Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 34 post(s) |

EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
269
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Posted - 2012.09.11 13:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Xhagen wrote: Yes, we have to come up with a more powerful 'pre-election' mechanic. Me being a reformist rather than a revolutionist I wanted to take the small step first and evaluate the outcome. I believe the outcome was positive and thus we have to take the next step. Regarding the navel-gazing; sometimes it is necessary to take a look at the foundation that is being worked from in order to move on. I think that making sure the CSM-system itself is working in a satisfactory manner is healthy for its long term effectiveness.
What constraints are we operating under when it comes to CCP coding? If a primary system/ranked preference vote/etc were proposed could they be implemented? Technetium Lord |

EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
269
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Posted - 2012.09.11 13:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
candidate x: hates eve, loves sex with goats
I can get behind this (much like candidate X with a goat) Technetium Lord |

EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
269
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Posted - 2012.09.11 16:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP Xhagen wrote: I've also been thinking about the following scenario: Hold regular elections for CSM8, using current voting mechanics. Make that dictate the results. On the side run an experiment on a new voting system and see the results from that using the voting data from CSM8 election. Investigate and spit-shine and use new voting system for CSM9 if viable.
Just a thought in terms of a possible implementation strategy.
The real trouble with preference ranking (which you need for STV) is the increased complexity of the ballot may discourage turnout. That's hard to measure in a side run test. The advantage to preference ranking systems is lowered tactical voting which leads to a better reflection of the voter's preferences, but the downside is the increased complexity of the ballot compared to "pick one".
My suggestion would be to have a person vote on their first choice. That's registered, and put into the system. They're then given the option to vote for their second, and that's then put into the system. Repeat until you get to the maximum number of candidates you'd like people to be able to rank. The advantage here is if I get bored and wander off after my first place ballot, it's not lost.
After a brief search of multiple-winner voting methods, it seems the only real option is STV. All others would be too complex in practice (i.e. you have to rank too many people on your ballot), feature high levels of tactical voting, or rely on political parties. Technetium Lord |

EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
272
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Posted - 2012.09.11 16:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
Bloodpetal wrote: #1 - Platforms.
This basically assumes the CSM is a parliament instead of a sounding board. How able candidates will be to understand what a proposal does in practice matters much more than what their "stance" on things is. Technetium Lord |

EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
272
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 16:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
CCP Xhagen wrote:Xolve wrote:I still maintain that the problem isn't with the voting system, but with the visibility that the CSM has among the player base. Increase player awareness and even give out little gimmicky not game breaking rewards for pushing a button.
The idea for pay for splash ads is pretty neat, and should more than likely be a thing- this game already has one of the most creative groups of players in any MMO, why not tap into it- toss up that 'any submitted artwork is property of CCP' clause and get free advertising material. Absolutely - despite the dramas and the things EVE players create you guys are amazing (no homo). if you do this please please please please please allow attack ads Technetium Lord |

EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
272
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 16:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
CCP Xhagen wrote: It would require, I think, that we know somewhat who is running well before hand... or should we just use the current candidates and ask 'which of them would you vote again'?
I think current CSM candidates already have too much of a leg up on appealing to underrepresented votes. If you're a highseccer you can consider voting for the guy who sounds bright but has an unproven record of getting in, or the Issler candidate who you don't really have any reason to believe is nearly as good, but might be able to get in. Entrenching that advantage doesn't help in getting the best people from those groups. Technetium Lord |

EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
272
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 16:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
Bloodpetal wrote: This doesn't assume anything of the sort. ... The system does the following ::
Literally everything on that list reinforced my point. If you're electing someone for the CSM you want someone who understands an issue and can understand what a proposed change will do to that issue. How they stand on that issue is completely irrelevant. Technetium Lord |

EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
272
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 16:36:00 -
[8] - Quote
Andski wrote: I agree. The problem isn't quite the weight that bloc candidates carry, it's the crapflood of non-bloc candidates who end up absorbing enough votes to keep some good people off the CSM (see Korvin) - forum likes are up to 3 per account and that is ~dumb~
forum likes also aren't limited to a specific number of candidates, which is the real problem. Being able to 'like' several candidates is one thing, all of them not so much, so you can push everyone over a specific threshold.
However what you could do is only the top "x" liked threads get in. That's pretty gamable though (everyone: go like our guys, and the most unelectable nobodies or useless bodies that will say nothing if elected but leave off the actual challengers). Technetium Lord |

EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
272
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 16:45:00 -
[9] - Quote
Two step wrote: The simple solution to this is to just run the regular election, with one vote per account, and the top X people are full candidates.
I know this is gameable but I'm not sure what level of information I'd need to game it properly. Technetium Lord |

EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
273
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 17:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
CCP Xhagen wrote: Could it be that high sec and null sec are just so different that they constitute two 'games' within EVE and therefore this differences arise? So if I designed a political system based on premises that really only considers null sec, wouldn't that automatically leave high sec out, or at least make it more difficult for them to participate?
They're very different, but they're completely linked and changes to one affect the other. I care about highsec things because those impact 0.0, and highsec cares about 0.0 things to the extent they affect highsec (this tends to be a weaker link because highsec does not rely on 0.0 industry but 0.0 relies on highsec industry). In addition, due to the prevalence of alts many people use multiple parts of space. I have close to as many highsec characters as 0.0 ones.
It's true people organize differently in the two areas, but it's not really a different game. 0.0 simply requires you form an effective organization or you flounder into uselessness, while highsec can be done completely solo. Technetium Lord |

EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
275
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 18:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
After reading Nicolo da'Vicenza's post, I'm struck by another point. How is it, precisely, that we know that highsec is under-educated about the CSM? The posting about how highsec needs to vote, how they're not voting, and so on comes in torrents but from very few people. Honestly, a lot of it is just Frying Doom posting so often that if you forget his name it seems like a consensus - but it's just Frying Doom. And it's Frying Doom operating from the starting point that nobody from highsec could either not care about the CSM or not oppose the evil goonies, so they must be uneducated. That's the perennial excuse of the losers of elections: the voters are just too dumb to listen to me.
Highsec has gotten plenty of people on the CSM. Most of them, however, have not been successes (Jade, Issler, etc) and have faded out of memory. On the other hand, there's the memorable 0.0 bloc delegates (DJ, Mittens) who are memorable mostly because they were also the CEO of Goonswarm and consequently produced a great deal of gnashing of teeth from the people who suffered under Goonswarm's (ingame) heel.
Now granted, I personally think choosing Issler as a highsec delegate may have been a poor decision but I can't really think of impressive-seeming ones that were running. There was one guy who seemed to have a good head on his sholders but nobody had ever heard of and whose name I have already forgotten: highsec may simply not be throwing up good candidates.
I don't think it should be taken as a given that highsec is uneducated and unknowing about the CSM and that's screwed them, I'd like to see something - besides pointing to the volume of Frying Doom posts - that suggests that. Technetium Lord |

EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
275
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 18:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
Bloodpetal wrote: Your point was that the a Platform system would be parliamentary in nature and not just a sounding board. This has nothing to do with parliamentary elements. It has to do with getting the opinions that matter into the CSM.
Wrong. Everything you're proposing is premised on the idea you vote people in because of their opinions on subjects. It's a dumb system that doesn't fit how the CSM actually works and is hilariously overcomplicated. Technetium Lord |

EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
278
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 19:50:00 -
[13] - Quote
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote: If splash screen ads are to be allowed at all, let them be free of charge, limit each candidate to one and randomize the day they can have it posted. These should not become tools to give the wealthy an edge over candidates that want to run based on their experience, expertise, and character.
What shows experience, expertise, and character better than the sums of money you have access to? Technetium Lord |

EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
281
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 21:52:00 -
[14] - Quote
Pirokobo wrote: I assure you that we have scrutinized Trebor's single-transferable-vote system and have come up with a way to exploit it to hell and back to completely stack the csm with nullsec candidates.
would you try to keep up, trebor's proposal is off the table
what is currently being discussed is real stv which does not suffer from the sorts of tactical voting arrangements fptp can Technetium Lord |

EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
281
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 18:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
Trebor Daehdoow wrote: As such, the "fair representation" goal should, IMHO, be a "fair representation of the different player subpopulations", which is not quite the same thing as a "fair representation of the electorate" in RL democratic terms. Ideally, CCP would like to have a CSM diverse enough in terms of interests such that no matter what topic is placed before the CSM, there will be at least 3-4 active CSM members with experience in that area.
I disagree. The fact someone can be troubled to vote in the CSM indicates their engagement with the game and the level they care about the game. Therefore, being representative of the electorate is superior to being representative of the "different player subpopulations". It tells you something when people take the trouble to vote, that they feel the need for input on a specific area. Technetium Lord |

EvilweaselFinance
BUTTECORP INC Goonswarm Federation
282
|
Posted - 2012.09.13 18:07:00 -
[16] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:Malcanis wrote:The only way that you're going to prevent organisations like the CFC from getting a CSM rep is to advocate that CCP directly choose CSM reps without going through a player voting process. Even this assumes that CCP wouldn't choose Mittens, or say Aryth, or corestwo, on the merits. After all, if you're playing (and occasionally, breaking) the game at that level, you probably have some insight that CCP would be interested in hearing. yeah, you probably want the guys who are best at breaking stuff under NDAs and giving you the info on the broken stuff before it goes live, in neat math form that explains just how hilariously broken it is Technetium Lord |
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