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Naomi Knight
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.06.19 22:06:00 -
[121]
****ty AT9 proved that matar ships are op and hybrids are crap
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fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
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Posted - 2011.06.19 22:41:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: fukier
think something like a 15% incraese to both rof and base damage will help rails out lots...
If we're talking about an increase in the sense that it reduces DPS, then your idea doesn't really do much. If we're talking about increasing the ROF in the sense that it increases DPS, your suggestion would make rails absurdly OP.
Originally by: fukier
if math serves me right you will now get a rokh with 3 mag stabs the 425II fires every 3.35 seconds and has a 7.6x damage multiplier... with antimater you are doing 3356 alpha and 1001 dps... with one tracking comp and TE you are shooting 47 optimal and 49 falloff... not so bad now is it?
compared to a hype same setup fires every 4.4 seconds has a damage muliplier of 9.5x with antimater you are doing 4186 alpha and 936 dps....
I'm not even sure what you're doing here. Are you comparing a rokh with your ideas implemented to a hype without said changes? If you are, christ, you actually want to buff rails so much that a ship with no bonuses to their damage would be ODing a ship that currently has a bonus to their DPS. That's too much. With the changes I suggested a rokh would be pumping out 400 DPS at 150km, more than any other BS already. With your suggestion it would literally be ODing cruise ravens at that range, which is just silly
actually the hype bonus wont change only the rokhs bonus from 10% to range to 5% to rof... this wont make the ship op as with antimater and one TE and TC will only shoot out to 100km and half of that is falloff... but still look at the alpha its only 3300 the abbadon is doing 5900 and the mael is doing over 10,000 alpha... how is that op?
ok lets do 150km setups cuss you like getting probed and killed... so lets switch to lead... which does 36.8 so 36.8x7.6 =279.68 per shot so 279.68x8=(2237.44 alpha) aso 2237.44/3.35= (667 dps) wow that is awesome but lets compare shall we?
the hype at 150km will do 36.8*9.5 = 349.6*8= (2796.8 alpha) 2796.8/4.4= (635 dps)
the abbadon at 150km using infared will do 3475 alpha and 505 dps
the mael at 150km using titanium will do 7535 alpha and 454 dps...
you say you want rails to do 400 dps but that makes them less then the mael... but ifyou compare alpha the mael does 54% more then the abbadon and 63% more then the hype and 71% more then the rokh
but if you compare dps then the rokh does 5% more dps then the hype 25% more then the abbadon and 32% more dps then the mael...
please how does this make the rails op?
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Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
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Posted - 2011.06.19 23:11:00 -
[123]
This is an outrage! why hasn't this reached enough pages to get a blue post?!
On another note, I plan to train hybrid after my year long mining / support plan. |
Cataca
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Posted - 2011.06.19 23:24:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Digital Messiah This is an outrage! why hasn't this reached enough pages to get a blue post?!
On another note, I plan to train hybrid after my year long mining / support plan.
Not to troll, but the combined whine for hybrids would reach around 200+ pages now for the last 2 years, and as far as i know there was not a single constructive dev post in them. Thinking this thread will be different is... optimistic..to put it mildly.
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Onictus
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Posted - 2011.06.19 23:41:00 -
[125]
Edited by: Onictus on 19/06/2011 23:43:21
Originally by: fukier
look at it this way rof bonus is better for dps as you fire more often and end up doing more damage per second but the alpha stays the same... a damage bonus is better for alpha as it also increases dps but just not as much as a rof bonus... for blaster ships i want a damage bonus for rail ships a rof bonus would work nice... but you cant just incraese the rof for rails you also need a base damage incraese too... i think something like a 15% incraese to both rof and base damage will help rails out lots...
I agree, its not so much that rails DON'T do the damage, they certainly can, increase the tracking for a better rate of solid hits, and increase the ROF (basically make them an insanely long range auto cannons).
You NOW have the DPS to justify... crap fitting requirements cap use ammo use low alpha.
Adding ....10% damamage to the ammo would be nice, but that is sort of a dream methinks.
Without trodding on anyone else's niche they are at least a viable system......because 120 point hits at optimal with the 425mm rails against battleships is ......frustraiting.
Originally by: fukier
if math serves me right you will now get a rokh with 3 mag stabs the 425II fires every 3.35 seconds and has a 7.6x damage multiplier... with antimater you are doing 3356 alpha and 1001 dps... with one tracking comp and TE you are shooting 47 optimal and 49 falloff... not so bad now is it?
compared to a hype same setup fires every 4.4 seconds has a damage muliplier of 9.5x with antimater you are doing 4186 alpha and 936 dps....
compared to an abbadon simular setup using techion fires every 6.8 secons has a damage mulipier of 13.48x doing 5957 alpha and 866 dps (keep in mind you need to fit rcuII or pg rigs to fit all 8 guns)
compared to the mael using 1400II fires every 16.58 seconds and has a damage multiplier of 25.59x doing 10811 alpha and 652 dps
Interesting that you bring up the Hype....in my short time playing it is the tier 3 BS that I have seen the least the entire time. You see Domi's EVERYWHERE, Megas for the average POS bash...or occasional snip BS support role....
No, Hypes...they are very rare, I had to point it out to a new corpies that he could fly the hull, he'd never seen one in 6 weeks playing.
Considering that hybrids have EVERY disadvantage of the other three weapon systems, I'm with you on that.
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Onictus
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Posted - 2011.06.19 23:52:00 -
[126]
Edited by: Onictus on 19/06/2011 23:52:36
Originally by: Cambarus
Originally by: fukier
think something like a 15% incraese to both rof and base damage will help rails out lots...
If we're talking about an increase in the sense that it reduces DPS, then your idea doesn't really do much. If we're talking about increasing the ROF in the sense that it increases DPS, your suggestion would make rails absurdly OP.
Originally by: fukier
if math serves me right you will now get a rokh with 3 mag stabs the 425II fires every 3.35 seconds and has a 7.6x damage multiplier... with antimater you are doing 3356 alpha and 1001 dps... with one tracking comp and TE you are shooting 47 optimal and 49 falloff... not so bad now is it?
compared to a hype same setup fires every 4.4 seconds has a damage muliplier of 9.5x with antimater you are doing 4186 alpha and 936 dps....
I'm not even sure what you're doing here. Are you comparing a rokh with your ideas implemented to a hype without said changes? If you are, christ, you actually want to buff rails so much that a ship with no bonuses to their damage would be ODing a ship that currently has a bonus to their DPS. That's too much. With the changes I suggested a rokh would be pumping out 400 DPS at 150km, more than any other BS already. With your suggestion it would literally be ODing cruise ravens at that range, which is just silly
So your issue is that a ship with TWO sniping bonuses......can snipe?
...and yes the Hype is obviously such a strong platform.........
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The Djego
Minmatar Hellequin Inc.
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Posted - 2011.06.19 23:57:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Cataca
Originally by: Digital Messiah This is an outrage! why hasn't this reached enough pages to get a blue post?!
On another note, I plan to train hybrid after my year long mining / support plan.
Not to troll, but the combined whine for hybrids would reach around 200+ pages now for the last 2 years, and as far as i know there was not a single constructive dev post in them. Thinking this thread will be different is... optimistic..to put it mildly.
Should be a lot more(I can remember +100 pages even before QR actually hit and 80+ threadnaugths during 2009).
Also the last time I did read blue bars in a blaster thread it was mostly like "yeah good troll".
To be fair, nobody in CCP or the CSM knows how to fix it and most people that did quit the game long ago. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.20 00:00:00 -
[128]
Originally by: The Djego To be fair, nobody in CCP or the CSM knows how to fix it and most people that did quit the game long ago.
Listening to lead game designer CCP Soundwave during AT9 gave me a lot of hope that they haven't totally lost sight of how to fix Eve. He asked very leading questions about ship balance, and didn't seem surprised by the answer.
-Liang -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Cataca
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Posted - 2011.06.20 00:23:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: The Djego To be fair, nobody in CCP or the CSM knows how to fix it and most people that did quit the game long ago.
Listening to lead game designer CCP Soundwave during AT9 gave me a lot of hope that they haven't totally lost sight of how to fix Eve. He asked very leading questions about ship balance, and didn't seem surprised by the answer.
-Liang
Really? Care to give some examples? I did not follow all of the tournament broadcast, so im kind of curious. Thus far the only ballancing suggestion i remembered was "lets move all ice to 0sec" which made me chuckle.
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Liang Nuren
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Posted - 2011.06.20 00:29:00 -
[130]
I would but I'm kinda lazy these days. I remember that he asked a bunch of leading questions about EAF survivability and AF bang for the buck. I remember him helping out one of the commentators (Bolton maybe?) out and asking whether blasters had a good range vs damage metric.
Anyway, hope isn't lost. Not that I expect hybrids to get fixed any time soon. -- Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire On Twitter
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Cataca
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Posted - 2011.06.20 01:12:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Liang Nuren I would but I'm kinda lazy these days. I remember that he asked a bunch of leading questions about EAF survivability and AF bang for the buck. I remember him helping out one of the commentators (Bolton maybe?) out and asking whether blasters had a good range vs damage metric.
Anyway, hope isn't lost. Not that I expect hybrids to get fixed any time soon.
I guess we will just wait another dev-cycle for the other half of caldari and the biggest part of gallente to be viable again.
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Onictus
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Posted - 2011.06.20 02:23:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Cataca
Originally by: Liang Nuren I would but I'm kinda lazy these days. I remember that he asked a bunch of leading questions about EAF survivability and AF bang for the buck. I remember him helping out one of the commentators (Bolton maybe?) out and asking whether blasters had a good range vs damage metric.
Anyway, hope isn't lost. Not that I expect hybrids to get fixed any time soon.
I guess we will just wait another dev-cycle for the other half of caldari and the biggest part of gallente to be viable again.
One can hope
I like the idea of hybrids, but even then, if I'm in a Myrm its got projectiles.
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fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
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Posted - 2011.06.20 02:52:00 -
[133]
Edited by: fukier on 20/06/2011 02:53:10
Originally by: Onictus
Originally by: Cataca
Originally by: Liang Nuren I would but I'm kinda lazy these days. I remember that he asked a bunch of leading questions about EAF survivability and AF bang for the buck. I remember him helping out one of the commentators (Bolton maybe?) out and asking whether blasters had a good range vs damage metric.
Anyway, hope isn't lost. Not that I expect hybrids to get fixed any time soon.
I guess we will just wait another dev-cycle for the other half of caldari and the biggest part of gallente to be viable again.
One can hope
I like the idea of hybrids, but even then, if I'm in a Myrm its got projectiles.
if i am in a myrm i got med nuets on... maybe two small autos.... imagine when the myrm gets a bonus to incomming armmor rr... it will be awesome... though please g-d give the myrm 100mbit/sec when it went from 125 to 75 i pretty much stopped using the ship... 100 and i will start using it again... please please please please....
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Fistme
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Posted - 2011.06.20 03:16:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Naomi Knight ****ty AT9 proved that matar ships are op and hybrids are crap
pretty sure every tourney in recent history has lead to this conclusion... Matari/angel online!
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Swynet
State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.06.20 03:41:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Fistme
Originally by: Naomi Knight ****ty AT9 proved that matar ships are op and hybrids are crap
pretty sure every tourney in recent history has lead to this conclusion... Matari/angel online!
Once you cross train minmatar and start using minmatar ships you don't have any more issues with gallente ships.
It's the best Gallente skill: train minmatar
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Nogunaba Agast
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Posted - 2011.06.20 04:08:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Nogunaba Agast on 20/06/2011 04:08:46
Originally by: Swynet
Once you cross train minmatar and start using minmatar ships you don't have any more issues with gallente, caldari, or amarr ships.
It's the best Gallente, Caldari, and Amarr skill: train minmatar
Fixed that for you.
Edit: forgot you also need gal spc skills for angel ships, looks like gallente is the second best race in the game then.
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Swynet
State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.06.20 04:41:00 -
[137]
Edited by: Swynet on 20/06/2011 04:43:45
Originally by: Nogunaba Agast
Originally by: Swynet
Once you cross train minmatar and start using minmatar ships you don't have any more issues with gallente, caldari, or amarr ships.
It's the best Gallente, Caldari, and Amarr skill: train minmatar
Fixed that for you.
Edit: forgot you also need gal spc skills for angel ships, looks like gallente is the second best race in the game then.
No the first useless one is Gallente and the second one, has every one looking at AT saw it(about 30K?), is Serpentis.
I'd place Caldari in third place but they are really too good. Their ECM works, pretty well, their basilisk has shown in the AT how important this asset is opposed to the oneiros miserably dyeing and sensible to ecm. Every single version of the tengu we've seen at he AT showed clearly they are functioning has intended: versatile and effective Once again opposed to the proteus that can't catch any thing and to the legion needing to be two to do the dmg of a single tengu.
Leaves us with the second best race witch, has you also have seen if you looked at the AT show, is Amarr. So in order we have: angels, minmatar, amarr, caldari, guristas, BR, Mercenaries(<3 laser caracals),serpentis and Gallente.
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Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
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Posted - 2011.06.20 05:07:00 -
[138]
Looks like I will be spending the rest of tonight researching ways to balance hybrid turrets.
See you all in my combined thread of linked ideas and inevitable trolling that will follow my post.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
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Julius Foederatus
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Posted - 2011.06.20 05:24:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Lilith Velkor Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 19/06/2011 19:23:51
Originally by: Julius Foederatus
Herein lies the problem: the hybrid platforms don't have enough speed to get in tackle range. The only reason kitey (and I use the term loosely) setups are tackled these days is because they're not paying attention or you get a lucky warp in (or both).
This statement is blatantly false. Kiting setups are actually quite easy to tackle, and typically have no recourse once this is done.
While the gallente battlecruiser hulls indeed tend to be a bit on the slow side, overall their blaster boats have adequate speed to get the job done even against minmatar (if you arent foolish enough to try armor bricks against shields), see Rupture vs Thorax.
But anyway, what you seem to be missing is that they are supposed to have a very hard time against minmatar kiters. These are their direct counters, and it is supposed to take very good piloting skill and sound tactics to beat them.
Direct counters to minmatar are caldari missile platforms and amarr pulse boats, not gallente blaster platforms. Expecting to be able to counter shield buffered kiters in armor buffered shortrange platforms however is outright foolish.
It is blatantly true, sorry to say. The whole point of kiting is that your ship is hard to tackle, would kind of defeat the purpose if it was. And yeah you're screwed if you get tackled in a kite ship, but that rarely happens. I'd like to know how you tackle kitey shield canes in an armor myrm, or hell, a shield myrm for that matter. I could use a good laugh anyway.
As to it being foolish to expect armor tankers to catch shield tankers, no ****ing ****. Why do you think I'm saying boost gallente speed and remove the rig penalty? The whole point is that CCP obviously thinks that the short range ships should be both slow and armor tanked at the same time based on bonuses and slot layout. Not to mention that the brutix is so bastardized when it fits a shield tank.
And speaking of counters, what exactly is an armor tanked blaster BC supposed to counter? The truth is it has no function because it can be faster and tank just as hard with a shield tank and do more damage at the same time. Logi removes the differences (though the difference isn't that pronounced to begin with) in buffer between shield and armor.
Again I ask, what is the point of having a close range blaster ship that is also armor tanked and near the bottom of the pack with regards to speed? The entire situation is indefensible.
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fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
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Posted - 2011.06.20 05:45:00 -
[140]
Edited by: fukier on 20/06/2011 05:47:39 people allow me to introduce the new and improved eagle.
crusier bonus: 5% to medium hybrid turret rate of fire per level 5% to shield resists per level
hac bonus: 10% to optimal range per level 5% to medium hybrid turret damage per level
lows: 2 mag stab II 1 rcu II 1 dcu II
mids: 10 mn mwd II 2 invul II 2 large shield extender II
highs: 5 250II with antimater
ehp 62K rof 2.79 optimal range 27km falloff 15km (total 42km activation range) damage mod 8.97x alpha 1267.86 dps 443
might have to sub a shield extender for a cap injector so i can shoot for longer then a min which means 43k ehp but makes you cap stable...
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A'Brantox Foson
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.20 05:59:00 -
[141]
note to self/everyone else
my catalyst does 380dps, my vindi does 2019dps... my dominix does a lot too.. so when the buff comes along, wat are the other weapon systems to do? Buggery!! |
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
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Posted - 2011.06.20 06:26:00 -
[142]
Originally by: A'Brantox Foson note to self/everyone else
my catalyst does 380dps, my vindi does 2019dps... my dominix does a lot too.. so when the buff comes along, wat are the other weapon systems to do?
what fit are you using? how much tank do you have. EFT warrioring doesn't really = ingame dps 100% of the time.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
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A'Brantox Foson
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.20 06:34:00 -
[143]
catalyst is standard gank/no tank...
[Catalyst, New Setup 1] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
1MN Afterburner I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Small Auxiliary Thrusters I Small Low Friction Nozzle Joints I Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Hobgoblin II x1
vindi is the one off ofbattleclinic.. right here 2019
also dont forget the vindicator is tied with nightmare as the best vanguard incursion ship.. any buff wud make them even more OPd Buggery!! |
Swynet
State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.06.20 06:51:00 -
[144]
Yes because Eve on line is all about vanguard sites...how silly people can be and think other stuff...
You, are a good eft warrior and I'll take your ubber destroyer every day at breakfast with my trasher and promise to use at least one civilian mod so you can have a chance of ever kill my ship.
The vindicator is like any other armor tanked gallente blaster ship, transversal+ med neuts shake a few seconds approach it and melt it, serve it hot and preferably with beer. If you're not doing it this way and you loose then you're doing it wrong. You can keep killing your npc frigs with your vindicator.
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fukier
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
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Posted - 2011.06.20 07:07:00 -
[145]
Edited by: fukier on 20/06/2011 07:10:01
Originally by: A'Brantox Foson note to self/everyone else
my catalyst does 380dps, my vindi does 2019dps... my dominix does a lot too.. so when the buff comes along, wat are the other weapon systems to do?
if you look at my suggestions for blasters you are not increasing thier dps at all... what you are doing is increasing thier alpha... plus fixing thier tracking with the ammo buff... your vindi still does 2019dps but now it does 11,000 alpha instead of 7,000
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Illuminaty
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Posted - 2011.06.20 07:17:00 -
[146]
Originally by: A'Brantox Foson catalyst is standard gank/no tank...
[Catalyst, New Setup 1] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
1MN Afterburner I Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S Light Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Small Auxiliary Thrusters I Small Low Friction Nozzle Joints I Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Hobgoblin II x1
vindi is the one off ofbattleclinic.. right here 2019
also dont forget the vindicator is tied with nightmare as the best vanguard incursion ship.. any buff wud make them even more OPd
What is this... I don't even know... What does it even DO? Seriously. It can't get in range of anything frigate sized, hell it couldn't even catch a battleship. Anything with medium sized weapons is going to burn it down before it even gets in range.
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Dorian Tormak
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Posted - 2011.06.20 08:08:00 -
[147]
Cat needs a MWD and Damage Control
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VC General
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Posted - 2011.06.20 09:07:00 -
[148]
My opinion has never really changed. I think they just need to admit there's no way to balance all three gun types and keep them unique. Make the hybrids more like the other gun types to achieve balance. Simply buffing them will not change anything until the min/maxers decide hybrids are better on paper than the other guns. Some people will whine and complain because you took an option away from them in the game of rock, paper, scissors, but I think in the end more people will be happy that they don't have to bang their head against the wall because they trained hybrids.
Another option would be to just retcon the whole thing, and remove hybrids from the game. Gal/Minnie are pals, as are Amarr/Caldari. Just give the gunless races their buddies' guns, with less bonused hulls to go along with their drones and missiles. You could also just add hybrids to the Minnie weapons, making them the new long range weapon instead of artillery, that way you can save the specialization skills, and don't have to refund 5 mil to half the players in Eve. |
Takseen
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Posted - 2011.06.20 09:12:00 -
[149]
If blasters are the analogue to sawn-off shotguns in space, giving them godly alpha damage and tracking would be a nice niche for them. |
A'Brantox Foson
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.20 10:34:00 -
[150]
Originally by: Swynet Yes because Eve on line is all about vanguard sites...how silly people can be and think other stuff...
You, are a good eft warrior and I'll take your ubber destroyer every day at breakfast with my trasher and promise to use at least one civilian mod so you can have a chance of ever kill my ship.
The vindicator is like any other armor tanked gallente blaster ship, transversal+ med neuts shake a few seconds approach it and melt it, serve it hot and preferably with beer. If you're not doing it this way and you loose then you're doing it wrong. You can keep killing your npc frigs with your vindicator.
it has become vindicators doin vanguards online.. but I dont fly a vindi, just saying if you want to make isk as fast as I know it can be made (in highsec.. non-creatively) blasters or lasers are the way to go... in that area they need no fixing.. and if they was buffed, they would be OPd... also as a pvp boat, vindis are OPd already.. like, just put bonuses on the ships lik was mentioned b4... as everyone was barking up the wrong tree.. pardon me for pointing that out :P..
fix rails!... fix silly faildari ship bonuses... gal damage bonus is fine.. so u can leave them imo Buggery!! |
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