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Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.16 19:10:00 - [1] Edited by: Miilla on 16/06/2011 19:12:35 Reverse Engineering Quote: European Union Article 6 of the 1991 EU Computer Programs Directive allows reverse engineering for the purposes of interoperability, but prohibits it for the purposes of creating a competing product, and also prohibits the public release of information obtained through reverse engineering of software.[24][25][26] In 2009, the EU Computer Program Directive was superseded and the directive now states:[27] (15) The unauthorised reproduction, translation, adaptation or transformation of the form of the code in which a copy of a computer program has been made available constitutes an infringement of the exclusive rights of the author. Nevertheless, circumstances may exist when such a reproduction of the code and translation of its form are indispensable to obtain the necessary infor¡mation to achieve the interoperability of an indepen¡dently created program with other programs. It has therefore to be considered that, in these limited circum¡stances only, performance of the acts of reproduction and translation by or on behalf of a person having a right to use a copy of the program is legitimate and compatible with fair practice and must therefore be deemed not to require the authorisation of the right¡holder. An objective of this exception is to make it possible to connect all components of a computer system, including those of different manufacturers, so that they can work together. Such an exception to the author's exclusive rights may not be used in a way which prejudices the legitimate interests of the rightholder or which conflicts with a normal exploitation of the program. Please take note off... Quote: Nevertheless, circumstances may exist when such a reproduction of the code and translation of its form are indispensable to obtain the necessary infor¡mation to achieve the interoperability of an indepen¡dently created program with other programs. It has therefore to be considered that, in these limited circum¡stances only, performance of the acts of reproduction and translation by or on behalf of a person having a right to use a copy of the program is legitimate and compatible with fair practice and must therefore be deemed not to require the authorisation of the right¡holder. An objective of this exception is to make it possible to connect all components of a computer system, including those of different manufacturers, so that they can work together. http://lwn.net/Articles/134642/ Quote: In the European Union, reverse engineering is allowed under Article 6 of the European Software Directive, for interoperability purposes only, not for creating a competing program, and the law strictly limits what you can do with the knowledge you gain. You can't publish it, for example. As you know, the patent situation in the EU is a bit messy at the moment. Software patents are supposedly not allowed, after the Munich Convention, but folks have found ways, and that effort continues. Should the directive pass as presently written, it is expected to make reverse engineering of any patented materials illegal, except for limited exceptions. The directive also states that the ideas and principles underlying a program are not protected by copyright, and that logic, algorithms and programming languages may to some extent comprise ideas and principles. Iceland is an observer of EU and EU directives, directives have to be implemented in member states, unless exception allows and such exceptions are tough and rare, except where it directly impacts the cultural nature of a member state for example and even then such exceptions are time limited to allow them to adapt.
Doc Fury Caldari	Posted - 2011.06.16 19:13:00 - [2] So what? The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.'
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.16 19:15:00 - [3] Edited by: Miilla on 16/06/2011 19:16:10 Originally by: Doc Fury So what? Pretty much means we can reverse engineer eve to interop with it under EU law. CCP can do nothing without breaking EU law of which Iceland is an Observer. That includes XML parsing, LOG parsing, Database Parsing of client files including mechanisms, protocols etc as long as it is for "INTEROPERBILITY" (aka, EVE APPS) and not a competing product (another space MMO).
Doc Fury Caldari	Posted - 2011.06.16 19:19:00 - [4] Right but CCP own the data available via the API, and if your "reverse engineered" app is for profit or you accept donations for it, CCP requires you pay them for use and redistribution of their data. How exactly are you planning on reverse engineering what is essentially an EVE data feed when you don't control the source of data? The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.'
voiddragon	Posted - 2011.06.16 19:20:00 - [5] Originally by: Miilla Edited by: Miilla on 16/06/2011 19:16:10 Originally by: Doc Fury So what? Pretty much means we can reverse engineer eve to interop with it under EU law. CCP can do nothing without breaking EU law of which Iceland is an Observer. That includes XML parsing, LOG parsing, Database Parsing of client files including mechanisms, protocols etc as long as it is for "INTEROPERBILITY" (aka, EVE APPS) and not a competing product (another space MMO). Seriously, wtf, Milla. This doesn't require a response.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.16 19:20:00 - [6] Originally by: Doc Fury Right but CCP own the data available via the API, and if your "reverse engineered" app is for profit or you accept donations for it, CCP requires you pay them for use and redistribution of their data. How exactly are you planning on reverse engineering what is essentially an EVE data feed when you don't control the source of data? This is primarely targeted at non API applications such as EFT. That uses XML fitting files and calculations. you can troll and ignore all you want, fact is, EU law trumps CCP.
Ghoest	Posted - 2011.06.16 19:24:00 - [7] Miilla is right. They can can stop APPS from using the API but they cant stop people from using static game data as long as CCP doesnt offer a competing product. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Mister Rocknrolla	Posted - 2011.06.16 19:24:00 - [8] Originally by: Miilla Originally by: Doc Fury Right but CCP own the data available via the API, and if your "reverse engineered" app is for profit or you accept donations for it, CCP requires you pay them for use and redistribution of their data. How exactly are you planning on reverse engineering what is essentially an EVE data feed when you don't control the source of data? This is primarely targeted at non API applications such as EFT. That uses XML fitting files and calculations. you can troll and ignore all you want, fact is, EU law trumps CCP. I don't think you understand how EFT works. And we should accept your interpretation of International law??
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.16 19:25:00 - [9] Edited by: Miilla on 16/06/2011 19:26:50 Originally by: Mister Rocknrolla Originally by: Miilla Originally by: Doc Fury Right but CCP own the data available via the API, and if your "reverse engineered" app is for profit or you accept donations for it, CCP requires you pay them for use and redistribution of their data. How exactly are you planning on reverse engineering what is essentially an EVE data feed when you don't control the source of data? This is primarely targeted at non API applications such as EFT. That uses XML fitting files and calculations. you can troll and ignore all you want, fact is, EU law trumps CCP. I don't think you understand how EFT works. And we should accept your interpretation of International law?? Wording is clear in the Directive. EFT can ditch the Eve API dependancy and still functon as EFT and not require a license from CCP. If your purpose is to troll me, you are just shooting yourself in the foot. I am just putting the Directive out there so developers can know how it affects them. I know what the directive means and how it affects me as a developer and what rights I have, it is up to you to read it and understand how it affects you as a developer. Again, I am just putting it out there for developers in the EU know what standing they have.
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.06.16 19:27:00 - [10] ~~~
Doc Fury Caldari	Posted - 2011.06.16 19:27:00 - [11] Originally by: Miilla Originally by: Doc Fury Right but CCP own the data available via the API, and if your "reverse engineered" app is for profit or you accept donations for it, CCP requires you pay them for use and redistribution of their data. How exactly are you planning on reverse engineering what is essentially an EVE data feed when you don't control the source of data? This is primarely targeted at non API applications such as EFT. That uses XML fitting files and calculations. you can troll and ignore all you want, fact is, EU law trumps CCP. Good luck with that. last time I checked my copy of EFT connected to EVE's API to download my character info and the inventory database. Only ship fits I import or create would apply to your argument. XML is just a transport method, so no need to reverse engineer it. You can reverse engineer EFT for sure, but unless you manually maintain and update your XML data files, the second you want to obtain fresh updated data from CCP and you are getting money for your app you have to pay them. Also XML is just a transport method, so no need to reverse engineer it. You know how I know you don't know much about APIs? The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.'
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.16 19:29:00 - [12] Originally by: Doc Fury Originally by: Miilla Originally by: Doc Fury Right but CCP own the data available via the API, and if your "reverse engineered" app is for profit or you accept donations for it, CCP requires you pay them for use and redistribution of their data. How exactly are you planning on reverse engineering what is essentially an EVE data feed when you don't control the source of data? This is primarely targeted at non API applications such as EFT. That uses XML fitting files and calculations. you can troll and ignore all you want, fact is, EU law trumps CCP. Good luck with that. last time I checked my copy of EFT connected to EVE's API to download my character info and the inventory database. Only ship fits I import or create would apply to your argument. XML is just a transport method, so no need to reverse engineer it. You can reverse engineer EFT for sure, but unless you manually maintain and update your XML data files, the second you want to obtain fresh updated data from CCP and you are getting money for your app you have to pay them. Also XML is just a transport method, so no need to reverse engineer it. You know how I know you don't know much about APIs? Troll on; i did my bit. It is up to you to read up on it and understand it.
Ghoest	Posted - 2011.06.16 19:30:00 - [13] Edited by: Ghoest on 16/06/2011 19:32:03 Originally by: Doc Fury Edited by: Doc Fury on 16/06/2011 19:28:04 Originally by: Miilla Originally by: Doc Fury Right but CCP own the data available via the API, and if your "reverse engineered" app is for profit or you accept donations for it, CCP requires you pay them for use and redistribution of their data. How exactly are you planning on reverse engineering what is essentially an EVE data feed when you don't control the source of data? This is primarely targeted at non API applications such as EFT. That uses XML fitting files and calculations. you can troll and ignore all you want, fact is, EU law trumps CCP. Good luck with that. last time I checked my copy of EFT connected to EVE's API to download my character info and the inventory database. Only ship fits I import or create would apply to your argument. XML is just a transport method, so no need to reverse engineer it. You can reverse engineer EFT for sure, but unless you manually maintain and update your XML data files, the second you want to obtain fresh updated data from CCP and you are getting money for your app you have to pay them. You know how I know you don't know much about APIs? I use EFT without giving it my API. I suppose I lose some functionality, but since my fitting skills are maxed its not an issue. If your fitting skills arent maxed its very easy enter and save them in EFT. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.16 19:34:00 - [14] Lets not forget future applications that can probably bypass the API and use other methods, sure its more work but less licenses to manage. You don't need the REST API for everything, it is just "convenient".
Mister Rocknrolla	Posted - 2011.06.16 19:40:00 - [15] And all of the data in the DB dump? How do you get around using that?
Florestan Bronstein draketrain Test Alliance Please Ignore	Posted - 2011.06.16 19:45:00 - [16] Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 16/06/2011 19:45:28 Originally by: Doc Fury last time I checked my copy of EFT connected to EVE's API to download my character info and the inventory database. You want to tell us that your eve client is unaware of the inventory database (I guess Reverence is performing dark magic to read something that isn't there) and is never informed about your character's skills? that is strange...
Ghoest	Posted - 2011.06.16 19:45:00 - [17] Originally by: Mister Rocknrolla And all of the data in the DB dump? How do you get around using that? Its fair game. They can stop you from querying there system as part of your app but they cant stop you from using information about there system as part of your app - as long as they dont offer a competing product. Wherever you went - Here you are.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.16 19:47:00 - [18] Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 16/06/2011 19:45:28 Originally by: Doc Fury last time I checked my copy of EFT connected to EVE's API to download my character info and the inventory database. You want to tell us that your eve client is unaware of the inventory database (I guess Reverence is performing dark magic to read something that isn't there) and is never informed about your character's skills? that is strange... Inventory database can be scrapped from the wiki. Not all apps are equal and not all apps require full functionality of the API. Lets think beyond EFT, I mean EFT "like" apps that do calculations, you can input ur skill or implants manually if need be only once then click + or - to increse decrease them.. I am just giving examples... Again, it is up to you to decide if that is appropriate for YOUR application, again, not all apps are equal. Just putting it out there as more knowledge for present and future app developers.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.16 19:57:00 - [19] Edited by: Miilla on 16/06/2011 19:58:50 An interesting side effect of this directive is, their terms are null and void as under most contractual laws, if any clause is against the law, the entire contract is null and void :) Most specifically contractual terms clause # 21. Food for thought.
Doc Fury Caldari	Posted - 2011.06.16 20:07:00 - [20] Originally by: Miilla Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 16/06/2011 19:45:28 Originally by: Doc Fury last time I checked my copy of EFT connected to EVE's API to download my character info and the inventory database. You want to tell us that your eve client is unaware of the inventory database (I guess Reverence is performing dark magic to read something that isn't there) and is never informed about your character's skills? that is strange... Inventory database can be scrapped from the wiki. Not all apps are equal and not all apps require full functionality of the API. Lets think beyond EFT, I mean EFT "like" apps that do calculations, you can input ur skill or implants manually if need be only once then click + or - to increse decrease them.. I am just giving examples... Again, it is up to you to decide if that is appropriate for YOUR application, again, not all apps are equal. Just putting it out there as more knowledge for present and future app developers. You don't have to reverse engineer anything as long as you are not going to connect to the API and sell your app. If you can get your data elsewhere (not from CCPs API) and you are willing to manually maintain it through changes and upgrades CCP can't do much about that, at least not under the new API usage terms. Enforcement of this new change is going to be more trouble than it's worth anyway. Who's getting rich using the API? Killboards? Battleclinic? Certainly not Chribba. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.'
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.16 20:08:00 - [21] Originally by: Doc Fury Originally by: Miilla Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 16/06/2011 19:45:28 Originally by: Doc Fury last time I checked my copy of EFT connected to EVE's API to download my character info and the inventory database. You want to tell us that your eve client is unaware of the inventory database (I guess Reverence is performing dark magic to read something that isn't there) and is never informed about your character's skills? that is strange... Inventory database can be scrapped from the wiki. Not all apps are equal and not all apps require full functionality of the API. Lets think beyond EFT, I mean EFT "like" apps that do calculations, you can input ur skill or implants manually if need be only once then click + or - to increse decrease them.. I am just giving examples... Again, it is up to you to decide if that is appropriate for YOUR application, again, not all apps are equal. Just putting it out there as more knowledge for present and future app developers. You don't have to reverse engineer anything as long as you are not going to connect to the API and sell your app. If you can get your data elsewhere (not from CCPs API) and you are willing to manually maintain it through changes and upgrades CCP can't do much about that, at least not under the new API usage terms. Enforcement of this new change is going to be more trouble than it's worth anyway. Who's getting rich using the API? Killboards? Battleclinic? Certainly not Chribba. You can even SELL your Eve interoping application and you are covered by the EU directive.
Sader Rykane Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate	Posted - 2011.06.16 20:10:00 - [22] Don't worry people; once the new forums hit you'll never have to read another Miilla thread/post again.
Doc Fury Caldari	Posted - 2011.06.16 20:14:00 - [23] Originally by: Miilla Originally by: Doc Fury Enforcement of this new change is going to be more trouble than it's worth anyway. Who's getting rich using the API? Killboards? Battleclinic? Certainly not Chribba. You can even SELL your Eve interoping application and you are covered by the EU directive. As long as your app does not use the API you would be correct. Changing an app that once used the API to no longer use it in favor of static data files is not reverse engineering, building your own API would be. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.'
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.06.16 20:15:00 - [24] Originally by: Sader Rykane Don't worry people; once the new forums hit you'll never have to read another Miilla thread/post again. ~~~
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.16 20:17:00 - [25] Originally by: Doc Fury Originally by: Miilla Originally by: Doc Fury Enforcement of this new change is going to be more trouble than it's worth anyway. Who's getting rich using the API? Killboards? Battleclinic? Certainly not Chribba. You can even SELL your Eve interoping application and you are covered by the EU directive. As long as your app does not use the API you would be correct. Changing an app that once used the API to no longer use it in favor of static data files is not reverse engineering, building your own API would be. Reverse engineering is a very broad term, even parsing one of their emitted XML files is covered under it. There is also the fair use of their copyrighted works, art etc, as long as it is fair and not claimed as your own. There is so many ways in which their license is not worth the toilet paper it is printed on. You can expect probably in future they will reduce such data emissions from the client and push more and more into the APIs to keep tighter control, fine, just adapt then.
Doc Fury Caldari	Posted - 2011.06.16 20:19:00 - [26] Originally by: Sader Rykane Don't worry people; once the new forums hit you'll never have to read another Miilla thread/post again. True dat.. sucked in by a bad troll again. /at least I have chicken The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.'
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.06.16 20:22:00 - [27] Originally by: Doc Fury Originally by: Sader Rykane Don't worry people; once the new forums hit you'll never have to read another Miilla thread/post again. True dat.. sucked in by a bad troll again. /at least I have chicken I only have some super noodles (bacon flavour) and some tinned soups. It's about time I took a trip to the supermarket. ~~~
GateScout	Posted - 2011.06.16 20:24:00 - [28] Reverse engineering is fine. That was never in question. Using protected IP isn't. Don't misuse that clause. Also, getting IP law advice from a forum is probably a bad idea.
Miilla Minmatar Hulkageddon Orphanage	Posted - 2011.06.16 20:26:00 - [29] Originally by: GateScout Reverse engineering is fine. That was never in question. Using protected IP isn't. Don't misuse that clause. Also, getting IP law advice from a forum is probably a bad idea. Protected, such as? Copyright? There is fair use. EU directive is very clear. Wording is crystal clear. Eve Apps wishing to interoping with eve, CAN DO SO. Again, it is up to you to see if that affects your applications and if it is appropriate for your application. I am just putting it out there, wording is clear, if you don't understand it, go ask somebody who does.
Mr M	Posted - 2011.06.16 20:46:00 - [30] Originally by: Sader Rykane Don't worry people; once the new forums hit you'll never have to read another Miilla thread/post again. The new forum has a twit list? Oh the bliss. Write for the Eve Tribune

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