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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 17:41:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: Galdor
I agree with the OP and look forward to when the whiners just quit if they can't show the self-restraint to wait for CCP to iron out the bugs.
Some of us have been waiting for ****ing years. I love how all of you in denial default to calling us 'whiners' because you haven't understood, after hundreds of pages, by thousands of players, what the problems are. CCP and you: The deaf leading the blind.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 17:52:00 -
[2]
once again, your lack of an argument is replaced with personal attacks. And you're not a marketing exec, so stfu.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 17:55:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 17:55:27
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
Says the one that cannot post twice without insulting someone.
you're inconsequential.
hypocrite
You can't argue with him, he has his head firmly in the sand.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 17:59:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 18:00:39
I love how all of those in denial default to calling us 'whiners' because they haven't understood, after hundreds of pages, by thousands of players, what the problems are. CCP and you: The deaf leading the blind.
Originally by: REiiGN15
So much wrong with this game and they release that which has zero functionality to the game.
this. But don't bother going down that road, he knows better than a game developer about how to develop a game
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 18:02:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 18:04:01
^ this
By the way, in case your 'huge brain' missed it, the CSM are under an NDA so NONE of it will be kept under watch by players. Keep twisting and turning.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 18:05:00 -
[6]
you're going to have to do better than describe yourself, if you want to convince anyone of anything other than the fact you're an irate know-it-all
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 18:08:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
Personal attack, bold claim, refusal to pay attention to facts, ignore content in favor of context. Win at master debater team. Lose at social life.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 18:11:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 18:11:51
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
translation of the above "I cannot counter what he says, so I'll insult him".
pretty clearly, you already have been countered
oh by the way, you've personally attacked in every single post, and you call others hypocrites. You do understand what the word means, right?
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 18:14:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
feel free to read up
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 18:19:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 18:21:50
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
Kicking people in the balls isn't exactly the right way to make them learn or listen. It's the perfect way to be completely inconsequential.
You do it in every single post, so you must know.
.. speaking of learn or listen, something you seem incapable of doing, since you know better than everyone at everything, given the crap posted in all threads I see you in.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 18:24:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 18:25:31
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
I should look at my own posts before criticizing others
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 18:34:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 18:36:12
arguing nomenclature when the content is still the same:
There are countless promises still left unchecked, and then MT gets released, proving that priority is not placed in game play. That was the original argument, which you once again conveniently ignored.
People are tired of waiting for the GAME, not necessarily mad about MT
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 18:38:00 -
[13]
What impressed me about CCP for so long, was the fact that they didn't fall into the same trenches as other companies, and didn't require this stuff to have a fun game. They always claimed to be 'different' and the gameplay was the most important part. I am a believer in the fact that a game can and should be fun without a ton of fancy gimmicks. Take Minecraft as a perfect example. It is fun for many, and does not require a hi res 'station environment' for it's role play. Yes you can re-skin yourself, but the game was not designed around this for immersion. CCP went from hero to zero in my book with their recent moves to this end. I have trouble believing in future changes that will augment flying in space, if they clearly have abandoned their old ways, which made them unique, special. I play sports for example, because the game is fun, not because of the color of my uniform, or the behavior of the fans, or the style of the arena.
Player interaction is the key to all of this. This is what makes eve fun, and the interaction part is the flying, not identification with my avatar. My play in game is what makes my avatar 'who I am'.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 18:54:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 18:54:24
The reason most people are dissatisfied is the lack of attention to game play and game mechanics in EXCHANGE for the things you keep arguing about. AND CCP has a bad track record for keeping promises.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 19:05:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 19:06:44
I am most definitely NOT the only one who wants more priority placed on the spaceship part of the game. Just read up, if you are capable. Thousands agree with me. It certainly sounds more like you'd rather have the game tailored to your CQ needs. Once again putting words in people's mouths. And once again, your definition of a business model is not industry standard, just because you think it is FYI.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 19:10:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 19:10:49
He's already proven in his own mind that he's an expert on all things game development wise. He apparently knows better than I do and I AM a game developer. /sarcasm.
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
Time to cater to other needs too.
Says you. Unfortunately the majority disagrees.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 19:15:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 19:16:35
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 19:15:15
at this point it gets irrelevant as he doesn't have the relevant experience to back any of those definitions. He is not a game developer or financial expert, or business consultant, just a talking head.
If you disagree with my claim that it is the majority, the burden of proof is on you. I don't have the room to quote the thousands of comments made to back that up. If your little world can comprehend anyone else's opinion you'd see it everywhere. Read up.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 19:18:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 19:19:33
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 19:18:29
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 19:18:05
ah I see, I'm not allowed to claim anything based on experience, yet you are allowed to claim you are/know better than CCP's lead business planner?
Your hole gets deeper and deeper!
Go ask 1000 players and see what kind of reaction you get, if you choose to ignore everything anyone else posts in the forums.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 19:20:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 19:21:18
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
On the internet only arguments matter. Mine are solid and backed by experience, yours are not.
Prove that
... In his own little world.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 19:23:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
I am inconsequential
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 19:53:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
Or maybe you should provide a source of anyone in the industry using any other definition than F2P, P2P and Hybrid as referring to business models. Or using any of those definitions in a different way than I do.
I would, and you'd just say I was wrong, coupled with some defensive attempt at an insult.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 19:59:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 20:02:59
I've already wasted time in another thread trying to educate you and you know it.. It was an utter waste of effort, you wouldn't listen, and you won't listen now, all you do is argue.
You would argue the earth is flat if anyone said it was round, the point is irrelevant to you, it's just a sever social deficiency that keeps you coming back, disagreeing with people who are actually qualified to have a relevant opinion, and insisting on having a last word. It's childish and pathetic. I'm at work right now, send me your email and I'll put you in touch with someone who knows better than I, so you can refute it with him, if you care so much about winning an argument I'll expect it promptly. Sadly, though, you can't win this.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 20:04:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 20:05:58
prove you're worth the effort and send it in private instead of making public statements. Your ego is massive, this is nothing but a public spectacle to you, to make up for a massive lack of social ability. Do you even read anything you write? Does it not strike you just how pathetic you are? Go ahead and argue the earth is flat. I say it is round. Go ahead and disagree :)
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 20:08:00 -
[24]
shut up for a minute and read up and get the answer
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 20:11:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 20:12:19
he won't get a source. He is the source, of everything apparently. I have offered a source but I suppose that wouldn't be enough of a public spectacle so I won't hear from him.
Paxx. Post with your main, and try to say something that counts, if you have anything at all. If you have no problem with the game *** off and continue being a mindless consumer scrub.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 20:13:00 -
[26]
ah, you mean you can't handle someone telling you something that goes against your omnipotent views of everything?
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 20:21:00 -
[27]
for the record, I offered you a credible source, as if I couldn't shed any light on it myself, but you would rather quote pyramid until your trolling fingers fall off because you obviously have no real life to participate in, and would rather feel like a big man by arguing on a forum incessantly.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 20:25:00 -
[28]
just keep telling yourself that, he's laughing at you now.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 20:32:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
blah
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
blah
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
blah
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
blah
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
too much spare time
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
unemployed because of attitude problems
derp
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 20:39:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 20:40:17
"As I said, every single source in the MMORPG industry uses those three definitions. "
YOU DON'T WORK IN THE MMO INDUSTRY
It's not my fault if you ignore good arguments.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 20:44:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 20:45:03
No, you need to have prior experience to make CLAIMS that companies, who protect their internal affairs, act in a certain way or have certain policies. You simply have NO proof whatsoever, other than the fact that in your mind you know everything. Where do you get your proof? What is your source? You have none. You do not work in a studio, so your entire book of argumentative crap is moot.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 20:46:00 -
[32]
The rules of an argument.. Claims must be backed up by proof. Claiming you know something is not proof.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 20:49:00 -
[33]
for the record, I offered you a credible source, as if I couldn't shed any light on it myself, but you would rather quote pyramid until your trolling fingers fall off because you obviously have no real life to participate in, and would rather feel like a big man by arguing on a forum incessantly.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 20:51:00 -
[34]
'Gaming Journalism' does not equate to posting on game forums all ****ing day long, though you could classify that as your job I suppose.. The reason I continue is you are the single most infuriating know-it-all I have ever encountered while working as a dev.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 20:54:00 -
[35]
The original argument was related to the lack of advancement in game mechanics, which I will reiterate, has not been significantly improved for a long time. That, to me and hundreds/thousands of others, is the grievance. Backward priority.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 20:58:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Spumantii
for the record, I offered you a credible source, as if I couldn't shed any light on it myself, but you would rather quote pyramid until your trolling fingers fall off because you obviously have no real life to participate in, and would rather feel like a big man by arguing on a forum incessantly.
'Gaming Journalism' does not equate to posting on game forums all ****ing day long, though you could classify that as your job I suppose.. The reason I continue is you are the single most infuriating know-it-all I have ever encountered while working as a dev.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 21:23:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 21:24:29
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
Originally by: Spumantii
The original argument was related to the lack of advancement in game mechanics, which I will reiterate, has not been significantly improved for a long time. That, to me and hundreds/thousands of others, is the grievance. Backward priority.
See, what you seem to miss, is that this game is 8 years old. CCP is facing and about to face some fierce competition in the market. They ARE going to lose subscribers no matter what they do. Some are simply bored because 8 years on the same game are a lot, some are gonna go try other MMORPGs that are going to be released soon. Star Wars TOR is a prominent example. That's going to rip quite a few users off EVE, some temporarily, some forever.
The upcoming several months aren't going to be easy for companies that are operating existing MMORPGs.
This is why they can't simply work on iteration. They need to try and change the face of the game somehow to draw in NEW users to replace the old ones that will go away, no matter what CCP does.
The only way they can do that is to add some functionality the absence of whith has been criticized a lot in the past by people that couldn't get into eve (the lack of avatars) and updating the game to current standards graphics-wise.
I'm sure you feel all-important as a current subscriber, but the problem is that you won't make or break the future of EVE. What will make or break the future of EVE is the ability to attract new users to replace the old ones that will leave, as that's inevitable, and has nothing to do with Incarna.
maybe you weren't around and missed the fact that the engine was completely overhauled in order to facilitate the new pixel shaders and higher resolution models less than 2 years ago. All they need to do to add functionality is to write and test new script, and decent development practice means having an engine with pieces in place to easily facilitate the addition of new functionality. Fixing simple issues is not as difficult as you seem to think it is. Yes, people will leave, but you may have missed the reasons why people are leaving now, which has more to do with the lack of attention to fairly simple details, not having to remodel or texture the entire game. That was done, in fact, not so long ago. Perhaps before you started playing. Again, fun games do not require fancy fuzzy dice with displacement mapping. Do these dice have 6 sides? Do they roll properly? Would you leave the game if the dice didn't roll right, or if they didn't have fur shaders? Functionality should be first priority. Reskinning everything does not hurt or hinder gameplay unless you don't plan for it before you update the engine for mass use. The lack of avatars was NOT an issue for eve players for 7 years, and people kept coming to the game. You put an unfounded priority in adding character avatars as immersion when the ONLY thing telling CCP they should do this is marketing figures attached to games that are not eve.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 21:28:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 21:27:59
poor functionality has done more to disenchant new users than adding avatars has done to attract them. I don't think you've been playing long enough to understand this.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 21:49:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 21:55:03
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 21:53:23
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 21:51:58
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 21:50:34
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
Originally by: Spumantii
maybe you weren't around and missed the fact that the engine was completely overhauled in order to facilitate the new pixel shaders and higher resolution models less than 2 years ago. All they need to do to add functionality is to write and test new script, and decent development practice means having an engine with pieces in place to easily facilitate the addition of new functionality. Fixing simple issues is not as difficult as you seem to think it is. Yes, people will leave, but you may have missed the reasons why people are leaving now, which has more to do with the lack of attention to fairly simple details, not having to remodel or texture the entire game. That was done, in fact, not so long ago. Perhaps before you started playing. Again, fun games do not require fancy fuzzy dice with displacement mapping. Do these dice have 6 sides? Do they roll properly? Would you leave the game if the dice didn't roll right, or if they didn't have fur shaders? Functionality should be first priority. Reskinning everything does not hurt or hinder gameplay unless you don't plan for it before you update the engine for mass use. The lack of avatars was NOT an issue for eve players for 7 years, and people kept coming to the game. You put an unfounded priority in adding character avatars as immersion when the ONLY thing telling CCP they should do this is marketing figures attached to games that are not eve.
People will leave primarily because the game is old, and there's a lot of new stuff coming out. Not everyone remains fossilized on the same game forever. Those people need to be replaced.
If you think the lack of customizable avatars wasn't a problem, you may have not been much around people that don't play EVE. When you talked about EVE to a non initiated, there were two big "BUT" that came out:
The learning curve/unforgiving PvP and the lack of customizable avatars.
Obviously CCP can't make the game too easy, because that'd remove the biggest differentiation factor with the rest of the market, so what do they have left to revolution the game? Let you walk in stations.
Adding some more internet starships and layers of polish don't grab the headlines and don't attract new customers.
No. Look around you at the mass backlash toward what people are calling misplaced priority. Were you playing 5 years ago? No. I was. There wasn't then, nor has there ever been since, a significant desire to be anything other than a ship. You simply cannot say, just like you cannot say what development is like, what people were saying before you started playing. Your feelings don't represent the vast majority. I won't claim mine do either, but that's easy because the proof of what I'm saying is everywhere.
TLDR: avatar garbage has done more to disenchant than attract. Lack of working functionality has done more to disenchant than adding avatars has to 'make headlines'. Adding avatars does nothing to revolutionize the game. There is not a lot of new stuff coming out that has anything to do with the way people play this game.
TLDR2: CCP has made more headlines with PR fiascos than they have by adding station ponies.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 22:01:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 22:05:13
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 22:02:04
Start a poll. See how many new players expect and or care about their avatars. They are being brought up by veterans, there will always BE veterans, people who play the game for what it is, a game, not mr. dress up. Other games already cover this market. You said yourself EVE is a niche market, so why would they feel they HAVE to add the ponies? You contradict yourself. EVE players are not WOW players. Science fiction as a genre is what attracts people to EVE, according to everyone I have ever encountered, which by the way, is quite a few.
TLDR: f*ck. I wish some fellow vets would step in to agree with me. I know some of you are still with us, and I've heard you say the same things as me..
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 22:17:00 -
[41]
"Internet starships didn't draw them in for 8 years"
For 8 years, that is exactly what drew people to this game, not avatars. Where do you think we all came from? You yourself were around before avatars. Was an avatar the reason you began playing?
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 22:22:00 -
[42]
New players poll
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 22:24:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 22:26:09
"being resistant (to change) has no useful value."
I have trouble keeping a straight face on this one.. Most modern countries in the real world were started with exactly the opposite in mind. Most people that care about issues make change with one thing: resistance.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 22:39:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 22:41:15
"resistance" and "change" are diametral opposites
I'm sure you recognize that this is debatable. But in this context, CCP will only know if players don't like something if we talk about it, and act on our words. This should not be mistaken for 'whining'. (Were the founding fathers of some countries 'whiners' or heroes?)
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 22:45:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
Adctually MMORPG developers normally have several diagnostic and statistical tools to determine if a feature is popular or not. You should know that very well.
This is true, but it can't predict what new players will do or feel. And given CCP's record of not being on the same page as the player base..
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 23:00:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 23:01:16
Originally by: Abriael VonRosen
Honestly, though, I find it hard to believe that people find the concept of expanding the EVE universe to make it a more complete Sci-fi experience, even outside the staships, that terrible.
I don't think it's a terrible idea on it's own, the issue for me is the fact that they have done this instead of adding to gameplay, when it should be developed in conjunction with it. It's a question of priority, and since the CQ is just a room, it currently adds nothing, so IMO they should have finished the whole station experience first before releasing any of it, as it is it's simply disappointing, and it does not encourage confidence in their ability to further it in future, given the unfinished state of many parts of the game play. 5 years should honestly be long enough to have all 4 station types, all interiors, all functionality feature complete, but alas it seems the priority has been given to other games. The lack of attention to gameplay is more important to me, and is at the heart of my lack of confidence for the future.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.07.29 23:13:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 23:15:54
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 23:14:54
Edited by: Spumantii on 29/07/2011 23:14:05
I would have vouched for the second solution which would have been that a later release of the full experience would have more of an effect than otherwise, when combined with a really concerted effort to iron out things really holding the game back up until that release. I think they have enough customers that to miss the train at the first stop would be ok, there's no pressing need to exploit the new player market for a game that is honestly in a veteran stage- improvements to core gameplay would likely bring back MANY players who left, it has enough clout already that improving what's here then running the competition over later with the full ambulation experience later, would have yielded much greater returns. It seems like the 1 dollar today 10 dollars tomorrow analogy.
Developing 2 other games at the same time can't help this effort though. Chase 2 rabbits and you will lose them both.
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