -
[29]
Originally by: stoicfaux
couldn't be bothered to add massive air quotes tags around appropriate text
Only vaguely related.
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.09 19:29:00 -
[30]
Edited by: stoicfaux on 09/05/2011 19:29:46
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: stoicfaux
couldn't be bothered to add massive air quotes tags around appropriate text
Only vaguely related.
Uhm, you do realize that I only added the "massive air quotes" comment to trick the forum moderators into believing that my post was just harmless kookery?
I've been in a few startups. You wouldn't believe the accounting quackery I've seen. Assets walking off on the shoulders of the office manager. I watched negative cash-flow glitter black in the "public" set of books near the CEO's office safe. All those numbers seen as true in time... like rumors on the internet... Time to cash out...
-----
"Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you!
-- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Claire Voyant
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Posted - 2011.05.09 19:51:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Tehg Rhind
There are far better ways for CCP to manage the isk/asset/player supply ratios (ie inflation) than through PLEX manipulation. Central banking is necessary (or at least more necessary) in the real world because the government can't control the generation of assets.
In EvE not only can CCP control the generation of assets, it can also control the generation of ISK directly (ie non zero sum game).
PLEX as a central bank tool is a bad idea because PLEX prices are a monitoring tool of inflation (dependant) not an input in it (independant.). It's true that modifying the PLEX market would temporarily band-aid the problem, but without adjusting the actual ISK/Asset sinks and faucets it would only be a symptomatic cure.
And it's clear that at least some of CCP understands this. The anom changes are the kind of thing that an EvE central bank should do. Other things like reducing mission ISK rewards and asset drops or reducing mineral generation through mining will also fix this.
I am somewhat amazed that I seem to be the only one who figured out what Dr. E was hinting at, even with all the clues he dropped.
Yes, CCP sets the rules just like the government writes the laws. But legislation and patches are slow and unwieldy methods for stabilizing an economy. That's why Dr. E feels the need for an Eve central bank.
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Cosmoes
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.05.09 20:39:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Akita T
REAlLY long post with yellow text and examples about CCP stopping prices getting too high/low that was eating up my character count.
First from what I read in the QEN that isn't what this was design for. They said they didn't have a specific price target for plex in mind. Maybe there is other stuff saying they do and I've missed it, and even if it wasn't their original intention I can see them doing this eventually.
From what I understand it's more aimed at stopping sudden plex drops/rises. Not something I like (I'd enjoy the chaos of a market crash) but I can understand wanting to do this and me being outvoted. It may also be used for CCP to try and fiddle with inflation/deflation not sure about this though.
The potential for CCP directly selling isk is something I strongly despise mostly on points of principle rather than on fear of what will actually come from it or fear of it being rampant. Selling game time is perfetly fine on the other hand (another isk sink is always nice) I don't see CCP doing this too much for obvious reasons.
While I find it highly unlikely that CCP would go and massivly exploit this mechanic, Eve is full of fear and paranoia. I can already see threads down the line going something like "I sold my plex to CCP in Jita, they are mass buying all plex !!1!!one!1!". The reasons for not wanting to warn us when they are going to do this is also obvious, releasing limited data afterwards is what I'm worried about.
Frankly I think it would put a fair few minds at eve if either a full list of data on the plex was released in QENs so ppl can see what is happening. Or if I'm missing something and there is a reason for not wanting to do this at least let the CSM see this sort of data.
-------------------
piccy |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.05.09 20:58:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Cosmoes
[...]They said they didn't have a specific price target for plex in mind. [...] From what I understand it's more aimed at stopping sudden plex drops/rises.
They might not have specific price levels in mind YET, and yes, they probably just wish to curb sudden fluctuations, but sooner or later they'd either have to settle on some specific prices or at least a specific maximum fluctuation levels, they can't just go with "gut feeling" and intervene whenever the heck they feel like it.
Either way, the most logical scenario is that they thought merely the statement they are prepared to take measures to stabilize the PLEX market should have enough of a stabilizing effect on it, thus removing the need to ever actually do it.
Meh, you never know.
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Claire Voyant
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Posted - 2011.05.09 21:27:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Cosmoes
Frankly I think it would put a fair few minds at eve if either a full list of data on the plex was released in QENs so ppl can see what is happening.
Dr. E said he would release the information after the fact in the QEN. I'm not sure I would expect something that would satisfy an accountant, but I'm sure we can expect a pretty graph that might have some discernible data. And of course CSM meets with Dr. E so they might be able to get more info out of him.
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Claire Voyant
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Posted - 2011.05.09 21:43:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Akita T
They might not have specific price levels in mind YET, and yes, they probably just wish to curb sudden fluctuations, but sooner or later they'd either have to settle on some specific prices or at least a specific maximum fluctuation levels, they can't just go with "gut feeling" and intervene whenever the heck they feel like it.
Remember Dr. E has access to inside information. He knows how many GTCs are being converted into PLEX, he knows how many PLEX are being applied to game time, and he knows the inventory of unused PLEX. You can assume he can get this information on at least a daily basis. In other words, he can tell whether PLEX prices are falling because people are buying GTCs or because investors and/or speculators are dumping inventory out of fear and/or an isk crunch. In the first instance there is no need to intervene. In the second, a timely intervention would easily boost confidence and prevent a crash.
Of course, the intervention would most likely take the form of buy orders at a fixed price, but that doesn't mean he has a magic number. Subsequent interventions could easily take place at higher or lower numbers due to differing circumstances.
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.09 21:48:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Cosmoes
From what I understand it's more aimed at stopping sudden plex drops/rises. Not something I like (I'd enjoy the chaos of a market crash) but I can understand wanting to do this and me being outvoted. It may also be used for CCP to try and fiddle with inflation/deflation not sure about this though.
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q4-2010.pdf
Quote:
With a growing PLEX market (PLEX is the item with the highest trade value on the EVE market on any given day) and its function of facilitating the exchange of game time for ISK, players have become concerned about PLEX prices. PLEX is sold on an open market in a free exchange between players, just like most other items in EVE Online. Our core design principle of being hands-off from these markets also applies to the PLEX market. However, due to its complex function and potential impact on the velocity of money supply, the Central Bank might intervene in the PLEX market in order to curb inflation or avoid sudden deflation in the EVE economy. All such action would not be announced beforehand and only limited information would become public in the quarter after actions have been taken. These actions would aim at stabilization of the PLEX market and do not have a specific price target for PLEX or a specific inflation target for prices in EVE.
I'll bite. If PLEX is freely traded and in large quantities (i.e. free market,) how could it cause inflation or deflation bad enough to warrant CCP intervention?
Is there some concern about some RMT company retiring from Eve and tanking the entire PLEX market by flooding it with undervalued PLEX in order to liquidate their isk stocks for real money? Or a JumpGate Evoution executive buying "all" of the PLEX and then reselling them at a higher price in order to encourage people to quit Even and play Jumpgate?
-----
"Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you!
-- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Fleshfiend
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Posted - 2011.05.09 21:49:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Fleshfiend on 09/05/2011 21:53:08
Whoops mispost
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Mobius Fierce
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Posted - 2011.05.10 00:24:00 -
[38]
CCP has been selling ISK since the game began. The only difference is you used to have to pay for a subscription and do in game actions. Now you have the option to pay even more and do less in game actions. But the concept is the same: CCP gets real money, you get fake money.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.05.10 00:48:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Mobius Fierce
concept is the same: CCP gets real money, you get fake money
And that's different from any other MMO out there... how exactly ? 
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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RutilusUnus
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Posted - 2011.05.10 02:16:00 -
[40]
Edited by: RutilusUnus on 10/05/2011 02:16:46
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Ghoest
What they are now doing
What are they doing NOW exactly again ?
How exactly did you get to THAT from the "we might or might not intervene in the PLEX market" comment at the economy presentation during FanFest ?
Did some hidden devblog come up that only you can see ? Did some dev post about it recently admitting it ? Do you have any actual example of a CCP run account either massively buying or selling PLEX ? Or even just of NPC orders doing pretty much the same thing ?
You know, as opposed to just hearsay and speculation, basically F.U.D. ?
I don't have the data but I trade in Verge Vendor quite often and trade in plex sometimes. I sometimes pull out when the margins aren't good. Anyways...I've seen, on multiple occasions how there will be dozens of orders for plex and then all of a sudden they are gone and the buy price drops all the way to 300 million, when only hours before it was 355 million. Yes someone could be just selling a massive amount of plex at one moment, or canceling their orders to drive down the price. But it was just a strange thing that all of a sudden these dozens of orders were gone and I can't say whether or not it's CCP intervening in the market or not. That's just my observation...
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.05.10 02:44:00 -
[41]
And my brother used to more or less regularly end up buying a PLEX or two per month at prices as low as 100 mil ISK in low-traffic regions using regional buy orders.
That's just people being lazy as hell (and, dare I say, stupid) and accepting whatever price they find locally because they need the ISK fast.
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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RutilusUnus
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Posted - 2011.05.10 02:55:00 -
[42]
Edited by: RutilusUnus on 10/05/2011 02:55:50
Originally by: Akita T
And my brother used to more or less regularly end up buying a PLEX or two per month at prices as low as 100 mil ISK in low-traffic regions using regional buy orders.
That's just people being lazy as hell (and, dare I say, stupid) and accepting whatever price they find locally because they need the ISK fast.
Yes I know people are stupid and accept whatever price that is available. That is one of the ways I make a living haha. But this wasn't just a few orders being filled, it was dozens of orders being filled with each order having roughly a couple plex per order. Trust me I thought it was someone just being stupid at first but it just seems like way too many plex for that. And the couple of times this has happened, they stopped selling plex when the orders bottomed out at 300 million.
It was just a strange occurrence, that's all.
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Claire Voyant
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Posted - 2011.05.10 03:47:00 -
[43]
Originally by: stoicfaux
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q4-2010.pdf
Quote:
With a growing PLEX market (PLEX is the item with the highest trade value on the EVE market on any given day) and its function of facilitating the exchange of game time for ISK, players have become concerned about PLEX prices. PLEX is sold on an open market in a free exchange between players, just like most other items in EVE Online. Our core design principle of being hands-off from these markets also applies to the PLEX market. However, due to its complex function and potential impact on the velocity of money supply, the Central Bank might intervene in the PLEX market in order to curb inflation or avoid sudden deflation in the EVE economy. All such action would not be announced beforehand and only limited information would become public in the quarter after actions have been taken. These actions would aim at stabilization of the PLEX market and do not have a specific price target for PLEX or a specific inflation target for prices in EVE.
I'll bite. If PLEX is freely traded and in large quantities (i.e. free market,) how could it cause inflation or deflation bad enough to warrant CCP intervention?
Good point. In my opinion the talk about velocity, inflation, and deflation in the quote above is mostly mumbo-jumbo. I think the key to understanding this is to look at what happened with Incursion when they removed the learning skills. Players suddenly had millions of unallocated skill points and a large number of them went out and bought capital ship skill books. The sudden (and apparently unintended) isk sink caused a significant drop in the amount of isk in the game. This happened to coincide with the patch related influx of PLEX from GTCs. These two events caused a crash in the PLEX market which resulted in a loss of confidence in PLEX as a safe investment.
Now imagine "Eve Central Bank" stepping in at this point and buying up PLEX at a depressed price and injecting isk into the economy, at least temporarily.
Now there are A LOT of issues with this, mostly along the lines of why would CCP need to intervene in a free market and take away a trader's god given right to profit on other peoples pain. But I think most of the arguments for intervention are based on the the idea that it is better for the game if short-term disruptions can be minimized. Dr. E is not trying to push the rock back up the hill, but merely limit the damage as it rolls down.
The important point to note is that the events that initiated the crisis were in themselves CCP interventions. Patches are obvious game changers. CCP publicity to attract new players with expansions is a less obvious one. Eve is nothing like a free market no matter how much Dr. E pays lip service to the idea. The route to becoming filthy rich in Eve is to learn how the actions CCP routinely makes will effect the market and how to profit from them.
What Dr. E's announcement really means for the market is the true challenge.
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Rasz Lin
Caldari
Uitraan Diversified Holdings Incorporated
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Posted - 2011.05.10 05:26:00 -
[44]
PLEX looks like crap latelly, 4-6 plexes per region on sell orders. Doesnt look like hoarding, mor like CCP removing PLEXes from the market to encourage GTC sales.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2011.05.10 12:45:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Ghoest on 10/05/2011 12:45:43
Akita your analysis of this is flawed. Think about it.
If CCP keeps buying the plex off the market at above natural market prices in game - people will still keep buying the plex from CCP in real life, in fact it will encourage people to buy more in real life.
You have made something simple and obvious a bit too complicated in your mind and you have tricked yourself.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.05.10 14:11:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Ghoest
Akita your analysis of this is flawed. Think about it.
If CCP keeps buying the plex off the market at above natural market prices in game - people will still keep buying the plex from CCP in real life, in fact it will encourage people to buy more in real life.
You have made something simple and obvious a bit too complicated in your mind and you have tricked yourself.
Seriously, it's like you're selectively reading about a third or at best half of what people write.
What you bring up as an "issue", I've already acknowledged, and reasoned taking it into consideration too.
When PLEX prices are higher, IN GENERAL, each individual person selling PLEX for ISK will tend to exchange less units of it on average (because people generally tend to have a target ISK value, not a target RL cash spent value), while getting an increase in number of people that do it, so overall, it MIGHT remain mostly the same or even go up a bit... however, at the same time, you get a lot of people leaving because they can no longer afford to buy PLEX to keep the account active (or at least reduce number of accounts owned), reducing word of mouth publicity (or getting more and more BAD word of mouth publicity) and increasingly dissatisfied customers (complaining they don't really have a choice but to keep selling PLEX) so you'd have to sell more and more ISK for PLEX to maintain the same level of RL cash income, while prices in-game tend to go higher and higher in an inflationary spiral (more ISK from PLEX, less goods because nobody's working except bots, lather, rinse, repeat) and you end up with a screwed up economy, a heavily reduced population base, and in the end, no matter how much you drive PLEX prices up, you're screwed.
TL;DR - failure cascade.
_
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2011.05.10 14:28:00 -
[47]
But thats a moot point if your not pushing plex costs higher than they were.
CCP could look at their data and say "At around 600 mill we have x number(or %) of customers willing to buy plex, at 500 mill y number etc."
They chart it and decide what highest viable number is before they have a sharp decline.
Then they set a target just little lower than the inflection point.
And finally CCP adjusts inflation to compensate for the isk being injected.
This isnt complicated.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2011.05.10 14:30:00 -
[48]
Although it does occur to me that CCP might not have been smart enough to figure this out and now I have explained it to them.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Claire Voyant
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Posted - 2011.05.10 14:54:00 -
[49]
Way to step up the crazy. Both of you.
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Arancar Australis
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Posted - 2011.05.10 15:07:00 -
[50]
Originally by: stoicfaux
Edited by: stoicfaux on 09/05/2011 19:29:46
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: stoicfaux
couldn't be bothered to add massive air quotes tags around appropriate text
Only vaguely related.
Uhm, you do realize that I only added the "massive air quotes" comment to trick the forum moderators into believing that my post was just harmless kookery?
I've been in a few startups. You wouldn't believe the accounting quackery I've seen. Assets walking off on the shoulders of the office manager. I watched negative cash-flow glitter black in the "public" set of books near the CEO's office safe. All those numbers seen as true in time... like rumors on the internet... Time to cash out...
Nice use of the Bladerunner monologue 
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Tehg Rhind
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Posted - 2011.05.10 15:25:00 -
[51]
@Claire
I think I understand what you mean. You're saying that modifications to the underlying Asset/Isk flows in game have too slow of a response time to be useful in some cases, and Plex manipulation would give a faster response?
That being the case (which makes sense) it's still true that the underlying causes of inflation/deflation are the Isk/asset sinks. Plex manip will change the inflation/deflation only as long as they manipulate it.
What this means to me is that plex manip could be used by CCP in 2 places:
1) if ccp introduces a change to the Isk/asset flow they can manip plex to get an immediate response while they wait for the long term response. This would only be necessary if they let the inflation/deflation get so far out of control that they needed a quick response.
2) plex manipulation can be used to stabilize the Plex market in cases where speculation has moved prices too far in one direction or the other.
Long term plex manipulation by ccp to maintain a different level of inflation/deflation seems unlikely as it would be prohibitively expensive to CCP. W/ >1k daily traded volume you are looking at a monthly cost in the tens of thousands of dollars (if generating plex). If they are removing plex it doesn't cost them much, but it still doesn't change the equilibrium.
It kind of makes me think of when you pull something so you can put a proper support in place to hold it there. Until you put in the support the system will begin to return to equilibrium when you stop pulling it.
Also, thanks to this thread I have made a killing on the recent spike in tinfoil prices, so that's cool.
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Claire Voyant
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Posted - 2011.05.10 16:11:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Tehg Rhind
I think I understand what you mean. You're saying that modifications to the underlying Asset/Isk flows in game have too slow of a response time to be useful in some cases, and Plex manipulation would give a faster response?
That being the case (which makes sense) it's still true that the underlying causes of inflation/deflation are the Isk/asset sinks. Plex manip will change the inflation/deflation only as long as they manipulate it.
Yes, but I think manipulation is the wrong word. Manipulators destabilize a market by pushing it out of equilibrium to profit off of temporary price swings. What Dr. E talked about was the opposite, stabilizing PLEX prices by nudging them back towards equilibrium.
Originally by: Tehg Rhind
What this means to me is that plex manip could be used by CCP in 2 places:
1) if ccp introduces a change to the Isk/asset flow they can manip plex to get an immediate response while they wait for the long term response. This would only be necessary if they let the inflation/deflation get so far out of control that they needed a quick response.
Again, I was thinking of the opposite. Imagine CCP introduces a new class of capital ships with a set of new skill books and new BPOs all with multi-billion isk price tags. This would obviously create a huge isk sink which is something the good doctor dearly wants. The problem is that the mad rush to acquire those new goodies would suck huge amounts of isk out the economy. If this occurs at the same time as an expansion (well, duh!) people converting GTCs to PLEX might have a hard time getting a decent price for their PLEX and might be forced to turn to out of game isk sellers.
The solution is to step in and buy up those PLEX at cheap prices and inject isk into the game. It is in effect a shock absorber. You create a huge isk sink on one hand and then open the isk faucet on the other to temper the effect. When things settle down, you can sell off the PLEX without crashing prices. Of course the conspiracy theorists ignore that last step because it doesn't fit in with their world view.
Originally by: Tehg Rhind
2) plex manipulation can be used to stabilize the Plex market in cases where speculation has moved prices too far in one direction or the other.
True, but I don't see it happening. That would be Dr. E playing in our sandbox.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2011.05.10 16:24:00 -
[53]
Ummm CCP has never suggested they would keep track and sell what they buy later.
If you dont say your going to do something, and doing it doesnt help you - youre probably not going to do it.
It looks likr the CCP apologists are making up outlandish theories.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Tutskii
|
Posted - 2011.05.10 16:44:00 -
[54]
Is there a reason CCP would sell PLEX they bought with in game money as opposed to wishing it away?
Because if there is, other than random "might be the right thing" ethereals, I can't see it.
In fact the only statements I seem to see is that to them PLEX is an in game item like any other. Game item that for economic reasons they are unlikely to create in large scale (I can see a dev handing out plex to his friends for play time), but that there is no economic reason not to discreetly destroy.
Fly me to the moon and let me play amongst the stars.. let me see what spring is like on Jupiter and Mars.. |
Claire Voyant
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Posted - 2011.05.10 17:23:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Claire Voyant on 10/05/2011 17:24:42
Originally by: Ghoest
Ummm CCP has never suggested they would keep track and sell what they buy later.
"...the Central Bank might intervene in the PLEX market in order to curb inflation or avoid sudden deflation in the EVE economy. All such action would not be announced beforehand and only limited information would become public in the quarter after actions have been taken."
is what Dr. E said. If that information is released and it looks like you are right, I will be the first to raise a stink. I am not saying it couldn't happen. I was one of the first people to warn about it when PLEX were introduced years ago. I also jumped on the bandwagon when news of Dr. E's announcement first hit the livestream. What I am saying is that a careful reading of the announcement and the QEN along with watching and rewatching his presentation has convinced me that he has put some thought into this. I have never been a fan of the good doctor, but I have to give him (or whoever came up with it) props for this particular move.
Do you remember the PLEX for remap stink? CCP got so much crap for even suggesting that they could sell what was at best a marginally useful advantage. Do you seriously think that they would secretly start selling isk but that they would be dumb enough to announce it ahead of time?
Seriously, they have so many options for selling cosmetic items to boost the demand for PLEX that your theory is just plain silly. Yes they can do it, but Dr. E's statement as evidence just doesn't make sense.
Edit: The "crazy" I was referring to was the notion that you gave CCP the idea.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2011.05.10 17:38:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Ghoest on 10/05/2011 17:38:17
Alarm bells should go off any time someone talks about a central bank in a system with no finance.
This whole thing reminds me of this scheme(and as an American I love this scheme but the rest of the world should be upset.)
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2010/12/22/is-the-fed-printing-money/
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Claire Voyant
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Posted - 2011.05.10 18:17:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Ghoest
Alarm bells should go off any time someone talks about a central bank in a system with no finance.
Agreed. It was one of the reasons why I looked into it.
But on the other hand, central banks (in theory) have to balance their books. That would set them aside from every NPC in the game who can simply print money every time you run a mission for them.
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2011.05.10 18:22:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Claire Voyant
But on the other hand, central banks (in theory) have to balance their books.
Did you look at my link?
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Claire Voyant
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Posted - 2011.05.10 19:00:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Claire Voyant on 10/05/2011 19:02:32
Originally by: Ghoest
Originally by: Claire Voyant
But on the other hand, central banks (in theory) have to balance their books.
Did you look at my link?
Yes, and I have even looked at the Federal Reserve's Balance sheet. I can assure you it balances.
Edit: N.B. Balancing the books is not the same as balancing the budget.
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Fred Barbossa
Free Mineral Collective
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Posted - 2011.05.10 19:03:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Claire Voyant
Edited by: Claire Voyant on 10/05/2011 19:02:32
Originally by: Ghoest
Originally by: Claire Voyant
But on the other hand, central banks (in theory) have to balance their books.
Did you look at my link?
Yes, and I have even looked at the Federal Reserve's Balance sheet. I can assure you it balances.
Edit: N.B. Balancing the books is not the same as balancing the budget.
You realize of course than an institution that creates money as part of their way to adjust things doesn't balance right?
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2011.05.10 19:06:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Claire Voyant
Edited by: Claire Voyant on 10/05/2011 19:02:32
Originally by: Ghoest
Originally by: Claire Voyant
But on the other hand, central banks (in theory) have to balance their books.
Did you look at my link?
Yes, and I have even looked at the Federal Reserve's Balance sheet. I can assure you it balances.
Edit: N.B. Balancing the books is not the same as balancing the budget.
Just go away, now you making stuff up. Im done talking to you.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Claire Voyant
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Posted - 2011.05.10 19:24:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Ghoest
now you making stuff up
Thanks for the laugh. You have made my day.
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Tehg Rhind
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Posted - 2011.05.10 19:36:00 -
[63]
@Claire
ok I see what you mean. When CCP does an expansion that temporarilly and dramitically changes the isk/asset flows (and not as an intended consequence like the anom nerf) they may use plex manipulation as a temporary measure to stabilize the markets. The sp/skillbook example is the only one I can think of at the moment....would the initial days of incursion also be one (as massive amounts of assets were destroyed before people could figure it out)?
Large null sec wars could also be a cause too I would guess as they would disrupt asset/isk flow, but it would have to be a massively devastating war.
Interesting.
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Claire Voyant
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Posted - 2011.05.11 11:12:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Tehg Rhind
ok I see what you mean. When CCP does an expansion that temporarilly and dramitically changes the isk/asset flows (and not as an intended consequence like the anom nerf) they may use plex manipulation as a temporary measure to stabilize the markets. The sp/skillbook example is the only one I can think of at the moment....would the initial days of incursion also be one (as massive amounts of assets were destroyed before people could figure it out)?
Large null sec wars could also be a cause too I would guess as they would disrupt asset/isk flow, but it would have to be a massively devastating war.
After unholy rage when there was a mass banning of RMTers there was a sudden increase in the price of trit. CCP responded by changing the respawn rate of veldspar to compensate. The DID NOT dump trit on the market (as far as we know.) That would be something else entirely.
Also, I can't really imagine them doing anything on the market in response to a player created war no matter how massive, but let's play out that scenario. Suppose the Goons turn on their latest allies and there is a massive bloodletting in the North that spills over to all of nullsec. Let's say some null sec alliances need to dig deep into their RL wallets in order to survive and flood the market with PLEX, crashing the market to levels never seen before (e.g. under 200.) Would Dr. E intervene to stabilize PLEX? I think not, but it is an interesting question. I think this fits under the rubric "player actions should have consequences" but you never know what CCP will do.
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Shira Elan
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Posted - 2011.05.12 02:18:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Ghoest
Originally by: Claire Voyant
Edited by: Claire Voyant on 10/05/2011 19:02:32
Originally by: Ghoest
Originally by: Claire Voyant
But on the other hand, central banks (in theory) have to balance their books.
Did you look at my link?
Yes, and I have even looked at the Federal Reserve's Balance sheet. I can assure you it balances.
Edit: N.B. Balancing the books is not the same as balancing the budget.
Just go away, now you making stuff up. Im done talking to you.
Balance sheets balancing is a truism....they balance by definition.
Also, if you can print money it certainly makes it a lot easier to remain "profitable."
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Claire Voyant
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Posted - 2011.05.12 13:05:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Shira Elan
Balance sheets balancing is a truism....they balance by definition.
Also, if you can print money it certainly makes it a lot easier to remain "profitable."
This was the full original quote:
Originally by: Claire Voyant
But on the other hand, central banks (in theory) have to balance their books. That would set them aside from every NPC in the game who can simply print money every time you run a mission for them.
NPC books don't balance, not in any sense of the word, so this is hardly a truism.
Open your wallet in Eve. There you will find a number that is your wallet balance. As far as anyone can tell, NPCs don't even have a wallet balance because if they did, they would run out of isk at some point. Every time you run a mission or kill a rat, some NPC corp is "printing" money. It doesn't come from anywhere. It is simply created.
An Eve central bank, on the other hand, would most likely be a "player" account of some kind and would have to follow the same basic accounting rules players do. In other words, it will have a wallet, wallet transactions, and a wallet balance. When it is created it will probably be given a certain amount of isk which would be its initial capital. When it buys PLEX off the market the isk it spends will come out of its wallet. When it sells the PLEX the isk will go back in the wallet.
You may wish to argue this point, but it is simply the most obvious implementation of what Dr. E proposed. He wants to create an entity that is under his personal control and not a robotic monster programmed by the devs so this is the only way it makes sense.
This was the point I was making. I'm not sure what your point is.
For the record, every week the Federal Reserve Bank publishes its balance sheet which includes the amount of currency (Federal Reserve notes) in circulation and the amount of deposits held by the Fed listed as its liabilities. And yes, their balance sheet balances because they are bankers at heart and you would know if you ever worked at a bank that you don't go home at the end of the day until everything balances.
But balancing the books is hardly a truism. Yes, modern computerized bookkeeping systems enforce a certain internal consistency but that doesn't mean that Quickbooks will always agree with your bank statement. The concept of balancing stems from double-entry bookkeeping which didn't even exist until the 1400's and wasn't widely used until much later. Most small businesses and non-profits did their accounting by hand until the 1980's and balancing the books was not a trivial process in those days.
However, it is a truism that if you don't produce a balance sheet, you don't know if your books are in balance. Yet, the funny thing is I have never seen a balance sheet from from an IPO in Eve. I have seen financial reports presented to the boards of small non-profits that didn't include a balance sheet. I was invited to join the audit committee of a church and when I asked to see the balance sheet they looked at me like I had three heads. Do you think the central bank of Libya or any other third world dictatorship produces a balance sheet?
Also, if you knew anything about accounting you would know that when you print money and then keep it on your books as a liability it doesn't make you any more profitable.
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Steve Thomas
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.05.12 17:43:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 09/05/2011 07:29:55
Originally by: Ghoest
If anything, CCP might be regarding the current price a tad bit too high (reducing the incentive to RMT, but also reducing the number of PLEX-supported subs), in which case, the stabilizing effect would be achieved by BUYING ISK AND SELLING PLEX, which is basically the same as taking in the Monopoly money you have yourself printed and paying out real cash, which they should want to avoid as much as humanly possible.
this
to put it bluntly there so many other real world efects that handing out plex would have on there bottom line that, Frankly, I was shocked to find out after they announced the plex for subs thing earlyer that the next announcment about CCP did not come from the investors thanking the head of CCP for his years of dedicated work.
Then I realised that the developers are just hopeing that they can pad there sub numbers.
.End of line.
If your too paranoid to play EvE. . .
...then your not paranoid enough to play EvE
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2011.06.29 16:30:00 -
[68]
Are you starting to believe?
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.29 16:32:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Ghoest
Are you starting to believe?
Seriously...
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Vaylent PrinterOne
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Posted - 2011.06.29 17:32:00 -
[70]
Plex doesn't CREATE isk, it merely transfers it from one player to another. That's not really inflation, though it would be wrong to say it has no effect.
Things that create Isk from essentially nothing
Incursion payouts
Bounty payouts
Mission payouts
Insurance payouts
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.29 18:53:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Vaylent PrinterOne
Plex doesn't CREATE isk
Unless CCP would have put up NPC buy orders for PLEX, in which case it does.
And that's the preferred conspiracy theory for Ghoest (with regards to this thread).
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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