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Ris Dnalor
Minmatar
Fleet of Doom
RaVeN Federation
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Posted - 2011.05.25 16:30:00 -
[1]
I was thinking about how we've had skills removed and skill points refunded. It was very nice that we were able to re-allocate those skill points anywhere we wanted.
That being said, those skill points were originally earned over time, based on the skill's individual ability requirements and the characters current distribution of attribute points at that time. Being able to reallocate those to any skill regardless of the attribute requirements does circumvent the purpose of the attribute system.
So is this just the most efficient way to refund skill points or could it be an indication of changes to come where your skill points accumulate in a skillpoint pool, and when you get enough, you just "buy" the improved training all in one lump some, which would make character attributes null & void?
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Skippermonkey
Suddenly Ninjas
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2011.05.25 16:33:00 -
[2]
I dont know who Raven Federation are, but last thread you made sombody pointed and laughed at it.. so im going to do the same
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OLD FORUM I ♥ YOU, NEVER LEAVE ME AGAIN! |
Cys Root
Gallente
Onefix RD
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Posted - 2011.05.25 16:36:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Ris Dnalor
your skill points accumulate in a skillpoint pool, and when you get enough, you just "buy" the improved training all in one lump some
Perpetuum online works like this, and it actually works pretty good.
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Aeronwen Carys
Empire of Dust
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Posted - 2011.05.25 16:41:00 -
[4]
Um, you acquire skill points by training skills, so where, pray tell do you expect this pool of skill points to come from? As for the removal of other skills, that has always been because of a fairly major change to the way in which those particular skills were tied in with various aspects of the game.
Learning skills were removed because the devs had always hated them and giving everyone those SP back to reallocate as they saw fit was not only the most sensible idea but was also, in a way, an apology for not doing it sooner (or maybe even for putting them in in the first place lol).
With regards the reimbursement of the social skill SP, although the same mechanism was employed, it was for a very different reason. Since the mission agents had been fundamentally altered (for the better) and people could now easily distinguish between various agent types, it only made sense to alter the skill requirements and then allow the players to train only the skills relevant to them and allowing them to use the other SP as they wanted.
The idea of a skill point "pool" is a bit silly to be honest with you, and not something we ever need worry about, the two incidents of SP reimbursement are NOT setting a precedent for a massive shift in the way skills are trained in future.
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Yakov Pavlov
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Posted - 2011.05.25 16:53:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Aeronwen Carys
The idea of a skill point "pool" is a bit silly to be honest with you, and not something we ever need worry about, the two incidents of SP reimbursement are NOT setting a precedent for a massive shift in the way skills are trained in future.
Spoken with such vacuous authority.
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Cys Root
Gallente
Onefix RD
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Posted - 2011.05.25 16:54:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Aeronwen Carys
The idea of a skill point "pool" is a bit silly to be honest with you, and not something we ever need worry about, the two incidents of SP reimbursement are NOT setting a precedent for a massive shift in the way skills are trained in future.
The difference with a skill point pool is that one does not actively train skills, you are ALWAYS gathering SP's 24/7 as long as your sub is active. When you need a skill you simply shift SP's from your pool and "buy" that skill. It works well enough for PO but for EvE I guess it would be "dumbing down the game"
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.05.25 16:54:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Akita T on 25/05/2011 16:55:57
Like the above people pointed out, it can work with skillpoint-like pool accumulation, the way it does in Perpetuum.
But they still have attributes though. What they do is tweak the costs of "buying" a skill level.
Long story short, you could have something like this : your ACCOUNT gains 1 "skillpoint buy point" every minute while your account is active, and then whenever you apply those points (to ANY character on the account), you for each applied you receive 2x primary attribute + 1x secondary attribute in skillpoints.
Conversely, you can do it the other way around, with purchasing a level, with the cost being equal to the current SP count difference divided by (2*prim+1*sec) attribute scores.
Almost the same thing in the LONG RUN, really.
The only difference is that you can wait until the last minute to decide which skill you train, and the skillqueue becomes meaningless, as you will never actually have a skill in training, and you always gain "skill buy points" at the exact same rate while subscribed.
Heck, you could even make it so that people gain 43,200 "skill buy points" at the start of each 30-day payment period (and new accounts gain 20,160 or 30,240 depending on whether they're on a 14 or 21 day trial), this way people could "get into things" a whole damn lot faster early on. Or just make it 1,440 points at creation and then +1,440 points at each downtime.
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The question is - is this really necessary ?
Or better still - is not TOO "dumbed down" ?
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Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Ira Theos
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Posted - 2011.05.25 17:00:00 -
[8]
I like cake... do you ?
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Barakkus
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Posted - 2011.05.25 17:03:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 25/05/2011 16:55:57
Like the above people pointed out, it can work with skillpoint-like pool accumulation, the way it does in Perpetuum.
But they still have attributes though. What they do is tweak the costs of "buying" a skill level.
Long story short, you could have something like this : your ACCOUNT gains 1 "skillpoint buy point" every minute while your account is active, and then whenever you apply those points (to ANY character on the account), you for each applied you receive 2x primary attribute + 1x secondary attribute in skillpoints.
Conversely, you can do it the other way around, with purchasing a level, with the cost being equal to the current SP count difference divided by (2*prim+1*sec) attribute scores.
Almost the same thing in the LONG RUN, really.
The only difference is that you can wait until the last minute to decide which skill you train, and the skillqueue becomes meaningless, as you will never actually have a skill in training, and you always gain "skill buy points" at the exact same rate while subscribed.
Heck, you could even make it so that people gain 43,200 "skill buy points" at the start of each 30-day payment period (and new accounts gain 20,160 or 30,240 depending on whether they're on a 14 or 21 day trial), this way people could "get into things" a whole damn lot faster early on. Or just make it 1,440 points at creation and then +1,440 points at each downtime.
__
The question is - is this really necessary ?
Or better still - is not TOO "dumbed down" ?
Or let people buy SP with $$ 
...sorry I couldn't resist... *waits for thread to go directly to hell*
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[SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring |
stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.25 17:08:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ris Dnalor
So is this just the most efficient way to refund skill points or could it be an indication of changes to come where your skill points accumulate in a skillpoint pool, and when you get enough, you just "buy" the improved training all in one lump some, which would make character attributes null & void?
Or character attributes provide a cost reduction. Having a high charisma would mean that charisma skills only cost 80% of their value. Probably not a good idea because a) math is hard for some people, and b) folks would become way too focused on attribute respecs as a means of maximizing their skill point value. Meaning, a per/will char would put off training that int/mem skill now, and would stockpile the skill points for an int/mem remap. Folks would then start to demand more frequent respecs or PLEX for respecs.
Stockpiling versus Training
Pros:
* no need for a skill queue
* no need to worry about not having a skill trained
* no need to pause training when putting implants in, clone jumping, etc.
* no need to reimburse folks with skillpoints for extended downtimes.
* no need to train long skills for patches
Cons:
* CCP would have to do something about attributes
* the forum community manager would need to fill out a Fleet Fight Notification form to get a server cluster dedicated to the resulting attribute change threadnaught
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"Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you!
-- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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Val'Dore
Word Bearers of Chaos
Word of Chaos Undivided
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Posted - 2011.05.25 17:12:00 -
[11]
Originally by: stoicfaux
* CCP would have to do something about attributes
Actually CCP wouldn't have to change attributes. Each Pooled Point would be worth a unit of time and the time factor of each attributes effect on skills would be able to remain as it is now without any change.
Generic Skill V would take just as 'long' as before.
~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~
Tiericide |
CORPSE FEMALE
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Posted - 2011.05.25 17:15:00 -
[12]
MY ATTRIBUTES ARE TOO IMPORTANT TO THROW AWAY
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Shiera Kuni
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2011.05.25 17:16:00 -
[13]
Originally by: CORPSE FEMALE
MY ATTRIBUTES ARE TOO IMPORTANT TO THROW AWAY
For the love of Odin, kill it!
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My Trollifier is fully loaded with Flamepedos and ready to bring down your Failageddon.
My cloak of internet anonymity is perfect, the win is mine. |
Mister Rocknrolla
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Posted - 2011.05.25 17:29:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Mister Rocknrolla on 25/05/2011 17:33:02
Edited by: Mister Rocknrolla on 25/05/2011 17:30:39
Originally by: CORPSE FEMALE
MY ATTRIBUTES ARE TOO IMPORTANT TO THROW AWAY
That hat you're wearing makes you look dumb.
Quote:
The idea of a skill point "pool" is a bit silly to be honest with you, and not something we ever need worry about, the two incidents of SP reimbursement are NOT setting a precedent for a massive shift in the way skills are trained in future.
That's what all of the anti-learning skill removal folks and anti-agent change people said about those changes.
The SP reimbursement mechanic is like finding the "god-mode" cheat in a game. You claim you're just going to use it this one time to get through a difficult level. But then you start using it over and over again. You find ways to justify it in you mind..."I just want to experience the content." etc.
The genie is out of the bottle. I'm sure we'll see more and more 'innovative' justification for SP reimbursement.
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Joe Skellington
Minmatar
JOKAS Industries
Matari Legion
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Posted - 2011.05.25 18:01:00 -
[15]
They also have taken out player standings with each other, so I wouldn't doubt further dumbing down.
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Yakov Pavlov
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Posted - 2011.05.25 18:03:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Mister Rocknrolla
I'm sure we'll see more and more 'innovative' justification for SP reimbursement.
And I'm sure that innovation will somehow be related to PLEX sales/purchases. Its really the only innovation CCP has left.
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Barakkus
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Posted - 2011.05.25 18:03:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Joe Skellington
They also have taken out player standings with each other, so I wouldn't doubt further dumbing down.
Last I looked this morning there were still standings, it's just color coded instead of numerical now.
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[SERVICE] Corp Standings For POS anchoring |
Sig Sour
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Posted - 2011.05.25 18:05:00 -
[18]
Nope, next thing to go is player created goods, everything will be shifted into NPC created goods.
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Yakov Pavlov
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Posted - 2011.05.25 18:05:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Yakov Pavlov on 25/05/2011 18:05:46
Originally by: Barakkus
Last I looked this morning there were still standings, it's just color coded instead of numerical now.
The OP meant this > http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1513943
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stoicfaux
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.05.25 18:08:00 -
[20]
Also, (because every thread about CCP and Eve features should have at least one WoD reference,) I imagine that CCP doesn't want WoD to have quite the learning curve that Eve is known for.
A simplified skillpoint pool would be a potentially easy thing to implement in Eve, and then carry over to WoD. <Insert standard comment about how Eve is being used to test WoD features here> so it wouldn't be far-fetched to see such a system implemented in Eve, tested by Eve players and migrated to WoD.
Never mind that skillpools synergize easily with micro transactions (i.e. money for skill points.)
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"Are you a sociopathic paranoid schizophrenic with accounting skills? We have the game for you!
-- Eve, the game of Alts, Economics, Machiavelli, and PvP"
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EnslaverOfMinmatar
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.05.25 18:49:00 -
[21]
Give me back my 3 charisma.
uʍop ǝpısdn ǝɹnʇɐuƃıs ʎɯ ƃuıpɐǝɹ ǝɹɐ noʎ |
Dr Larry Goldstein
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Posted - 2011.05.25 18:53:00 -
[22]
Next plan should be to give everyone a carrier.
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Mr Kidd
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Posted - 2011.05.25 21:17:00 -
[23]
Originally by: stoicfaux
Stockpiling versus Training
Pros:
* no need for a skill queue
* no need to worry about not having a skill trained
Dude, how else would CCP artificially buff it's daily player stats?
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Warzon3
Solar Storm
Sev3rance
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Posted - 2011.05.25 22:10:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Warzon3 on 25/05/2011 22:14:05
Originally by: EnslaverOfMinmatar
Give me back my 3 charisma.
I still have my 3 charisma
and 3 remaps
and -2 unassigned attribute points
edit: apparently CCP set all the attributes to a base of 17 (base of 5 and 12 attribute points you would get from skills) and they just made my 3 charisma into 17 as well instead of 15
so I am one of the few with 121 attribute points (implants not taken into account) and when I remap I will lose 2 of them and be a normal guy with 119
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Originally by: CCP Zymurgist
Downtime is now extended to 19:00 for patch file verification. This is a very important step that must be done to make sure clients are being corrupted.
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Sisohiv
Gallente
Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2011.05.26 00:00:00 -
[25]
Well that would be silly.
Next you would accuse them of doing it with faction loyalty points. Make something stupid like an LP store.
Oh wait.. |
Joe Skellington
Minmatar
JOKAS Industries
Matari Legion
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Posted - 2011.05.26 00:54:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Joe Skellington on 26/05/2011 00:54:55
Originally by: Yakov Pavlov
Edited by: Yakov Pavlov on 25/05/2011 18:05:46
Originally by: Barakkus
Last I looked this morning there were still standings, it's just color coded instead of numerical now.
The OP meant this > http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1513943
Yes indeed, I meant player to player faction/npc standings. Sorry I wasn't clear. Thanks :)
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Lady Spank
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.05.26 01:51:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Warzon3
Edited by: Warzon3 on 25/05/2011 22:14:05
Originally by: EnslaverOfMinmatar
Give me back my 3 charisma.
I still have my 3 charisma
and 3 remaps
and -2 unassigned attribute points
edit: apparently CCP set all the attributes to a base of 17 (base of 5 and 12 attribute points you would get from skills) and they just made my 3 charisma into 17 as well instead of 15
so I am one of the few with 121 attribute points (implants not taken into account) and when I remap I will lose 2 of them and be a normal guy with 119
THIS 
Also, if you can pre-empt what CCP are going to nerf skillpoint wise then this is expolitable... Otherwise you are in the same situation as every other player.
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VCBee 2fast2furious
Aliastra
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Posted - 2011.05.26 08:50:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Cys Root
Originally by: Ris Dnalor
your skill points accumulate in a skillpoint pool, and when you get enough, you just "buy" the improved training all in one lump some
Perpetuum online works like this, and it actually works pretty good.
Saying 'Perpetuum works like this' is a pretty sure sign that its a terrible idea that nobody should touch with a 10 foot pole.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2011.05.26 09:20:00 -
[29]
Quote:
Almost the same thing in the LONG RUN, really.
nailed it
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salty Milk
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Posted - 2011.05.26 09:37:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Barakkus
Or let people buy SP with $$
...sorry I couldn't resist... *waits for thread to go directly to hell*
they already do
the only backlash is against changing the rate at which an sp can be purchased despite the backlasher not understanding why he is backlashing or what he is backlashing against
there isnt a single sp in all of eve that isnt paid for with $
this is the simple fact the jealous fearful naysayers can never really understand |
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