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AFK Cloaking and why it ISN'T a big problem

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Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.06.23 16:19:00 - [61] Edited by: Mag''s on 23/06/2011 16:24:58 Originally by: t'raq mardon Was anything i said inaccurate? do you not have the ability to train for a counter to anything i train for? except cloaking of course since it has no counter. The truth is that you have run out of excuses and are left to simply say that I'm lying. At least i am honest enough to change my opinion when a valid point is made. You on the other hand refuse to even have a discussion but instead throw accusation to avoid having to admit you are wrong. Most of what you say is inaccurate. I've said all I need to say, the fact that you cannot see the truth and don't understand game mechanics, is not my problem. Simply repeating myself to someone who either doesn't have the faculty to understand, or flatly refuses too, is an exercise in futility. You're not even honest with your intent. You hide behind the AFK argument, when really you want to just nerf cloaks no matter what. Start being honest, gain some knowledge about the game, then others may start listening. But until then, I'll call it as I see it, as will many others. Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
t'raq mardon	Posted - 2011.06.24 03:55:00 - [62] Edited by: t''raq mardon on 24/06/2011 03:57:21 Originally by: Mag's Edited by: Mag''s on 23/06/2011 16:24:58 Originally by: t'raq mardon Was anything i said inaccurate? do you not have the ability to train for a counter to anything i train for? except cloaking of course since it has no counter. The truth is that you have run out of excuses and are left to simply say that I'm lying. At least i am honest enough to change my opinion when a valid point is made. You on the other hand refuse to even have a discussion but instead throw accusation to avoid having to admit you are wrong. Most of what you say is inaccurate. I've said all I need to say, the fact that you cannot see the truth and don't understand game mechanics, is not my problem. Simply repeating myself to someone who either doesn't have the faculty to understand, or flatly refuses too, is an exercise in futility. You're not even honest with your intent. You hide behind the AFK argument, when really you want to just nerf cloaks no matter what. Start being honest, gain some knowledge about the game, then others may start listening. But until then, I'll call it as I see it, as will many others. I'm not hiding behind anything. I have said out right several times that afk cloaking is simply the proof that there is a flaw with cloaking. If there wasn't a flaw with cloaking, you wouldn't be capable of walking away from the computer with no fear of losing your ship. The only thing that i have said that is remotely untruthful is that afk cloaking violates the eula. I openly admitted that it was a real stretch to say that, and i was only doing so to stir the hornets nest so to speak. Everything else that you say is untruthful is simply not your opinion on the subject so instead of coming up with an actual argument you accuse me of lying. You make a very good argument for local being removed and because of your argument i have completely changed my stance on the subject, but you have not made any real argument against fixing cloaking and have actually said that you support the idea as long as it does not come before changes to local. Clearly you are here only to try to talk down to others, and act like you are somehow better at this game than everyone else, which i find hard to believe given the amount of time you spend trolling the forums and not playing the game.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.06.24 13:39:00 - [63] Originally by: t'raq mardon Stuff.........and act like you are somehow better at this game than everyone else... stuff. Not everyone else, just you. Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
t'raq mardon	Posted - 2011.06.26 21:18:00 - [64] Originally by: Mag's Originally by: t'raq mardon Stuff.........and act like you are somehow better at this game than everyone else... stuff. Not everyone else, just you. That's entertaining coming from someone who seems to spend more time talking about eve than they do actually playing it. Perhaps that why you have been incapable of making even a half assed argument against fixing cloaking.
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.06.26 21:36:00 - [65] Originally by: t'raq mardon against fixing cloaking. the cloak isnt broken, just to begin with
George Holden Gallente Syndicated Systems ROMANIAN-LEGION	Posted - 2011.06.26 21:53:00 - [66] Force anomalies/whatever to despawn even with people on grid and add a delay to cyno after decloak = profit? Just kidding :> I do think that preventing anomalies from respawning should be looked into but I think everything else is fine heck we even baited a bomber gang once and blew them to hell by keeping a fleet off grid ready to warp to the sanctum. Just adapt to the situation. Ratting/mining etc with an active cloaky in system feels like surfing with a tsunami warning.
Dograzor The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:14:00 - [67] Edited by: Dograzor on 27/06/2011 20:16:33 Oh hey, it seems we moved all here to nerf or not nerf afk cloaking whine thread #3098. For the OP & other people, here is the link to a couple constructive posts, explaining the drawbacks and dangers involved to player who (afk) cloak. If any questions, feel free to ask. - "We don't gank, we just apply force in a disproportionate manner during an uneven tactical combat situation to maximize revenue and increase shareholder value"
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.06.27 20:21:00 - [68] Originally by: t'raq mardon Originally by: Mag's Originally by: t'raq mardon Stuff.........and act like you are somehow better at this game than everyone else... stuff. Not everyone else, just you. That's entertaining coming from someone who seems to spend more time talking about eve than they do actually playing it. Perhaps that why you have been incapable of making even a half assed argument against fixing cloaking. Oh I do love the irony in that statement. You sir, have excelled yourself. Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
t'raq mardon	Posted - 2011.06.28 06:34:00 - [69] Originally by: Mag's Originally by: t'raq mardon Originally by: Mag's Originally by: t'raq mardon Stuff.........and act like you are somehow better at this game than everyone else... stuff. Not everyone else, just you. That's entertaining coming from someone who seems to spend more time talking about eve than they do actually playing it. Perhaps that why you have been incapable of making even a half assed argument against fixing cloaking. Oh I do love the irony in that statement. You sir, have excelled yourself. dude, you've made 100 posts in the last 7 days, its taken me almost 7 weeks to make that many and this is the most active on the forums i have ever been. The irony is you trying to discuss a game you dont seem to play. You should try actually logging onto eve and then perhaps you will notice how unbalanced and uncounterable cloaks actually are.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.06.28 08:07:00 - [70] Originally by: t'raq mardon Originally by: Mag's Oh I do love the irony in that statement. You sir, have excelled yourself. dude, you've made 100 posts in the last 7 days, its taken me almost 7 weeks to make that many and this is the most active on the forums i have ever been. The irony is you trying to discuss a game you dont seem to play. You should try actually logging onto eve and then perhaps you will notice how unbalanced and uncounterable cloaks actually are. I was actually referring to the 'incapable of making even a half assed argument' statement. But I do love the fact you are keeping such close tabs on my movements, I now know how much you love me. Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
t'raq mardon	Posted - 2011.06.28 16:44:00 - [71] Originally by: Mag's Originally by: t'raq mardon Originally by: Mag's Oh I do love the irony in that statement. You sir, have excelled yourself. dude, you've made 100 posts in the last 7 days, its taken me almost 7 weeks to make that many and this is the most active on the forums i have ever been. The irony is you trying to discuss a game you dont seem to play. You should try actually logging onto eve and then perhaps you will notice how unbalanced and uncounterable cloaks actually are. I was actually referring to the 'incapable of making even a half assed argument' statement. But I do love the fact you are keeping such close tabs on my movements, I now know how much you love me. Yes, because going to evesearch and clicking on your name and then click page five takes a lot of time and effort. Lets recap your argument for not change cloaking; The problem is local... Cloaking isn't broken... Local is whats wrong with cloaking... Cloaking has counters but i'm not going to tell you what they are... The problem is local... Think that pretty much sums it up.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.06.28 17:36:00 - [72] Edited by: Mag''s on 28/06/2011 17:36:54 Originally by: t'raq mardon Yes, because going to evesearch and clicking on your name and then click page five takes a lot of time and effort. But the fact that you found the need too do just that and spend the time, means so much more. Originally by: t'raq mardon Lets recap your argument for not change cloaking; The problem is local... In regards to AFKing, yes. Originally by: t'raq mardon Cloaking isn't broken... Correct. Originally by: t'raq mardon Local is whats wrong with cloaking... More dishonesty, as I've never said that. Originally by: t'raq mardon Cloaking has counters but i'm not going to tell you what they are... I and many others, have told you what they are. So again, dishonest. Originally by: t'raq mardon The problem is local... I'm now used to repeating myself with you. So again in regards to AFKing, yes. Originally by: t'raq mardon Think that pretty much sums it up. Not fully, you forgot to include all the dishonest statements you've made. Also the fact that you are hiding behind the AFK argument, when really you simply want to nerf cloaks, no matter how unbalanced your approach may be. Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
t'raq mardon	Posted - 2011.06.28 17:57:00 - [73] Originally by: Mag's blah, blah, blah... How am i hiding behind afk cloaking. This is like the millionth time i have said that afk cloaking simply shows that there is a problem with cloaking, its not actually the problem itself. For someone who thinks so highly of themselves you would think you would be able to grasp this. You continue to argue that by removing local you would stop all afk cloaking, which is untrue. Further, it does not address the issue that cloaking is uncounterable and renders the user effectively invulnerable. You continue to change the subject to push your own agenda, notably because you can't find an actual argument against fixing cloaking. Also, i took the 45 seconds to look up your posting history to point out to the rest of the people who read this thread how much time you spend trolling the forums. The point was you either spend far too much of your day thinking about a game and need to get a life/job or both, or you spend all of your spare time posting and must not have much left over for actually playing.
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.06.28 18:23:00 - [74] Originally by: t'raq mardon How am i hiding behind afk cloaking. Your only agenda is to nerf cloaks, the AFK argument is merely a smoke screen. I talk about the topic, AFK cloaking. I'm sorry you're upset that your agenda doesn't quite stand up to scrutiny, in that regard. Also why would I want to fix cloaking, it's balanced and working as intended. Originally by: t'raq mardon Also, i took the 45 seconds to look up your posting history to point out to the rest of the people who read this thread how much time you spend trolling the forums. The point was you either spend far too much of your day thinking about a game and need to get a life/job or both, or you spend all of your spare time posting and must not have much left over for actually playing. But you took the time to look, that's all I need to know. Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Fafnir Drake Gallente Boob Heads Fat Kids Cause Lag	Posted - 2011.06.28 21:33:00 - [75] Ok, you two.... Debate is good, but this is just bickering. If that's all either of ya have to contribute, just let this thread die. (Sad world we fly in when the OP has to say that... ) I mean, for god's sake.... quoting someone with "Blah blah blah" is something we do in primary/elementary school.... ------ "Tell a man there are 300 billion stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure."
Velator Nador Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.06.28 21:44:00 - [76] Edited by: Velator Nador on 28/06/2011 21:54:51 Even taking your model of anything using skill must be counter able. Lets say, they are counter able on a combat level usually. Cloaking does not affect anything else on a combat level. Now if they could shoot cloaked then yes. It would need to be counter able. But as they can not do anything and are even hindered except under special circumstances to a very large weakness after decloaking. There is nothing to counter that makes it any different than someone just coming into the system and fighting. They were just invisible before instead. So there is no need for a counter to it. It would be in appropriate potentially considering it serves no immediate threat. So you can chock it up to general tactics. And needing a buddy in this case and not soloing to counter. In high sec you are safe because wrongfully shooting you means death. In other space you don't get that protection and need to always have groups. So this just reminds you. 8) It is also countered already beacuse of the timer to do things before cloaking. Not to mention any ship that can decloak fast has weaknesses. It is already countered endlessly in other stats and parts of the game. You just missed it. The only thing you want is more freedom to solo in high sec. Which is wrong. I said before, it is countering you! And the balancing of stuff in this game is not a 2 dimensional thing. It can be countered by any part of the game in any way. it just has to be balanced! Not counterable! As is if you consider enough it is already balanced out by it's own design. The rest is meaningless.
t'raq mardon	Posted - 2011.06.29 05:20:00 - [77] Originally by: Velator Nador Edited by: Velator Nador on 28/06/2011 21:54:51 Even taking your model of anything using skill must be counter able. Lets say, they are counter able on a combat level usually. Cloaking does not affect anything else on a combat level. Now if they could shoot cloaked then yes. It would need to be counter able. But as they can not do anything and are even hindered except under special circumstances to a very large weakness after decloaking. There is nothing to counter that makes it any different than someone just coming into the system and fighting. They were just invisible before instead. So there is no need for a counter to it. It would be in appropriate potentially considering it serves no immediate threat. So you can chock it up to general tactics. And needing a buddy in this case and not soloing to counter. In high sec you are safe because wrongfully shooting you means death. In other space you don't get that protection and need to always have groups. So this just reminds you. 8) It is also countered already beacuse of the timer to do things before cloaking. Not to mention any ship that can decloak fast has weaknesses. It is already countered endlessly in other stats and parts of the game. You just missed it. The only thing you want is more freedom to solo in high sec. Which is wrong. I said before, it is countering you! And the balancing of stuff in this game is not a 2 dimensional thing. It can be countered by any part of the game in any way. it just has to be balanced! Not counterable! As is if you consider enough it is already balanced out by it's own design. The rest is meaningless. Cloaking does affect other players, not in a direct combat sense (like turrets), but it does affect other players. The fact that it can be used to affect other players but can in no way be affected itself is what i take issue with. I think being able to cloak in a system and be hard to find/fight is a great part of the game, but it should be hard, not impossible. Frankly, how much more affective would cloaking be at stopping others from running anoms/mining/ect if the residents were able to try to hunt you down as apposed to just having to either sit in a pos or ignore you and go about their business? I understand what you are saying about cloaking being countered/balanced by having weaknesses, but i don't think you are correct. I dont see it as being countered or balanced in any way, because it is a stand alone mechanic that has no compliment or inverse. It is a singular part of the game that renders the player effectively invulnerable to any type of attack from other players with the only limiting time factor being how long the eve severs remain "live"
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.06.29 07:20:00 - [78] Originally by: t'raq mardon Cloaking does affect other players, not in a direct combat sense (like turrets), but it does affect other players. The fact that it can be used to affect other players but can in no way be affected itself is what i take issue with. Back to basics then. How exactly does it affect other players? Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
Velator Nador Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2011.06.30 13:37:00 - [79] Edited by: Velator Nador on 30/06/2011 13:47:23 Originally by: Mag's Originally by: t'raq mardon Cloaking does affect other players, not in a direct combat sense (like turrets), but it does affect other players. The fact that it can be used to affect other players but can in no way be affected itself is what i take issue with. Back to basics then. How exactly does it affect other players? Here's your problem.(not mag's) The cloaking is purposely creating a constant feel of potential doom. it is on purpose. It is BECAUSE you are in a non safe area and have to think at all times you have to use teamwork. It's intended. You are not supposed to feel like it is safe to sit there in any sense. like at any time Armageddon can fall on your head. That not only means you need a buddy. But that the more people you have the safer you are(if they are not too stupid to know how to help which may be a game issues). That is the pushing force of the entire game. There is no reason to get rid of it. It's exactly what you are supposed to deal with in low sec. If you don't like it get people to protect you so you have a fighting chance" if he does anything. The fact you can see him would be on purpose too. Just so you have that very thought and act that way. Then the more you do that not only do you generate more safety for yourself but also more for others to fight more often. Making the game more and more interesting. Cloacking is literally helping(or meant to) to create more and more dynamic play. It's a counterbalance to the ability to not generate more intersting and dynamic combat situations! 8) The only counter to cloacking IS IN THE GAME. It is the high sec police! And their threat of immediatly killing you.(AKA the need to suicide gank to counter it.) That is all. The only current way under current game design to appropriately add a counter is to add low sec police. That is your job in low sec. Hence it won't and shouldn't be added. Not unless they are doing a major overhaul to the game design in some way. which isn't neccasarily bad. Just hopefully they do it well and to something interesting enough. BTW that means low sec and other are literally intentionally the I can cloak all I want zones and threaten you. It is a game friendly mechanic at that point. And is one heck of a motivation for better play and the game not degenerating into endless solo play and potentially making people want to play by themselves less often.(You can probably argue if that is the best way also but that is the point. 8)) So the argument on cloaking is literally what is the best way to get dynamic play in the game. Which is very arguable. You have forced or coersion type mechanics! like this. Or you have totally free and leave it up to totatl chance and the broader spectrum of reality to generate and regenerate. totally viable arguments. But that is what it would be about.
t'raq mardon	Posted - 2011.06.30 13:56:00 - [80] Originally by: Velator Nador Here's your problem.(not mag's) The cloaking is purposely creating a constant feel of potential doom. it is on purpose. It is BECAUSE you are in a non safe area and have to think at all times you have to use teamwork. It's intended. You are not supposed to feel like it is safe to sit there in any sense. like at any time Armageddon can fall on your head. That not only means you need a buddy. But that the more people you have the safer you are(if they are not too stupid to know how to help which may be a game issues). That is the pushing force of the entire game. I completely agree that null sec should NEVER be completely safe. That's the reason i argue that cloaks should be fixed. As it stands right now you can become 100% safe by using a cloak. So why shouldn't players with a cloaked ship have "a constant feel of potential doom"? afk cloaking simply proves that this feeling does not exist for a player with a cloak.
Barbara Nichole Cryogenic Consultancy Black Sun Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.30 16:58:00 - [81] cloak are not broken.. you are not 100% safe. You can catch a cloaked vessel if you know what you're doing. You should never be allowed to scan a cloaked vessel down.
Baaldor Ascendent. Gentlemen's Agreement	Posted - 2011.06.30 17:42:00 - [82] Originally by: t'raq mardon "a constant feel of potential doom". So all this crap is because you're scared and paranoid?
Robert Caldera	Posted - 2011.06.30 17:51:00 - [83] Originally by: Baaldor Originally by: t'raq mardon "a constant feel of potential doom". So all this crap is because you're scared and paranoid? its because a cloaker can cloak and walk away from the computer for hoursÖ
Mag's the united Negative Ten.	Posted - 2011.06.30 20:59:00 - [84] Just think I'll quote this, in hope of an honest reply. Originally by: Mag's Originally by: t'raq mardon Cloaking does affect other players, not in a direct combat sense (like turrets), but it does affect other players. The fact that it can be used to affect other players but can in no way be affected itself is what i take issue with. Back to basics then. How exactly does it affect other players? Originally by: Allestin Villimar Also, if your bookmarks are too far out, they can and will ban you for it. Originally by: Torothanax Low population in w systems makes afk cloaking unattractive.
t'raq mardon	Posted - 2011.06.30 23:24:00 - [85] Originally by: Baaldor Originally by: t'raq mardon "a constant feel of potential doom". So all this crap is because you're scared and paranoid? No, all this crap is because you can cloak in a system without being scared or paranoid you will lose your ship while your at work.

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