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Harkonen Xaves
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Posted - 2011.06.28 12:51:00 -
[121]
When EvE drops to a "reasonable" margin of purchase I'm going to cash in my Tesco points and take over, muahahahaha!!!! 
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Vincentus
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Posted - 2011.06.28 12:52:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Vincentus on 28/06/2011 12:55:13
Edited by: Vincentus on 28/06/2011 12:52:18
 Originally by: Haven Wind
CCP do not have to get a loan, they could issue more stock, sell treasury stock, issue preferred stock, break open the piggy bank and dip into retained earnings, etc.
They could issue corporate bonds as a debt instrument instead of a bank loan, or perhaps they have some assets they could sell off. Perhaps licensing Carbon?
There are many ways to raise capital.
It doesn't matter how they plan on raising it, they will need to convince someone somehow that Dust is going to be amazing and that Eve is going to be an even greater cash cow than it already is. No one in their right mind is going to cough up 20M+ without any reasonable assurance they are going to get it back, and with a big bonus on top of that for the risk they are going to have to take.
edit: oh and there is no more treasure stock, no piggy bank, and retained earnings do not generate cash, so those are of the list anyway.
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Lrd Spike
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Posted - 2011.06.28 12:53:00 -
[123]
listen DUST514 is going to be cross platform based game.. it is going to HUGE mungus! so i again.. am not so worried and sources please! i want PROOF or it didnt happen!
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Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
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Posted - 2011.06.28 12:54:00 -
[124]
You also forgot that the Sony PS3-exclusive deal probably flushed in a lot of fresh $$$. |
Raven Aldura
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Posted - 2011.06.28 12:57:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Vincentus
Edited by: Vincentus on 28/06/2011 12:52:18
Originally by: Haven Wind
CCP do not have to get a loan, they could issue more stock, sell treasury stock, issue preferred stock, break open the piggy bank and dip into retained earnings, etc.
They could issue corporate bonds as a debt instrument instead of a bank loan, or perhaps they have some assets they could sell off. Perhaps licensing Carbon?
There are many ways to raise capital.
It doesn't matter how they plan on raising it, they will need to convince someone somehow that Dust is going to be amazing and that Eve is going to be an even greater cash cow than it already is. No one in their right mind is going to cough up 20M+ without any reasonable assurance they are going to get it back, and with a big bonus on top of that for the risk they are going to have to take.
They have 19 million in retained earnings they could dip into, and this is a great time for issuing bonds. There are a lot of investors who enjoy risk. (though I don't think of CCP as particularly risky given these financials.)
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Vincentus
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Posted - 2011.06.28 12:59:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Gnulpie
You also forgot that the Sony PS3-exclusive deal probably flushed in a lot of fresh $$$.
That could very well be (one of the ifs posted earlier), but we have no way of knowing that until June next year unfortunately (unless CCP is kind enough of tell us. Please?  ). This would lighten their load considerably of course, at least for the short term.
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das licht
Gallente
Echtzeit AG
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Posted - 2011.06.28 13:00:00 -
[127]
What's WoD?
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Snake Scofield
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Posted - 2011.06.28 13:02:00 -
[128]
OP knows what he's talking about, except how to spell bankruptcy.
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Vincentus
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Posted - 2011.06.28 13:02:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Raven Aldura
Originally by: Vincentus
Edited by: Vincentus on 28/06/2011 12:52:18
Originally by: Haven Wind
CCP do not have to get a loan, they could issue more stock, sell treasury stock, issue preferred stock, break open the piggy bank and dip into retained earnings, etc.
They could issue corporate bonds as a debt instrument instead of a bank loan, or perhaps they have some assets they could sell off. Perhaps licensing Carbon?
There are many ways to raise capital.
It doesn't matter how they plan on raising it, they will need to convince someone somehow that Dust is going to be amazing and that Eve is going to be an even greater cash cow than it already is. No one in their right mind is going to cough up 20M+ without any reasonable assurance they are going to get it back, and with a big bonus on top of that for the risk they are going to have to take.
They have 19 million in retained earnings they could dip into, and this is a great time for issuing bonds. There are a lot of investors who enjoy risk. (though I don't think of CCP as particularly risky given these financials.)
Did you check what their assets are based on? And what you pay on issued bonds is indeed low at the moment for bonds that are considered "safe", but a lot of investors are still very afraid of taking on risky assets (Greece anyone?). Anyway, still isn't ready cash, so the point stands.
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Takseen
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Posted - 2011.06.28 13:06:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Haven Wind
CCP do not have to get a loan, they could issue more stock, sell treasury stock, issue preferred stock, break open the piggy bank and dip into retained earnings, etc.
They could issue corporate bonds as a debt instrument instead of a bank loan, or perhaps they have some assets they could sell off. Perhaps licensing Carbon?
There are many ways to raise capital.
They've already exhausted their retained earnings, they can't go that route. And they might struggle to get any new lenders or investors when their balance sheet looks so dodgy. They had $24m of tangible assets at the end of 2010 against $33m of liabilities. $25m of which is due next year. They'll have to convince people that the $54m they've sunk into development costs will actually turn into revenue somewhere in the forseeable future.
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Takseen
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Posted - 2011.06.28 13:11:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Raven Aldura
They have 19 million in retained earnings they could dip into, and this is a great time for issuing bonds. There are a lot of investors who enjoy risk. (though I don't think of CCP as particularly risky given these financials.)
Its $25m in retained earnings, but the balance sheet figure doesn't represent cold hard cash. Its just an accounting figure to explain how they acquired $83m in assets despite only issuing $20m or so in shares and having $30m in other loans and liabilities. If those retained earings were all still available, they'd be under the Cash figure in current assets.
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SwiftShadow14
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Posted - 2011.06.28 13:11:00 -
[132]
Wow...you idiots will bite down on ANYTHING won't you?
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Nathan Rosenhal
Amarr
Arrakis Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.06.28 13:13:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Zombatar
Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 00:35:17
Edited by: Zombatar on 27/06/2011 23:37:08
Quote:
But again, CCP had $11M in cash Jan 1 2011. They are burning about $8M a year and will have about $4M left by the time their $11.8M dollar loan is due October 28th.
This explains EVERYTHING. Start reading!
(see note 19, pg 31)
New ways to make money in EvE will help when doing negotiation with the banks for a new loan.
Thank you.
Are you sure you know how to read a financial document?
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Raven Aldura
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Posted - 2011.06.28 13:25:00 -
[134]
Edited by: Raven Aldura on 28/06/2011 13:27:03
Originally by: Takseen
Originally by: Haven Wind
CCP do not have to get a loan, they could issue more stock, sell treasury stock, issue preferred stock, break open the piggy bank and dip into retained earnings, etc.
They could issue corporate bonds as a debt instrument instead of a bank loan, or perhaps they have some assets they could sell off. Perhaps licensing Carbon?
There are many ways to raise capital.
They've already exhausted their retained earnings, they can't go that route. And they might struggle to get any new lenders or investors when their balance sheet looks so dodgy. They had $24m of tangible assets at the end of 2010 against $33m of liabilities. $25m of which is due next year. They'll have to convince people that the $54m they've sunk into development costs will actually turn into revenue somewhere in the forseeable future.
So really the most obvious scenario would be to present to possible shareholders/creditors plans for licensing Carbon technology. Depending on whether they want to go the liability or equity route.
Of course with their margins, they might just be able to pull in around 20+ million in cash in the next six months.
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Dober Myn
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Posted - 2011.06.28 13:29:00 -
[135]
OP was prolly shooting a statue in Jita in the past week, too.
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Maplestone
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Posted - 2011.06.28 13:30:00 -
[136]
Originally by: das licht
What's WoD?
A gothic LARP (live-action roleplaying game) setting of vampires and werewolves. It is light on mechanics and depends heavily on emergent social-political play. The atmosphere of the way game groups self-orginaize into interconnected local and regional structures is very similar to EVE's emergent corporation gameplay, just minus the spreadsheets.
(It may not be obvious from the setting, but in tone and texture, I believe it's a very good fit for CCP's game design philosophy)
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Miss Rabblt
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Posted - 2011.06.28 13:37:00 -
[137]
one more thread in "Sensations, scandals and rumors" forum....
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Simanti
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Posted - 2011.06.28 13:53:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Boaz Hedion Merkava
Originally by: Simanti
Wow - I have to say CCP have done some things to wind people up recently - but clearly very few people here have any idea of how a company works, software companies in particular!
CCP MAY need to look at how they manage their cash flow and beef up their risk analysis - but they are not doomed.
Nice statement. Please back it up. With facts.
Facts are in the balance sheet - if you assume that WoD and DUST have zero potential then the rhetoric in this thread has some basis - if you believe it is worth a fifth of the potential CCP clearly do then the balance sheet says this is a solid company.
Lets say that WoD and DUST do end up with zero value - the company loses 3/4 of the workforce, maybe an office or two, and the company is back on track in 18 months with a healthy $5M to $7M clear profit - doesn't sound very termianal to me for Eve, maybe under that scenario for DUST and WoD, but not Eve.
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Spookyjay
Caldari
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
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Posted - 2011.06.28 14:03:00 -
[139]
We've learned a thing or two with our experiences with the NGE and don't plan on repeating mistakes from the past and not listening to the players.
ùJohn Smedley, president of Sony Online Entertainment
I only hope CCP figures this out before it's too late.
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Keno Range
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Posted - 2011.06.28 14:24:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon
Microsoft won't allow Dust to communicate with EvE, which is why CCP and Microsoft couldn't come to an agreement .
What is your source for that? Final Fantasy XI on Xbox Live communicates with Playstation 2 and PC players. No problem there, Microsoft did not have a problem with it. Dust would work very well on Xbox 360 if CCP wanted it to.
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Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.28 14:28:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Keno Range
No problem there, Microsoft did not have a problem with it.
"Did" being the operative word, most likelyà
ùùù
ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö
ù ÇÇP |
Seul Manus
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Posted - 2011.06.28 14:42:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Jada Maroo
Only 117595 more monocles to go!
Well I'm not going to buy one. 
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edith prickley
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Posted - 2011.06.28 14:44:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Simanti
Lets say that WoD and DUST do end up with zero value - the company loses 3/4 of the workforce, maybe an office or two, and the company is back on track in 18 months with a healthy $5M to $7M clear profit - doesn't sound very termianal to me for Eve, maybe under that scenario for DUST and WoD, but not Eve.
EVE could probably live for quite some time on a skeleton crew of 3 bug-fixing devs and 2 sys-admins, and at that staff level would make a bundle for whoever's running it. (I'd suggest that for the last year, we've proven this in practice.) As long as that's true, there will always be someone prepared to pay for the hamster food and give the wheels a weekly oiling.
So I guess the game itself is "safe" for a while, in one form or another.
In fact, a sizeable portion of the community could probably be convinced to sign up for pricey lifetime subscriptions if they promised to freeze the code today (better yet, as of two weeks ago) and guaranteed to do no new development at all.
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Farelle
Gallente
Core Impulse
Auctorita Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.28 14:47:00 -
[144]
Originally by: fdfsadgfasdgvasdfasdfasd Uanid
Originally by: Zombatar
They can simply take a new loan, bigger this time, release DUST/WoD and then we are all happy, with extra monocles colours on the market in eve. Or they can fail like a noob.
Anyway, CCP is risking all on DUST/WoD AFAIK, eve would be fine alone, actually pretty damn profitable $ 5-10 mil a year.
If you don't risk u don't win. Well you do but not as much. :P
Why would a bank give a company another loan when they can't pay off their current one?
Would a bank give a loan to someone on the dull?
yes, if you had assets they would. (re mortgaging for instance, say you have 15 years to go but can no longer afford the repayments, you re mortgage to a 25 year plan and pay off the 15 year amount with that, giving you lower repayments and the mortgage company more money over the long term)
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Seul Manus
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Posted - 2011.06.28 14:53:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Uuali
Originally by: Eranicus II
DUST is actually a very good idea and it will get CCP some good profits at least for 5-6 months covering all the expanses.
The main problem is that, I dont understand why CCP is bothering and spending money on fantasy MMORPG (World of darkness). Looking at the current market situation and all the future projects from industry giants, CCP has absolutely no chances on fantasy MMORPG market.
And of course EVE suffers because of the present situation...
I dunno. I'll bet the Twilighters would eat WoD if CCP markets it the right way. Of course they haven't really marketed EVE the right way. If they're wondering why they don't have enough subscribers one problem would be that they don't pump the advertising through enough channels. There's a number of times that I've thought how CCP could better advertise EVE. The bookstores, movie ads, action figures, music/ipod downloads free with ipod purchase etc etc.
And best of all, not just a boxed version of the game like they have now but every two years release all the good stuff as a paid expansion with all the hoopla at the game shops that go with it! I'd pay $30 every two years for big stuff rather than have to pop $60 for every little item along the way.
Another problem is the advertising trailers look *NOTHING* like the actual game. |
Maplestone
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Posted - 2011.06.28 14:56:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Miss Rabblt
one more thread in "Sensations, scandals and rumors" forum....
I think on this one, I agree with you. Prying into the financials of a company with the same speculative frenzy as patch notes is crossing a line. *makes note to stop posting in them* |
edith prickley
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Posted - 2011.06.28 14:57:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Gnulpie
You also forgot that the Sony PS3-exclusive deal probably flushed in a lot of fresh $$$.
You think so? Hmm, must drop by my local Sony store this week. I have some great PS3-exclusive ideas, and could always use some fresh $$$. |
Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.06.28 14:58:00 -
[148]
Here's what I don't get... ArenaNet, makers of Guild Wars, has a no-subscription paradigm. You buy the box, you buy the expansions, no sub fee. Only the first game is required, expansions are optional (but open you up to new continents). They have microtransactions that are purely cosmetic... armor skins, costumes and the like.
They're incredibly successful, selling over 7 million copies and fully financing the development of Guild Wars 2 for the past 5 years or so, which will use the same exact revenue model.
Why can't CCP at least see what and how they're doing it? Talk to them about what the players like in MT, what sells well at what prices? I'm not saying drop subscriptions... it's way too late for that, the economy would crap the bed (due to Plex tie-ins and all). But the MT model is highly successful over there and no one has any complaints!
Look at what's working, talk to the people. Learn from those that are succeeding. It can't hurt. |
Seul Manus
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Posted - 2011.06.28 15:19:00 -
[149]
I don't understand company finances, but if what is coming in - revenue - is more then what is going out - expences - then the company is doing ok, if its vice versa then its in trouble.
CCP should be like Polyphony Digital, and just concentrate on a single game i.e. Eve, the reason CCP is in such a financial bind is because they became over ambitious, and as such they only have themselves to blame.
As for this refinacing debt, a debt still has to be paid back, and keep the banks sweet is just bull ****.
Its that kind of attitude that has got the global economy into the mess it its in.
You have to live within your income, and that goes for companies as well as individuals, if you don't you deserve everything that happens to you, and that includes going bankrupt.
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Zozefin
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Posted - 2011.06.28 15:44:00 -
[150]
A few notes.
1) EVE is profitable and so is CCP.
2) Reduced quality and/or lack of new content of the latest patches is due to CCP giving an insane ammount of $ for the development of Dust/WoD. If i read correctly the numbers; at least 10m $ were diverted from the EVE income to the development of the other 2 titles.
They mention the development cost of EVE but not of the other 2 games.
3) 2/3 of the devs are not working for EVE. Thats the reason ofc behind all those delays in delivering content. Bugs, lag etc??? WTF r u thinking....
4) CCP takes a huge risk with realising Dust. Its a free game (no subs allowed for PS3 titles) so the price of the title will be around to 50-80$. For the box titles the profit is around 10-30% for the company. For the electronically delivered titles the profit is around 50-70%. If they want to cover cost they need to sell at least half a million copies. Now sony says that ps3 sales estimate at around 40m pieces. They need to sell Dust to every 8th owner of PS3. Even if they hav a store inside Dust; dont expect that every 16y old teenager has real money to buy items. And dont forget that there r other high class titles out there.
5) If they dont achieve their targets for both new games and if they have a bit debt they will be vulnerable to hostile takeover.
6) The last developments in the EVE world and the publicity that the Noble store took will hit hard EVE online and CCP ofc. The damage control and PR was poor the least. The reputation also got hitted hard.
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