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Zeta Zhul
Caldari Preemptive Paranoia
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Posted - 2011.05.16 00:16:00 -
[31]
1. Why should low-sec get any special treatment? That keeps coming up but the reason for it IMO are specious. Frankly get rid of low-sec and just leave high-sec and null-sec and leave it at that.
2. I still think that CCP will eventually require all ships to use fuel just to run. Not having any overhead expense in ship operation other than ammo or repairs makes it too easy to profit. Especially with courier missions where no ammo is expended.
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Candy Oshea
Amarr Techfree Investment Group
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Posted - 2011.05.16 00:58:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Candy Oshea on 16/05/2011 00:59:09
Originally by: Candy Oshea The only issue i can see atm with mission grinders is Plex's being too easily attainable.
Originally by: Zube Zwartraider So my point referring to your post here is: PLEXes will not become more easily attainable.
Sorry if i seem to be trolling you but...
You didn't read what line 1 in my post actually said did you??? pretty sure you just agreed with me ..
If a player who used to plex their account via Level 4's (pre nerf) lets face it, a good level 4 agent with a CNR, can easily make 25 mil for an hours work. this is far too easy for high sec, with little to no risk.
Now suddenly "nerf" can't afford plex by running missions, they will either pay the RL$$ for their subscription (generating more revenue for CCP) or look to alternate in game isk sources, mining, havens/sanctums production, PI etc.
Plex's will always be generated regardless of consumption by players, these plex's are generated by players who want something in game (thus revenue for CCP)for e.g. a new Super, some new faction ship, an officer mod w/e & the generation of Plex has nothing to do with who consumes them.
Making Plex's less attainable for mission runners in general is for CCP = More revenue (imo) which i think is the driving force for the nerf.
Cheers
Candy. ___ iCandy Bonds
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Tutskii
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Posted - 2011.05.16 01:34:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Candy Oshea Edited by: Candy Oshea on 16/05/2011 00:59:09
Originally by: Candy Oshea The only issue i can see atm with mission grinders is Plex's being too easily attainable.
Originally by: Zube Zwartraider So my point referring to your post here is: PLEXes will not become more easily attainable.
Sorry if i seem to be trolling you but...
You didn't read what line 1 in my post actually said did you??? pretty sure you just agreed with me ..
If a player who used to plex their account via Level 4's (pre nerf) lets face it, a good level 4 agent with a CNR, can easily make 25 mil for an hours work. this is far too easy for high sec, with little to no risk.
Now suddenly "nerf" can't afford plex by running missions, they will either pay the RL$$ for their subscription (generating more revenue for CCP) or look to alternate in game isk sources, mining, havens/sanctums production, PI etc.
Plex's will always be generated regardless of consumption by players, these plex's are generated by players who want something in game (thus revenue for CCP)for e.g. a new Super, some new faction ship, an officer mod w/e & the generation of Plex has nothing to do with who consumes them.
Making Plex's less attainable for mission runners in general is for CCP = More revenue (imo) which i think is the driving force for the nerf.
Cheers
Candy.
There is also the very real possibility that they will stop playing.
Go make a new disaster, that's what I'm counting on. You're someone else's problem, now I only want you gone... |
Vandar Inkura
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Posted - 2011.05.16 14:01:00 -
[34]
You are speculating in the wrong things - to get some profit out of this patch, you should buy an assload of dogtags.
Why?
Because lots of items in LP stores requires criminal dogtags, and those wont rise in quantity, so their price will initially go up, due to the increased demand.
You're welcome.
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Frank Corncob
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Posted - 2011.05.16 15:44:00 -
[35]
The effects would be the potential dispersion of current mission hubs, as the reason they are hubs is the high agent quality.
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Lando Antilles
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Posted - 2011.05.16 16:21:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Lando Antilles on 16/05/2011 16:24:58
Originally by: Candy Oshea Making Plex's less attainable for mission runners in general is for CCP = More revenue (imo) which i think is the driving force for the nerf.
Umm... doesn't a PLEX cost more in RL$$ than a 1-month sub (let alone a multimonth sub). So, wouldn't CCP get more sub revenue if people paid for their accounts via PLEX's? CCP therefore should want PLEX's to be 'cheap'.
BUT, since PLEX's are initially made by people spending RL$$, CCP also wants them to be expensive. That way GTC buyers feel that they are getting enough ISK value for their $$ purchase so they keep buying more GTC's and selling PLEX's.
These dual pressures should tell us that PLEX's are intentionally range-bound by CCP. Any PLEX nerfs/boosts are the result of whether CCP feels the need to placate either group: those who want to pay to play or those who want to pay by playing. But, CCP will never intentionally alienate either group since one can't function without the other.
TL;DR: Obvious economics is obvious. OR... PLEX price is driven by market forces, i.e. Capitalism works in EVE. ---------------------- My *locked* EVE CV |
Candy Oshea
Amarr Techfree Investment Group
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Posted - 2011.05.17 00:38:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Lando Antilles
Umm... doesn't a PLEX cost more in RL$$ than a 1-month sub (let alone a multimonth sub). So, wouldn't CCP get more sub revenue if people paid for their accounts via PLEX's? CCP therefore should want PLEX's to be 'cheap'.
CCP already received the revenue from the plex which is already on the market.
Mission runner will have to pay via:
- Subscription (generating revenue for CCP)
- Buying plex off website & using (generating revenue for CCP)
- Buying plex of market (generating No additional revenue for CCP, above the seller's purchase from website)
Very simple. ___ iCandy Bonds
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Ghoest
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Posted - 2011.05.17 02:01:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Candy Oshea
stuff Candy.
Complaining that people making 25 mill and hour are getting too rich makes you look like a noob.
Wherever you went - Here you are.
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Candy Oshea
Amarr Techfree Investment Group
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Posted - 2011.05.17 02:14:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Ghoest obvious troll from bitter vet
25 mil an hour risk free? that a guy with 3mil SP & a drake can do? hell yes im complaining.
___ iCandy Bonds
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Rafia Landras Audeles
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.17 02:18:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Ghoest
Originally by: Candy Oshea
stuff Candy.
Complaining that people making 25 mill and hour are getting too rich makes you look like a noob.
This. Let them eat nothing, says Candy. I am not quite sure that people making nothing would be better. But I would hardly call running level 4's in a drake "risk free".
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Candy Oshea
Amarr Techfree Investment Group
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Posted - 2011.05.17 02:28:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Rafia Landras Audeles
This. Let them eat nothing, says Candy. I am not quite sure that people making nothing would be better. But I would hardly call running level 4's in a drake "risk free".
I Didn't Say "Nothing", i said its too easy to plex an account via level 4's which it obviously is.
As to risk free, please do give some examples of other activities within eve that provide more rewards with less risk. (outside of station trading) that a 3mil SP player can do. ___ iCandy Bonds
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Lando Antilles
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Posted - 2011.05.17 02:48:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Candy Ohea CCP already received the revenue from the plex which is already on the market.
Mission runner will have to pay via: ... òBuying plex of market (generating No additional revenue for CCP, above the seller's purchase from website)
That's where you're wrong.
If PLEX is bought off the market, that increase in demand will drive up PLEX price and therfore encourage OTHER PLAYERS to create PLEXs which *generates revenue for CCP*
Econ 101.
It's a pretty sweet business plan that I have to give CCP props for. They squeeze out maximum revenue by offering PLEX and tweaking things (if needed) so that the price point maximizes both PLEX creation from GTC buyers and PLEX redemption by folks that can't/won't shell out cash. ---------------------- My *locked* EVE CV |
Candy Oshea
Amarr Techfree Investment Group
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Posted - 2011.05.17 03:07:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Candy Oshea on 17/05/2011 03:09:09
Originally by: Lando Antilles
Originally by: Candy Ohea CCP already received the revenue from the plex which is already on the market.
Mission runner will have to pay via: ... òBuying plex of market (generating No additional revenue for CCP, above the seller's purchase from website)
That's where you're wrong.
If PLEX is bought off the market, that increase in demand will drive up PLEX price and therfore encourage OTHER PLAYERS to create PLEXs which *generates revenue for CCP*
Econ 101.
Thats one way to look at it i suppose & on paper your assumption is somewhat correct.
However in reality i highly doubt john Q'Isk-buyer will wait for a year to "buy in big" on the Plex cycle to gain an extra 10 mil per plex. Especially given the Human Factor these days & patience is long forgotten in todays "i want in Now" world.
Candy. ___ iCandy Bonds
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Rafia Landras Audeles
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.17 03:18:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Candy Oshea
Originally by: Rafia Landras Audeles
This. Let them eat nothing, says Candy. I am not quite sure that people making nothing would be better. But I would hardly call running level 4's in a drake "risk free".
I Didn't Say "Nothing", i said its too easy to plex an account via level 4's which it obviously is.
As to risk free, please do give some examples of other activities within eve that provide more rewards with less risk. (outside of station trading) that a 3mil SP player can do.
Obviously?
At 25 million an hour that would be 15 hours of so of running missions non stop without losing a single ship. And considering most people lose ships, or do things other than mission incessantly, it seems like an endless grind for very little payout.
Nonsense like that shows the disconnect that some people in MD seem to have. These pauper players that make nothing, how long do you think they continue to play exactly? And at what point do you think they start to enjoy themselves? And what, pray tell, do you think is a reasonable amount for the plebes to make?
This is a game, not a rat grind simulator. Some seem to forget that.
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Candy Oshea
Amarr Techfree Investment Group
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Posted - 2011.05.17 03:34:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Candy Oshea on 17/05/2011 03:38:34
Originally by: Rafia Landras Audeles
Obviously?
At 25 million an hour that would be 15 hours of so of running missions non stop without losing a single ship. And considering most people lose ships, or do things other than mission incessantly, it seems like an endless grind for very little payout.
Nonsense like that shows the disconnect that some people in MD seem to have. These pauper players that make nothing, how long do you think they continue to play exactly? And at what point do you think they start to enjoy themselves? And what, pray tell, do you think is a reasonable amount for the plebes to make?
This is a game, not a rat grind simulator. Some seem to forget that.
So instead of answering my question, you turned it into some speech on how MD ppl are disconnected from the game?
When i started running missions, i did 1-2 a day (maybe an Hour if that, i was using a gallente pilot, so a raven pilot would be half this) at max 10-15 missions per week. And i never lost a ship to rats.
At roughly 20-25mil for 2 missions a day (including salvage, loot & LP) I was making per month 700-750m. wouldn't so much call that a "grind" more so a "gift"
Asking me how much "plebes" should make is pretty childish, my opinion on missions is that they are an easy isk fountain for everyone, tightening the grip on the rewards may actually make other paths worth it, hence my original "stealth mining buff" comment.
It doesn't appear that they are changing Agent rewards (i believe they are improving them), as much as locations. so we are arguing about nothing, im just voicing my opinion is all.
The change/rumored change has no bearing on me personally.
EDIT: Also bear in Mind, every activity in this game is revolved around "making" isk. Even PVP (Loot)
Candy. ___ iCandy Bonds
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Machete Visor
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Posted - 2011.05.17 04:31:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Vandar Inkura You are speculating in the wrong things - to get some profit out of this patch, you should buy an assload of dogtags.
Why?
Because lots of items in LP stores requires criminal dogtags, and those wont rise in quantity, so their price will initially go up, due to the increased demand.
You're welcome.
^
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Rustynail79
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Posted - 2011.05.17 13:36:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Candy Oshea
Originally by: Ghoest obvious troll from bitter vet
25 mil an hour risk free? that a guy with 3mil SP & a drake can do? hell yes im complaining.
If you know a 3mill sp character in a drake that can make 25 mill an hour running L4 in high sec solo then you know a liar. Now if your were talking about a 3mill sp in lowsec running L4 with the protection of his pirate buddies thats somthing different entirely.
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Charles37
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Posted - 2011.05.17 14:22:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Charles37 on 17/05/2011 14:22:01 Three things:
1. Storyline agents seem to be shoehorned into the same three divisions as everyone else, so if people are moving, they will probably ensure they are near a combat storyline agent.
2. Being able to guarantee combat storyline agents will let people gain standings significantly faster, as combat storylines gives a much higher % faction standing gain then courier or "Materials for War" missions do.
3. This could also very well have an impact on implant prices. If few people do "Materials for War" there will be a lower supply of +4 implants. By the same token, mindlink prices might drop, as I believe these come from combat storyline missions (someone correct me if I'm wrong).
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Baljos Arnjak
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Posted - 2011.05.17 15:30:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Baljos Arnjak on 17/05/2011 15:33:58 I just got off of the test server. I was able to get ahold of one of the new combat social skillbooks, then went to my mission system (Hakeri (0.7 sec)) and checked the new LP payout.
Old payout (with both connection skills at 5) and max LP mission: 6978 New payout (with security connections at 5) and max LP mission: 7345
Works out to about a 5% increase in LP over previous payouts. Given that this is the test server and things can change all the way until they push it to live.
Next time I get on, I'll check a couple of other agents that I have LP numbers for to make sure it's consistent across security levels (probably is).
Edit: Forgot to add that when I used my reimbursed skill points to train up the new skill to 5, I had about half a million SP left over from the different connection skills, so in my case I'll be able to spend half on the new skillbook and throw half at something else =)
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Caleb Ayrania
Gallente TarNec
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Posted - 2011.05.17 23:21:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Lando Antilles
Originally by: Candy Ohea CCP already received the revenue from the plex which is already on the market.
Mission runner will have to pay via: ... òBuying plex of market (generating No additional revenue for CCP, above the seller's purchase from website)
That's where you're wrong.
If PLEX is bought off the market, that increase in demand will drive up PLEX price and therfore encourage OTHER PLAYERS to create PLEXs which *generates revenue for CCP*
Econ 101.
It's a pretty sweet business plan that I have to give CCP props for. They squeeze out maximum revenue by offering PLEX and tweaking things (if needed) so that the price point maximizes both PLEX creation from GTC buyers and PLEX redemption by folks that can't/won't shell out cash.
Nice to see someone actually making sense..
CCP wants a good game, and paying customers. Analyzing how this is balanced using game design is key to all changes. Also the poetic fact is the more money ccp makes, the more the incentive to pay for it will go up. Sure many players take their red wining serious voicing lazyness and selfish aims, but in the end the game is more entertaining if it takes effort. Current afkish gamestyles are killing the game, and peoples interest in paying for subscriptions.
Improve incentives to play actively and everyone wins, and make sure people dont just find their easy isk ******* to suck and sit around fapping.
Also a huge important rebalance would be creating sinks for isk and asset hoarders. MAke it more worth it to have circulation of isk and assets, hence a faster reactive and more volatile market and gameplay. Risk vs Rewards. I am expecting better aggression systems, better market systems and less lazyness protection plans. Make hunting aggression more efficient and stop boring semi afk gate camping, docking games and laggy brawn based blob wars..
Lando Please drop by the scc-lounge channel and share some live reparte..
end rant* Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge cocktails and Dreams. |
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Marshiro
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Posted - 2011.05.18 03:13:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Candy Oshea When i started running missions, i did 1-2 a day (maybe an Hour if that, i was using a gallente pilot, so a raven pilot would be half this) at max 10-15 missions per week. And i never lost a ship to rats.
At roughly 20-25mil for 2 missions a day (including salvage, loot & LP) I was making per month 700-750m. wouldn't so much call that a "grind" more so a "gift"
Asking me how much "plebes" should make is pretty childish, my opinion on missions is that they are an easy isk fountain for everyone, tightening the grip on the rewards may actually make other paths worth it, hence my original "stealth mining buff" comment.
God, you might even afford to pvp occasionally! Seriously, that is nothing in today's world. If you aren't making 500m/hr at >70m per account you are not even on the radar as a serious isk whoring player. Until you find carriers disposable you aren't really a player in the sov game.
The inability to exploit other means of income is simply the failure of veterans that really ought do better, not any feature of level 4s. Just look at dedicated pvp players that spends alot of their time logged in fighting, and still manage supercarriers left and right and think, what magic.....
A 20x difference in hourly income is enough.
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Candy Oshea
Amarr Techfree Investment Group
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Posted - 2011.05.18 03:54:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Marshiro God, you might even afford to pvp occasionally!
My mission runner days are long gone, if thats what you were implying. I bought a mission runner from Character bazaar to train & resell as an investment, her name is "Himemia", which i occasionaly run the odd mission with. the Gallente pilot i was talking about missioning with was 2 years ago and is now my "main" pvp character.
I PvP everyday with him nowadays, was in a fleet fight yesterday Alpha shield BS v Armor BS/T3 Gang, was an excellent somewhat matched fight, until they dropped 3 triage archon's on us & repped up there BS's & T3's, so we lured them out of rep range & continued alpha'ing them
i have a 2 PC set-up at home, laptop is Trading (iCandy), invention, production & occasionaly Mission running. And my big PC is for PVP/Nullsec PVE (plexes)
I pay for my accounts with plex, not RL $$ & have plenty left over to PvP! ___ iCandy Bonds
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Merouk Baas
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.18 10:31:00 -
[53]
Regarding people spreading out to other agents: yes we'll see that, but choice of agents also depends on factors not mentioned yet:
- agent locations are not homogeneous throughout the universe - runners still prefer agents that are FAR away from lowsec areas (so they don't get sent there during missions) - having to move your CNR + Noctis + your stuff is a pita - only a few agents will suddenly offer different kinds of missions (courier -> mining f.ex.), requiring a move
As such, it's easier to just continue using current agents, and the only incentive to move seems to be due to ninja salvagers (so if you want to effect a spreading-out, CCP, encourage the ones in mission hubs).
Finally, LPs are corp-wide, and it's unlikely that divisional changes will actually change a NPC corp into giving different mission types altogether. And CCP have said nothing about changing LP rewards or costs/pricing, so I'm not sure why people would suddenly decide to cash out.
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Rhivre
Caldari TarNec
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Posted - 2011.05.18 11:33:00 -
[54]
I think it will be interesting to see if mission runners move to the pockets of 0.5/0.6 in a region, or if many of them simply dont notice.
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