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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2011.05.23 09:10:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 23/05/2011 09:10:29
The problem: Number of ships invulnerable to scan has been steadily increasing lately. I find ship being able to do anything useful with efficiency close to the scannable setups while staying invulnerable to scan bad practice. Unscannable ships are commonly used for safe PvE or gang boosting; although there may be other usages, they're neglectable.
Proposed solution is described in this thread:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1515431
If you agree with presense of a problem and/or proposed solution - please vote for this thread.
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EVE Fit |
Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2011.05.23 09:12:00 -
[2]
/supporting own proposal
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EVE Fit |
Captain Nares
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Posted - 2011.05.23 10:44:00 -
[3]
Agree :)
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Tsubutai
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2011.05.23 11:00:00 -
[4]
Not entirely sold on your solution, but on it being a problem? Absolutely.
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Plastic Dreams
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Posted - 2011.05.23 11:27:00 -
[5]
I support this. I have no problem with afk-cloakers or whatever, because they are cloaked and therefore shouldn't be seen/scanned. However, I often see unprobableT3s used to boost PVP gangs; not only making Fleet Command ships fairly redundant, but I don't see why anything should be able to stay uncloaked but still invulnerable to scanner probes.
T3s has made Command Ships quite redundant in many situations (As they generally do the same things a bit better, at much less of the training time, but at a slightly higher cost), I think CS' should at least be superior in, well, boosting the gang.
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Paul Clancy
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Posted - 2011.05.23 12:49:00 -
[6]
Just support.
In fact, I'm using un-scannable configurations too. But, I think, there must be some real competition between scanner-man and 'unscannable' man. OP proposition isn't ideal but fine as first step in right direction.
(maybe, some active decoys? or stuff)
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Seamus Donohue
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.23 13:16:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Seamus Donohue on 23/05/2011 13:17:17
Not supported.
For unscannable fleetboosters, just apply a penalty to the Warfare Processor subsystems that reduces the sensor strength of a Strategic Cruiser for each gang link module that's fit. Alternately, you can make a very strong flat penalty to the sensor strength just for having a Warfare Processor subsystem. In either case, a sufficiently strong penalty will make the Strategic Cruiser probable.
Regarding unprobable PvE ships, I'm under the impression that PvE fits are generally useless in PvP. Are there any effective PvP fits that can also effectively solo missions? ...and in what levels of missions? The reason I ask is because if PvP fits can't run missions solo, then missions should be changed so that PvP fits can run missions solo before we go breaking or weakening unprobable PvE ships.
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Survivor of Teskanen, fan of John Rourke. |
Destination SkillQueue
Are We There Yet
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Posted - 2011.05.23 13:23:00 -
[8]
Only cloaked ships should be unscannable. If you actively affect the universe, you should be able to be probed out. I'm fine with such ships being much harder than regular vessels to scan down, but it shouldn't be impossible.
Support for the general idea.
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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2011.05.23 13:30:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Seamus Donohue
The reason I ask is because if PvP fits can't run missions solo
You're just wrong. Any mission which is doable in nonstop-cap PvE setup is doable in PvP setup (cap booster, yeah). In fact, some of the lowsec mission runners i know use PvP setups to run lvl 4's.
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EVE Fit |
Calana Humane
HighTech Production
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Posted - 2011.05.23 15:31:00 -
[10]
support
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2011.05.23 16:40:00 -
[11]
Supporting a nerf to riskless PVE in null and low sec.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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EdwardNardella
Capital Construction Research
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Posted - 2011.05.25 02:57:00 -
[12]
These ships can easily be located in much less than 15 min in a familiar system if you care to put in the effort.
Not supported.
CCRES is recruiting pilots who want to live in WSpace/Wormholes. Fill out an application here! |
Goose99
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Posted - 2011.05.25 04:34:00 -
[13]
There is so much whine and tears, it must continue. Not supported.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.25 06:09:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kadesh Priestess
Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 23/05/2011 13:44:17
Originally by: Seamus Donohue
The reason I ask is because if PvP fits can't run missions solo
You're just wrong. Any mission which is doable in nonstop-cap PvE setup is doable in PvP setup (cap booster, yeah). In fact, some of the lowsec mission runners i know use PvP setups to run lvl 4's. Recent changes to missions introduced ability to use such pvp module as MWD on all missions - for ships like ac-capbooster mach it's almost finalized pvp-setup.
For about 1/3rd the income you get when you run lvl 4 missions in high sec yes.
Useful unprobable mission setups also need a way to run gatecamps, get a t3 and look how much dps it does when unprobable, covert ops cloak and interdiction nullifier. It is pretty close to zero.
You can kill an unprobable mission runner with some luck at a gate, you cannot kill him when he moves to high sec because otherwise he has to press a scan button every 10 seconds.
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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2011.05.25 07:56:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 25/05/2011 08:00:43
Originally by: EdwardNardella
These ships can easily be located in much less than 15 min in a familiar system if you care to put in the effort.
Not supported.
I'm gonna bring unprobable ship in the any system you like. If you find it within 15 minutes - you won. If you don't - i won.
I suggest entry fee at least @ 1 bil with someone like Chribba as guarantee.
The best result i'm aware of - about 30 minutes, personally i can do it in about 2 hours (not much experience, yeah).
Originally by: Furb Killer
Useful unprobable mission setups also need a way to run gatecamps, get a t3 and look how much dps it does when unprobable, covert ops cloak and interdiction nullifier. It is pretty close to zero.
You can kill an unprobable mission runner with some luck at a gate, you cannot kill him when he moves to high sec because otherwise he has to press a scan button every 10 seconds.
In certain conditions (which are heavily exploited by agentrunners) you don't need to go through gates. Just bring couple of twinks into the hub with 3+ agents - and you're done.
And, yes, this topic concerns only unscannable setups; cloaks and interdiction nullifiers are out of its scope. Please consider only unscannable vs scannable setups here, leaving interdiction nullifier and covops cloak for other topics.
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EVE Fit |
Cyberus
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
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Posted - 2011.05.30 19:58:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Cyberus on 30/05/2011 19:58:53
I will only support this idea on one codition!
If you scaned down that PVE ship and warp to the guy to finish him ( since he is already get good damage hit from NPC ) all room instatly switch agro to you ( just lke sleepers do.)
Wanna easy kills? Suck it!
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* Your signature file is broken. Please use one that will display - Fallout |
Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2011.05.31 05:39:00 -
[17]
I believe CCP will make mission NPCs smarter and a more powerful than easily killed dummies. If they will, NPCs will switch aggro, fine.
By the way, even sleepers don't always switch aggro, depending on the ships used in anomaly and tackler shiptype. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.05.31 07:46:00 -
[18]
On grid boosting only, takes care of T3 shenanigans.
Hard limit of 1.0 on the R/S ratio, takes care of unprobeable missioneers.
- Complete safety should require a person not to play the game (ie. docked). Setting the max achievable ratio at 1 should make them hard enough to find so that they have ample time to notice probes closing in.
Asking CCP to add new variables is just begging for game-breaking bugs to be introduced, so would prefer not to.
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Aineko Macx
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Posted - 2011.05.31 09:07:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Destination SkillQueue
Only cloaked ships should be unscannable. If you actively affect the universe, you should be able to be probed out. I'm fine with such ships being much harder than regular vessels to scan down, but it shouldn't be impossible.
Support for the general idea.
This.
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CCP: Where fixing bugs is a luxury, not an obligation. |
Kamikaze jihawt
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Posted - 2011.05.31 11:15:00 -
[20]
All I see here is wambulance this wambulance that. First off missioners, or anyone for that manner shouldn't be easy to probe out, period. I believe that the current system, aside from unprobable ships is too easy for people to probe other's down and attack them. Hell it usually takes 30 seconds to 1 minute to find someone. That is too easy. Here is a bargain for ya, we can get rid of unprobable ships as soon as it's not insanely easy to scan down other ships. Does that sound like a good compromise for ya? Whether you think so or not these missioners are taking some form of risk, and this is catching them at stations and/or gates. Catch a t3 ship undocking at a station and you pretty much have it made, so don't fool yourself over the fact that these missioners aren't risking a damned thing. Otherwise you just sound like a damned old fool who needs the wambulance to come and pick him up, before he drowns in his own pool of drool infested with bitterness and lies.
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Packe
Minmatar
Interstellar eXodus
BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2011.05.31 12:35:00 -
[21]
Not supported. You can find unscannable ships if you put some effort in.
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Laechyd Eldgorn
draketrain
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.05.31 13:44:00 -
[22]
sup
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Pink Marshmellow
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Posted - 2011.05.31 17:38:00 -
[23]
I cannot support this. It is working as intended, why else do you think CCP made it so that if Sensor strength is 1.05 time sig radius it makes it difficult to get scanned. If you did away with this then you made a set of defensive subs for all t3s useless, and we already have enough of those.
Unprobability gimps the ship just like cloak does, so I don't see the reason to nerf this.
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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2011.06.02 06:01:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 02/06/2011 06:01:10
Originally by: Pink Marshmellow
I cannot support this. It is working as intended
Per CCP, it's not working as intended:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1509071&page=22#653
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EVE Fit |
Jonan Hannon
Gallente
Kerensky Initiatives
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Posted - 2011.06.02 07:06:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Kadesh Priestess
Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 02/06/2011 06:01:10
Originally by: Pink Marshmellow
I cannot support this. It is working as intended
Per CCP, it's not working as intended:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1509071&page=22#653
Per my ass, one throwaway statement by CCP does not a definitive comment make.
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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2011.06.02 07:10:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Jonan Hannon
Per my ass, one throwaway statement by CCP does not a definitive comment make.
We will see. In time :)
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EVE Fit |
Mars Theran
Caldari
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.02 08:04:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Kadesh Priestess
Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 25/05/2011 09:15:09
Originally by: EdwardNardella
These ships can easily be located in much less than 15 min in a familiar system if you care to put in the effort.
Not supported.
I'm gonna bring unprobable ship in the any system you like. If you find it within 15 minutes - you won. If you don't - i won. *snip*
I don't really get 'unprobeable, and tend to assume you either do not know how to use scan probes or haven't trained the skills, but I'll address this comment anyway.
Use your DScan. It's really very simple if you have any idea how.
Warp to a celestial and align to the sun; stop ship, drop 1 Core Scanner probe and 4 Combat Probes, and cloak up if you have it/need it. (Alternatively you can sit at the Sun and look at a Celestial, which will give you better Dscan coverage, but your reference to the Solar Map will be harder to define.)
Hit solar system map, drop your Core Scanner probe on the Sun with 32 AU, and 4 Combat probes in a diamond covering the system with 32 AU overlapping coverage. Cycle your probes and drop the map.
Max Dscan range and hit 360 degree radius, then cycle the dscan. See what pops up.
Check your probe results for anomalies and note their location with relation to your ship and the sun, using the Solar System Map and moving back to ship view.
Rotate your view, (not your ship as it's your directional reference point), towards the anomalies that have ships in general area and decrease the Dscan radius to 30 degrees if those ships are available from your location.
Pinpoint which anomalies the ships are in this way, then fly to the anomaly with the 'unprobeable'/probeable ship.
If it's a Mag or something, then just scan that down, and fly to it. Problem solved.
If the ship is just sitting in a safe spot, then just scan it down. I'm pretty sure if I can scan down a drone, you can scan down an uncloaked Loki.
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Kadesh Priestess
Scalding Chill
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Posted - 2011.06.02 09:46:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Kadesh Priestess on 02/06/2011 09:46:57
You seem to underestimate my ability to find ships fast using direct scanner + probes and/or purely direct scanner. The comment you quoted actually told 'i don't believe it's possible to find ship using just directional scanner within 15 minutes'. Yes, i know how, but also i know how much time it takes, even for person who's extremely experienced at it.
Also you seem to miss understanding of how current scan system works. No, you can't probe down unprobeable loki at a safe spot.
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EVE Fit |
Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.02 21:11:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Ranka Mei on 02/06/2011 21:12:31
NOT SUPPORTED.
Pirate scum is doing their low-life mission invading too much already as it is. If people are willing to fit mods to be unprobable, then that's their prerogative.
- You have mods and skills to probe people out;
- Others have mods and skills to defend themselves against that.
And that's how it should be.
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Ranka Mei
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.02 21:23:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
On grid boosting only, takes care of T3 shenanigans.
Hard limit of 1.0 on the R/S ratio, takes care of unprobeable missioneers.
- Complete safety should require a person not to play the game (ie. docked). Setting the max achievable ratio at 1 should make them hard enough to find so that they have ample time to notice probes closing in.
Asking CCP to add new variables is just begging for game-breaking bugs to be introduced, so would prefer not to.
Translated: "I'm a whiny pirate who can't stand that my potential victims found a way to defend themselves, boo-hoo. Please, CCP, fix it for me."
You are doing the exact same thing as carebears asking CCP to put a stop to highsec suicide ganking, but then in reverse. Shame on you, and all your followers!
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