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When did our 15 become not enough?

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Mister Smithington	Posted - 2011.06.16 14:47:00 - [61] Edited by: Mister Smithington on 16/06/2011 14:50:55 This first part is probably going to get me flamed, but here we go. CCP is a business, their goal is to make money. The fact that they're a game company is secondary. They saw that they were leaving money on the table and the decided to see if they could offer something to pick up that extra potential revenue. There is nothing unreasonable or immoral about this decision. HOWEVER! Like any business it is in CCP's best interest first and foremost to deliver a quality product. A business needs to make sure that the thing it offers in exchange for payment is something that consumers are willing to pay for. So far Eve has done a good job of this. MT for vanity items doesn't violate this, it just gives something else for those people who have a little extra money to spend on eve, without taking away or charging more for those who don't. MT for anything else degrades the quality of their product and enflames their consumer base. Licensing the right to use the API is just as bad. This community which creates programs like Evemon and EFT and websites like battleclinic and dotlan are some of Eve's greatest assets. How many other game communities have so many people working to make the game better? Again, by discouraging the community from attempting to improve the game experience, they degrade the quality of their product. This nebulous biz dev team needs to sit down and be lectured on what makes Eve great. Sandbox gameplay and a powerful community are two very important topics in that lesson, I'm sure. CCP absolutely SHOULD try to maximize their revenue, but before they put anything into place they need to stop and ask "will this degrade the quality of our product" and understand that if it does, it actually reduces revenue, even if it first seemed like a great money-maker. They shouldn't have to wait for the community to explode with rage before they ponder out the implications of their next great plan. Originally by: Sanadras Riahn Even with the Cataclysm drop, there were, at most, 20 or so quests that are actually different and worth doing, instead of the same old "go out and kill x number of dudes." And if you don't raid, then once you hit 85, that's it. For as bright and shiny as they made it, Cataclysm was very shallow, content-wise. What you mean to tell me it's possible to have quest content different than "kill 10 of them," "Gather 8 of them," "Click on 5 of them?" XD
Ripley Nostromo	Posted - 2011.06.16 14:50:00 - [62] Originally by: Midge Mo'yb Originally by: Acac Sunflyier Wasn't there a time when you didn't have micro transactions yet could still develop expansions and maintain the game? Did something change that you need more money for the same thing? I miss the old days... yeah, there busy using our money to develop 2 other games we give not one **** about... Wow are you that clueless about business???
Creepy Goat Collateral.	Posted - 2011.06.16 16:04:00 - [63] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Creepy Goat Y'all forgetting what that dev said during the brief interview on AT at the weekend. Subscription based games are becoming less popular, and games like World Of Tanks and League Of Legends (free to play, microtransaction based) are becoming more popular. He specifically said that if EvE wants to survive for the next 10 years then they need to change their business model, which implies a possibly large drop in subscription price in the next few years; the decrease in revenue to be replaced with microtransactions and more new players. If Eve wants to be like most other MMOs, then I have to point out that most other MMOs have wizards and elves. I'm pretty sure that CCP could make more money by introducing them. The thing is, Eve has the reputation that it has today precisely because it's not like other MMOs. Also, whilst the micro-transaction may well work in a mainly PvE game with a bit of PvP tacked on as an afterthought, I really don't see how it can work in a competetive PvP game without seriously unbalancing things. WoT and LoL are entirely PVP based games. The point the devs were making was that EvE, like all games, is a hobby. People like spending money on their hobbies. Hence the huge PLEX market. If the overall subscription price of EvE was dropped to <$10 a month, that drop in revenue would be made up by the people who use MTs. Do not forget that you can already buy ISK via GTCs which equals a direct in-game advantage. If you want an 80m SP character, you can buy GTCs, sell them for ISK and then buy a character. If you want BPOs you can buy GTCs, sell for ISK and buy them off the market etc etc. If the overall sub price for EvE dropped significantly or vanished altogether to be replaced by MTs, the game would have a huge influx of new players and encourage 'casual' play without alienating the hardcore playerbase. Some poeple will claim to unsub if MTs are introduced in such a way, but really, the effect it would have on the game is minimal and can you even unsub from a free game? The people who buy GTCs now will be the people who use MTs the most. The people who pay for their subscription with PLEXs would no logner have to, and would carry on as usual but with more ISK in their wallets, or less grinding and more playing. Of course I doubt CCP will make EvE f2p, however they have mentioned their desire to keep ahead of new games that use these alternative business models. So we could potentially see more significant MTs in the future accompanied by subscription price drops. RE balance, I'm not sure how spending $ on ingame items is different to spending $ on ingame ISK. As long as CCP keep it fair, i.e. no ships out of thin air and allow MT items to be tradable on the normal market, I really do not see how it is different to PLEX at the moment. In fact we would likely see more fun and useful items/ships/'paintjobs' (maybe subsytems?) to attract players to the MTs; new stuff is always fun (except SCs). What I would disagree with, is items bought through MTs that can only be acquired via MTs and cannot be traded on the market. This would disadvantage non-MT players, which is exactly what people do not want. ----
Ehdward	Posted - 2011.06.16 16:06:00 - [64] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Maverick2011 WELCOME TO CAPITALISM!!! Its always about wanting more and more money. Works for us, works for them. Capitalism generally fails when it becomes a race to make the most amount of money in the shortest amount of time with no regard for the future. Capitalism doesn't fail, businesses fail. And disregarding the future would be continuing to stick with a dated business model that is apparently no longer working.
Creepy Goat Collateral.	Posted - 2011.06.16 16:18:00 - [65] Edited by: Creepy Goat on 16/06/2011 16:24:07 Another point I forgot to make. I do not see a problem with releasing say, 'alternative' MT ship BPCs, for example a new insert corporation here BC for each race that has comparable stats to the current BCs but has different bonuses etc. It is not better than current BCs, but has different bonuses- an Amarr BC that excels in sniping (a BC version of the Apoc) for example, or a Minmatar heavy-missile boat. I do not thing that would upset the balance of the game. As long as the BPCs are able to be sold on the market once purchased via MT. What I would throw my arms in the air over, would be new race BCs that are statistically better than their standard counterparts. Especially if they were only obtainable via MT and could not be sold on the market. e: Againt, I would only agree with such implementations if the sub price was significantly decreased and/or removed. ----
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2011.06.16 16:19:00 - [66] Originally by: Ehdward Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Maverick2011 WELCOME TO CAPITALISM!!! Its always about wanting more and more money. Works for us, works for them. Capitalism generally fails when it becomes a race to make the most amount of money in the shortest amount of time with no regard for the future. Capitalism doesn't fail, businesses fail. And disregarding the future would be continuing to stick with a dated business model that is apparently no longer working. How exactly is CCP's business model not working? Most companies would give their right arms to experience the sort of growth that CCP has achieved while using a subscription model. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Shieko Chan	Posted - 2011.06.16 16:33:00 - [67] Originally by: Juliette DuBois You know that paper currency loses its value constantly? Mostly when governemnts do stupid things like devaluing currency and monetising debt. Never let government get involved in capitalism.
Alexei Antonov Caldari Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2011.06.16 17:28:00 - [68] As much as I love eve, if MT's in the game become anything more than paint schemes (NOT spawning ships mind you) and fluff items like clothes and or become not buy-able with plex bought with ISK...then I think that may be it. It turns a game into a pocketbook race. Eve is known for having some of the most intense and balanced pewpew on the market. MT's will only serve to kill everything CCP worked for in their "sandbox". Up the sub if you have to but for the love of god please don't put in item spawning/powerup/etc MT's. If I want a hobby that's going to nickel and dime me to death then I'll close out eve and throw that 15$ a month into rc helis lol. [url=http://gho.eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=375068] [/url]
Koramok Amarr Cold Carbon Institute	Posted - 2011.06.16 17:30:00 - [69] So Bill Roper is working at CCP now? .....
Acac Sunflyier Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.17 07:46:00 - [70] Originally by: Shieko Chan Originally by: Juliette DuBois You know that paper currency loses its value constantly? Mostly when governemnts do stupid things like devaluing currency and monetising debt. Never let government get involved in capitalism. Screw that. Government should deny capitalism. But frankly I want to say to CCP I'm disappointed in you. I remember back in 2008. You guys were so cool back then. I could barely figure out how to buy stuff off the market back then and get to where it was. But now you're making eve kinda a sell out.
Constantinus Maximus Paxian Expeditionary Force	Posted - 2011.06.17 07:48:00 - [71] Edited by: Constantinus Maximus on 17/06/2011 07:49:04 Originally by: Acac Sunflyier Wasn't there a time when you didn't have micro transactions yet could still develop expansions and maintain the game? Did something change that you need more money for the same thing? I miss the old days... When CCP got scared by the GFC and decided to invest all the money we pay for them to maintain EveOnline on 2-3 other unrelated games, while telling us it's Eve dev. Also they found it hard to get anyone to buy EveOnline off them without all these "any modern MMO should have" things.
Constantinus Maximus Paxian Expeditionary Force	Posted - 2011.06.17 07:52:00 - [72] Edited by: Constantinus Maximus on 17/06/2011 07:52:35 Originally by: Holy One Originally by: Midge Mo'yb yeah, there busy using our money to develop 2 other games we give not one **** about... The revenue from which - long term - will guarantee EVE continues to exist. How does generating revenue from cash-grab short term products at the expensive of flagship product quality help a subscription business with loyal customers?
Digital Messiah Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.17 08:20:00 - [73] This thread shows the perfect example of what kind of shoppers exist on the forums. You have the mall shoppers who buy anything they think is attractive and worry about the price tag later. You have the over analytical shoppers who try and calculate how it will fit in their budget. And you have the Stingy shoppers who don't want to spend anymore money than they already do because change scares them. Now I'm not pointing names or naming fingers here, but you know who you are. If anything I find it a testament, that a game goes 8 years without any form of micro transaction. Plus on the upside this will only drive the plex market up and hopefully the ISK farmers down. Why risk getting your account banned when you get a comparative amount of isk for a little more money? Not saying it will kill it, but it could help perhaps. "I have been wrong before, draw a point, i'll listen." Most of all I'm sick of seeing these threads. And I'm starting to question why of all times this is the final straw. How many expansions before this expansion have not directly covered all the bases? There is a huge majority of players I have met that don't even undock they simply get on to socialize and work the market or gossip. This is new content for part of the population. "AKA, stop being the spoiled brat at a toy store." You pay to play the game they create. At no point did you sign up to change it to your liking. This is without mentioning that CCP is probably one of the most caring companies when it comes to listening to your requests. Do you know how long classes in WOW, SWG, and countless other MMO's stayed Flavor of the month? The term FOTM exists because of that! Consider yourselves lucky they don't decide to make this game a beauty pageant with space vampires to get the millions of twilight fan girls. "IB4 WOD quoting" Things I like about this game. It has stayed to its original format more so than any MMO this old, There is no other game I have played with this high an impact player economy "take that for its ups and downs." And the community is strong and memorable, a good community will keep people playing for years. Hell I don't even like to think about how much time I have wasted simply chatting or doing something idiotic. All for the SS and LULZ. So stop ***ing about Ms.Universe until after she gets her crown. Than you can throw rotten fruit and flame for what ever the hell you expected this expansion to be. Last time I checked Incarna was always supposed to be walking in stations. A couple years ago the idea was praised. Glad to see you still care, just more ornery now. Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"**
Acac Sunflyier Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.17 08:27:00 - [74] Originally by: Digital Messiah This thread shows the perfect example of what kind of shoppers exist on the forums. You have the mall shoppers who buy anything they think is attractive and worry about the price tag later. You have the over analytical shoppers who try and calculate how it will fit in their budget. And you have the Stingy shoppers who don't want to spend anymore money than they already do because change scares them. Now I'm not pointing names or naming fingers here, but you know who you are. If anything I find it a testament, that a game goes 8 years without any form of micro transaction. Plus on the upside this will only drive the plex market up and hopefully the ISK farmers down. Why risk getting your account banned when you get a comparative amount of isk for a little more money? Not saying it will kill it, but it could help perhaps. "I have been wrong before, draw a point, i'll listen." Most of all I'm sick of seeing these threads. And I'm starting to question why of all times this is the final straw. How many expansions before this expansion have not directly covered all the bases? There is a huge majority of players I have met that don't even undock they simply get on to socialize and work the market or gossip. This is new content for part of the population. "AKA, stop being the spoiled brat at a toy store." You pay to play the game they create. At no point did you sign up to change it to your liking. This is without mentioning that CCP is probably one of the most caring companies when it comes to listening to your requests. Do you know how long classes in WOW, SWG, and countless other MMO's stayed Flavor of the month? The term FOTM exists because of that! Consider yourselves lucky they don't decide to make this game a beauty pageant with space vampires to get the millions of twilight fan girls. "IB4 WOD quoting" Things I like about this game. It has stayed to its original format more so than any MMO this old, There is no other game I have played with this high an impact player economy "take that for its ups and downs." And the community is strong and memorable, a good community will keep people playing for years. Hell I don't even like to think about how much time I have wasted simply chatting or doing something idiotic. All for the SS and LULZ. So stop *****ing about Ms.Universe until after she gets her crown. Than you can throw rotten fruit and flame for what ever the hell you expected this expansion to be. Last time I checked Incarna was always supposed to be walking in stations. A couple years ago the idea was praised. Glad to see you still care, just more ornery now. What we're really upset about is the ending of EFT and EveMon. I personally didn't mind Plex because it was free game time and I will always use plex for free game time. ButI was referring to the licensing thing they just came up with. I mean you have that and now more micro transactions. It's starting to get reddiculas.
Florestan Bronstein draketrain Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.06.17 08:34:00 - [75] Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 17/06/2011 08:34:23 Originally by: Digital This is without mentioning that CCP is probably one of the most caring companies when it comes to listening to your requests. Do you know how long classes in WOW, SWG, and countless other MMO's stayed Flavor of the month? The term FOTM exists because of that! ahem ... in my experience CCP makes balance changes to pvp once every few expansions... iirc the last major change to pvp balance were the projectile rebalancing and mothership rework with Dominion in December 2009, a very minor change were the T2 ammo changes with Incursion (~ 7 months ago). The last big rebalancing (that actually changed how you fit ships) was the nano nerf in mid-2008. Your post seems to imply that other games rebalance classes only once every few months - hence the term FOTM - and that CCP is somehow more active in that regard. I simply don't see how this is true.
Digital Messiah Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.17 08:35:00 - [76] Quote: What we're really upset about is the ending of EFT and EveMon. I personally didn't mind Plex because it was free game time and I will always use plex for free game time. ButI was referring to the licensing thing they just came up with. I mean you have that and now more micro transactions. It's starting to get reddiculas. When I first tried this game out there was no evemon or EFT. They are both nice tools and if anything I think it's nice the developers will now get money back for their much used products. This is going without saying they may still run it for free and ask for a donation to make up the 99$. Eve radio has been broadcasting for years off limited advertising and donations. I don't see the problem so much with it being this way. When you stop to think about how much money RMT from an alliance makes and how much CCP would make in equivalent with plex. This seems kinda silly all together. No one likes their sand castle being invaded by space crabs, only to watch get washed away in the ocean of corruption. Also, this opens the flood gates for many applications and hopefully someday third party skill training control. Nothing worse than when I want to see the gf for the weekend and having to go out of my way to fit my skill que. I do see the reason why everyone is afraid it's turning into another vivendi run game. Problem is CCP is now competing in that world. Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Zey Nadar Gallente Unknown Soldiers Soldiers Of New Eve	Posted - 2011.06.17 08:38:00 - [77] Quoting this in case people miss it. Originally by: trolburt At first I assumed CCP must have taken on a bunch of debt to make Dust and WOD. But it turns out it is CCP's owners that have huge unpayable debts. See this thread http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1364142/page/1 So, yeah, looks like CCP is going to be nickle and diming from now on. I'll pretty much everyone at CCP hates it as much as we do, but they can't say anything.
Kunming T.H.U.G L.I.F.E ROMANIAN-LEGION	Posted - 2011.06.17 09:18:00 - [78] Stop comparing EVE to any other MMO.. Eve-Online USED to be unique and elite. It was the jetset of the MMO world now its being dumbed down into another McDonalds!! I wouldnt mind if the monthly sub was 30.-EUR or even 50.-EUR, hell I spent more on the junk food I eat while playing EVE. I would prefer a high SUB price rather than cheaping down and killing this amazing game with a F2P, item shop, RMT model. This is EVE, it should be harsh and unforgiving, nowadays it just feels like counterstrike in space. RMT (talking about both legal and illegal) has killed the value of ISK, and therefor the very reason we had all those epic fights in the first place. There is no riches to conquer no treasure to protect, its just KB stats and CAOD chestbeating.. GTC/ETC was the begining of the end, I was one of the strong opposers of money to ISK conversion in any form and now CCP is bringing in more evil to undo the previous one.. microtransactions will be the end of EVE as we know it, it will turn from a hardcore fun and challanging game to some anime themed asian 3rd class F2P mmo. I repeat, I'd rather have a much higher subscription fee than RMT, itemshops, and other crap. BRING BACK HARDCORE EVE!!
Terrante	Posted - 2011.06.17 09:20:00 - [79] Originally by: Kunming Stop comparing EVE to any other MMO.. Eve-Online USED to be unique and elite. It was the jetset of the MMO world now its being dumbed down into another McDonalds!! I wouldnt mind if the monthly sub was 30.-EUR or even 50.-EUR, hell I spent more on the junk food I eat while playing EVE. I would prefer a high SUB price rather than cheaping down and killing this amazing game with a F2P, item shop, RMT model. This is EVE, it should be harsh and unforgiving, nowadays it just feels like counterstrike in space. RMT (talking about both legal and illegal) has killed the value of ISK, and therefor the very reason we had all those epic fights in the first place. There is no riches to conquer no treasure to protect, its just KB stats and CAOD chestbeating.. GTC/ETC was the begining of the end, I was one of the strong opposers of money to ISK conversion in any form and now CCP is bringing in more evil to undo the previous one.. microtransactions will be the end of EVE as we know it, it will turn from a hardcore fun and challanging game to some anime themed asian 3rd class F2P mmo. I repeat, I'd rather have a much higher subscription fee than RMT, itemshops, and other crap. BRING BACK HARDCORE EVE!! +1
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2011.06.17 09:26:00 - [80] I too would rather see increase in sub prices than silly micro-transactions.
Dekiri Gallente Useless Inc.	Posted - 2011.06.17 09:53:00 - [81] Originally by: Juliette DuBois You know that paper currency loses its value constantly? Actually the EURO inflation is almost non existant. My dad can beat up your dad!
Dasola Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.17 10:08:00 - [82] Originally by: Juliette DuBois You know that paper currency loses its value constantly? You know i do use electronic currency. Dont think i have handled any paper money for more then two years now. And continued technological development makes maintenance costs ever smaller too.
Florestan Bronstein draketrain Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.06.17 10:20:00 - [83] Originally by: Dekiri Originally by: Juliette DuBois You know that paper currency loses its value constantly? Actually the EURO inflation is almost non existant. 13% since 2005
Digital Messiah Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.17 20:37:00 - [84] Edited by: Digital Messiah on 17/06/2011 20:39:56 Edited by: Digital Messiah on 17/06/2011 20:39:29 Originally by: Kunming Stop comparing EVE to any other MMO.. Eve-Online USED to be unique and elite. It was the jetset of the MMO world now its being dumbed down into another McDonalds!! I wouldnt mind if the monthly sub was 30.-EUR or even 50.-EUR, hell I spent more on the junk food I eat while playing EVE. I would prefer a high SUB price rather than cheaping down and killing this amazing game with a F2P, item shop, RMT model. This is EVE, it should be harsh and unforgiving, nowadays it just feels like counterstrike in space. RMT (talking about both legal and illegal) has killed the value of ISK, and therefor the very reason we had all those epic fights in the first place. There is no riches to conquer no treasure to protect, its just KB stats and CAOD chestbeating.. GTC/ETC was the begining of the end, I was one of the strong opposers of money to ISK conversion in any form and now CCP is bringing in more evil to undo the previous one.. microtransactions will be the end of EVE as we know it, it will turn from a hardcore fun and challanging game to some anime themed asian 3rd class F2P mmo. I repeat, I'd rather have a much higher subscription fee than RMT, itemshops, and other crap. BRING BACK HARDCORE EVE!! I should assume you hate vanity shuttles as much as vanity monocles? I mean they serve about the same function. And I compare MMO's because unlike some people, there are others who have played quite a few. Also you simply shot down some of the better things I had to say about EVE. You know what I have always called an ornery veteran? A stubborn nay sayer... Stop wishing a MMO would never change. The whole point is that they are constantly evolving. Side note: You should really learn about inflation. It's this cool thing that happens when you have an economy that gains and loses resources. Btw ISK market value is player based. The community changes the eb and flow of it all. Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Morgana Invictus	Posted - 2011.06.18 08:14:00 - [85] Originally by: Sunji Togenada Originally by: Rodj Blake And did you know that despite that Eve is still has one of the most expensive subscriptions out there? Compared to what, exactly? Runescape? Did WoW start charging $9.95 a month when everybody but me was looking? Is this what SW:TOR is charging? Less? Seriously, what other MMO is this constantly repeated weasel-words "EVE IS EXPENSIVE" argument talking about because I am missing out on great deals I didn't make it past this post. WoW and Runescape don't require multiple accounts. Eve does, and anyone that argues this is a troll. Simply put, unless you have multiple accounts in Eve you are not effective. This is not the case in WoW or any other MMO that I am aware of. Eve IS more expensive than other MMO's because of this alone.
Juliette DuBois	Posted - 2011.06.18 08:59:00 - [86] Edited by: Juliette DuBois on 18/06/2011 08:59:40 Originally by: Dekiri Originally by: Juliette DuBois You know that paper currency loses its value constantly? Actually the EURO inflation is almost non existant. Nope. There has been extremely brisk monetary expansion in all parts of the world. And paper currency is same thing as electronic currency, electronic just expands and devalues even faster.
Jenny Cameron Caldari The Priory of Solitude	Posted - 2011.06.20 12:19:00 - [87] Why milk a cow for 15 litres a day when it can easily give 40? ________________* - If you're in favour of a bloodline change please vote in the Assembly Hall in this thread -
Rixiu The Inuits	Posted - 2011.06.20 13:19:00 - [88] Because EVE subscription numbers are no longer going up and are now flat since somewhere after the dominion expansion. Since CCPs financial plan seem to evolve around constantly having more and more money to throw around they need to compensate this by milking their "valued" customers that actually stayed instead of releasing interesting expansions with actual content. tl;dr CCP don't want to go back to old school expansions with :content:.

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