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Ways to make the leveling easier on new players?

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James Vorhee	Posted - 2011.05.15 08:54:00 - [1] Edited by: James Vorhee on 15/05/2011 08:56:05 Edited by: James Vorhee on 15/05/2011 08:55:49 Top implants will only take me so far in speeding things up. The game has been here for 9 years so I've got a lot of catching up to do, to the point where it's really daunting. There are so many things I want to do, but so little I will be capable of doing in a decent timeframe. Although on some level it makes sense for CCP to want to make it impossible for anyone to truly finish leveling, at the same time it's also a major barrier of entry to newer players who have no method of being competitive other than waiting around for several years. I'd gladly pay isk or real money to speed up the process. In terms of isk, there could be skillbooks that serve to level us up rather than inject skills. In terms of money, a fair way to do this could be to say that someone who prepays for a year gets much faster skill training for that year. Another option could be to introduce a curve whereby low skilled characters have learning multipliers that gradually disappear as they reach a certain amount of of skill points (That number could be set on a ratio of the average skillpoints of every character in the game) Not everyone I'm sure will approve of the idea of giving players avenues for speeding up their leveling, but after 9 years I think it might be time for that in order to make the game more inviting to those who aren't already entrenched.
Hra Neuvosto The 8th Order	Posted - 2011.05.15 08:59:00 - [2] no
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet	Posted - 2011.05.15 09:00:00 - [3] 3/10 Terrible, but you'll still likely get people to bite and go through your post point by point.
Kerfira Kerfira Corp	Posted - 2011.05.15 09:00:00 - [4] Stop thinking in WoW terms... 'Skills' are not what'll make you good in EVE, but 'Skill' will! A player with level 4 in the important skills will beat a player with level 5 IF the '4' is a better player. You can get to level 4 in most important skills in a matter of months. Skills points doesn't matter as much as you think... Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Ruby Udders	Posted - 2011.05.15 09:18:00 - [5] If you want to speed up the process you can buy a character in the character bazaar. Part of the allure of EVE is that you progress gradually and enjoy the ride. If you are unable to enjoy the voyage to EVE's endgame then it's your loss.
Daemeon Fyral Minmatar Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2011.05.15 09:29:00 - [6] Paying for skill = hell ****ing no Not being able to catch up or be effective without years of investment, Also false, for 1 a big part of it is personal skill not what skillbooks you have and for 2 it doesn't take long to be able to get something going. Sure you might not have as wide a variety of ships that you can fly and maybee you can't fly the larger ones yet but all it takes is what... a month at most to fly a decently fit frigate, 2 months or so and you could fit one like a champ. hell with only a day or 2 of training you can fit one for tackle and still be able to play a role in a fleet. and as for the skill training curve, correct me if i'm wrong since its been a long time since I started a new character but don't they already have something like that. double the training speed for the first however many skill points. I vaguely seem to remember something like that.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.05.15 09:32:00 - [7] Leveling? Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
The Old Chap	Posted - 2011.05.15 09:37:00 - [8] EVE is a long-term game and players who have been playing for eight years have made a significant long-term investment. If you want something that gives instant results, then you need to go elsewhere. That said, some levelling has already happened. The learning skills have all gone, and every character now has a 'boosted' rate of skill learning compared to what earlier players could achieve. New players can quite quickly achieve veteran levels of ability if they focus their learning on a specialism, eg: combat or mining. I saw a 5-month old player in Fricoure last month flying a Machariel with a nice T2 fit... it took me several years to get to that stage. Also, the skills are set up so that you get a diminishing return as you increase the level trained. Level 1 takes minutes, but gives the same amount of increased ability as training from level 4 to 5, which can take a month or more. If you want to become a generalist, doing a bit of everything, training stuff to level four almost gets you to the top level of ability in a fraction of the time. My recommendation for noobs is to only train up to level 4 unless you really need L5 for something special. Concentrate on getting as much as possible up to L4 and you'll have a very capable character indeed.
Daniela Darr	Posted - 2011.05.15 09:40:00 - [9] In a way I can see where the OP comes from. EVE's 8 years old now and a new player who's starting anew sees the old veterans fly around in supercaps and holding vast amounts of space. As a new player you may be able to be of use but the road to a T2 supercap pilot is at least 3 years, which is a long time. Imagine CCP would put a second server online where we'd all start from scratch (yes I know they won't). A place where a battleship is still impressive and a carrier a rare sight. Where would you think the new players would rather compete?
Samillian	Posted - 2011.05.15 09:42:00 - [10] No, paying to improve your SP, HELL NO! There is plenty for a low SP character to do in EvE, for example getting into a T2 interceptor doesn't take long and is a lot of fun. I've never been on a roam where fast tackle wasn't always welcome.
Aeronwen Carys Empire of Dust	Posted - 2011.05.15 09:47:00 - [11] Originally by: Daniela Darr In a way I can see where the OP comes from. EVE's 8 years old now and a new player who's starting anew sees the old veterans fly around in supercaps and holding vast amounts of space. As a new player you may be able to be of use but the road to a T2 supercap pilot is at least 3 years, which is a long time. Imagine CCP would put a second server online where we'd all start from scratch (yes I know they won't). A place where a battleship is still impressive and a carrier a rare sight. Where would you think the new players would rather compete? No No No GOD NO. This isn't World of Warcraft for crying out loud, if thats what you want to play then go play it. EVE is a game of patience, skill and judgement, if you don't have any of these in any amount then this is NOT the game for you. Also, since you clearly don't understand anything about this game, the fact that its one world, one server and one persistent universe is EVE's major selling point. Every single character in this game has been skilled up over time, there is no levelling, there is no "pay money, receive skill points" facility in this game and I hope to god there never will be. For god sake go and read something about this game, or get out.
Dalmont Delantee Gallente Shiloh Technologies	Posted - 2011.05.15 09:49:00 - [12] Bless him, he thinks SP = level. 1) SP doesn't = level 2) A 2 mil character can kill a 120 mil character (or facilite their deaths) 3) A 2 mil character can't fly a titan....something to look forward to then, you know, like grinding squirrels for an achievement 4) End games that come easy = short term game or rince and repeat gameplay (see wow). EVE has different end games depending on what you want to do, and then you can change what you want to do on a whim Take comfort in knowing that its probably some pimply faced twit, or 40 year old virgin, who gleens everytime mommy offfers to take them to needle point lessons
DarkAegix	Posted - 2011.05.15 09:50:00 - [13] Prepare for a cascade of bittervets afraid that new players will be able to defeat them in PVP. "Skillpoints have very, very little impact in combat" is what they say, but we all know they'd whinge and moan with "Where's the advantage we deserve for playing EVE this long!?" if anything were changed. For example, for a Cane with T2 guns and all V skills you get about ~550 turret dps. Meta 3 guns (meta 4 cost like 5x more than T2) get about ~450 turret dps, with all skills at V. That's about a 22% difference, just by using T2. That's a huge difference, even though both ships have all skills at V. A new player who can't even use T2 guns will have a massive disadvantage. As a newish player, I think EVE's skilling is fairly balanced, because of the nature of skills taking longer to train the higher the level. However, it could be just a tiny bit fairer for new players if there were some kind of small bonus. Like 5% faster training for a year. For free, of course. For those of us who already have accounts and won't receive this 5% benefit can be given the amount of SP they would have received. Much older players get nothing. That will result in lots of rage. So, CCP won't do anything. Which is fine. But a tiny bonus would be nice. Real life money for SP is very, very, VERY bad. ISK for SP is very, very bad.
Jennifer Starling Imperial Navy Forum Patrol	Posted - 2011.05.15 09:50:00 - [14] Sometimes I wonder how exactly would it break the game if there weren't skills and everyone could fly all ships and everything was just up to player skill and tactics.
Daemeon Fyral Minmatar Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2011.05.15 09:51:00 - [15] Also, if your willing to pay for more skill points there actually IS a system built into the game that allows this. Step 1) buy plex, lots and lots of plex Step 2) sell said plex on the market for ISKies Step 3) go to the marketplace and find a character that has the skills you want Step 4) buy said character Step 5) ??? Step 6) Profit... maybee... after you figure out how the hell to actually USE these skills you suddenly have but havn't had the chance to learn properly.
Tres Farmer Gallente Federation Intelligence Service	Posted - 2011.05.15 09:54:00 - [16] Originally by: James Vorhee The game has been here for 9 years so I've got a lot of catching up to do, to the point where it's really daunting. There are so many things I want to do, but so little I will be capable of doing in a decent timeframe. snip ..xxxM SP wont help you with that my dear. Eve will be around for at least another 8 years. Eve is about progression and enjoying the ride.. if you aren't capable of that Eve will never be for you. Get rid of Rooms with Doors - Shortrange Jumpdrives for everybody!
Ankh Minmatar Angel Constellation	Posted - 2011.05.15 09:57:00 - [17] Originally by: Daniela Darr EVE's 8 years old now and a new player who's starting anew sees the old veterans fly around in supercaps and holding vast amounts of space. As a new player you may be able to be of use but the road to a T2 supercap pilot is at least 3 years, which is a long time. Imagine CCP would put a second server online where we'd all start from scratch (yes I know they won't). A place where a battleship is still impressive and a carrier a rare sight. Where would you think the new players would rather compete? There are many, many vets who don't fly supercaps and don't want to. There's so much more to that game than that. Going back to Day 1 would be interesting, especially if the game mechanics were the same as back then. Mining in frigates, using haulers with microscopic cargo holds, but access to top-end roids in empire space was very interesting. But there were no BS's to start with, and no hulks etc. Also no megacorps and alliances, bubbles or jumpdrives, which made access to 0.0 much better. But it would be nice to chain rats again, and have decent mods drop in the loot. And solo pirating would be viable again... Yeah some things were better back then, but the thing I remember most was the lag that affected every area of gameplay (especially in Yulai, which was the Jita equivalent then) and the horrendous round of bugs that would plague the game after every patch, requiring many unscheduled downtimes. Wouldn't want that again!
Shania Fox	Posted - 2011.05.15 09:58:00 - [18] Edited by: Shania Fox on 15/05/2011 10:05:35 Edited by: Shania Fox on 15/05/2011 10:01:02 Edited by: Shania Fox on 15/05/2011 10:00:10 First problem is in your title of the thread, you are thinking in terms of leveling which does not really apply to Eve. Eve levels are only individually skill related and not general levels for game progression as in some other MMOs. I personally would not bother with top implants, they still cost too much for the benefit they give, +4s are perfectly ok. If you take a break then you can't catch up on the time you have been out of game as training is an on going process. The game is designed to have long training times, it's so that characters don't end up all the same, you are not really supposed to end up having all skills at lvl 5. Paying isk to speed up the process will just add to cheapening the game and likely to cause a lot of discontent within the community. There's never a fair way to do anything where RL money is concerned for the simple fact we don't all have the same amount of RL money at our disposal. You don't need training multipliers they are already ingame in a way. Players with lots SP will have more level 5s than you but you can still catch up to a point by learning skills to level 4. You're right not everyone would approve of you ideas, me included. There is one thing I would like to see and that is the skills altered a bit to fly mining barges (not that I mine) as the skills seem too close to those that are needed for exhumers.
Jennifer Starling Imperial Navy Forum Patrol	Posted - 2011.05.15 09:58:00 - [19] Originally by: Daemeon Fyral after you figure out how the hell to actually USE these skills you suddenly have but havn't had the chance to learn properly. As if EVE is that complicated. It doesn't take 3 years to understand titan skills. The skilltraining curve is way way way steeper than the learning curve.
Anddeh McNab Cadre Assault Force	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:02:00 - [20] OP needs to be familiar with the destination isn't important, the journey is. Originally by: Samillian No, paying to improve your SP, HELL NO! There is plenty for a low SP character to do in EvE, for example getting into a T2 interceptor doesn't take long and is a lot of fun. I've never been on a roam where fast tackle wasn't always welcome. Don't even need a T2 interceptor tbh. Our corp runs Rifter Roams, T1 fit throw away rifters to go kill as much stuff before dying. It's alot of fun and it doesn't matter if you have 50 million SP or just started playing last month. The only way us "bitter vets" have an advantage is Warp Drive Operation V for them 100+AU warps, which you don't see so often. There are two sides to the EVE community; those that scream for change and those that scream against it. Often they are the same person.
James Vorhee	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:10:00 - [21] Edited by: James Vorhee on 15/05/2011 10:10:58 Originally by: Daemeon Fyral Also, if your willing to pay for more skill points there actually IS a system built into the game that allows this. Step 1) buy plex, lots and lots of plex Step 2) sell said plex on the market for ISKies Step 3) go to the marketplace and find a character that has the skills you want Step 4) buy said character Step 5) ??? Step 6) Profit... maybee... after you figure out how the hell to actually USE these skills you suddenly have but havn't had the chance to learn properly. Buying a character would be a more viable option if it came with a free rename and avatar change. Do they even allow you to buy a rename?
Daemeon Fyral Minmatar Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:11:00 - [22] Originally by: Jennifer Starling Originally by: Daemeon Fyral after you figure out how the hell to actually USE these skills you suddenly have but havn't had the chance to learn properly. As if EVE is that complicated. It doesn't take 3 years to understand titan skills. The skilltraining curve is way way way steeper than the learning curve. True EVE may not be all that complicated once you get the hang of it, but we're talking a brand new player suddenly flying an inty or a titan. do you really want him to be the guy fast tackling for your fleet? or being responsible for bridging your cap fleet it? The video of the titan jumping instead of bridging springs to mind and that was an experienced player.
James Vorhee	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:14:00 - [23] Edited by: James Vorhee on 15/05/2011 10:16:41 Edited by: James Vorhee on 15/05/2011 10:16:02 I can certainly understand that old time players deserve advantages, but there has to be a medium point here for when a game has gone on for 9 years. I think giving players an accelerated skill point up to a certain threshold would help get new players up to a more competitive level, a jump start, while still putting them far behind what the decade long vets have. You'd still have to specialize, but your range of abilities would not be so narrow and ineffective in the first six months to a year. You'd be able to branch out a bit more, and go a bit deeper.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:19:00 - [24] Originally by: James Vorhee The game has been here for 9 years so I've got a lot of catching up to do, to the point where it's really daunting. No you don't. You see, "catching up" isn't really an applicable concept to EVE due to how the skill system works ù thinking in those terms will always lead you down a never-ending path of "catch up to what?" counter-questions. There is exactly one thing that you ~~can't~~ will not easily "catch up" with when compared to older players, and that is total SPà fortunately, total SP is a completely worthless measurement ù it only ever serves to make your medical clone expensive. Total SP can also be lost, so it's not even true that older characters will always stay ahead, even if they train at max speed (which is another less than universally accurate assumption). For everything else, you need to remember one simple thing: skill levels in EVE are capped at V. Once you get there, you have caught up with anyone and everyone who ever has or will train that skill. You also need to remember a more complicated thing: training to lvl V is quite often an immense waste of time. In the time it takes you to get to V (which often yields a very tiny bonus relative to lvl IV), you can take five skills to lvl IV, and you'll often find that the compound effect of all those lvl-IV skills will outweigh the advantage of taking a single skill to V. Moreover, if we don't want to dive into the discussion of what really matters PC skills or player "skillz" (just to separate the two) and just look at what SP gives you, you quickly realise why total SP is of no importance. What matters is applicable SP: for any given activity, ship, situation, event (etc), there is only a limited subset of all the skills in EVE that have any impact on what's going on. A 100M SP player who finds himself in an industrial ship just to carry a bunch of stuff from one end of the region to another will probably only "use" some 5û10M SP at that point, of which 90% will simply make the ship get there fasterà At that point in time, you can "catch up" to (in the sense of "be able to beat") that player by investingà ohà 2M SP into a nasty gank destroyer and blow him up. Or, you can beat him by investing 6û11M SP into the same skills he hasà and a better industrial ship ù now you've "caught up" in the sense of "being able to haul more/faster/better"). Note here the inherent problem of defining "catching up": is it a case of overtaking him in this particular task, or is it a case of sidestepping the task and attack the problem from a completely different angle? And of course, there's always the MMO-kind of "catching up", which EVE really favours: get 18 friends and bumrush the poor guyà Numbers is the ultimate "catch up"-tactic, and it's available to you from minute zero. Quote: There are so many things I want to do, but so little I will be capable of doing in a decent timeframe. You will be capable of doing most things, aside from maybe flying a capship, within a year or so (and at the end of that year, you won't really be ready, skillz-wise, to make good use of a capship anyway, so that's not really a problem). The trick lies in not falling for the "must have V" myth. As mentioned, training a skill to IV gives you 80% of the benefits for one fifth the expenditure of time ù this is plenty for just about anything you want to do in this game. Granted, there are some gates that do not let you do this for everything ù lvl V skills that act as prerequisites for T2 equipment, most notably ù but again, remember that once you've got that V, you've caught up with everyone until the end of time in that particular skill. Soà Quote: after 9 years I think it might be time for that in order to make the game more inviting to those who aren't already entrenched. No. The beauty of the EVE skill system is that, even after 9 years, catching up is still trivial ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Daemeon Fyral Minmatar Kinda'Shujaa	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:21:00 - [25] Originally by: James Vorhee Edited by: James Vorhee on 15/05/2011 10:16:41 Edited by: James Vorhee on 15/05/2011 10:16:02 I can certainly understand that old time players deserve advantages, but there has to be a medium point here for when a game has gone on for 9 years. I think giving players an accelerated skill point up to a certain threshold would help get new players up to a more competitive level, a jump start, while still putting them far behind what the decade long vets have. You'd still have to specialize, but your range of abilities would not be so narrow and ineffective in the first six months to a year. You'd be able to branch out a bit more, and go a bit deeper. They already have that, you don't have to train learning skills anymore which the rest of us did. count your blessings that you can actually start training useful skills right out the gate instead of waiting for 2 months. When you think of it as SP = Time thats the equivilant of accelerated skill gain for the first... however many SP all the training skills where worth.
Shania Fox	Posted - 2011.05.15 10:45:00 - [26] Edited by: Shania Fox on 15/05/2011 10:54:31 Originally by: James Vorhee Edited by: James Vorhee on 15/05/2011 10:16:41 Edited by: James Vorhee on 15/05/2011 10:16:02 I can certainly understand that old time players deserve advantages, but there has to be a medium point here for when a game has gone on for 9 years. I think giving players an accelerated skill point up to a certain threshold would help get new players up to a more competitive level, a jump start, while still putting them far behind what the decade long vets have. You'd still have to specialize, but your range of abilities would not be so narrow and ineffective in the first six months to a year. You'd be able to branch out a bit more, and go a bit deeper. Old time players don't deserve advantages, they have advantages because they've played for a long time. You can do level 1 combat missions (all) after doing just the combat and advanced combat tutorial missions, no other skills needed. If you want to become more competitive sooner, then you will have to specialise. It's a choice you have to make and having choices is a good thing. If people had more sp at the start it would not be long before they wanted even more. Making things easier does not necessarily mean you will enjoy the game more.
ExcalibursTemplar Caldari Citadel Enterprises	Posted - 2011.05.15 11:14:00 - [27] Edited by: ExcalibursTemplar on 15/05/2011 11:16:02 Originally by: Ruby Udders If you want to speed up the process you can buy a character in the character bazaar. Part of the allure of EVE is that you progress gradually and enjoy the ride. If you are unable to enjoy the voyage to EVE's endgame then it's your loss. To the op thats the best suggestion in this thread and pretty much the only shortcut you can take. I'm nearly a year old and ive come to the conclusion to be able to do what i actually want to do in this game is going to take me several years of grinding unless i buy a character. It sounds horrible like your going to have to wear someone elses dirty underwear but it has to be done. You could do what someone else has said in this thread and buy loads of plexes and sell them. Or you could pick an L4 mission boat you fancy (i use a CNR) and throw all your training into maxing the skills for just that ship. Then you can just blitz missions like a mad man and save the money to buy a character. Personally im going to go for a pimped research/industrialist alt. That way i can set them up and get a semi passive income of them so i don't have to mission run anymore. Then ill just pick another boat on my main account i want and then specialize the crap out of that and so on and so on. It still going to take me roughly 3 years to get where i want to but that's much better than 5 or 6 years. One thing i do suggest though is don't join a corp on a bought account people don't like that. Join with your main/original account and explain to them that you have an alt that can do x,y,z that you bought but you still need to learn to use properly. As people get severely **ed of if they fly with someone that has x,y,z skills but because they don't know what they're doing it gets them killed. All hail the king of the potato people**
Sojourner Zen Amarr Hedion University	Posted - 2011.05.15 11:14:00 - [28] Originally by: James Vorhee stuff James, just stop. There is no reason CCP owes you, or new players, anything because you didn't start playing the game 8 years ago.
Ifly Uwalk Caldari Concentrated Evil	Posted - 2011.05.15 11:22:00 - [29] Originally by: James Vorhee I should be able to grind into a titan within one month so I can run quests more effectively and go raiding with my other pally buddies. Wow. Go back to it.
Lidia Prince Caldari Caldari Aegis	Posted - 2011.05.15 12:44:00 - [30] Yeah, let's make EVE fully donate-based, sure... No. Skills are already learning much faster than couple years ago, so no.

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