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PI prices continue to crash

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Zelda Wei Caldari New Horizon Trade Exchange	Posted - 2011.05.11 08:27:00 - [1] How low will they go? MIMAF
Caldorous Gallente	Posted - 2011.05.11 09:01:00 - [2] I think that 0isk is a widely accepted minimum price for any given commodity. Except for the fact that 0 isk means that it good is free so 0.01 isk would be a more appropiate amount ;)
Viule Sawyr	Posted - 2011.05.11 12:13:00 - [3] Considering the cost to fuel a POS skyrocketed wiuth the introduction of PI I'd say the expected prices will possible fall back into just higher than the pre-PI realm. I think CCP intended PI to add more player control to the market but not to make it into some ISK hoarding venture that drives up prices for almost everything else in game. I think it's meant to be just a bit of passive income but not some much that you can AFK a plex every month for example. It used to cost what about 50 mil pre-PI to fuel a small tower and now it was closer to 90-100.. (at least a month or so ago it was) That's not good for the over all eve economy because it drives the prices of everything created at POS's up.
Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.05.11 14:38:00 - [4] Of course, if you set up in a system that has full pos fuel PI, the cost goes down to nothing but time (not an intent to start the argument over isk lost by not manufacturing something else you can sell for more instead). Get into a hole with perfect PI (all the non-ice pos fuels) and running a pos is rather inexpensive. There are many sides to the coin.
Proton Power Amarr Retirement Retreat	Posted - 2011.05.11 14:51:00 - [5] I think people will burn out from PI, and with less profits less people will be willing to do it daily and change to 3 days, those doing 3 days will change to 7 days.
Quetazal Gallente Clann Fian	Posted - 2011.05.11 16:19:00 - [6] I've been happily doing it daily since it has come out; Truth be told, we need to BP's that consume PI mats to raise the prices again. I am happy to cycle my extractors once a day for the hell of it as it only takes a couple of minutes and I get to say hi to the corpies on. I came, I saw, I downloaded.
Echo Mande	Posted - 2011.05.11 16:38:00 - [7] Originally by: Quetazal Truth be told, we need to BP's that consume PI mats to raise the prices again. You may not have noticed the POS and Sov structure BPOs then, nor the ones for station components.
Fuzzy Wuzzi	Posted - 2011.05.11 17:32:00 - [8] And I literally just finished training all my alt's PI skills and set them up on planets 15 mil in skillbooks x 4 alts = 60mil... + 5 planets x 5 mil in planetary structures x 4 alts = 100 mil... So that's 160 mil that I'm guessing I won't make back for a looonngg time.
Greg Huff	Posted - 2011.05.11 17:59:00 - [9] Originally by: Fuzzy Wuzzi So that's 160 mil that I'm guessing I won't make back for a looonngg time. Yeah... 6 days is SUCH a long time... 1 gas planet, 2 day cycle = 16,000+ Oxygen 4 characters, 5 gas planets, 3 two-day cycles = 960,000 Oxygen Jita sell price = 175 1 week worth of work = 168mil Need a tissue? With a little research you'll find even more profitable items. I got a whole box of tissues... want them?
Fuzzy Wuzzi	Posted - 2011.05.11 20:15:00 - [10] I believe you mistook my light-hearted post as complaining... but very funny stuff with the tissues, I can't help but wonder how many people have said that before you? Thx for the oxygen tip tho, I didn't know it was so profitable. Has it been falling with the rest of the PI goods though?
Wyke Mossari Gallente	Posted - 2011.05.11 20:15:00 - [11] Originally by: Greg Huff Originally by: Fuzzy Wuzzi So that's 160 mil that I'm guessing I won't make back for a looonngg time. Yeah... 6 days is SUCH a long time... 1 gas planet, 2 day cycle = 16,000+ Oxygen 4 characters, 5 gas planets, 3 two-day cycles = 960,000 Oxygen Jita sell price = 175 1 week worth of work = 168mil Need a tissue? With a little research you'll find even more profitable items. I got a whole box of tissues... want them? He won't get that production in high-sec. 960,000 *.38 = 364,800M^3 That's an lot of trips to planets, just to keep the ports clear. PI is tax on the innumerate and those too lazy to run the numbers.
Greg Huff	Posted - 2011.05.11 22:02:00 - [12] Originally by: Fuzzy Wuzzi Has it been falling with the rest of the PI goods though? Honestly, I don't bother tracking PI prices. I make what I make and they sell for what someone will pay for them ... and I always make a profit.
CLONE 9 Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2011.05.11 22:13:00 - [13] Originally by: Greg Huff Originally by: Fuzzy Wuzzi Has it been falling with the rest of the PI goods though? Honestly, I don't bother tracking PI prices. I make what I make and they sell for what someone will pay for them ... and I always make a profit. Because MIMAF ?
Dorian Wylde	Posted - 2011.05.11 23:00:00 - [14] Originally by: CLONE 9 Originally by: Greg Huff Originally by: Fuzzy Wuzzi Has it been falling with the rest of the PI goods though? Honestly, I don't bother tracking PI prices. I make what I make and they sell for what someone will pay for them ... and I always make a profit. Because MIMAF ? Because import/export fees are negligible, it takes less than an hour to handle even 6 full planets, and you can do most of the work while doing other things.
Vulcra	Posted - 2011.05.11 23:56:00 - [15] In terms of POS supplies, people that own POS make their own stuff.
Greg Huff	Posted - 2011.05.12 02:10:00 - [16] Originally by: CLONE 9 Originally by: Greg Huff Originally by: Fuzzy Wuzzi Has it been falling with the rest of the PI goods though? Honestly, I don't bother tracking PI prices. I make what I make and they sell for what someone will pay for them ... and I always make a profit. Because MIMAF ? Not free, but just about. Export fees are minimal, 0.76isk per P1. If they were selling for 10isk each it would still be a profit (although a lot slower to pay off setup/redesign expenses).
CLONE 9 Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2011.05.12 06:25:00 - [17] Originally by: Greg Huff Originally by: CLONE 9 Originally by: Greg Huff Originally by: Fuzzy Wuzzi Has it been falling with the rest of the PI goods though? Honestly, I don't bother tracking PI prices. I make what I make and they sell for what someone will pay for them ... and I always make a profit. Because MIMAF ? Not free, but just about. Export fees are minimal, 0.76isk per P1. If they were selling for 10isk each it would still be a profit (although a lot slower to pay off setup/redesign expenses). So as long as you sell them for above export - yet undercut everyone else, your stuff gets sold and you're happy ... = race to the bottom. I wonder if what is needed is some artificial demand from 'the state' - at fluctuating levels - to introduce competition for demand and put a fluctuating low end cap to satisfy 'sell quick / sell now' producers. I know this goes against market principles. I can't see how PI is sustainable as a market commodity anyway. Surely anyone can produce anything for themselves in any region? If you're organised to set up a POS or run an Alliance in 0.0 - you'll have PI teams producing fuel and parts etc? Or are there resource restrictions in the model that stop this from happening?
Nypheas Azurai	Posted - 2011.05.12 07:49:00 - [18] Originally by: Greg Huff Not free, but just about. Export fees are minimal, 0.76isk per P1. If they were selling for 10isk each it would still be a profit (although a lot slower to pay off setup/redesign expenses). This one suffers greatly from the MIMAF. Please tell me you also run a courier service? --------------------
Wyke Mossari Gallente	Posted - 2011.05.12 09:33:00 - [19] Originally by: CLONE 9 I wonder if what is needed is some artificial demand from 'the state' - at fluctuating levels - to introduce competition for demand and put a fluctuating low end cap to satisfy 'sell quick / sell now' producers. I know this goes against market principles. I can't see how PI is sustainable as a market commodity anyway. Surely anyone can produce anything for themselves in any region? If you're organised to set up a POS or run an Alliance in 0.0 - you'll have PI teams producing fuel and parts etc? Or are there resource restrictions in the model that stop this from happening? What is needed is real demand, something useful to make with PI commodities. POS just don't cut it most alliances have good supplies in stock and other large stocks of P3 bought from NPCs. It was introduced to provide an income for newbies, but the 0.0 primary producer advantage has just turned it into another alliance buff.
Tsual Minmatar	Posted - 2011.05.12 10:12:00 - [20] Edited by: Tsual on 12/05/2011 10:16:08 Originally by: Echo Mande Originally by: Quetazal Truth be told, we need to BP's that consume PI mats to raise the prices again. You may not have noticed the POS and Sov structure BPOs then, nor the ones for station components. Don't forget nanite repair paste. Some t2 blueprints also, but not many ... perhaps could be included into more or be required to produce materials for t2 production.
Elezondo	Posted - 2011.05.12 13:31:00 - [21] Edited by: Elezondo on 12/05/2011 13:31:14 Originally by: Nypheas Azurai Originally by: Greg Huff Not free, but just about. Export fees are minimal, 0.76isk per P1. If they were selling for 10isk each it would still be a profit (although a lot slower to pay off setup/redesign expenses). This one suffers greatly from the MIMAF. Please tell me you also run a courier service? After import/export taxes they sure are free. Throw a couple million at a planet and you have an endless supply of resourcs for almost no time spent. Its not about maximizing profit per unit of materials, its about revenue per unit of time.
Lauren Hellfury Full Pocket Aggro	Posted - 2011.05.12 14:20:00 - [22] /me bangs her head against the wall. Whatever you extract from the planet always has a value. That value is equal to what you can sell it for. They may not cost you anything in terms of Isk (assuming you've written off the cost of setting up the colony as a loss already) and a minimal amount of time but they always have a value. If you could sell what you extracted for more than what you made with what you extracted then you have actually lost out on Isk. Sure, you have more Isk than you had before, but you have less than you could have. MIMAF
Zelda Wei Caldari New Horizon Trade Exchange	Posted - 2011.05.12 15:47:00 - [23] My Time Is Worthless = MIMAF.
VaMei Gallente	Posted - 2011.05.12 17:54:00 - [24] Originally by: Zelda Wei My Time Is Worthless = MIMAF. My time isn't worthless, but spending <15minutes a day to upkeep 5 planets while I'm doing something else isn't much of a time sink. Originally by: Lauren Hellfury /me bangs her head against the wall. Whatever you extract from the planet always has a value. That value is equal to what you can sell it for. In a market driven by oversupply, the most you can expect to sell for is less than most of your competitors are willing to sell for, and even then you can expect your price to be underbid quickly. Originally by: Lauren Hellfury If you could sell what you extracted for more than what you made with what you extracted then you have actually lost out on Isk. P3s & P4s may sell for less than the P1s & P2s you made then from, but when you're hauling from low-sec without jump freighters or bridge networks it takes MUCH more time to move a weeks 1s & 2s than it does a weeks worth of 4s; brining us back to Profit/Hr = (Revenue û Cost)/ Time Spent. Even if I can sell materials for 80% more than finished goods, if it doubles the time spent hauling the crap, I've actually lost money doing it.
Greg Huff	Posted - 2011.05.12 18:20:00 - [25] Edited by: Greg Huff on 12/05/2011 18:21:47 Originally by: Zelda Wei My Time Is Worthless = MIMAF. Oh, please do tell... Exactly what is your time worth? What is your billable hourly rate while playing a game? What exactly is your break even point for P1 materials? (Note that I never stated I didn't value my time or that I didn't account for operational cost)
Fuzzy Wuzzi	Posted - 2011.05.12 20:08:00 - [26] Originally by: Greg Huff Edited by: Greg Huff on 12/05/2011 18:21:47 Originally by: Zelda Wei My Time Is Worthless = MIMAF. Oh, please do tell... Exactly what is your time worth? What is your billable hourly rate while playing a game? What exactly is your break even point for P1 materials? (Note that I never stated I didn't value my time or that I didn't account for operational cost) Another point is that even if I make slightly more money with my time by say running lvl 4s making about 20 mil/hour, I can only do so many of those in a row before being extremely burnt out on Eve & collapsing on my keyboard. That's why I do a bunch of other things like the market, r&d, exploration, and PI, to make isk.
Pugzilla Black	Posted - 2011.05.12 21:25:00 - [27] Originally by: Fuzzy Wuzzi Originally by: Greg Huff Edited by: Greg Huff on 12/05/2011 18:21:47 Originally by: Zelda Wei My Time Is Worthless = MIMAF. Oh, please do tell... Exactly what is your time worth? What is your billable hourly rate while playing a game? What exactly is your break even point for P1 materials? (Note that I never stated I didn't value my time or that I didn't account for operational cost) Another point is that even if I make slightly more money with my time by say running lvl 4s making about 20 mil/hour, I can only do so many of those in a row before being extremely burnt out on Eve & collapsing on my keyboard. That's why I do a bunch of other things like the market, r&d, exploration, and PI, to make isk. What this guy said. PI is a nice way to get some semi-passive ISK, but it's not a full time gig. It's best to do some other stuff to avoid burning out. Perhaps consider making a pirate alt and get your yarr on. Pugz
Fesecious Gallente legio immortalorum	Posted - 2011.05.12 21:26:00 - [28] Edited by: Fesecious on 12/05/2011 21:26:58 Break even point on time vs. profit is dependent upon what you enjoy doing. 1) Takes 3 hours of hauling P1's and P2's to make 10mil 2) Takes 1 hour of hauling P4's to make 3mil I will take option 2 any day of the week even though it less of a profit than option 1. Reason is because this gives me 2 hours to do something else. Even if you lower it to 2mil which is 1/5th of the overall profit I will take that option. This is a game and its about enjoying your time doing it. If you enjoy hauling maybe you might do option 1 to make more, but i do not.
Novee InFeldspar	Posted - 2011.05.13 02:47:00 - [29] Edited by: Novee InFeldspar on 13/05/2011 02:49:11 I find these threads fascinating - the whole "jump on the Minerals I Mine Are Free" meme is ridiculous. Its as though one person looked up the dictionary definition for 'opportunity cost' and based an entire religion around it. Such is the fervour of MIMAF opponents. Yes, you have to at least think about the opportunity cost of NOT selling your products, especially if you are to use them in the next phase of manufacturing. They are not free, even if they seemingly appear out of thin air. This is what the MIMAF brigade want to bring to the teeming millions who (somehow mistakenly) believe that stuff they create out of moons is actually free. They didn't pay for it, the moon /planet just created it! I manufacture a fair bit of T2 modules, have 12 planets running for POS fuel production and POSes running simple and complex reactions. I have a fair time investment in Excel too, such that it imports prices and updates every product/material I use/buy/consume. But many players run on just scribbles on the back of an envelope, or even a 'gut instinct' economic fashion. For the majority, this works, and if it doesn't, they switch products, or make a few more scribbles and find something that does. These players will not go into enormous depth creating profit/loss per unit spreadsheets in Excel/GoogleDocs etc... to them its not fun. For them its not about min-maxing every last ISK out of every planet or trade transaction. Even if their basic economics is somehow wrong or doesn't compute with some players anti-MIMAF spreadsheets, does that make these players wrong? No, it just means you might be able to squeeze a bit more ISK out of a product or turn a profit on items that don't seem likely earners. TL;DR - Different players will place different 'costs' on their time and involvement with the game. This does not make them wrong, even if it doesn't fit with real-life economic theory. These players compete with you and against you in Eve regardless of MIMAF/MIMANotF. Deal with it. Edit: spelling doh.
Katja Norolyev	Posted - 2011.05.13 03:15:00 - [30] Originally by: Novee InFeldspar Edited by: Novee InFeldspar on 13/05/2011 02:49:11 But many players run on just scribbles on the back of an envelope... Reported for apperantly having cameras in my bedroom. Seriously, though: Those 'scribbles' are complex, informed calculations. I don't use my crude medium as an excuse not to produce and sell the most valuable commodities, so that I can buy more reasonable materials to manufacture/invent/process/react/etc with. People that harp about MIMAF are silly, but it's because they obviously understand a little about economics, but apperantly not enough to realize they can profit off of market anomalies that the drooling "MIMAFers" create with their mindless dedication to a single cause. Thus, the whiners, in their unwillingness(inability?) to metagame the MIMAFers, fall into the same mental trap the MIMAFers themselves are in, just one "cognitive leap" higher. Delicious irony.

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