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Nerfing Super Carriers will change nothing

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MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2011.05.30 11:08:00 - [121] Originally by: Leysritt I hear people whining... bla bla... yadda yadda Look man, you can't have your semi-invincible one-size-fits-all pwnmobile. Get over it. Enjoy it while it lasts, however long that may be.
Fredrick Engly RaVal Thyokill Industies Inc. Intergalactic Exports Group	Posted - 2011.05.30 11:11:00 - [122] CCP have a model to adhere to which was agreed with icelandic banks Introduce new content... make players pay real money...devalue it... Get used to it guys...this is the new CCP
Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2011.05.30 11:25:00 - [123] Originally by: riddick Liddell Every ship in EVE is expected to role out, except the Super Carrier. It gets to tank and gank. They need to pick and choose as is the mantra of EVE. Or make every ship like the Super Carrier. A one size fits all solution, drop the idea that all combat ends in a killmail and come up with another goal for the games PvP. Is it wrong that I actually sort of like the sound of this? ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
slgh	Posted - 2011.05.31 06:33:00 - [124] Edited by: slgh on 31/05/2011 06:35:28 Edited by: slgh on 31/05/2011 06:34:35 i like the guys who are saying supercarriers dont have to be much better than other ships because some stupid highsec mission runners spend billons of isk for officer mods which are also not much better then the normal ones this really makes me laugh these modules are for high sec mission runners who dont know what to do with their isk they were never worth their costs a supercarrier is a ship for pvp and you take a high risk using it has to be worth it big costs most of the people here will never have enough isk to buy a supercap they just cry for nerves i like it i think sc are fine if you want to nerve something do it with the high end moons of the big alliances this is the reason why they can bring so much of these ships and dont care if they die
Demolishar	Posted - 2011.05.31 06:36:00 - [125] If cost isn't a balancing factor, why doesn't everyone just fly Titans? They do like twice as much DPS, have the same EHP, and have Doomsday...
Cloaky Daggery	Posted - 2011.05.31 07:16:00 - [126] Originally by: Demolishar If cost isn't a balancing factor, why doesn't everyone just fly Titans? They do like twice as much DPS, have the same EHP, and have Doomsday... Everyone knows that titans are only needed to jump bridge people....I do not wish to be a taxi service. SC's for me.
El'Niaga Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2011.05.31 07:38:00 - [127] I agree with the OP that Supercarriers do not need nerfing. I'm not sure that titans need a buff though. My solution would be some sort of drone interdictor. A level 3 Interdictor, the Drone Interdictor would fire a Drone Interdiction Probe, which attacks and damages drones/fighters/fighter-bombers and nothing else in its radius. A more stout version would be the Heavy Drone Interdictor, a Level 3 Heavy Interdictor. In place of the Warp Disruption Bubble ability it has a Drone Interdiction Module that creates a similar bubble that damages drones/fighters/fighter-bombers and nothing else. Damage on each would cycle every 5 seconds, and deal damage sufficient to kill fighter-bombers in under a minute. (Note once the drones/fighters/fighter-bombers left the sphere of influence they'd stop taking damage, so you could recall them and have your picket ships deal with the Drone Interdictor. Another option is you need a level 3 Dreadnought on the same firepower level as the Supercarrier. They could possibly be given some sort of Flak Cannons that deal damage in an area radius (like 15km) and are gauged such that they deal maximum damage to the Supercarrier while not overly damaging subcaps and thus preventing them being overly useful in PVE as well. Flak Cannon ammo would need to be expensive on the level of cost of bombs.
Shawna Gray Gallente	Posted - 2011.05.31 07:54:00 - [128] Originally by: xxxak fiffffft. You are terribad. A 20 billion isk investment ought to mean something. You can't even concretely point to a single time that you have died to super caps in the last 12 months. If I didn't "know better" I'd call you a troll. Haha your super is getting nerfed. Get used to it.
Jaari Val'Dara Caldari Deep Space Nomads Corp	Posted - 2011.05.31 08:17:00 - [129] Originally by: slgh most of the people here will never have enough isk to buy a supercap they just cry for nerves i like it This is the problem, no single player should ever have enough isk to buy himself a SC. NEVER!!!
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island	Posted - 2011.05.31 08:19:00 - [130] boost supercarriers! I can fly a Hel but I'm in a ** poor alliance Plus I'd lose it in a gatecamp Originally by:** Xenuria I don't need a LICENSE to take a photoshooped image and lay it on top of the game client and make pretend my character is naked.

Cloaky Daggery	Posted - 2011.05.31 08:24:00 - [131] They should just add automated fighter defenses to all ships. Which would damage the fighters/fighter bombers at the rate of 1% damage per 5 seconds or something.
Langoss	Posted - 2011.05.31 08:43:00 - [132] SC is fine. The main problem is that power blocks can deploy 200-300 sc in a system and you can not do anything...
WrednaMalpa	Posted - 2011.05.31 09:03:00 - [133] Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara Originally by: slgh most of the people here will never have enough isk to buy a supercap they just cry for nerves i like it This is the problem, no single player should ever have enough isk to buy himself a SC. NEVER!!! Yes, make any isk above market price of SC vanish from players wallet !
LordInvisible Gallente Nova Ardour	Posted - 2011.05.31 10:08:00 - [134] Jezz, so much discussion and nothing worth reading. Problem is next: SC's are good against capitals AND subcapitals. Just make FB totally ineffective against anything smaller then carrier and u are done. Ether make sig res of FBs like very large, so they only do damage to something big or nerf tracking speed so if BS is moving with 30m/s, FBs dont hit. You can even go further and introduce triage kind of mode to SCs for launching FBs. Ship does not disappear in "triage" mode either. Same with DD. DD should have some signature resolution. Next problem: Massive EHP. Make them active tankers. Simple as that. Give bonuses to active tanks and reduce starting EHP. Make them die to neuts. Next problem is committing SCs to a fight. This is not only SC problem, but also problem with logistics in empire/lowsec. Once u are in a fight, all points should be off you before u can jump/dock, no matter what kind of aggression u have (but still, aggression has to be present, undocking in a iteron into blob should still be viable to dock back ASAP.). And last problem is with cyno gens. Cyno gen should have warmup period depending on what kind of mass is jumping through. Carriers should have jumpin delay of 15seconds while larger ships should have 30secs for example. Any of above two changes would be awesome. Changing disappear timer is not gonna happen, since it breaks other stuff too.. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "For me EvE wasn't that much fun, many ppl refer to it as a nicely designed database front-end and that
Agent 42 Gallente The. Unit.	Posted - 2011.05.31 10:26:00 - [135] Give dreads a range bonus to smartbombs
LordInvisible Gallente Nova Ardour	Posted - 2011.05.31 10:27:00 - [136] Originally by: Agent 42 Give dreads a range bonus to smartbombs That doesnt solve hotdropping a BC problem, does it? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: "For me EvE wasn't that much fun, many ppl refer to it as a nicely designed database front-end and that
Ivana Twinkle GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation	Posted - 2011.05.31 10:28:00 - [137] Delete all ships other than Rifters from eve.
Cambarus The Baros Syndicate	Posted - 2011.05.31 14:17:00 - [138] Originally by: LordInvisible Jezz, so much discussion and nothing worth reading. Problem is next: SC's are good against capitals AND subcapitals. Just make FB totally ineffective against anything smaller then carrier and u are done. Ether make sig res of FBs like very large, so they only do damage to something big or nerf tracking speed so if BS is moving with 30m/s, FBs dont hit. Nothing worth reading...I've made that exact same suggestion like three times in this thread alone Originally by: LordInvisible You can even go further and introduce triage kind of mode to SCs for launching FBs. Ship does not disappear in "triage" mode either. Not a bad idea tbh, but IMO it would be easier to just say that ship being target warp disrupted don't disappear when they log for 15 minutes since the last point gets removed. Originally by: LordInvisible Next problem: Massive EHP. Make them active tankers. Simple as that. Give bonuses to active tanks and reduce starting EHP. Make them die to neuts. This is a TERRIBLE idea. The EHP is the only way to make them survivable in the big fleet fights in which they participate. There is simply no way to balance an active tank in such a way as to make it useful in big fleets, while not being completely unkillable to smaller ones. Think of it this way: If SCs lost their ability to ** subcaps, even a small gang of BSs/Logis and a hictor or 2 could kill one, given enough time, because no active tank means that even though it takes a lot of damage to kill one, none of that damage gets negated. Think now, of how much active tank would be needed to make SCs viable in fleet fights. Anything under 2-300k DPS tanked and it would melt in seconds (keep in mind that even assuming a modest 5k DPS per dread, it would only take 60 or so to break that tank, and fielding 60 dreads is trivial for large alliances). Oh but cap will surely make them killable by smaller gangs! Nope. If you give them enough cap vulnerability to get neuted down by a gang of 10-15, they will get insta-neuted in a fleet fight, and suddenly you'll be looking at something costing 20bil taking less than 5 seconds to die. Originally by:** LordInvisible And last problem is with cyno gens. Cyno gen should have warmup period depending on what kind of mass is jumping through. Carriers should have jumpin delay of 15seconds while larger ships should have 30secs for example. I already mentioned something like this, though IMO 30 seconds is not enough. Originally by: LordInvisible Any of above two changes would be awesome. Changing disappear timer is not gonna happen, since it breaks other stuff too.. Like what? Anything that isn't a capital/SC is undoubtedly going to die if it's being pointed for 15+ minutes, so not disappearing until 15 minutes since the last point gets dropped wouldn't change much on the sub-cap front.
Eternum Praetorian PWNED Factor	Posted - 2011.05.31 14:33:00 - [139] Originally by: LordInvisible Jezz, so many words in a post and nothing worth reading Alternatively: So all of your supers are getting nerfed? Bahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!11!!!! Waffles and U mad bra? Nuff said.
S7E	Posted - 2011.05.31 14:45:00 - [140] People *** and moan cause of the amount of supers out there. Remember when they where MOMS? and you rarely saw em? killing one also made the kill much more lucrative than it is now because it was a MOM. The reason they were hardly seen is because, they had no real tactical use for the amount of isk that had to be pumped into building one. Because of the changes upon the MOM, which is now a super, it is cheaper to build and they bring tactical advantages to fights. That said they aren't the win button. Their an over-sized carrier that is still easy to ** with. They reason why the large alliances have so many is because they sit on their arse ratting all day in order to get them, and when it gets blown up, they buy a new one. Or take PL for example, they get there's given to them for doing jobs etc...or buy them with the amount of isk they get given to attack alliances. It was inevitable that supers would become the favored ship in capital warfare, the majority of capital fights I have seen in the past few months have more supers in them than carriers, carriers are only dropped in for repping supers nowadays, and dreads are only seen in the medium sized alliances that don't have access to a fleet of supers.

Tammarr	Posted - 2011.05.31 14:46:00 - [141] "You can even go further and introduce triage kind of mode to SCs for launching FBs. Ship does not disappear in "triage" mode either." This is probably one of the best and simplest ideas I've seen in awhile. 'Start your Deployment cycles to be able to field more fighterbombers then 5.'
Eternum Praetorian PWNED Factor	Posted - 2011.05.31 15:01:00 - [142] Originally by: Tammarr "You can even go further and introduce triage kind of mode to SCs for launching FBs. Ship does not disappear in "triage" mode either." This is probably one of the best and simplest ideas I've seen in awhile. 'Start your Deployment cycles to be able to field more fighterbombers then 5.' Well then you have never seen a pair supers shred a small fleet of capitals in only a few minutes then have you?
Eyeama Spy	Posted - 2011.05.31 15:01:00 - [143] Nerfing super carriers will change things, it will make me happy and **** off a load of supercap flyers. Why not just make fighterbomers a flyable frigate class, so supercaps can start dieing to fleets of noobs, plus give dreadnaughts a anti supercap damage bonus, maybe an extra 300% against a supercap
Ana Vyr	Posted - 2011.05.31 15:04:00 - [144] Imagine a new type of EWAR that allows you to "hack" the control of drones/fighters/bombers and allows you to temporarily turn them on their original controller. Would something like that help at all?
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2011.05.31 15:18:00 - [145] Edited by: Furb Killer on 31/05/2011 15:25:10 Originally by: Ana Vyr Imagine a new type of EWAR that allows you to "hack" the control of drones/fighters/bombers and allows you to temporarily turn them on their original controller. Would something like that help at all? No, SCs need a big hit by the nerf bat. Btw @ people who think SCs are only available in such numbers due to high end moons. Ever considered the DRF? You know the group with the largest ammount of supercaps? The reason why not everyone is flying a supercap is probably mainly a production issue, but at the rate at which new supercaps are produced you dont have to worry too much, hunderds of them are produced now per month, a fraction of that dies per month. But sure keep supercaps in their current state, also dont forget to inform new players they shouldnt whine and dont belong outside high sec anyway until they can fly a supercap.
Punctator	Posted - 2011.05.31 15:21:00 - [146] i think sc and titans should be easier to catch. they should have bonus to warp stenght but no immunity. in my opinion: sc = +3 warp tit = +5 warp.
Josefine Etrange Gallente	Posted - 2011.05.31 15:30:00 - [147] Originally by: Cambarus Confirming that what you THINK you're saying and what you're ACTUALLY saying are not the same. Here, let me show you: Originally by: Liang Nuren You absolutely are evading the point. Cost is not a balancing concern when it comes to core mechanics. See? Here you are making a point that states that price is not related to core game mechanics Let me help you IF Mechanic does not Break CORE_GAME_MECHANIK THEN USE for Balance ELSE Mechanic anyway crap and the game already broken The broken isk scaling is already a game breaker according to liam. You can use the scheme for everything else too. If it does break your game, you should not use it ;-) You seem to have problems with sentences that you more than one condition to determine the result of the sentence.
Sandrestal	Posted - 2011.05.31 15:39:00 - [148] There was a time when people complained about how fast certain ships (sabre's in particular) could fly and said how unfair it was. CCP one day took the nerf bat and balanced all ships speed limits. I think when CCP finally does address the SC issue, a lot more than just SC's will be balanced. Will be interesting to see what the results are.
Liang Nuren	Posted - 2011.05.31 15:53:00 - [149] Originally by: Cambarus Originally by: LordInvisible Next problem: Massive EHP. Make them active tankers. Simple as that. Give bonuses to active tanks and reduce starting EHP. Make them die to neuts. This is a TERRIBLE idea. The EHP is the only way to make them survivable in the big fleet fights in which they participate. There is simply no way to balance an active tank in such a way as to make it useful in big fleets, while not being completely unkillable to smaller ones. Think of it this way: If SCs lost their ability to **** subcaps, even a small gang of BSs/Logis and a hictor or 2 could kill one, given enough time, because no active tank means that even though it takes a lot of damage to kill one, none of that damage gets negated. Think now, of how much active tank would be needed to make SCs viable in fleet fights. Anything under 2-300k DPS tanked and it would melt in seconds (keep in mind that even assuming a modest 5k DPS per dread, it would only take 60 or so to break that tank, and fielding 60 dreads is trivial for large alliances). Oh but cap will surely make them killable by smaller gangs! Nope. If you give them enough cap vulnerability to get neuted down by a gang of 10-15, they will get insta-neuted in a fleet fight, and suddenly you'll be looking at something costing 20bil taking less than 5 seconds to die. Just because it cots 20 bil doesn't mean it should have staying power when primaried by massive fleets of dreads+battleships. Think about this, because its really really important. I would further argue that ewar immunity is effectively meaningless when SCs are used where they're "supposed to be" - in fleets of thousands of ships with HICs all over the place. All it really does is give them a free ride for ***ing with solo/small gangs (especially in low sec where HICs aren't at full strength). IMO, ewar immunity (ECM, Damp, etc) is fine (even cool). Tackle immunity isn't. As to small gangs, a Bhaalgorn will neut a Nyx completely dry in under 5 minutes. In reality, much less than that because they don't have that much cap recharge, and its not like they come cyno'ing in with full cap. Neuting has always* been the small gang counter to massive active tanks. Furthermore, making SCs active tank puts them in the same threat class as all other capitals. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
xxxak Caldari Infinite Improbability Inc -Mostly Harmless-	Posted - 2011.05.31 16:05:00 - [150] Originally by: LordInvisible Jezz, so much discussion and nothing worth reading. Problem is next: SC's are good against capitals AND subcapitals. Just make FB totally ineffective against anything smaller then carrier and u are done. Ether make sig res of FBs like very large, so they only do damage to something big or nerf tracking speed so if BS is moving with 30m/s, FBs dont hit. You can even go further and introduce triage kind of mode to SCs for launching FBs. Ship does not disappear in "triage" mode either. Same with DD. DD should have some signature resolution. Next problem: Massive EHP. Make them active tankers. Simple as that. Give bonuses to active tanks and reduce starting EHP. Make them die to neuts. Next problem is committing SCs to a fight. This is not only SC problem, but also problem with logistics in empire/lowsec. Once u are in a fight, all points should be off you before u can jump/dock, no matter what kind of aggression u have (but still, aggression has to be present, undocking in a iteron into blob should still be viable to dock back ASAP.). And last problem is with cyno gens. Cyno gen should have warmup period depending on what kind of mass is jumping through. Carriers should have jumpin delay of 15seconds while larger ships should have 30secs for example. Any of above two changes would be awesome. Changing disappear timer is not gonna happen, since it breaks other stuff too.. You are an effing moron who clearly knows nothign about super carriers and is just talking out of his ***. 1) FB already do zero damage to anything smaller than a carrier. 2) "Make them die to neuts" -- so, die to any fleet bigger than 15-20? 3) You want to make them as easy to tackle as carriers? OK -- then let me dock too.



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