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Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.06.15 21:27:00 - [1] Immediate stop to auditing and ALL services Due to CCP's utterly moronic attitude to those who want to help the community for free, I am forced to immediately shutdown everything I have made: - Running audits will be immediately and all aborted starting now. Fees will be refunded the next time I am so idiot to play this game again. - The upcoming RL trading course. Here is the list of open to everyone services that I will have to shutdown EvE Emergency Trust PLEX Charity initiative when RL disasters happen (featured on Fanfest 2011 videos, donated > $4000 to Japanese) Official EvE thread Hosted on Vahrokh.com official sub-site EvE Technical Analysis (finance) Official EvE thread Hosted on Vahrokh.com official sub-site EvE Public Audits Archive (Market Discussion investments) Hosted on Vahrokh.com official sub-site EvE Public Investmens Records (Market Discussion investments) Hosted on Vahrokh.com official sub-site EvE Charting Service Official EvE thread Hosted on Vahrokh.com official sub-site NEISIN free app Official EvE thread Hosted on Vahrokh.com official sub-site EvE Income Analyzer (trading / sales analysis graphs and statistics) Hosted on Vahrokh.com official sub-site Auditing \| Research \| 3rd Party \| Collateral Holding \| EvE RL Charity
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.15 21:37:00 - [2] You do realize that what they posted is a proposal and not necessarily the final version, right? I wouldn't do anything super rash until the whole thing shakes out. Personal opinion of course.
flakeys The Great cornholio's	Posted - 2011.06.15 21:41:00 - [3] Originally by: Hexxx You do realize that what they posted is a proposal and not necessarily the final version, right? I wouldn't do anything super rash until the whole thing shakes out. Personal opinion of course. As most things these days are ideas/proposals it IS obvious what direction CCP is taking so i can't blaim VV for acting this way. After years of empty threads finally the time has come to post a thread called : 'Eve is dying' where people will take it serious this time
Adunh Slavy	Posted - 2011.06.15 21:44:00 - [4] /Sadly supported
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.06.15 21:46:00 - [5] Auditing \| Research \| 3rd Party \| Collateral Holding \| EvE RL Charity
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.15 21:55:00 - [6] Originally by: flakeys Originally by: Hexxx You do realize that what they posted is a proposal and not necessarily the final version, right? I wouldn't do anything super rash until the whole thing shakes out. Personal opinion of course. As most things these days are ideas/proposals it IS obvious what direction CCP is taking so i can't blaim VV for acting this way. After years of empty threads finally the time has come to post a thread called : 'Eve is dying' where people will take it serious this time Yes, obvious....obviously speculation on your part. But feel free to post your own personal flair on the on-going "CCP Conspiracy" narrative embraced by the more reactive elements of our great community.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.06.15 22:04:00 - [7] Originally by: Hexxx Originally by: flakeys Originally by: Hexxx You do realize that what they posted is a proposal and not necessarily the final version, right? I wouldn't do anything super rash until the whole thing shakes out. Personal opinion of course. As most things these days are ideas/proposals it IS obvious what direction CCP is taking so i can't blaim VV for acting this way. After years of empty threads finally the time has come to post a thread called : 'Eve is dying' where people will take it serious this time Yes, obvious....obviously speculation on your part. But feel free to post your own personal flair on the on-going "CCP Conspiracy" narrative embraced by the more reactive elements of our great community. The reactive elements are those who end up interviewed by magazines and showcased at Fanfest. The others stay stuck in their "one day maybe take off" grand projects or look back at their previous grand projects. Auditing \| Research \| 3rd Party \| Collateral Holding \| EvE RL Charity
Candy Oshea Amarr Techfree Investment Group	Posted - 2011.06.15 22:26:00 - [8] .... ___ iCandy Bonds
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.15 22:35:00 - [9] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Originally by: Hexxx Originally by: flakeys Originally by: Hexxx You do realize that what they posted is a proposal and not necessarily the final version, right? I wouldn't do anything super rash until the whole thing shakes out. Personal opinion of course. As most things these days are ideas/proposals it IS obvious what direction CCP is taking so i can't blaim VV for acting this way. After years of empty threads finally the time has come to post a thread called : 'Eve is dying' where people will take it serious this time Yes, obvious....obviously speculation on your part. But feel free to post your own personal flair on the on-going "CCP Conspiracy" narrative embraced by the more reactive elements of our great community. The reactive elements are those who end up interviewed by magazines and showcased at Fanfest. The others stay stuck in their "one day maybe take off" grand projects or look back at their previous grand projects. Which is why your position is so personally frustrating to me. Do you really HONESTLY expect CCP to charge people in the end for this? Really? REALLY? Comon VV. We're smart guys here. You know, I know, and everyone else who's really thought this thing through knows where it's going to end up. Donations and ISK transfers are not going to classify as commercial licenses. So yeah, take your ball and go home, but it's a waste of your time and a huge dis-service to yourself and the people that enjoy what you provide given that this thing isn't a reality yet and, odds are, when it does become a reality you'll have nothing to worry about. So again, yes, I think you're being way too reactive. Do you have a right to be ****ed at CCP's fumble on the first proposal? Sure! But doing what you're doing now, you're giving up on it all before you even know what the end product is going to be. Damn it man, you're better than this.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.06.15 22:47:00 - [10] Originally by: Hexxx So again, yes, I think you're being way too reactive. Do you have a right to be **ed at CCP's fumble on the first proposal? Sure! But doing what you're doing now, you're giving up on it all before you even know what the end product is going to be. Damn it man, you're better than this. About 2 weeks ago the news interviewed one of the tens of thousands Tunisian immigrants who come overnight in my country on those fail cracking boats. He said: "we live bad in Tunis, I am going to return back but only after someone (else) has fixed our situation". I thought: "** poor, he is fleeing from his own responsibility, will complacently wait for some holy other guy to fix his own garbage and THEN will get back to reap all the benefits". How irresponsible and spineless!" And now, I am supposed to act like him? To let this manure be fixed by someone else and then sail over their results and reap the benefits? You said it: I am better than this. Auditing \| Research \| 3rd Party \| Collateral Holding \| EvE RL Charity

Ker HarSol Minmatar Zip - I	Posted - 2011.06.15 22:58:00 - [11] Supporting this move, hopefully many more will join. This is the only way to show how serious the situation is. Talk is cheap, and CCP knows that. Action speaks louder.
Lauren Hellfury Full Pocket Aggro	Posted - 2011.06.15 23:01:00 - [12] Edited by: Lauren Hellfury on 15/06/2011 23:02:16 VV you don't help to fix it by refusing to fight it. I've told you before what I think about your dedication to EVE and what you have managed to accomplish personally. You can pass that off as not having any choice if you wish. But there are many that wouldn't have been able to manage that. So, seriously, they aren't going to charge for Isk payments and donations will be a minimal charge if at all (compared to the full $99 license). I'm totally with Hexxx on that. Whilst it won't hold with your ideals, you cannot fight everything. If this is one thing too far then screw it. Let someone else take the strain for a while, it's not a sign of weakness. If you are serious about quitting then get in game one last time and pay people back. Don't Ji Sama yourself.
Myra2007 Millstone Industries	Posted - 2011.06.15 23:03:00 - [13] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha About 2 weeks ago the news interviewed one of the tens of thousands Tunisian immigrants who come overnight in my country on those fail cracking boats. He said: "we live bad in Tunis, I am going to return back but only after someone (else) has fixed our situation". I thought: "** poor, he is fleeing from his own responsibility, will complacently wait for some holy other guy to fix his own garbage and THEN will get back to reap all the benefits". How irresponsible and spineless!" And now, I am supposed to act like him? To let this manure be fixed by someone else and then sail over their results and reap the benefits? You said it: I am better than this. That guy at least has some dignity left. That's the most sickening bull I've read on eve-o in a while. Good job. -- Originally by:** CCP Elais It was a great Frankenstein moment [...] to see the forum [...] come alive.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.06.15 23:08:00 - [14] Originally by: Lauren Hellfury If you are serious about quitting then get in game one last time and pay people back. Don't Ji Sama yourself. I am not quitting the game (for now), unless they just give me the boot like they are apparently trying to do since a while. Auditing \| Research \| 3rd Party \| Collateral Holding \| EvE RL Charity
Brock Nelson Caldari T2 Technologies Unlimited	Posted - 2011.06.15 23:15:00 - [15] Edited by: Brock Nelson on 15/06/2011 23:15:55 Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha About 2 weeks ago the news interviewed one of the tens of thousands Tunisian immigrants who come overnight in my country on those fail cracking boats. He said: "we live bad in Tunis, I am going to return back but only after someone (else) has fixed our situation". I thought: "** poor, he is fleeing from his own responsibility, will complacently wait for some holy other guy to fix his own garbage and THEN will get back to reap all the benefits". How irresponsible and spineless!" And now, I am supposed to act like him? To let this manure be fixed by someone else and then sail over their results and reap the benefits? You said it: I am better than this. In that story of yours, you should've at least track the guy down and tell him to get the ** back to his own country and fix the problems there. In here, you would at least try to stop CCP from following through. But you're not, you're just quitting. "How irresponsible and spineless!" Warning: This person is a scammer and should not be trusted. ~~Viewer~~ Investor discretion is advised
Clair Bear Ursine Research and Production	Posted - 2011.06.15 23:21:00 - [16] Edited by: Clair Bear on 15/06/2011 23:21:41 You know what the responsible thing to do is? I'll show you mine if you show me yours Unless yours starts looking like mine all the bleating in the world won't matter. And in summary, bigger blobs are the answer. Now what was the question?
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.06.15 23:23:00 - [17] Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha on 15/06/2011 23:23:41 Quote: In here, you would at least try to stop CCP from following through. But you're not, you're just quitting Said by the one who quit with the investors money... Anyway there's a little difference between the factory workers barring their factory entrances and organizing protest marches and "quitting". I am doing the former in case you hadn't noticed yet. If / when CCP will pull their head out of where the sun does not shine I will happily restore everything. Auditing \| Research \| 3rd Party \| Collateral Holding \| EvE RL Charity
Alexi Blue Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.15 23:31:00 - [18] I admire what VV is doing and hope that more will do the same. Lately it's becoming very clear that CCP doesn't give a &$# about community and our opinions. It's also evident that general development and quality of EVE is not a priority for CCP. They spend way too much time and effort developing EVE related pet projects that have no positive impacts on the game. Originally by:* Lauren Hellfury So, seriously, they aren't going to charge for Isk payments and donations will be a minimal charge if at all (compared to the full $99 license). Probably, but just the fact that CCP releases such a statement in a devblog tells you a lot about people working on these projects and their knowledge about the game / legal side of things / general development, etc ... Imagine that you work for a major company and you come to a big client meeting to present your company's ideas. And you throw a dirty napkin with some &/!"# written on it at your clients saying "so yea, this is what we are planing to do". And after you get insulted by your clients you tell them; "no, no, ... this is just some stuff I was thinking about last night before I went to bed. It's just a work in progress, no worries.". ---
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec	Posted - 2011.06.15 23:50:00 - [19] I think your overreacting a bit VV. As Hexxx points out its not finalized, and its not very likely that they will have rules that are moronic. If your charging for services in isk and they arent leaving the game in any way, and you arent making real money by some scheme out of game, that is blatant indirect RMT, then I doubt there will be any issues. I think ccp are improve the game in a more profound way then most players realize. They are trying to solve the problems with RMT and the grey zone, by actually offering a way to work within the rules. The price even is bloody epic. For a mere 99$ per year you are allowed to actually breach out into the real world and from real world into eve, with what ever type of services you want to provide. CCP just want to make sure there are still some sort of control and shutters in place. Ex You could have your classes for real money using EVE as a template and direct marketing it in there. As it is now you would not be "allowed" to promote such real money service into the game, and vice versa if you had very specific services you could supply for isk your would potentially be barred. Now these walls are coming down, and all they ask is for a sort of Toll subscription, and the right to retain control. It would seem its mainly the free to play people that are complaining. THose that have subscriptions and pay gladly are not hurt by this development. Also those that supply any type of social service will benefit greatly. For the 99$ I am sure you would be able to have services running that made you a lot more either isk or even real money.. This move is an opportunity, not an EVE killer. let it mature, and we should all be very happy about it.. Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge cocktails and Dreams.
Faith Clothos	Posted - 2011.06.15 23:57:00 - [20] Originally by: Caleb Ayrania I think your overreacting a bit VV. As Hexxx points out its not finalized, and its not very likely that they will have rules that are moronic. If your charging for services in isk and they arent leaving the game in any way, and you arent making real money by some scheme out of game, that is blatant indirect RMT, then I doubt there will be any issues. I think ccp are improve the game in a more profound way then most players realize. They are trying to solve the problems with RMT and the grey zone, by actually offering a way to work within the rules. The price even is bloody epic. For a mere 99$ per year you are allowed to actually breach out into the real world and from real world into eve, with what ever type of services you want to provide. CCP just want to make sure there are still some sort of control and shutters in place. Ex You could have your classes for real money using EVE as a template and direct marketing it in there. As it is now you would not be "allowed" to promote such real money service into the game, and vice versa if you had very specific services you could supply for isk your would potentially be barred. Now these walls are coming down, and all they ask is for a sort of Toll subscription, and the right to retain control. It would seem its mainly the free to play people that are complaining. THose that have subscriptions and pay gladly are not hurt by this development. Also those that supply any type of social service will benefit greatly. For the 99$ I am sure you would be able to have services running that made you a lot more either isk or even real money.. This move is an opportunity, not an EVE killer. let it mature, and we should all be very happy about it.. I guess there ARE people that happily and eagerly drink the Kool Aid.

Atima Minmatar House of Marbles	Posted - 2011.06.15 23:59:00 - [21] Edited by: Atima on 16/06/2011 00:00:02 Will you be continuing the eye watering walls of text or is this considered a service aswell? Edit : Sounds harsh, What I really mean is will you be sticking around ingame/forums?
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec	Posted - 2011.06.16 00:15:00 - [22] Originally by: Atima Edited by: Atima on 16/06/2011 00:00:02 Will you be continuing the eye watering walls of text or is this considered a service aswell? Edit : Sounds harsh, What I really mean is will you be sticking around ingame/forums? I think we need a bit more fist shaking.. If for nothing else to make ccp understand that they really need to make this change work on all player styles and needs. Also so they may figure that a blunder in an ingame client feature is forgivable, but things like the PS3 exclusivity and this wording will get a different response. The players might be "plebes" but we arent going to accept any amount of crap. So I say FIX IT ffs. And VV dont worry your not gonna get hit.. Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge cocktails and Dreams.
Emperor Cheney Celebrity Sex Tape	Posted - 2011.06.16 00:16:00 - [23] We disagreed a lot, but you offer good tools and a lot of great effort at making EVE a better place, and it is truly frustrating to see how little CCP is willing to support their own players' attempts to make this game better.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Vahrokh Consulting	Posted - 2011.06.16 00:28:00 - [24] Quote: I think your overreacting a bit VV. As Hexxx points out its not finalized, and its not very likely that they will have rules that are moronic If no one moves a finger, the unfinalized manure will become steamy and steady manure. You got to have someone who puts their face to make things happen. This organized reaction has been started by the EvECommander developer and others have supported him. It's time to perform due diligence and act like the community of developers we (the participants) are. Quote: Now these walls are coming down, and all they ask is for a sort of Toll subscription, and the right to retain control. Right, if you lived in THE toll country, where everything you do since you have born has a toll and a bribe attached to it, then you'd have a sensible nerve when you see such ways being introduced in your favourite game. Furthermore these tolls come after the website has costed me half a year of work, after I finished the graphics, after I recorded the videos. And yet, I am meant to reatroactively pay? Because I have been such an idiot to support CCP in any way I knew? Heck, I even made the buttons EvE-inspired. Quote: For the 99$ I am sure you would be able to have services running that made you a lot more either isk or even real money.. This is an excuse and you know it. Did you know I had people insulting me on SCC Lounge when I dared to charge them 30M for a 14 hours long audit? And they are meant to shell RL money now? REALLY? Do you know how many people signed up to pay my market data feed service?? And handful. I could not even pay a fraction of the mere website cost with that. People are absurdly stingy, expecially when they feel they are being ripped off. And making payware what's been free for 8 years IS ripping off, however you color it. Auditing \| Research \| 3rd Party \| Collateral Holding \| EvE RL Charity
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec	Posted - 2011.06.16 00:40:00 - [25] Where did it say retroactively? That wont stick at all.. So meh.. This is not ccp trying to bleed people dry, its making it valid for people to subscribe again, and for players that cant sit at the screens 4+ hours per day.. If you ask me this is almost as good a direction as unholy rage, except unholy didnt really catch all the botters, and the RMTers are going to suffer from this move. The benefits are all at the paying customers and the players creating content. If you cant see that your really not thinking it to its end. Tycoon wannabe go here: SCC Lounge cocktails and Dreams.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2011.06.16 01:32:00 - [26] Originally by: Caleb Ayrania and the RMTers are going to suffer from this move. You usually have great input on a topic, however this baffles me. Legal non-RMTing person - pays $99 per year or stops offering services. Illegal RMTing person(s) - doesn't pay and still runs it's websites/services. If they get shut down, they will just start over again and say "** YOU CCP" like they do now. The players who benefit from the current OOG services are going to suffer. The RMTers will continue doing what they do now and could care less if they are in violation of the licensing agreement, after all they are violating the EULA and don't give a **.
Mu-Shi Ai The Chrysalis Group	Posted - 2011.06.16 02:59:00 - [27] Oh boo-hoo. Seriously, VV. I though you were more mature than to throw this kind of tantrum. At least wait for the final system to be put in place before you **** and moan about it. And hey, in the meantime, you can give your feedback, and CCP will probably change the framework. I honestly can't imagine that, say, auditing for ISK is going to require a license when all is said and done.
LiSung	Posted - 2011.06.16 03:23:00 - [28] Edited by: LiSung on 16/06/2011 03:23:14 Did I miss something? Didn't it say that free services can get a free license, and only that PAY services (you know, then ones where you'll make money) will require the $99 licensing fee? This looks like a MASSIVE failure at reading comprehension. I'm just not sure whether it's mine or his :)
Alain Kinsella Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.16 06:35:00 - [29] Originally by: LiSung Edited by: LiSung on 16/06/2011 03:23:14 Did I miss something? Didn't it say that free services can get a free license, and only that PAY services (you know, then ones where you'll make money) will require the $99 licensing fee? This looks like a MASSIVE failure at reading comprehension. I'm just not sure whether it's mine or his :) Yes, but 'pay services' include: -> Payments by ISK (gambling aka Blink, 3rd party aka Chribba, etc) -> Payments by Ad (even if the site hoster you work with forces them on you) - This includes most FOSS source code repositories IIRC, as as VV stated his site is on one of these too. -> Having a 'donate' button on the site (Dotlan comes to mind). So yeah, I agree with VV's decision. Sadly, I've seen this before, many years ago (with SL of course), it didn't work then and its probably not going to work well here unless they put in more sensible numbers on the payment. [BTW, I do hope Chribba tries this (or perhaps Dotlan?), even if just for next weekend. There's really no other site groups that will get a large enough number of people to that thread.] There's been some decent suggestions in pages 19+ on the original thread. Look for the bigger posts...
Ray McCormack Nordar Innovations.	Posted - 2011.06.16 07:02:00 - [30] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha The others stay stuck in their "one day maybe take off" grand projects or look back at their previous grand projects. Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Said by the one who quit with the investors money... Do you know how feeble it looks when you resort to irrelevant personal attacks? The simple truth here is you're having an infantile tantrum to try to prove a point, one that is quite easily made with measured, constructive feedback in a situation any sensible person can see will have a reasonable conclusion. I agree that shooting people with a headache in the head is a good idea, because it will stop their headaches.



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