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Some concerns with the upcoming missile changes

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Hanns	Posted - 2005.02.15 15:35:00 - [1] just a few things that worry me for raven pilots, ok take this example, a frigate is webbed and stationary, and gets shot by a large turret, the turret will still hit it hard right because its not moving? but with the proposed missie changes, a torp will still hit the stationary frig for next to no damage? Or if a frig is webbed by an intie, and theres a tempest 100km away, the tempest will waste the frig, but the raven will still do crapy damage, not enough to kill it the same as a apoc or tempest could. basicly all turret battleships can fit sniper setups that can hit for full damage, but once the missile changes take affect, the raven will never be able to dea lfull damage to a smaller ship, no matter the circumstances. this just dosent seem right. BTW im not against the missile changes, i actually greet it with open arms, as when i fly my HAC the only Battleship i have to worry about is a torp spamming raven, but i think the way its going to be implimented it a bit weird. Also HACs will become immune to BS's, because i know ATM that i can tank any BS, the only one thats a problem is the torp raven and a gankgeddon, but the geddon has no defences so he can die fast also i can move in close and it cant hit me. i have a feeling the missile changes are gonna hurt the caldari to much.
Captain Rod	Posted - 2005.02.15 15:45:00 - [2] Be patient mate. Remember. You havent got tech 2 capability or skills yet. I would expect IF its gonna be balanced that your tech 1 set up may suck but it will probably end up owning everyone again shortly after you train for t2 stuff.
Parallax Error	Posted - 2005.02.15 15:53:00 - [3] What exactly is the current line of thinking on missile changes?
Brady	Posted - 2005.02.15 15:54:00 - [4] Where'd you get the info on the upcoming missile changes? I'd like to have a read.
Marcus Aurelius	Posted - 2005.02.15 15:55:00 - [5] Originally by: Parallax Error What exactly is the current line of thinking on missile changes? Indeed, wondering myself too about that. As I see it there's two options: - introducing sig radius effect to make large missiles do less damage to smaller targets then to bigger ones. - fiddling aorund with individual missiles and their agility, range, damage and speed etc. tbh option two would seem much preferable, since nr1 just makes no sense and still wont end the "one size fits all" problem that is missiles and launchers.
Bad'Boy	Posted - 2005.02.15 15:58:00 - [6] they'll probobly make 100new skills to train...like they are going to do with EW.. B.A.D.B.O.Y.: Biomechanical Android Designed for Battle and Online Yelling "Bad Boys,Bad Boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when WE come for yoU"
Hanns	Posted - 2005.02.15 15:58:00 - [7] Originally by: Marcus Aurelius Originally by: Parallax Error What exactly is the current line of thinking on missile changes? Indeed, wondering myself too about that. As I see it there's two options: - introducing sig radius effect to make large missiles do less damage to smaller targets then to bigger ones. - fiddling aorund with individual missiles and their agility, range, damage and speed etc. tbh option two would seem much preferable, since nr1 just makes no sense and still wont end the "one size fits all" problem that is missiles and launchers. Ive read that the agility idea is to complicated, and CCP wont be able to impliment it, which leaves the sig radius change, which is where my concerns arise.
Brady	Posted - 2005.02.15 16:12:00 - [8] Y'know a really simple fix would be to make missiles and torps slower, so that the small fast ships can escape em easily. That pretty much is an agility modifier. Who's gonna shoot a torp at a frigate if the torp only does 500m/s? What if small missiles did 1600m/s, and if cruise did only 700m/s. This is only an example but it would make the missiles work the way they should.
3GG H34D	Posted - 2005.02.15 16:15:00 - [9] Edited by: 3GG H34D on 15/02/2005 16:15:25 Yeah then the raven would be rubbish, as it would take so long for the dmg to reach the victim, that u would be long dead to the turret cowboys. ---------------------------------------------- Think u know 1337?, you dont know nuffink! Û_±ý+´Åõk*Áu/°÷_¸Ã=5ò@Q@Q@M_?ZåñIîbåÈT~p¶4y+ðÊ%£= p¶4ÀiÔmZã!À©ì¦:BãÌ6xi Ö
Brady	Posted - 2005.02.15 16:16:00 - [10] I'm a raven pilot myself, but I'd rather a slow torp than one that does 5hp damage.

Jim Steele	Posted - 2005.02.15 16:24:00 - [11] Originally by: Brady Y'know a really simple fix would be to make missiles and torps slower, so that the small fast ships can escape em easily. That pretty much is an agility modifier. Who's gonna shoot a torp at a frigate if the torp only does 500m/s? What if small missiles did 1600m/s, and if cruise did only 700m/s. This is only an example but it would make the missiles work the way they should. yeah good idea then bs pilots would be able to outrun misiles using a mwd meaning ravens would totally suck. The frigates particularry tl2 intys can already out-run torps and cruise if they fit a mwd and frigates are not supposed to be able to solo bs they just arnt supposed to die with one shot. You could modify this isea so that missile speed is proportional to sig radius. Thus long range would be an option but i dont like that either as then you'd never no where you were with missile but my personal oppinion is that they have damage proportional to sig radius, so a BS would still get the full whack, and frigates would get hit just not for full damage, mabye at similar damage as lights but of course the rof is much slower for siege launchers. Death to the Galante
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.02.15 16:25:00 - [12] Originally by: Brady Y'know a really simple fix would be to make missiles and torps slower, so that the small fast ships can escape em easily. That pretty much is an agility modifier. Who's gonna shoot a torp at a frigate if the torp only does 500m/s? What if small missiles did 1600m/s, and if cruise did only 700m/s. This is only an example but it would make the missiles work the way they should. This doesn't work because then a Raven is helpless against long range battleship setups. Which would make them useless in PvP, especially fleet battles. Caldari ships are generally very slow, massive, and ponderous but have the best targetting range. They're meant for long range combat with missiles and railguns. Missiles are -ALREADY- close to useless at long range combat even with cruise missiles travelling at about 2,500m/s. The only issue I see with torpedoes is their flight time is too long, other than that I think they are okay as is. Cruise missiles should be faster but have issues against smaller ships in most circumstances. That being said, small missiles should be MUCH FASTER with a SHORT FLIGHT TIME. Thus keeping their range at a sane level for frigate combat and giving them the ability to deal damage to other frigates. Hanns concerns are very valid, in some circumstances, with the right equipment and range, a large turret is very much capable of hitting a frigate, but with these changes, a Raven will always be helpless against a frigate no matter the situation. Missiles need more skills added to the skilltree, to be much faster, and they need to work out some sort of system where frigates in most circumstances are not WTFPWNED by the larger missiles --but aren't 100% immune--. Frigates aren't 100% immune to large turrets so why should they be immune to torpedoes and cruise missiles? If a mega pulse beam creams a frigate at 45km, a cruise missiles should too. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
Brady	Posted - 2005.02.15 16:30:00 - [13] I'd have to be in total agreement. CCP need to be carefull what they do here.
MachineMk2	Posted - 2005.02.15 16:32:00 - [14] Hopefully we'll see what their intent is soon. Until then I am just not going to get riled up...well...I'll try not to anyway.
Hanns	Posted - 2005.02.15 16:34:00 - [15] wow jim is back, is that the real jim? if so, WB m8 missed your constructive posts about balancing etc..
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.02.15 16:38:00 - [16] Originally by: Hanns wow jim is back, is that the real jim? if so, WB m8 missed your constructive posts about balancing etc.. yes it is ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
Sky Hunter	Posted - 2005.02.15 17:20:00 - [17] i really hope T2 missles will not cost 20k ISK per unit. And we get something more noticeable then +100-200 m/s speed and +50-70dmg. If you goin to make T1 missles next to useless, then make T2 missles and laucnhers good to deal with T2 Turrets guys. Not dmg like a citadel torp, but i would like to see +50% velocity to cruise and +50% dmg. -=-
Face Lifter	Posted - 2005.02.15 17:30:00 - [18] I think the current movement is to turn missiles into a turret that's cause people keep comparing turrets with missiles and expect same behavior and same strengths and weaknesses
meowcat	Posted - 2005.02.15 17:37:00 - [19] Originally by: Hanns just a few things that worry me for raven pilots, ok take this example, a frigate is webbed and stationary, and gets shot by a large turret, the turret will still hit it hard right because its not moving? but with the proposed missie changes, a torp will still hit the stationary frig for next to no damage? Or if a frig is webbed by an intie, and theres a tempest 100km away, the tempest will waste the frig, but the raven will still do crapy damage, not enough to kill it the same as a apoc or tempest could. basicly all turret battleships can fit sniper setups that can hit for full damage, but once the missile changes take affect, the raven will never be able to dea lfull damage to a smaller ship, no matter the circumstances. this just dosent seem right. snip i have a feeling the missile changes are gonna hurt the caldari to much. from what i understand of the proposed changes, missiles will behave in a similar way to turrets - ie: your example of - - stationary frigate = the missile will do full damage. - frigate is going straight at you = full damage - frigate is orbiting you at 500m/s - damage will be reduced to simulate missiles "missing" the frigate all quite sensible and good really as a concession to missile users, i personally would be quite happy if they made missiles 10x faster (so you can get on killmails) ~~~~)\~~~~~\o/~~~~ yeah but no but yeah but no but
Collateral	Posted - 2005.02.15 17:38:00 - [20] The whole nerf missiles came up because a programmer didn't comment out a line of C (shudders, C++ for teh win (thats another thread)), which made missiles smarter than a smart person at a smart person convention using smart person drugs, i mean my torps go around a roid but my raven flies right into it. If missiles were made dumb again, that'd sort out a large problem with missiles (before anyone says, shut up noob, i've been here since retail and have seen a fair few changes). when missiles were dumb and spent all their flight time chasing after a ship, you could keep an orbit going and not get hit. This would keep some people quiet about torps being too powerful, the fact they are guaranteed to hit and you cant avoid is the problem (mainly with torps), and it'd also improve the usefulness of torps on ravens, if an inty can orbit me at 10k at over 1075m/s, he'll be infront of my torps, which means i then have to switch to cruise forthe extra speed to be able to hit him, as cruise do less dmg, the inty has time to realise that he's got a new prb, so can either go to bigger orbit or run away before being killed. Start with removing the military grade tracking of missiles and see how people react to that before turning missiles into some sort of turret base, because in the end we'll all switch to turrets coz they do instant dmg. There are some points in there don't flame me, it's childish. try constructive crticism, people prefer that.

Vigilant	Posted - 2005.02.15 18:21:00 - [21] Collateral, you post makes sense... But, I will ask a question back ? Then I guess Guns (any) shouldn't pass thru roids too, correct ? Would have to be that way....Cause a Raven would be screwed since his missile would hit the roids...but a APOC could blast you to bits if his/her lasers could pass thru...
Kyroki Tirpellan	Posted - 2005.02.15 18:23:00 - [22] I once saw a rather good idea about giving missiles two speed numbers: One for covering long distances (about 5000-10000m/s for Cruise) and another one for actually hitting it's target (~2000m/s for Cruise?), they'd slow down maybe 10km from target. At least such a system would make missiles more viable for long range combat, since they'd cover long distances quicly without being unavoidable. Another idea, what about giving missiles a chance of good hits and bad hits like turrets have now? Would a random factor like that screw up the server with lag? Anyway, just my 0.02 isk on the subject.. Peace through love, understanding and superior firepower. Real men structure tank!
Thanit	Posted - 2005.02.15 18:30:00 - [23] Edited by: Thanit on 15/02/2005 18:31:09 Edited by: Thanit on 15/02/2005 18:30:08 How about giving tech2 cruises a warp engine ? Let's say you load those (long range) missiles and they first go 80% of the distance towards the target in warp, and the remaining distance at 'normal' speed ? Only functions at >40km distance to target at time of firing... edit: its mroe or less the same as suggested above I see now. Must mean ots a good idea then Would make missiles long range viable again, yet would make tech2 cruises useless against close-ranged targets, as they should be imo. Tech1 cruises would then need to be de-lubbed to pre-smart status to make tackling a Raven something else then suicide again. Maybe boost light missile speed and get things right on the large <-> small front at least.
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.02.15 18:41:00 - [24] Edited by: j0sephine on 15/02/2005 18:43:07 "Be patient mate. Remember. You havent got tech 2 capability or skills yet. I would expect IF its gonna be balanced that your tech 1 set up may suck but it will probably end up owning everyone again shortly after you train for t2 stuff." This doesn't make sense for couple of reasons. First, there's no reason why tech.1 missiles should suck in comparison to tech.1 guns. And second, there's no reason why tech.2 guns should suck in comparison to tech.2 missiles. (i'd think everyone knows by now what happens in mmo game when one option is clearly above the others) Not to mention, since tech.2 guns are mostly just stat improvement over tech.1 guns, to have missiles go from 'worse than tech.1 guns' to 'better than tech.2 guns' in one tech level change would mean there's some insane boost/changes to missile functionality... and then what when it's time to roll out tech.3 equipment? ¼¼;
Face Lifter	Posted - 2005.02.15 18:43:00 - [25] Thanit, I like that idea a lot. It would look cool too, seeing your missiles warp. heh
Stuart85	Posted - 2005.02.15 18:51:00 - [26] With all the talk turning to Torpedos, Cruise missiles, and Small missiles I have to say I'm more interested to see what they do with Heavy missiles, as I can once again see Cruiser and Battle Cruiser pilots being left out, while frigates and Battleships get the monopoly of changes - good & bad. One thing we certainly need is more missile skills, gunners can currently tweak to their hearts content but missile users are left with weapons that are imbalanced in favour of...you guessed it...Battleships. The current Cruise missiles and torpedos are feared because they're too effective, while conversly heavy missiles are pretty muched laughed at for being useless against anything other than light (and slow) frigates. Caldari cruisers are too weak to fight at close range, but the missiles are too slow and ineffective at longer range. Fine for NPCs, but suicide in PvP.
Face Lifter	Posted - 2005.02.15 18:56:00 - [27] Heavy Missiles are pretty bad right now. They can't catch any MWDing frigs, they do about 15 dps with best launcher and skill. That's rather weak. And they don't have any special role. Even tho they can fly to 44 km, in PvP it's no use, not at their slow ass speed.
meowcat	Posted - 2005.02.15 19:00:00 - [28] Originally by: Face Lifter Heavy Missiles are pretty bad right now. They can't catch any MWDing frigs, they do about 15 dps with best launcher and skill. That's rather weak. And they don't have any special role. Even tho they can fly to 44 km, in PvP it's no use, not at their slow ass speed. as i said, make missiles 10x faster, but make big missiles 'miss' small targets with high transverse velocity. ~~~~)\~~~~~\o/~~~~ yeah but no but yeah but no but
Sky Hunter	Posted - 2005.02.15 19:03:00 - [29] Well im not that concerned about heavys cuz cruisers are always less used in pvp. Main is still frigs and BS. About torps i guess T2 ones should have SLIGHTLY increased velocity and dmg. Means base speed should be 820 m/s and base dmg lets say 490. Skill rank should be 6 or 7 However cruise T2 must be best of the best for BS since they are like T2 Megapulses. For example base speed should go to 1720 m/s and base dmg should be 400. Skill rank should be 7 or 8. So with Raven pilot operation those(assuming BS lvl 4), he will get like 2300 m/s and 430-450(to structure, "clean" damage) dmg from this thing. -=-
Stuart85	Posted - 2005.02.15 19:10:00 - [30] Edited by: Stuart85 on 15/02/2005 19:10:09 Originally by: Sky Hunter Well im not that concerned about heavys cuz cruisers are always less used in pvp. Main is still frigs and BS. Well if nobody is concerned about cruisers because they're usless, then they will continue being useless forever more.



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