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Abriael VonRosen
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Posted - 2011.06.09 18:05:00 -
[1]
Just reiterating a few key facts for the ones utterly blinded by their platform preference, thing that causes them to completely miss the reason behind this platform exclusivity.
Repetita Iuvant, especially when some heads prove excessively thick.
1: Dust was never supposed to be on PC, it's always been publicized as a console game. It's not even because console gamers play FPSs more, but simply because CCP doesn't want to cannibalize their own userbase. Other SHs did it and it ended quite badly.
2: the fact that the PSN has been hacked doesn't mean that the PSN is less secure than any other online environment. Online networks are hacked every day, even networks that include much more sensible data than the PSN (banks, the pentagon, etc). Hell, even Xbox Live gets hacked from time to time, involving the accounts of major Microsoft executives.
There's no ironclad network on the planet. As long as it's connected to the internet, all you can do is to protect it as much as you can, but if you get the attention of a hacker or a group of hackers that are determined and knowledgeable enough, there's a high chance that they'll get in, no matter what you do.
3: What prevented Dust to be on Xbox 360 is not some weird unilateral decision from CCP, nor them "selling out" to the evil devil Sony (mind you, between Sony and Microsoft, the second is quite more well known for buying exclusives). The cause is to be found in Xbox Live's policies and structure:
a) The network's structure is closed. Everything is handled by microsoft or through microsoft.
b) No cross-platform play is allowed. it was intialy considered (and experimented upon with Final Fantasy XI, for instance), but then the idea was scrapped and no further instances have been allowed.
c) All billing and patching is handled by microsoft or trough microsoft.
d) No Game Currency outside of microsoft points is allowed on Xbox Live.
3: If you believe that CCP didn't try to bring Dust to the 360 you're entirely delusional. They most probably tried, entering talks with microsoft to try and get an accomodation in order to make the cross-platform structure of Dust work with Xbox Live, and Microsoft, as usual, didn't budge of an inch, making the project impossible. They didn't budge for Valve (causing Gabe Newell to go rage on Sony's stage last year), they didn't budge for Square Enix (for Final Fantasy XIV), They didn't budge with Funcom or Cryptic (causing the cancellation of the 360 version of Age of Conan and Champions Online), do you really think they'd budge for our little CCP from Iceland?
4: The ones most disappointed about Dust not being a multiplatform game aren't you guys, it's CCP, considering that they're losing potential userbase, and with it they lose revenue.
The facts are simple. While the Xbox 360 is a very valid platform in it's own right, the current Xbox Live policies are not MMORPG-friendly, or anywhere advantageous for any game that needs to be run like a MMORPG or that needs to interface with a MMORPG, or that needs to involve any kind of cross-platform gameplay.
Want to patch your xbox 360 game? Sure. After your playtested your patch internally, you have to send it to microsoft, and wait for two weeks for them to certify it. Is your patch going to affect another platform? Though luck. You'll have to wait to patch all platforms.
Oh wait, that's not even possible, anyway, because cross-platform gameplay is disallowed by the xbox live policies.
Want to blame someone because Dust won't be on your favourite console? Microsoft -> That way. Probably you'll join quite a few CCP executives, they're probably more disappointed than you.
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Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams
The KWFL Republic
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Posted - 2011.06.09 18:09:00 -
[2]
bah, you left out the last (and best) paragraph :(
...oh wait
Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3 |
Blacksquirrel
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Posted - 2011.06.09 18:12:00 -
[3]
I understand it...doesnt mean I have to like it...
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Jeff Severasse
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Posted - 2011.06.09 18:26:00 -
[4]
I think point #1 is sorta a cop out by CCP. I have seen, and talked to, numerous (and I mean numerous) people who tend to play Dusk on their PS3. Heck I have even seen a ton of people state they tend to buy a PS3 to play Dusk.
Personally if they would of just come out and said "yeah its because of money, sorry to say it but we are a company and we need the $" I dont think anyone really would of cared lol.
Anyways past that I like your post, logical and to the point. +1 sir! |
Pineapple Squatsauce
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Posted - 2011.06.09 18:36:00 -
[5]
My tiny, calcified heart is always warmed by actual displays of logic and reason. Thank you for this.
***********************************************
I am Pineapple Squatsauce and I approve of this message. |
Abriael VonRosen
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Posted - 2011.06.09 18:40:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Copine Callmeknau
bah, you left out the last (and best) paragraph :(
That one was thread-specific :D
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RIP Wash
Gallente
FISKL GUARDS
RED.OverLord
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Posted - 2011.06.09 18:44:00 -
[7]
Great post, good to see some sanity on the boards.
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Copine Callmeknau
Kangaroos With Frickin Lazerbeams
The KWFL Republic
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Posted - 2011.06.09 18:47:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
Originally by: Copine Callmeknau
bah, you left out the last (and best) paragraph :(
That one was thread-specific :D
true true, it was the kicker for me though :p
Good post regardless of removal of hilarious content ;)
...oh wait
Stunning EVE Online Theme for PS3 |
Benilopax
Gallente
Isotech Engineering
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Posted - 2011.06.09 18:53:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Benilopax on 09/06/2011 18:53:47
I tried to argue these points at the height of the rage but was drowned out by whine. Glad someone has made the logical arguments in a far more concise understandable way now that the heat has died down.
Can we commence rage at Microsoft for being bad sports please?
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New Eden Chronicles: Prime, Coming soon. |
Battleship Bob
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Posted - 2011.06.09 19:06:00 -
[10]
+1 Micro$oft loses out.
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Karl Planck
Inglorious-Basterds
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Posted - 2011.06.09 19:30:00 -
[11]
yup, +1, there really isn't much to argue this with, save for raging troll comments. Well done Abriael VonRosen
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Don't debate with morons. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience. |
Mister Smithington
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Posted - 2011.06.09 20:15:00 -
[12]
Since we're re-posting from previous threads:
Originally by: Mister Smithington
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
. . .
1: Dust was never supposed to be on PC, it's always been publicized as a console game. . .
4: The ones most disappointed about Dust not being a multiplatform game aren't you guys, it's CCP, considering that they're losing potential userbase, and with it revenue. . .
Interesting contradiction here. CCP decides not to release Dust on PC and then is sad because they're loosing revenue from potential PC sales?
The argument for excluding Xbox is pretty strong. However not allowing current Eve players to participate in Dust -- which interacts with and effects Eve -- on the hardware they're currently using makes no sense. Especially since the two games are being marketed as "the same game." How does it make sense not to be able to play the "same game" on the same platform?
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Ranger 1
Amarr
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
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Posted - 2011.06.09 20:28:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Mister Smithington
Since we're re-posting from previous threads:
Originally by: Mister Smithington
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
. . .
1: Dust was never supposed to be on PC, it's always been publicized as a console game. . .
4: The ones most disappointed about Dust not being a multiplatform game aren't you guys, it's CCP, considering that they're losing potential userbase, and with it revenue. . .
Interesting contradiction here. CCP decides not to release Dust on PC and then is sad because they're loosing revenue from potential PC sales?
The argument for excluding Xbox is pretty strong. However not allowing current Eve players to participate in Dust -- which interacts with and effects Eve -- on the hardware they're currently using makes no sense. Especially since the two games are being marketed as "the same game." How does it make sense not to be able to play the "same game" on the same platform?
When he said multi platform he meant PS3 "and" Xbox. Obtuse much?
Having DUST only available on console (at least to start)is the strongest move they could make to ensure that diversification (their main goal) is attained.
Once they have attained (or failed to attain) their goal, then we'll see.
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Abriael VonRosen
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Posted - 2011.06.09 20:43:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Mister Smithington
Since we're re-posting from previous threads:
Interesting contradiction here. CCP decides not to release Dust on PC and then is sad because they're loosing revenue from potential PC sales?
The argument for excluding Xbox is pretty strong. However not allowing current Eve players to participate in Dust -- which interacts with and effects Eve -- on the hardware they're currently using makes no sense. Especially since the two games are being marketed as "the same game." How does it make sense not to be able to play the "same game" on the same platform?
They clearly said they don't want to cannibalize their userbase, which is quite different than "losing revenue from PC sales".
Eve Online is a subscription based MMORPG. The biggest revenue source for CCP is recurring subscriptions, not sales.
MMO games are big time sinkers, meaning that many people only play one at a time, and when they get a new one, they usually unsubscribe the previous one in order not to have a subscription running for a game they are not playing.
This means that if Dust was on PC, there's a good chance taht a sizable number of Eve players would move to Dust, which is not subscrition-based, and at least temporarily cancel their Eve sub. Thing that implies a loss of stable revenue for CCP.
By diversifying their offering to an almost completely separate audience, they reduce that risk by a lot (on top on having a fair chance at getting a completely new crowd interested in Eve itself).
Cannibalizing your own current userbase is a good idea only in two instances:
1: When you don't run a subscription-based business
2: when your primary business is declining and you're planning to put it in the backburner.
Quite obviously none of those two cases applies here.
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John'eh
Gallente
Asteroid Belt Protection Services
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Posted - 2011.06.09 20:52:00 -
[15]
Edited by: John''eh on 09/06/2011 20:54:07
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
3: What prevented Dust to be on Xbox 360 is not some weird unilateral decision from CCP, nor them "selling out" to the evil devil Sony (mind you, between Sony and Microsoft, the second is quite more well known for buying exclusives). The cause is to be found in Xbox Live's policies and structure:
False. Prove me wrong, come on, come at me bro.
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
a) The network's structure is closed. Everything is handled by microsoft or through microsoft.
False. Not everything; I haver personally seen deals get made that allow this sort of thing, it just requires the company involved HTFU.
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
b) No cross-platform play is allowed. it was intialy considered (and experimented upon with Final Fantasy XI, for instance), but then the idea was scrapped and no further instances have been allowed.
Eve and Dust are not FF, and thus your straw man argument is not valid as cross platform play happens all the time on XBL. You are wrong. FF failed on XBOX due to licensing disagreements as its a well known Sony Exclusive and they didn't want to lose it. This is why I can play PC games with XBL games. Go ahead, Prove me wrong. You cant.
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
c) All billing and patching is handled by microsoft or trough microsoft.
So CCP has less costs and less to worry about for billing or getting audited, and has no reason to push out patch after patch after patch of crappy low quality code and is instead forced to put out only the best they can. How is this not a good thing for us, the customer? Unless of course CCP refused to HTFU and create code that doesn't suck? I agree, this is probably the reason, but its not a legitimate excuse as all it really means is CCP and its employees fail so hard at their jobs that they cant keep up with a real software company.
Go ahead, Prove me wrong. You cant.
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
d) No Game Currency outside of microsoft points is allowed on Xbox Live.
Not true. I have seen deals that allow others, as long as they have a conversion available. Clearly that already exists with PLEX. Its just tht CCP didn't believe in themselves enough to do this.
Go ahead, Prove me wrong. You cant.
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
3: If you believe that CCP didn't try to bring Dust to the 360 you're entirely delusional. They most probably tried, entering talks with microsoft to try and get an accomodation in order to make the cross-platform structure of Dust work with Xbox Live, and Microsoft, as usual, didn't budge of an inch, making the project impossible.
Bull****. You think listing other failed events gives you credability but it only makes you sound desperate. MSFT has strict legal requisiteness they have to follow because they are a publicly traded company, and CCP being private has more freedom in terms of accounting, etc, and despite what you may think, they care a lot more about security than sony or ccp. This also means tht MSFT has a bigger reason to worry about liability, so ccp would have to htfu.. and didn't.
Go ahead, Prove me wrong. You cant.
In the end you are so wrong its stupid; I have worked in MS and they do everything they can to expand the reach of their space and get other companies involved in them because its best for the platform, and their customers. You are wrong, and while I admit you did a great straw man and are good at BS-ing people who are ignorant of how things really work, thats not going to work here.
In the end, it looks to me like the reason dust is not on xbox is because CCP's crappy code is not good enough for it, as it does not meet the high quality standards of the industry, and to be blunt, because CCP as a company cant HTFU and stop acting like noobs.
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Erichk Knaar
Caldari
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2011.06.09 20:57:00 -
[16]
Originally by: John'eh
...
*cough* Valve *cough*
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John'eh
Gallente
Asteroid Belt Protection Services
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Posted - 2011.06.09 21:08:00 -
[17]
Edited by: John''eh on 09/06/2011 21:09:04
Originally by: Erichk Knaar
Originally by: John'eh
...
*cough* Valve *cough*
As I said above, everything Valve wanted is possible anbd would have been available if they had agreed to it.
When people do work for you they expect to get paid, and its well known that Valve wanted to be communists and expected people to work for them for free and that is mostly what they are whining about. MS said "No, thats not fair to our employees or our shareholders".
I don't rally see a problem with that. Only babies whine about such small things, I clearly suggest CCP just HTFU.
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Wieland II
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.09 21:16:00 -
[18]
I say they cannibalize their playerbase due to not bringing Dust to the PC.
I love playing EVE.
I loved playing Planetside.
I would have loved to play Dust.
So instead of playing EVE and Dust, i will move to Planetside Next.
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Ranger 1
Amarr
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
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Posted - 2011.06.09 21:18:00 -
[19]
Originally by: John'eh
Edited by: John''eh on 09/06/2011 21:09:04
Originally by: Erichk Knaar
Originally by: John'eh
...
*cough* Valve *cough*
As I said above, everything Valve wanted is possible anbd would have been available if they had agreed to it.
When people do work for you they expect to get paid, and its well known that Valve wanted to be communists and expected people to work for them for free and that is mostly what they are whining about. MS said "No, thats not fair to our employees or our shareholders".
I don't rally see a problem with that. Only babies whine about such small things, I clearly suggest CCP just HTFU.
So Microsoft demanded too big a slice of Valves pie for the "privelege" of running it on the Xbox.
Apparently Valve prefered to not bend over for Microsoft.
Perhaps CCP is plenty hard after all. 
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The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction. |
Jotaro Bene
Q-Tech Incindenary Division
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Posted - 2011.06.09 21:19:00 -
[20]
As nobody but CCP, Sony and Microsoft knows the reasons why Dust will only be available on the PS, I fail to see any point in getting so excited about things until they tell us the reasons why.
Why don't you all get a Guinness instead 
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Ranger 1
Amarr
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
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Posted - 2011.06.09 21:22:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jotaro Bene
As nobody but CCP, Sony and Microsoft knows the reasons why Dust will only be available on the PS, I fail to see any point in getting so excited about things until they tell us the reasons why.
Why don't you all get a Guinness instead
Why instead? I prefer "get a Guinness while you're at it"!
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The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.09 21:22:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Jotaro Bene
Why don't you all get a Guinness instead
Because all my spoons are in the dish washer. 
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
Erichk Knaar
Caldari
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
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Posted - 2011.06.09 21:23:00 -
[23]
Originally by: John'eh
As I said above, everything Valve wanted is possible anbd would have been available if they had agreed to it.
When people do work for you they expect to get paid, and its well known that Valve wanted to be communists and expected people to work for them for free and that is mostly what they are whining about. MS said "No, thats not fair to our employees or our shareholders".
I don't rally see a problem with that. Only babies whine about such small things, I clearly suggest CCP just HTFU.
No, you said that CCPs (allegedly) crappy code is the reason that Dust would be impossible to implement on XBL, nothing about how broken MS business practices are. The issues with MS anti-competitive behavior are well know, way beyond the gaming realm. I'm old enough to remember Direct3D and how that came about.
The fact that Valve, and now CCP have discovered something in the business fine print of XBL, making each company decide it wasn't worth it even at the cost of not reaching the Xbox player population, speaks a whole lot more truth than your amazingly angry :words: ever will.
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John'eh
Gallente
Asteroid Belt Protection Services
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Posted - 2011.06.09 21:25:00 -
[24]
Edited by: John''eh on 09/06/2011 21:25:21
Originally by: Ranger 1
So Microsoft demanded too big a slice of Valves pie for the "privelege" of running it on the Xbox.
Not at all, the main complaint seems to be that Valve made the assumption it would be free every time and find out the hard way that it was not the case.. Apparently they expected MS's employees to not be paid for their work. So really, Valve was just whining about something they knew in advance would not be the case, they just wanted special treatment and didn't like begin told to wait in the queue like everybody else.
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MasterEnt
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Posted - 2011.06.09 21:27:00 -
[25]
John'eh must be a politician with all the crap he talks.
Clueless, take your own advice. OP is correct.
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Ranger 1
Amarr
Paragon Fury
Cascade Imminent
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Posted - 2011.06.09 21:28:00 -
[26]
Originally by: John'eh
Edited by: John''eh on 09/06/2011 21:25:21
Originally by: Ranger 1
So Microsoft demanded too big a slice of Valves pie for the "privelege" of running it on the Xbox.
Not at all, the main complaint seems to be that Valve made the assumption it would be free every time and find out the hard way that it was not the case.. Apparently they expected MS's employees to not be paid for their work. So really, Valve was just whining about something they knew in advance would not be the case, they just wanted special treatment and didn't like begin told to wait in the queue like everybody else.
And yet it boils down to the same thing, no matter how you try to soft peddle it.
Sorry, no sympathy for the poor employees that Microsoft couldn't afford to pay unless Valve forked big bucks over.
Exactly who are you trying to kid
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The world will not end in 2012, however there will be a serious nerf to Planetary Interaction. |
John'eh
Gallente
Asteroid Belt Protection Services
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Posted - 2011.06.09 21:33:00 -
[27]
Edited by: John''eh on 09/06/2011 21:34:00
Originally by: Ranger 1
Sorry, no sympathy for the poor employees that Microsoft couldn't afford to pay unless Valve forked big bucks over.
OK so in the spirit of intelligent discussion let me ask you these 2 questions:
1. As a company, why should MS do the work involved in updates/patches for free?
2. And as somebody who owns MS stock, and possibly as a somebody who has a retirement fund that invests in that stock, would you be happy with them making less money in profit because they did this work for free?
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Mister Smithington
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Posted - 2011.06.09 21:34:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
Cannibalizing your own current userbase is a good idea only in two instances:
1: When you don't run a subscription-based business
2: when your primary business is declining and you're planning to put it in the backburner.
Quite obviously none of those two cases applies here.
Option 3: When your current userbase could and would use both products at once
Eve is a sandbox MMO. Dust is a shooter. They are two different kinds of games that satisfy two different urges. Many Eve players play shooters as well as single player RPGs, RTSes and other genres on top of thier choice MMO.
I'd be willing to wager it's an extreme minority of gamers who only play one genre and a minority of them who only play one game. The idea that Eve players would up and quit Eve because CCP released a new game is silly. As is the idea that they'd devote ALL of their game time to ONE shooter. This is especially true when you consider that dust will have an impact on Eve. One would have to assume that Eve/Dust crossover players would be excited to see how their actions impacted the other game firsthand.
I used this example in another thread, but it's like saying Blizzard shouldn't have released Star Craft 2 because they didn't want to cannibalize the WoW market. Obviously if Blizzard releases a new game for the PC, all their other PC users from a different game in a different Genre would flock to this new product and abandon their favorite game completely. Right? No. Blizzard fans played WoW for their MMO fix and SC2 for their RTS fix. Blizzard didn't cannibalize their market by releasing a different game in a different genre and neither would CCP.
Let's state it even more simply. Eve fans are Eve fans because they like Eve. There are plenty of MMOs out there, no one ends up here by accident. With all the **** Eve fans have endured, we stay because we like internet spaceships. That won't change if you offer internet soldiers with guns. This is especially true when you consider that Dust is not subscription based. When you can play for free there's no reason to have to choose.
But let's assume for a minute that there are Eve players who are so stoked for Dust that they would quit Eve altogether when it comes out. There's nothing stopping them. The only barrier is the price of a PS3, and $300 ($200 used) is pretty cheap compared to the cost of maintaining a high end PC.
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Pineapple Squatsauce
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Posted - 2011.06.09 21:36:00 -
[29]
Originally by: John'eh
Edited by: John''eh on 09/06/2011 21:25:21
Originally by: Ranger 1
So Microsoft demanded too big a slice of Valves pie for the "privelege" of running it on the Xbox.
Not at all, the main complaint seems to be that Valve made the assumption it would be free every time and find out the hard way that it was not the case.. Apparently they expected MS's employees to not be paid for their work. So really, Valve was just whining about something they knew in advance would not be the case, they just wanted special treatment and didn't like begin told to wait in the queue like everybody else.
You're right, John'eh. CCP hates money. They hate earning money. And they're obviously just thinking up new ways to run themselves into the poor house. They obviously did NO research into this at all.
I mean, they should have obviously gone with MS and had all of their content updates vetted by an outside group because that would encourage them to keep buggy code to a minimum. It would have been smarter to have an eventual PC port locked into the exceptionally amazing Games For Windows Live, rather than being able to take advantage of the steamworks integration being rolled out this year because, seriously, WTF cares about steam, anway? No one uses it.
Obviously, these guys just failed their way into the funding for game development and need a genius...perhaps a genius like you, John'eh, to lead the way forward. It shouldn't be too hard, mate. I mean, you already know everything there is to know about how negotiate an acceptable contract with MS and are obviously smarter than all those guys over at CCP anyway. Just a little bit of planning and this all could be yours.
Also, I'm being sarcastic. So, there's that to consider, I guess.
***********************************************
I am Pineapple Squatsauce and I approve of this message. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.09 21:37:00 -
[30]
Originally by: John'eh
1. As a company, why should MS do the work involved in updates/patches for free?
Yes, why should they be involved with updates and patches?
Quote:
Thsi is why XBL has such great uptime.
Yes. No downtime issues there. No-siree-bob.
ùùù
ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à
you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö
ù Karath Piki |
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