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CCP needs $ 8 Mil by October, else bankrupcy!

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Zombatar	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:35:00 - [1] Edited by: Zombatar on 27/06/2011 23:37:08 Quote: But again, CCP had $11M in cash Jan 1 2011. They are burning about $8M a year and will have about $4M left by the time their $11.8M dollar loan is due October 28th. This explains EVERYTHING. New ways to make money in EvE will help when doing negotiation with the banks for a new loan. Thank you.
Ioana Cristea Caldari	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:36:00 - [2] sources ????
ACY GTMI Veerhouven Group The Veerhouven Group	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:36:00 - [3] Edited by: ACY GTMI on 27/06/2011 23:37:47 Are you suggesting that is our fault? Edit: Forgot one of my favorite mottoes. "Never encourage failure." *************************************************** Two years from now --> Gamer: "CCP? Never heard of it."
Judge Christopher	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:41:00 - [4] Originally by: Zombatar Edited by: Zombatar on 27/06/2011 23:37:08 Quote: But again, CCP had $11M in cash Jan 1 2011. They are burning about $8M a year and will have about $4M left by the time their $11.8M dollar loan is due October 28th. This explains EVERYTHING. New ways to make money in EvE will help when doing negotiation with the banks for a new loan. Thank you. Oh i don't care. Eve better die pretty, than become ugly greedy !
Zombatar	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:46:00 - [5] Originally by: ACY GTMI Edited by: ACY GTMI on 27/06/2011 23:37:47 Are you suggesting that is our fault? Edit: Forgot one of my favorite mottoes. "Never encourage failure." I blame $ 20+ Mil spent on WoD and Dust... That is the issue. You can't have one game (EvE) pay 700 wages, finance 2 game developments then have money left to re-invest in EvE. We are basically paying with our EVE sub for WoD and Dust, I could be ok with that, if EvE wouldn't suffer. This is not the case though. EVE is being milked to the last drop. Why? Because CCP was TOO ambitious. Too much for EvE it seems...
alexreborn Invicta. Rooks and Kings	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:46:00 - [6] if CCP goes bankrupt at least some **ty company like EA or Ubisoft or Blizzard might pick it up. EA might be a *, but at least they know how to sell the ** out of their titles. I predict turn around to profitablility in 3 months. Monocoles on every player, and SP for USD!!.
Righteous Deeds	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:50:00 - [7] Even if untrue, rumors of bankruptcy will only put even more financial pressure on CCP. That is really unfortunate. The epic nature of the PR failure is one of the most fascinating parts of this whole thing. Makes you wonder of they'd have leveled with the CSM at least, and taken their advice, if the players themselves could not have helped find a way to increase CCP profitability. (Not to imply that they in fact have a foot in the grave at this time.)
I Love Boobies Amarr All Hail Boobies	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:50:00 - [8] I've already contributed my 2 cents.
Mia Aires	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:50:00 - [9] CCP got monocled!
Renan Ruivo Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:52:00 - [10] Originally by: Zombatar Originally by: ACY GTMI Edited by: ACY GTMI on 27/06/2011 23:37:47 Are you suggesting that is our fault? Edit: Forgot one of my favorite mottoes. "Never encourage failure." I blame $ 20+ Mil spent on WoD and Dust... That is the issue. You can't have one game (EvE) pay 700 wages, finance 2 game developments then have money left to re-invest in EvE. We are basically paying with our EVE sub for WoD and Dust, I could be ok with that, if EvE wouldn't suffer. This is not the case though. EVE is being milked to the last drop. Why? Because CCP was TOO ambitious. Too much for EvE it seems... ____________ Originally by: CCP Guard Nobody gets to ruin EVE but us!

Takseen	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:53:00 - [11] Originally by: alexreborn if CCP goes bankrupt at least some **ty company like EA or Ubisoft or Blizzard might pick it up. EA might be a *, but at least they know how to sell the ** out of their titles. I predict turn around to profitablility in 3 months. Monocoles on every player, and SP for USD!!. Eve Online itself is perfectly profitable, they wouldn't need to change anything with it. Just can development of WoD. Blizzard are the masters of cancelling games with years of development work done, see Warcraft Adventures or Starcraft:Ghost.
Arias Dren	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:54:00 - [12] LOVING how the CCP apologists and alts are staying FAR away from this topic right now. Speaks volumes.
Zombatar	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:57:00 - [13] They can simply take a new loan, bigger this time, release DUST/WoD and then we are all happy, with extra monocles colours on the market in eve. Or they can fail like a noob. Anyway, CCP is risking all on DUST/WoD AFAIK, eve would be fine alone, actually pretty damn profitable $ 5-10 mil a year. If you don't risk u don't win. Well you do but not as much. :P
Shadow XII	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:58:00 - [14] Originally by: Arias Dren LOVING how the CCP apologists and alts are staying FAR away from this topic right now. Speaks volumes. You can't argue with cold hard fact, and the fact is CCP has dug themselves into a pit with their own over-ambitious bull**. Trying to take the income from one game to maintain it and make two others? What the ** were they thinking?
Demure Guise	Posted - 2011.06.27 23:59:00 - [15] Originally by: Zombatar Edited by: Zombatar on 27/06/2011 23:37:08 Quote: But again, CCP had $11M in cash Jan 1 2011. They are burning about $8M a year and will have about $4M left by the time their $11.8M dollar loan is due October 28th. This explains EVERYTHING. New ways to make money in EvE will help when doing negotiation with the banks for a new loan. Thank you. "UNGRATEFUL BAZTARDZ - BUY MOAR MONOCLES!"
diaufop	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:00:00 - [16] Originally by: Arias Dren LOVING how the CCP apologists and alts are staying FAR away from this topic right now. Speaks volumes. They already tried in the numerous other threads on this topic. They'll get around to this one soon.
Josefine Etrange Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:08:00 - [17] Originally by: Zombatar Edited by: Zombatar on 27/06/2011 23:37:08 Quote: But again, CCP had $11M in cash Jan 1 2011. They are burning about $8M a year and will have about $4M left by the time their $11.8M dollar loan is due October 28th. This explains EVERYTHING. New ways to make money in EvE will help when doing negotiation with the banks for a new loan. Thank you. Yes, it really explains a lot. Lets hope for ccp and for dust and for WoD and most important: Lets hope for eve. Looks pretty grim: http://failheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2522 Why a forum in the year 2011 still has no automatic double post merge which can be done even with javascript mostly is beyond my understanding.
Zombatar	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:11:00 - [18] Originally by: Josefine Etrange Originally by: Zombatar Edited by: Zombatar on 27/06/2011 23:37:08 Quote: But again, CCP had $11M in cash Jan 1 2011. They are burning about $8M a year and will have about $4M left by the time their $11.8M dollar loan is due October 28th. This explains EVERYTHING. New ways to make money in EvE will help when doing negotiation with the banks for a new loan. Thank you. Yes, it really explains a lot. Lets hope for ccp and for dust and for WoD and most important: Lets hope for eve. Looks pretty grim: http://failheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2522 Check this quote just before they released the balance on the forum. Guess the guy was right even before we read it. Quote: Well, they are not broke today that is for sure. I don't know the structure of their debt though, so it is possible that they are looking at a massive bill down the road & ing their pants. That seems unlikely though.
Indy Rider Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:12:00 - [19] Its 800k, not 8 million. EVE is still profitable, the problem is that WoD and Dust dev costs are going through the roof at the moment. The problem is, CCP have a loan of 12 million due in October they have to pay, of which they have 11.2. Once they pay that back they have no cash. Thats the problem, not bankruptcy. It also explains the 18 months of nothing, it was to cut costs. And as to why Incarna was rushed and buggy, get new subs along side MT so they can pay this loan back.
Ruze Ahkor'Murkon Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:16:00 - [20] Considering Sony is rumored to be paying them back for the development costs of Dust due to it being a playstation digital download exclusive? A rumor from a source I trust implicitly, but don't expect you to. But hey, if it does come around, how much bank does that make? Posts by Ruze Ahkor'Murkon and Ruze

7Boy Curry	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:21:00 - [21] Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon Considering Sony is rumored to be paying them back for the development costs of Dust due to it being a playstation digital download exclusive? A rumor from a source I trust implicitly, but don't expect you to. But hey, if it does come around, how much bank does that make? Considering they haven't even got Dust up and running yet, and we all know how careful CCP is in deploying code... Now multiply the last couple bugfixes x 2 when it launches, plus interaction issues.... I'm thinking it won't be making money soon, since it's free, and people aren't going to buy toys if the platform isn't stable.... Sony buyout coming by default?
Tugrath Akers	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:22:00 - [22] The pants! We must sell them!
fdfsadgfasdgvasdfasdfasd Uanid	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:23:00 - [23] Originally by: Zombatar They can simply take a new loan, bigger this time, release DUST/WoD and then we are all happy, with extra monocles colours on the market in eve. Or they can fail like a noob. Anyway, CCP is risking all on DUST/WoD AFAIK, eve would be fine alone, actually pretty damn profitable $ 5-10 mil a year. If you don't risk u don't win. Well you do but not as much. :P Why would a bank give a company another loan when they can't pay off their current one? Would a bank give a loan to someone on the dull?
Zombatar	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:24:00 - [24] Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 00:26:22 Originally by: Indy Rider Its 800k, not 8 million. EVE is still profitable, the problem is that WoD and Dust dev costs are going through the roof at the moment. The problem is, CCP have a loan of 12 million due in October they have to pay, of which they have 11.2. Once they pay that back they have no cash. Thats the problem, not bankruptcy. It also explains the 18 months of nothing, it was to cut costs. And as to why Incarna was rushed and buggy, get new subs along side MT so they can pay this loan back. False. They had $ 11.223.672 cash at 31 Dec 2010. They spend about $ 8 Mil cash/year. By October 2011 they have to bring an extra 12 mil out of nowhere to pay the loan. You do the math. Originally by: fdfsadgfasdgvasdfasdfasd Uanid Originally by: Zombatar They can simply take a new loan, bigger this time, release DUST/WoD and then we are all happy, with extra monocles colours on the market in eve. Or they can fail like a noob. Anyway, CCP is risking all on DUST/WoD AFAIK, eve would be fine alone, actually pretty damn profitable $ 5-10 mil a year. If you don't risk u don't win. Well you do but not as much. :P Why would a bank give a company another loan when they can't pay off their current one? Would a bank give a loan to someone on the dull? This happens all time mate. Banks give u cash, so at the end they take double back. And they will give CCP loans, u know why? Because CCP has assets worth $ 80 Mil, so if they can't pay CCP defaults and the bank takes that and sells it.
Jada Maroo	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:26:00 - [25] Only 117595 more monocles to go!
Ruze Ahkor'Murkon Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:26:00 - [26] Originally by: 7Boy Curry Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon Considering Sony is rumored to be paying them back for the development costs of Dust due to it being a playstation digital download exclusive? A rumor from a source I trust implicitly, but don't expect you to. But hey, if it does come around, how much bank does that make? Considering they haven't even got Dust up and running yet, and we all know how careful CCP is in deploying code... Now multiply the last couple bugfixes x 2 when it launches, plus interaction issues.... I'm thinking it won't be making money soon, since it's free, and people aren't going to buy toys if the platform isn't stable.... Sony buyout coming by default? Considering SOE brought over CCP's server techs to setup their recent upgrade and code structure, because despite the propaganda on these forums, our bugs are miniscule compared to every other MMO I've personally played? It's all a matter of perspective. We have some of the most complex code of ANY massive-user access program, doing things that NO other game comes close to. Will dust have issues. Heheheh ... I bet it does But the thing I feel is a no-brainer (arguable, for sure, but I've been around the industry for years) is that no other game development company at this time could come close to doing what Dust is supposed to do. Posts by Ruze Ahkor'Murkon and Ruze
Tobiaz Spacerats	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:26:00 - [27] I'm no finance geek, but couldn't they just get another loan? Aside of the brilliant idea of trying to make two new games at once, CCP is making a decent profit right? Don't know if that's the same over a few weeks though. Incarnage is going make the Summer of Rage look like a hiccup if CCP isn't going to work out things with the community. + 1500 votes on MT in EVE \| NO 79.03% \| YES 5.02% \| COSMETIC ONLY 11.23% \| OTHER 4.73%
Tobias Sjodin Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:28:00 - [28] Where are the sources here? Or is it just more baseless speculation? On the other hand, who would want to hire an Icelandic economist? XD HABIT
TedStriker The Scope	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:29:00 - [29] Originally by: fdfsadgfasdgvasdfasdfasd Uanid Why would a bank give a company another loan when they can't pay off their current one? Would a bank give a loan to someone on the dull? Because the loan includes interest? So, they did make the money, they just reinvested it. The problem here is "liquidity", not revenue or value. They could pay back the loan, if they liquidate, but thats not in the companies interest, and not in the banks interest as well (bank wants more interest payments). Refinancing is not the problem, just the conditions could be worse due to more risk and pressure, meaning they really need another loan to refinance and bank = greedy (ring a bell CCP?). Thats all. Only if EVE would tank now (lot of subs losses) the outcome of Dust-investment would be endangered. WoD is still off for a long time.
Darth Helmat	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:29:00 - [30] Originally by: fdfsadgfasdgvasdfasdfasd Uanid Originally by: Zombatar They can simply take a new loan, bigger this time, release DUST/WoD and then we are all happy, with extra monocles colours on the market in eve. Or they can fail like a noob. Anyway, CCP is risking all on DUST/WoD AFAIK, eve would be fine alone, actually pretty damn profitable $ 5-10 mil a year. If you don't risk u don't win. Well you do but not as much. :P Why would a bank give a company another loan when they can't pay off their current one? Would a bank give a loan to someone on the dull? Hell yes. The problem is the terms get worse. Ultimately you are owned by your creditors, who don't give a rats ass about eve.

cyclobs Minmatar	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:29:00 - [31] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Where are the sources here? Or is it just more baseless speculation? On the other hand, who would want to hire an Icelandic economist? XD sources are the CCP financial report
Crispin McTarmac	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:30:00 - [32] Originally by: Shadow XII Trying to take the income from one game to maintain it and make two others? What the **** were they thinking? Actually, it's more like 3 at least in terms of workload. Incarna is almost like a separate game in itself, and these are also mmos we're talking about so they're much more hefty than most other types of project
Graic Valente Gallente Valente Galactic Enterprises	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:30:00 - [33] Originally by: 7Boy Curry Sony buyout coming by default? I hate to say it but with that Insta-denial the other day coming out as the only response in this forum firestorm it can't be far from people's minds and CCP are obviously now blank scared of a public perception that EVE and CCP will just be more grist for the mill of a mega code chop-shop. Angry customers, stressed staff lashing out, debt levels rising and I would bet - nervous investors. Barely a recipe for success I would reckon.
Blane Xero Amarr The Firestorm Cartel	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:32:00 - [34] Relevant quotes: Quote: No, just a bunch of people ITT who can't read a financial statement or who are just trolling (hi Maz) As was said before, the Income Statement isn't where the information is. It's in the balance sheet, cash flow, and, as always, in the notes. So CCP raised $16.5M in equity over 2010. The shares were issued in 09 and CCP received the money from existing investors over the course of 2010. This is how they improved their cash position. The loan CCP took out is repayable on October 28, 2011 and is listed as Current maturities of non-current liabilities in the balance sheet with a value of $11.8M (see note 19, pg31). It was interest only until its maturity this October. CCP lists an operating profit $6.5M but this relies exclusively on the capitalization of in-process R&D. It is the most accurate and appropriate way to treat those expenses, but it can make it difficult for the inexperienced to understand what is going on with the company. CCP increased its development asset by $23.5M in 2010 and amortized $6.5M of its existing intangible assets. This shows as a net capitalization of $17M. In the cash flow statement you can see that net cash from operations is $17.3M vs cash charges for investment activities (development + other) of $25.9M. Raising net $16M only improved their cash position by $7.4M TLDR CCP is burning $8M a year in cash. They have to repay $11.8M this October which will wipe out their current cash balances. This leaves a rather large hole which can only be filled through further debt or equity instruments. CCP is making an accounting profit but is RAPIDLY running out of cash thanks to the cost of WoD and Dust. They are desperate for money and need MT to show investors/banks that their business is improving. They are also carrying a large amount of capitalized development that should really be written off, wiping out the "retained earnings" of the balance sheet. Add this to the list of things too: Quote: Quote: Hum, looks like they a have a real nice business going, why the hell do they need to burn it to the ground. Also, they acquired the Unreal license for dust in 2010 (http://www.ccpgames.com/en/public-relat ... t-514.aspx), shouldn't they have depreciated the in-house engine they binned? Yes, if they have not then it makes their position on the balance sheet a lot better than it really is. This is all from official documents, so most of it is cold facts supplied by CCP themselves. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
Zombatar	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:33:00 - [35] Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Where are the sources here? Or is it just more baseless speculation? On the other hand, who would want to hire an Icelandic economist? XD Start reading! (see note 19, pg 31)
Indy Rider Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:34:00 - [36] Originally by: Zombatar False. They had $ 11.223.672 cash at 31 Dec 2010. They spend about $ 8 Mil cash/year. By October 2011 they have to bring an extra 12 mil out of nowhere to pay the loan. You do the math. Might have to give it a reread... If it is 8 million good luck trying to get that much in that time... The guys over at the M&D haven't mentioned 8 mill...
Shadow XII	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:36:00 - [37] Originally by: Indy Rider Its 800k, not 8 million. EVE is still profitable, the problem is that WoD and Dust dev costs are going through the roof at the moment. The problem is, CCP have a loan of 12 million due in October they have to pay, of which they have 11.2. Once they pay that back they have no cash. Thats the problem, not bankruptcy. It also explains the 18 months of nothing, it was to cut costs. And as to why Incarna was rushed and buggy, get new subs along side MT so they can pay this loan back. Still. If they had told us the situation I'm sure we would have understood. Now they're in an even worse position than they were.
Falbala Gallente Ishtar's Destiny	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:36:00 - [38] Edited by: Falbala on 28/06/2011 00:38:01 They can buy PLEX with isk. 50,000 PLEX out of the market here are your 800k.
Eranicus II Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:37:00 - [39] DUST is actually a very good idea and it will get CCP some good profits at least for 5-6 months covering all the expanses. The main problem is that, I dont understand why CCP is bothering and spending money on fantasy MMORPG (World of darkness). Looking at the current market situation and all the future projects from industry giants, CCP has absolutely no chances on fantasy MMORPG market. And of course EVE suffers because of the present situation...
Josefine Etrange Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:40:00 - [40] Originally by: Eranicus II DUST is actually a very good idea and it will get CCP some good profits at least for 5-6 months covering all the expanses. The main problem is that, I dont understand why CCP is bothering and spending money on fantasy MMORPG (World of darkness). Looking at the current market situation and all the future projects from industry giants, CCP has absolutely no chances on fantasy MMORPG market. And of course EVE suffers because of the present situation... WoD is a strong RPG brand, whitewolf was cheap I guess, a lot of fans waiting to play WoD and their concept seems to be different from other mmorpgs. Plus they can use parts of the engine from dust and for eve. Still they are going to fast imo. Why a forum in the year 2011 still has no automatic double post merge which can be done even with javascript mostly is beyond my understanding.

Uuali	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:44:00 - [41] Originally by: Eranicus II DUST is actually a very good idea and it will get CCP some good profits at least for 5-6 months covering all the expanses. The main problem is that, I dont understand why CCP is bothering and spending money on fantasy MMORPG (World of darkness). Looking at the current market situation and all the future projects from industry giants, CCP has absolutely no chances on fantasy MMORPG market. And of course EVE suffers because of the present situation... I dunno. I'll bet the Twilighters would eat WoD if CCP markets it the right way. Of course they haven't really marketed EVE the right way. If they're wondering why they don't have enough subscribers one problem would be that they don't pump the advertising through enough channels. There's a number of times that I've thought how CCP could better advertise EVE. The bookstores, movie ads, action figures, music/ipod downloads free with ipod purchase etc etc. And best of all, not just a boxed version of the game like they have now but every two years release all the good stuff as a paid expansion with all the hoopla at the game shops that go with it! I'd pay $30 every two years for big stuff rather than have to pop $60 for every little item along the way.
Mister Dreyfus	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:46:00 - [42] Edited by: Mister Dreyfus on 28/06/2011 00:47:49 This financial report isn't as bad as it seems. 12m loan on 57 million/yr in revenue isn't that much. They can probably roll over a good chunk of the debt if not the entire thing. I wouldn't worry about it too much.
Tobias Sjodin Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:47:00 - [43] Originally by: Zombatar Originally by: Tobias Sjodin Where are the sources here? Or is it just more baseless speculation? On the other hand, who would want to hire an Icelandic economist? XD Start reading! (see note 19, pg 31) Headscratch. This is where my skills really are limited (economy analysis). But how do these figures affect 2011? Surely they have new income? v0v HABIT
nubile slave	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:48:00 - [44] Originally by: Eranicus II DUST is actually a very good idea and it will get CCP some good profits at least for 5-6 months covering all the expanses. The main problem is that, I dont understand why CCP is bothering and spending money on fantasy MMORPG (World of darkness). Looking at the current market situation and all the future projects from industry giants, CCP has absolutely no chances on fantasy MMORPG market. And of course EVE suffers because of the present situation... How is Dust going to show a profit in the first 5-6 months? It's a free game, it will have it's own distributed server farms to pay for. It's dependent on CCP selling a LOT of stuff, or selling it at an extremely high price....hmm, lol $49.95 for a gun?
Patient 2428190 DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:49:00 - [45] They can get another loan if they run out of cash reserves, by showing off projections on future properties and games. Increasing the revenue on EVE would lead to them to showing off even better projections on their future projects. Its not a dire situation, you are p1ssy little ****s and you want it to be dire situation. ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala.
Josh Bolder	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:49:00 - [46] I am a producer and very often sort out money for new films and completion. I have not seen this supposed finance document, but you all seem to be speculating on a cash flow forecast. Which may have many varying aspects, not to forget that the engines and code itself will be sold to other markets e.g. the quake engine or the Unreal Engine and many more. Also the company most likely have A class Shares and B class Shares for investors in each project, with each project also being supported by other projects and products. Plus the projects will also have completion bonds. The loan itself we already have a refinancing option built in. In other words none of you know what the F your talking about so for gods sake move on and concentrate on other issues.
RougeOperator	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:56:00 - [47] Originally by: Arias Dren LOVING how the CCP apologists and alts are staying FAR away from this topic right now. Speaks volumes. Sycophants will abandon ship when they perceive there is no gain from sucking up.
Ruze Ahkor'Murkon Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:57:00 - [48] Originally by: RougeOperator Originally by: Arias Dren LOVING how the CCP apologists and alts are staying FAR away from this topic right now. Speaks volumes. Sycophants will abandon ship when they perceive there is no gain from sucking up. I posted, and everyone tells me I'M an alt. Posts by Ruze Ahkor'Murkon and Ruze
Eranicus II Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.28 00:59:00 - [49] Originally by: Josefine Etrange Originally by: Eranicus II DUST is actually a very good idea and it will get CCP some good profits at least for 5-6 months covering all the expanses. The main problem is that, I dont understand why CCP is bothering and spending money on fantasy MMORPG (World of darkness). Looking at the current market situation and all the future projects from industry giants, CCP has absolutely no chances on fantasy MMORPG market. And of course EVE suffers because of the present situation... WoD is a strong RPG brand, whitewolf was cheap I guess, a lot of fans waiting to play WoD and their concept seems to be different from other mmorpgs. Plus they can use parts of the engine from dust and for eve. Still they are going to fast imo. You might be right but if we look back for example on AOC (Age of Conan) which also had some very strong story line, lots of fans and one of the best graphics engine (by the time of release) it was a fail in the end... Warhammer online is another example. There is one phrase in my country "If you will run after 2 rabbits, in the end you will catch none" My point is that CCP need to more focus on EVE
Tavin Aikisen Caldari Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:00:00 - [50] Hey look, I bet I can fix this in less than 5 minutes! Release DUST on XBox and PC as well as PS. Postpone WoD development until after DUST is released. Bring out way more vanity items and lower the prices across the board. Thank me later CCP. ---- ôRemember this. Trust your eyes, you will kill each other. Trust your veins, you can all go home in peace.ö -Cold Wind

Patient 2428190 DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:02:00 - [51] Edited by: Patient 2428190 on 28/06/2011 01:02:02 Originally by: Arias Dren LOVING how the CCP apologists and alts are staying FAR away from this topic right now. Speaks volumes. You are all idiots without the slightest clue of how a business works. Remember the rage and panic caused by the SoE buyout rumors (which clicking on the link for the "source" it just linked back itself) I've realized why CCP doesn't listen to the forums. You all don't have a ****ing clue. ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala.
Portmanteau Gallente CTRL-Q	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:02:00 - [52] Originally by: Eranicus II DUST is actually a very good idea and it will get CCP some good profits at least for 5-6 months covering all the expanses. The main problem is that, I dont understand why CCP is bothering and spending money on fantasy MMORPG (World of darkness). Looking at the current market situation and all the future projects from industry giants, CCP has absolutely no chances on fantasy MMORPG market. And of course EVE suffers because of the present situation... lol... since when is covering developments costs considered profit
Zakua Corbin	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:03:00 - [53] They must be somewhere past 100 monocles now...hell they are probably printing out profit share checks as we speak! I think they'll be fine. 8 mil on a buisness like this should roll.
Ruze Ahkor'Murkon Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:04:00 - [54] Originally by: Tavin Aikisen Hey look, I bet I can fix this in less than 5 minutes! Release DUST on XBox and PC as well as PS. Postpone WoD development until after DUST is released. Bring out way more vanity items and lower the prices across the board. Thank me later CCP. Microsoft won't allow Dust to communicate with EvE, which is why CCP and Microsoft couldn't come to an agreement (solo dust is not what CCP was after). And with a PS3 exclusive, why not let Sony pay for development costs and hold off on a PC release, thus allowing proper resources to be dedicated to the game? Posts by Ruze Ahkor'Murkon and Ruze
Patient 2428190 DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:05:00 - [55] Originally by: Tavin Aikisen Hey look, I bet I can fix this in less than 5 minutes! Release DUST on XBox and PC as well as PS. You can't release Dust for Xbox, Microsoft would not let them do it. Its not an option You can't release an FPS on a console and a PC at the same time and have players fighting on the same servers. The debate of mouse/controller and PC cheaters would absolutely ruin it. ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala.
Portmanteau Gallente CTRL-Q	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:05:00 - [56] Originally by: Josh Bolder I am a producer and very often sort out money for new films and completion. I have not seen this supposed finance document, but you all seem to be speculating on a cash flow forecast. Which may have many varying aspects, not to forget that the engines and code itself will be sold to other markets e.g. the quake engine or the Unreal Engine and many more. Also the company most likely have A class Shares and B class Shares for investors in each project, with each project also being supported by other projects and products. Plus the projects will also have completion bonds. The loan itself we already have a refinancing option built in. In other words none of you know what the F your talking about so for gods sake move on and concentrate on other issues. you mean Carbon ? The dodgy pile of crud that gets ****ty FPS and overheats GPUs.. who's going to buy that ?
Opertone Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:06:00 - [57] I suggest that monocle sees through clothes! and AUR buys erotic show in go go minmatar bars.
Black Dranzer Caldari	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:06:00 - [58] I'm not an economist and I don't understand finance at all, so my opinions are completely uneducated, but I find it hard to believe that it's as bad as some people are saying.
buck herrick SS-20	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:11:00 - [59] you guys seriously need to understand business finance and administration. many organisations like CCP carry debt. its usually cheaper than using cash on hand or refinancing and provides flexibility. however, fear not, CCP like many other organisations will be able to restructure their financial agreements - usually when this happens a company is able to save money not burn it or lose it. sorry to burst the bubble of doomÖ. restructuring their debt is probably already under agreement and right now i beleive their focus is firmly on their subscription revenue projections.
RougeOperator	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:13:00 - [60] Originally by: buck herrick you guys seriously need to understand business finance and administration. many organisations like CCP carry debt. its usually cheaper than using cash on hand or refinancing and provides flexibility. however, fear not, CCP like many other organisations will be able to restructure their financial agreements - usually when this happens a company is able to save money not burn it or lose it. sorry to burst the bubble of doomÖ. restructuring their debt is probably already under agreement and right now i beleive their focus is firmly on their subscription revenue projections. Yeah the spin factory by a guy with a quafe shirt is spinning up.

buck herrick SS-20	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:17:00 - [61] spin from a player that has already publicly un-subbed and posted my concerns / disapointment and rage in other posts? a brilliant masterstoke i must have pulled. aside from that, blatant panic posts like this have no place other than to induce panic in the uneducated. but please feel frrr to keep preaching the end of the world for CCP. matters not to me, i am more interested in facts.
Katra Novac	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:19:00 - [62] Originally by: Graic Valente nervous investors. More than likely, especially with the bad press and protests.
Jada Maroo	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:20:00 - [63] Their financial situation isn't as bad as it looks, for now. When Dust fails, though, CCP will get really scared. Then, watch out. All options on the table, Eve as you know it will be gone.
Mister Dreyfus	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:20:00 - [64] Originally by: buck herrick you guys seriously need to understand business finance and administration. many organisations like CCP carry debt. its usually cheaper than using cash on hand or refinancing and provides flexibility. however, fear not, CCP like many other organisations will be able to restructure their financial agreements - usually when this happens a company is able to save money not burn it or lose it. sorry to burst the bubble of doomÖ. restructuring their debt is probably already under agreement and right now i beleive their focus is firmly on their subscription revenue projections. I doubt they are restructuring their debt, but with credit as cheap as it is now they will probably roll it over, possibly borrowing additional funds to meet their cashflow needs. Tbqh, CCP is not doing bad financially. They are a little thin on cashflow at the moment but that's to be expected with 2 new products in development. As long as they roll Dust and WoD out within reasonable timeframes, they'll probably be fine.
buck herrick SS-20	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:21:00 - [65] Originally by: Mister Dreyfus Originally by: buck herrick you guys seriously need to understand business finance and administration. many organisations like CCP carry debt. its usually cheaper than using cash on hand or refinancing and provides flexibility. however, fear not, CCP like many other organisations will be able to restructure their financial agreements - usually when this happens a company is able to save money not burn it or lose it. sorry to burst the bubble of doomÖ. restructuring their debt is probably already under agreement and right now i beleive their focus is firmly on their subscription revenue projections. I doubt they are restructuring their debt, but with credit as cheap as it is now they will probably roll it over, possibly borrowing additional funds to meet their cashflow needs. Tbqh, CCP is not doing bad financially. They are a little thin on cashflow at the moment but that's to be expected with 2 new products in development. As long as they roll Dust and WoD out within reasonable timeframes, they'll probably be fine. agreed
Benilopax Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:23:00 - [66] If CCP were in financial trouble would they be planning to release Dust for a small cover charge? However the high prices for Vanity items could explain it. ----------------------------------- New Eden Chronicles: Prime, Coming soon.
Big Bad Guy	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:27:00 - [67] I think there's at least one thing that everyone can agree on - EVE by itself IS PROFITABLE for CCP. Vanity items or not, they could at least do something for the game that was actually requested years ago. Just for example: EVE still has no official killboard! Feature that been asked billion times. Not saying about numerous problems that exist in the game since dawn of times... New shop just got people to the boiling point, but it's not the main problem with EVE.
Mister Poopypants	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:33:00 - [68] CCP fail, "because of monocleÖ"?
gdjghjhgjfh Brutor Tribe	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:45:00 - [69] Originally by: Zombatar Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 00:27:57 Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 00:26:22 Originally by: Indy Rider Its 800k, not 8 million. EVE is still profitable, the problem is that WoD and Dust dev costs are going through the roof at the moment. The problem is, CCP have a loan of 12 million due in October they have to pay, of which they have 11.2. Once they pay that back they have no cash. Thats the problem, not bankruptcy. It also explains the 18 months of nothing, it was to cut costs. And as to why Incarna was rushed and buggy, get new subs along side MT so they can pay this loan back. False. They had $ 11.223.672 cash at 31 Dec 2010. They spend about $ 8 Mil cash/year. By October 2011 they have to bring an extra 12 mil out of nowhere to pay the loan. You do the math. Originally by: fdfsadgfasdgvasdfasdfasd Uanid Originally by: Zombatar They can simply take a new loan, bigger this time, release DUST/WoD and then we are all happy, with extra monocles colours on the market in eve. Or they can fail like a noob. Anyway, CCP is risking all on DUST/WoD AFAIK, eve would be fine alone, actually pretty damn profitable $ 5-10 mil a year. If you don't risk u don't win. Well you do but not as much. :P Why would a bank give a company another loan when they can't pay off their current one? Would a bank give a loan to someone on the dull? This happens all time mate. Banks give u cash, so at the end they take double back. And they will give CCP loans, u know why? Because CCP has assets worth $ 20+ Mil, so if they can't pay CCP defaults and the bank takes that and sells it. 11.223.672 at end of 2010 <--yes, i said that in another thread. but what all of you are missing the the 50 mil earned by eve subs, they could easily pay back a loan by restricting their salaries/company benefits if it came down to that. As for the 11mil surplus they had last year, you have to consider that is what they have after all the dev and research for the other games. What I got from the document was not bankruptcy but a stable company.
Noran Ferah Red Sky Morning	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:46:00 - [70] I love all the incredible moguls of business chiming in here. Ludicrous. Of course the banks will never refinance a loan, will they? And there is no possible way that the shareholders of CCP would ever perform a cash infusion if necessary, eh? Nevar! pffft... Explains everything indeed.

Portmanteau Gallente CTRL-Q	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:50:00 - [71] Originally by: Noran Ferah I love all the incredible moguls of business chiming in here. Ludicrous. Of course the banks will never refinance a loan, will they? And there is no possible way that the shareholders of CCP would ever perform a cash infusion if necessary, eh? Nevar! pffft... Explains everything indeed. IIRC correctly sm1 spotted that the investors had already been milked quite recently... somewhere in the sister thread in MD
Mr Kidd	Posted - 2011.06.28 01:52:00 - [72] Edited by: Mr Kidd on 28/06/2011 01:53:26 Dear CCP, Due to recent uncertainty brought to light by your own customer base, I can no longer play your game. The years required to navigate your time sinks before one can do anything really interesting in the game seems like a longer commitment than you have life. Sincerely, Mr. Kidd Joking of course but, it's not far from the truth. Still unsubbed here pending outcome of CSM meeting.
Eleena Wolf Caldari Unknown Soldiers B O R G	Posted - 2011.06.28 02:06:00 - [73] Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 28/06/2011 02:06:40 Originally by: alexreborn if CCP goes bankrupt at least some **ty company like EA or Ubisoft or Blizzard might pick it up. EA might be a *, but at least they know how to sell the ** out of their titles. I predict turn around to profitablility in 3 months. Monocoles on every player, and SP for USD!!. EA bought dark age of camelot (mythic entertainment) when it was competeting and agains everquest. daoc players thought ea would fix daoc because ea wanted to make money, what they didnt realize is that ea made more money by not fixing a damn thing. they milked daoc for all it was worth to fund other ea developed games, while at the same time making their own mmos more profitable by removing a competitor title. While a competeting game developer buying out another competeting game developer does not happen often, when it does the buying party stands to make more profit by either not fixing the problems of game they just bought out or removing it from scene entirely.
Maman Brigitte Licentia Ex Vereor Intergalactic Exports Group	Posted - 2011.06.28 02:16:00 - [74] Originally by: Eleena Wolf Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 28/06/2011 02:06:40 Originally by: alexreborn if CCP goes bankrupt at least some **ty company like EA or Ubisoft or Blizzard might pick it up. EA might be a *, but at least they know how to sell the ** out of their titles. I predict turn around to profitablility in 3 months. Monocoles on every player, and SP for USD!!. EA bought dark age of camelot (mythic entertainment) when it was competeting and agains everquest. daoc players thought ea would fix daoc because ea wanted to make money, what they didnt realize is that ea made more money by not fixing a damn thing. they milked daoc for all it was worth to fund other ea developed games, while at the same time making their own mmos more profitable by removing a competitor title. While a competeting game developer buying out another competeting game developer does not happen often, when it does the buying party stands to make more profit by either not fixing the problems of game they just bought out or removing it from scene entirely. That's less true now than it was then. Back then, customers leaving DAOC had very few other places to go. Now, the market is saturated. Driving customers away from a title you own is not generally a good idea now, since that is likely to leave them with a bad taste for you specifically, thus actually reducing the chance of them falling into the arms of another of your titles. Still, the point is well noted.
Dobbs Head EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.28 02:17:00 - [75] Edited by: Dobbs Head on 28/06/2011 02:17:06 Originally by: Zombatar Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 00:35:17 Edited by: Zombatar on 27/06/2011 23:37:08 Quote: But again, CCP had $11M in cash Jan 1 2011. They are burning about $8M a year and will have about $4M left by the time their $11.8M dollar loan is due October 28th. This explains EVERYTHING. Start reading! (see note 19, pg 31) New ways to make money in EvE will help when doing negotiation with the banks for a new loan. Thank you. Not one of you has a complete picture of CCP finances or their financial options. I would caution you against moving from nerd rage into libel. There are real world consequences for causing damage to a company by spreading false information regarding financial viability. You can't possibly have the kind of information required to make any sort of public claims about CCP's financial viability. I don't care what "documents" you link. You don't have access to the internal information that you would need to make the kind of proclamation that you are making. Be careful.
Eleena Wolf Caldari Unknown Soldiers B O R G	Posted - 2011.06.28 02:29:00 - [76] Originally by: Maman Brigitte Originally by: Eleena Wolf Edited by: Eleena Wolf on 28/06/2011 02:06:40 Originally by: alexreborn if CCP goes bankrupt at least some **ty company like EA or Ubisoft or Blizzard might pick it up. EA might be a *, but at least they know how to sell the ** out of their titles. I predict turn around to profitablility in 3 months. Monocoles on every player, and SP for USD!!. EA bought dark age of camelot (mythic entertainment) when it was competeting and agains everquest. daoc players thought ea would fix daoc because ea wanted to make money, what they didnt realize is that ea made more money by not fixing a damn thing. they milked daoc for all it was worth to fund other ea developed games, while at the same time making their own mmos more profitable by removing a competitor title. While a competeting game developer buying out another competeting game developer does not happen often, when it does the buying party stands to make more profit by either not fixing the problems of game they just bought out or removing it from scene entirely. That's less true now than it was then. Back then, customers leaving DAOC had very few other places to go. Now, the market is saturated. Driving customers away from a title you own is not generally a good idea now, since that is likely to leave them with a bad taste for you specifically, thus actually reducing the chance of them falling into the arms of another of your titles. Still, the point is well noted. debatable. Ea not only did this DAOC, they continued this sort of thing with warhammer online. However I believe they intended simply to milk as much profit as they could from sub par mmorpgs because it didnt cost them all that much to develop halfassed code and put it on the market. they relied on ads and names, in the case of warhammer online, gamesworkshop the profit they get from these mmorpg titles is for the most part funneled directly in the areas of the game industry they were already succesful with and are still successful with; shooters, rts, and sports related games. essentially companies like ea already have an established niche, when they need money they go destroy an mmorpg from a dying rival.
Jeff Severasse	Posted - 2011.06.28 03:23:00 - [77] If I am reading this statement correctly according to page 31 on October 28th, 2011 a loan of 11.6mil USD (1.35bil ISK) will be due with interest (so letÆs use 12mil USD to make math easy). According to the statement of cash flows on page 7, of the same document, the company held almost 12mil USD on hand at the end of fiscal year 2010 with a yearend gain of 7.4mil USD. This gain was because of Q1 2010 where 9.9mil USD was realized due to a share offering, page 36 under credit risk management (section 25.7). This number is also reflected on the statement of cash flows, again page 7 under net increase in share capital, with the difference of 6.6mil USD being realized in Q3 2010. This raises an alarm in my brain (as crazy as my mind may be) because in the statement of cash flows, CCP increased cash by 7.4mil USD only after the realization of 16.6mil USD implying without the offering of share capital CCP actually decreased cash assets by 9.2mil USD. This implies that without the offerings, CCP would have run out of cash around Q2 2010. With these numbers, assuming 2011 is similar to 2010, CCP is hemorrhaging approx. 750K USD or 6% of their cash monthly. With these projections it can be estimated that by October 28th, 2011 CCP may in fact only have about 4.5mil USD on hand by the time the loan comes due (12mil û 750K*10). So with my research and knowledge (minor in accounting so my knowledge is limited) I confirm CCP could be facing some serious cash flow issues. Final note of interest, I find it bizarre that CCP paid 23mil USD in CASH on their development and yet they claim only 11mil USD in R&D on their income statement. Makes you wonder what they spent that cash on. (Oh wait, itÆs because they are reporting the development as an asset and they are using cash to fund itàherp a derpàsee the balance sheet on page 6 and follow the development costs through the statement of cash flows and note section 12 on page 24/25.)
Sloppy Podfarts	Posted - 2011.06.28 03:30:00 - [78] Originally by: Arias Dren LOVING how the CCP apologists and alts are staying FAR away from this topic right now. Speaks volumes. HOT POTATO
scepternine Gallente Malavita	Posted - 2011.06.28 03:33:00 - [79] Originally by: Sloppy Podfarts Originally by: Arias Dren LOVING how the CCP apologists and alts are staying FAR away from this topic right now. Speaks volumes. HOT POTATO Yeah, anyone with a couple of minutes of basic economy studies would avoid this joke of a thread for risk of being irreversibly contaminated by the wagon-loads of stupid.
Maman Brigitte Licentia Ex Vereor Intergalactic Exports Group	Posted - 2011.06.28 05:37:00 - [80] Originally by: scepternine Originally by: Sloppy Podfarts Originally by: Arias Dren LOVING how the CCP apologists and alts are staying FAR away from this topic right now. Speaks volumes. HOT POTATO Yeah, anyone with a couple of minutes of basic economy studies would avoid this joke of a thread for risk of being irreversibly contaminated by the wagon-loads of stupid. So from your presence here, we can derive either irony or idiocy, as we choose?

Jita Monitor	Posted - 2011.06.28 05:43:00 - [81] CCP has all the money they will ever need right now. Your attempt to tarnish CCP's good name is petty, at best. You are as PRESUMPTUOUS as your are POOR AND IRISH.
52 MonocIes 52 Monocles	Posted - 2011.06.28 05:46:00 - [82] Thats kinda true, seem from the annual report that they need cash desperately. What are we willing to buy from them to help them out? Check this thread. -- I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Threadnaughts on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
Khamelean	Posted - 2011.06.28 05:48:00 - [83] Originally by: Zombatar Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 00:35:17 Edited by: Zombatar on 27/06/2011 23:37:08 Quote: But again, CCP had $11M in cash Jan 1 2011. They are burning about $8M a year and will have about $4M left by the time their $11.8M dollar loan is due October 28th. This explains EVERYTHING. Start reading! (see note 19, pg 31) New ways to make money in EvE will help when doing negotiation with the banks for a new loan. Thank you. You really think their plan to fix this situation is to sell $60 monocles to 100 people? If CCP was was planing to solve their alleged cash flow troubles with the nex store, then it would look very different that it does now. As it stand the nex store is far from the cash cow people seem to claim it is.
Anna Maziarczyk	Posted - 2011.06.28 06:00:00 - [84] Originally by: Zombatar Originally by: ACY GTMI Edited by: ACY GTMI on 27/06/2011 23:37:47 Are you suggesting that is our fault? Edit: Forgot one of my favorite mottoes. "Never encourage failure." I blame $ 20+ Mil spent on WoD and Dust... That is the issue. You can't have one game (EvE) pay 700 wages, finance 2 game developments then have money left to re-invest in EvE. We are basically paying with our EVE sub for WoD and Dust, I could be ok with that, if EvE wouldn't suffer. This is not the case though. EVE is being milked to the last drop. Why? Because CCP was TOO ambitious. Too much for EvE it seems... i r agree with the you.
Anna Maziarczyk	Posted - 2011.06.28 06:02:00 - [85] Could you imagine Iceland man ego under the harness of say SOE or Major Corp Director? Serious. They know the situation they are in, and they know what it means. I don't know if the financial issues are even real/accurate. But if they are, it may spell doom for EVE as a whole. Not just MT, but no EVE at all. I really cant see these devs being subservient to oversight from some other corp.
Valei Khurelem	Posted - 2011.06.28 06:02:00 - [86] I'm sorry, but how the ** does a relatively small games company like CCP blow 8 million on running one game and developing two others? Math does not compute. Unless of course they've been **ing it away on parties which is the more likely thing.
Skex Relbore Gallente Red Federation RvB - RED Federation	Posted - 2011.06.28 06:04:00 - [87] Originally by: Khamelean Originally by: Zombatar Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 00:35:17 Edited by: Zombatar on 27/06/2011 23:37:08 Quote: But again, CCP had $11M in cash Jan 1 2011. They are burning about $8M a year and will have about $4M left by the time their $11.8M dollar loan is due October 28th. This explains EVERYTHING. Start reading! (see note 19, pg 31) New ways to make money in EvE will help when doing negotiation with the banks for a new loan. Thank you. You really think their plan to fix this situation is to sell $60 monocles to 100 people? If CCP was was planing to solve their alleged cash flow troubles with the nex store, then it would look very different that it does now. As it stand the nex store is far from the cash cow people seem to claim it is. Actually I think that's a large part of peoples concern. The Cash store as it stands now is not a good implementation of the MT model the prices are a joke. But it does put the mechanic in the game which opens up the possibility of the real MT money maker of performance enhancers. things like accelerated skill training character remaps outright SP purchases or faction adjustments. Things that frankly are game changers but are required to really make the MT model work. I honestly think people would be a bit less concerned if the NEX had come out with some reasonable priced items as it is the existing price structure made people go "huh?" then combine that with the Fearless leak and well....
Monstress	Posted - 2011.06.28 06:10:00 - [88] I would be curious to know if CCP had received any large investments from Sony this year that would not yet have been reported on their financial statements.
Troy LS	Posted - 2011.06.28 06:17:00 - [89] Originally by: fdfsadgfasdgvasdfasdfasd Uanid Why would a bank give a company another loan when they can't pay off their current one? Would a bank give a loan to someone on the dull? Where do you think Icelands financial problems started?
Anna Maziarczyk	Posted - 2011.06.28 06:18:00 - [90] Originally by: Valei Khurelem I'm sorry, but how the ** does a relatively small games company like CCP blow 8 million on running one game and developing two others? Math does not compute. Unless of course they've been **ing it away on parties which is the more likely thing. $1000 Jeans and Chess Boxing.

Spacing Cowboy Caldari Rule of Five Split Infinity.	Posted - 2011.06.28 06:19:00 - [91] Im no math wizzard or kind of pushed to do it anyway atm what if ccp would allow to train , 2 caracters ( or 3 ) on 1 account for a reduced price.. Say, 1 plex a month for your first one main , 1/2 a plex for a 2e and even 3e to train at the same time. - would this break the caracter reselling vallue ( make people go nuts, burn the devs at the stake - would this, or ... how much, would be needed to screw the whole aurum crap and let the debt be payed off like this in -record- time
Namura Kautsuo	Posted - 2011.06.28 06:20:00 - [92] Pics or it didn't happen.
Tippia Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.28 06:22:00 - [93] Originally by: Josh Bolder I have not seen this supposed finance document, but you all seem to be speculating on a cash flow forecast. Which may have many varying aspects, not to forget that the engines and code itself will be sold to other markets e.g. the quake engine or the Unreal Engine and many more. Carbon is not being licensed out to other developers beyond being (essentially) a CCP franchise to get their games into markets that CCP themselves can't/won't cover. ùùù ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö ù ÇÇP
Mr Jebidea	Posted - 2011.06.28 06:23:00 - [94] Originally by: Noran Ferah I love all the incredible moguls of business chiming in here. Ludicrous. Of course the banks will never refinance a loan, will they? And there is no possible way that the shareholders of CCP would ever perform a cash infusion if necessary, eh? Nevar! pffft... Explains everything indeed. Agreed, I like how people who know nothing of market incentives assume that investors jump ship the second companies dip into the red and that banks are big bad demons that never budge their money grubbing fingers. People need yo get a grip, capitalism isn't at all like they taught in public school.
Heathyy	Posted - 2011.06.28 06:32:00 - [95] quick sell the Yachts!
Valei Khurelem	Posted - 2011.06.28 06:38:00 - [96] Edited by: Valei Khurelem on 28/06/2011 06:38:11 Originally by: Anna Maziarczyk Originally by: Valei Khurelem I'm sorry, but how the ** does a relatively small games company like CCP blow 8 million on running one game and developing two others? Math does not compute. Unless of course they've been ing it away on parties which is the more likely thing. $1000 Jeans and Chess Boxing. lol oh I bloody hope not :D That may explain the ****ed comparison that the deb gave on that blog.
CCFAIL	Posted - 2011.06.28 06:41:00 - [97] Well the financial report is quite clear, but where did you guys get that that loan of 2009 is due in october? I couldn't find that information yet.
Tippia Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.28 06:51:00 - [98] Originally by: CCFAIL Well the financial report is quite clear, but where did you guys get that that loan of 2009 is due in october? I couldn't find that information yet. Page 31, point 19.1.(i). ùùù ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö ù ÇÇP
Uglavitch Nefrex Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2011.06.28 07:09:00 - [99] Edited by: Uglavitch Nefrex on 28/06/2011 07:10:23 Speculation. I dunno, Is EvE in financial difficulty's?, possibly. A company as small and fragile as CCP should of never overstretched itself to manage one game and produce two new games at the same time. The problem they have is after burning through $25m they are still left without their new games and subsequently are looking at their "Only" product to to increase the funding of their new projects. Which is fine, CCP isn't a democracy they can spend their profits on whatever they want, but when you mess with the winning formula of their only product, they are going to get themselves into real troubles. The CSM meeting shall be very interesting if we actually get told what is going on.
PepperPotts	Posted - 2011.06.28 07:10:00 - [100] I guess we should all just cancel our accounts now, since the game will not exist in October anyway.. I just did, will you?

Digital Messiah Oregami Ultd	Posted - 2011.06.28 07:18:00 - [101] Eve has had a fairly steady subscription increase over it's 8 year life span. eight years... One would consider that a company going for that long while making a profit might have its debts and bills in order? Also why is WOD and Dust being paid for right now. It would make more sense to assume they are on separate loans or being paid in part with savings accumulated over the years. As a game developer doesn't assume it will only make one product. This whole thread only feeds the "i quit" trolls. And I see no constructive value by talking about it, without definitive proof to back it up. My signature is extended to all those who are quitting. Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2011.06.28 07:21:00 - [102] Originally by: Zombatar Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 00:27:57 Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 00:26:22 Originally by: Indy Rider Its 800k, not 8 million. EVE is still profitable, the problem is that WoD and Dust dev costs are going through the roof at the moment. The problem is, CCP have a loan of 12 million due in October they have to pay, of which they have 11.2. Once they pay that back they have no cash. Thats the problem, not bankruptcy. It also explains the 18 months of nothing, it was to cut costs. And as to why Incarna was rushed and buggy, get new subs along side MT so they can pay this loan back. False. They had $ 11.223.672 cash at 31 Dec 2010. They spend about $ 8 Mil cash/year. By October 2011 they have to bring an extra 12 mil out of nowhere to pay the loan. You do the math. I've done the maths, and it looks fine to me, since I took into account the fact that CCP has an income of around $4.5M a month. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Scott Ryder Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2011.06.28 07:22:00 - [103] 8 mill, thats like 8000 pants!
Smagd Encina Technologies Namtz' aar K'in	Posted - 2011.06.28 07:25:00 - [104] Nice FUD thread there: "MT ARE GOOD OTHERWISE THE GAME ENDS!" Well, for me, if it goes MT it already HAS ended.
Steve Thomas Minmatar Sebiestor Tribe	Posted - 2011.06.28 07:25:00 - [105] Originally by: Shadow XII Originally by: Arias Dren LOVING how the CCP apologists and alts are staying FAR away from this topic right now. Speaks volumes. You can't argue with cold hard fact, and the fact is CCP has dug themselves into a pit with their own over-ambitious bull**. Trying to take the income from one game to maintain it and make two others? What the ** were they thinking? that if they could make EVE with about 20 people originaly (actualy less than that) then surely they could do 3 games with 30 times the staff.... Bascialy I think part of it was "Well we want to do Walking in stations, we want to create a new system for it as well. . . why not make two diferent games with the same Egnine! lets face it, making a second game(WOD) is actualy more of a plan B for CARBON. .End of line. If your too paranoid to play EvE. . . ...then your not paranoid enough to play EvE ----------------
RougeOperator	Posted - 2011.06.28 07:26:00 - [106] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Zombatar Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 00:27:57 Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 00:26:22 Originally by: Indy Rider Its 800k, not 8 million. EVE is still profitable, the problem is that WoD and Dust dev costs are going through the roof at the moment. The problem is, CCP have a loan of 12 million due in October they have to pay, of which they have 11.2. Once they pay that back they have no cash. Thats the problem, not bankruptcy. It also explains the 18 months of nothing, it was to cut costs. And as to why Incarna was rushed and buggy, get new subs along side MT so they can pay this loan back. False. They had $ 11.223.672 cash at 31 Dec 2010. They spend about $ 8 Mil cash/year. By October 2011 they have to bring an extra 12 mil out of nowhere to pay the loan. You do the math. I've done the maths, and it looks fine to me, since I took into account the fact that CCP has an income of around $4.5M a month. But are still losing money each month. The overhead is eating them alive. The are not taking in as enough to pay the bills.
CCFAIL	Posted - 2011.06.28 07:54:00 - [107] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: CCFAIL Well the financial report is quite clear, but where did you guys get that that loan of 2009 is due in october? I couldn't find that information yet. Page 31, point 19.1.(i). thx, must have missed that one
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island	Posted - 2011.06.28 07:56:00 - [108] Originally by: RougeOperator Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: Zombatar Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 00:27:57 Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 00:26:22 Originally by: Indy Rider Its 800k, not 8 million. EVE is still profitable, the problem is that WoD and Dust dev costs are going through the roof at the moment. The problem is, CCP have a loan of 12 million due in October they have to pay, of which they have 11.2. Once they pay that back they have no cash. Thats the problem, not bankruptcy. It also explains the 18 months of nothing, it was to cut costs. And as to why Incarna was rushed and buggy, get new subs along side MT so they can pay this loan back. False. They had $ 11.223.672 cash at 31 Dec 2010. They spend about $ 8 Mil cash/year. By October 2011 they have to bring an extra 12 mil out of nowhere to pay the loan. You do the math. I've done the maths, and it looks fine to me, since I took into account the fact that CCP has an income of around $4.5M a month. But are still losing money each month. The overhead is eating them alive. The are not taking in as enough to pay the bills. The maths, he's done them
Zombatar	Posted - 2011.06.28 09:05:00 - [109] Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 09:07:25 Guys the financial statement is a public document, anyone can get it. It's not like a leak or something you can get banned for. CCP will certainly receive extra funding, however at what cost and price? EVE makes over 50 mil a year gross profit. After all expenses the company still makes 5-6 mil profit/year. But this is clearly not enough to pay a 12 $ mil loan during a high season with so many expenses like 2 game developments. I'm afraid CCP does not have such liquidity and thus will need to find additional resources to finance its development. We only have data up to the end of 2010, so 2011 might bring some interesting surprises, however what is happening in EVE is connected to the above. Making EvE bring more money is only natural, considering that DUST's whole strategy is to make money by selling better guns, so you see, better ships in EVE is not a far fetched idea. So how is this relevant? Well what is happening now in EvE and in general at CCP is that first they need some serious quick money to pay their loans and second they want to boost their income with eve by selling crap vanity items and later ubber ships for rl $. This will improve their metrics and maybe increase the profit margins until CCP releases DUST and WoD, making new loans easier to take. Problem is that if CCP new games will fail, well, they will have some serious damage control to do. As I see it CCP will take some new loans, bigger this time and when they are due, if they wont sell those games nicely they are in **** situation. This ofc is only speculation, but I can't help it to see how CCP's development is motivated by greed and money. It's no longer about EVE, but how to make more money and sell more stuff (vanity items, new games, etc.). The company has no more connection to the games. It's 100% business from here on. Is that bad? Well atm for EVE this is very bad IMO. Resources are spent on DUST and WOG instead of EVE, plus EVE gets trashed with expansions that sell clothes, so you see our space game just got trolled. Make ur own judgement, u got enough info here.
Nobile Sheeraan Among the Shadows	Posted - 2011.06.28 10:38:00 - [110] Guys. If you really like this game then just keep playing it, stop giving CCP grief, and invite friends to give it a go. What do any of you actually think you'll achieve by whining and *****ing? Let them do their thing, they're one of the most successful MMO companies in existence.

irion felpamy Minmatar Assisted Genocide Unprovoked Aggression	Posted - 2011.06.28 11:16:00 - [111] Originally by: Nobile Sheeraan If you really like this game then just keep playing it, stop giving CCP grief, and invite friends to give it a go. I don't throw good money after bad, if this game is going **** up with pay to win and/or eve getting sold off to cover Dust/WoD development costs I want out now not later. I like driving my car but I don't invite my friends to jump into it if I think I'm about to crash.
Harland White	Posted - 2011.06.28 11:28:00 - [112] Originally by: Zombatar Originally by: ACY GTMI Edited by: ACY GTMI on 27/06/2011 23:37:47 Are you suggesting that is our fault? Edit: Forgot one of my favorite mottoes. "Never encourage failure." I blame $ 20+ Mil spent on WoD and Dust... That is the issue. You can't have one game (EvE) pay 700 wages, finance 2 game developments then have money left to re-invest in EvE. We are basically paying with our EVE sub for WoD and Dust, I could be ok with that, if EvE wouldn't suffer. This is not the case though. EVE is being milked to the last drop. Why? Because CCP was TOO ambitious. Too much for EvE it seems... This, this, this.
Simanti	Posted - 2011.06.28 11:37:00 - [113] Wow - I have to say CCP have done some things to wind people up recently - but clearly very few people here have any idea of how a company works, software companies in particular! CCP MAY need to look at how they manage their cash flow and beef up their risk analysis - but they are not doomed.
Boaz Hedion Merkava	Posted - 2011.06.28 11:42:00 - [114] Originally by: Simanti Wow - I have to say CCP have done some things to wind people up recently - but clearly very few people here have any idea of how a company works, software companies in particular! CCP MAY need to look at how they manage their cash flow and beef up their risk analysis - but they are not doomed. Nice statement. Please back it up. With facts.
Lederstrumpf	Posted - 2011.06.28 11:44:00 - [115] Originally by: Righteous Deeds The epic nature of the PR failure is one of the most fascinating parts of this whole thing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A88B8L6_75s
Vincentus	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:26:00 - [116] Edited by: Vincentus on 28/06/2011 12:30:04 Originally by: Zombatar Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 09:07:25 Guys the financial statement is a public document, anyone can get it. It's not like a leak or something you can get banned for. CCP will certainly receive extra funding, however at what cost and price? EVE makes over 50 mil a year gross profit. After all expenses the company still makes 5-6 mil profit/year. But this is clearly not enough to pay a 12 $ mil loan during a high season with so many expenses like 2 game developments. I'm afraid CCP does not have such liquidity and thus will need to find additional resources to finance its development. We only have data up to the end of 2010, so 2011 might bring some interesting surprises, however what is happening in EVE is connected to the above. Making EvE bring more money is only natural, considering that DUST's whole strategy is to make money by selling better guns, so you see, better ships in EVE is not a far fetched idea. So how is this relevant? Well what is happening now in EvE and in general at CCP is that first they need some serious quick money to pay their loans and second they want to boost their income with eve by selling crap vanity items and later ubber ships for rl $. This will improve their metrics and maybe increase the profit margins until CCP releases DUST and WoD, making new loans easier to take. Problem is that if CCP new games will fail, well, they will have some serious damage control to do. As I see it CCP will take some new loans, bigger this time and when they are due, if they wont sell those games nicely they are in **** situation. This ofc is only speculation, but I can't help it to see how CCP's development is motivated by greed and money. It's no longer about EVE, but how to make more money and sell more stuff (vanity items, new games, etc.). The company has no more connection to the games. It's 100% business from here on. Is that bad? Well atm for EVE this is very bad IMO. Resources are spent on DUST and WOG instead of EVE, plus EVE gets trashed with expansions that sell clothes, so you see our space game just got trolled. Make ur own judgement, u got enough info here. Ehm no. They have a revenue of 55M a year, but the only reason they are reporting a EBITDA profit is because of some nice accouting gimmicks (totally legal btw). They are actually making a net loss in their cash flow of 8M+ a year because of development costs. Since they had 11M at year end 2010 (which they only had because they made their investors pay 16M, which they were obliged to do by law, otherwise they would have a negative cash balance of 5M, e.a. bankrupt if noone else wants to pay), if they haven't received additional cash in the meantime and since they have hired a bunch of extra staff last year, they probably have around 7.5M left as we speak, and will only have left 4M at the end of October, which is when they need to pay back a loan of 11M+. So that's already a shortage of cash of 7M+. What CCP is hoping is that Dust will be a big success which will solve all their problems, and this is of course also what they are telling investors and their banks. But since noone has any real idea of how succesfull Dust is going to be (it could be a new cash cow, but it could just as easily be a big fail), they are basically telling their investors and bankers: Hey look, we made a nice pwetty roulette game, and we want you to collectively put around 20M on black and we will all get :rich:! Of course, they need lots of pwetty charts and pies to convince them to do so, and I'm gonna leave it up to you to figure out where they are going to base those pies on
Elienore	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:38:00 - [117] Edited by: Elienore on 28/06/2011 12:39:00 Originally by: Arias Dren LOVING how the CCP apologists and alts are staying FAR away from this topic right now. Speaks volumes. I just logged on and whatnot :l Would indeed be a shame if they went bankrupt (someone already mentioned it wouldn't be a bankruptcy and more akin to draining all blood from a body). EDIT: In some sort of extreme magic trick, I have failed to notice the 3 other pages... starts reading better now.
Leah Solo	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:43:00 - [118] Originally by: Nobile Sheeraan Guys. stop giving CCP grief, and invite friends to give it a go. So you can grief my newb friends ingame too? ccc..griefers will be griefers
Haven Wind	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:47:00 - [119] CCP do not have to get a loan, they could issue more stock, sell treasury stock, issue preferred stock, break open the piggy bank and dip into retained earnings, etc. They could issue corporate bonds as a debt instrument instead of a bank loan, or perhaps they have some assets they could sell off. Perhaps licensing Carbon? There are many ways to raise capital.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:49:00 - [120] That is only 213 trillion isk. They could easily spawn that money and buy PLEX after PLEX from the market

Harkonen Xaves	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:51:00 - [121] When EvE drops to a "reasonable" margin of purchase I'm going to cash in my Tesco points and take over, muahahahaha!!!!
Vincentus	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:52:00 - [122] Edited by: Vincentus on 28/06/2011 12:55:13 Edited by: Vincentus on 28/06/2011 12:52:18 Originally by: Haven Wind CCP do not have to get a loan, they could issue more stock, sell treasury stock, issue preferred stock, break open the piggy bank and dip into retained earnings, etc. They could issue corporate bonds as a debt instrument instead of a bank loan, or perhaps they have some assets they could sell off. Perhaps licensing Carbon? There are many ways to raise capital. It doesn't matter how they plan on raising it, they will need to convince someone somehow that Dust is going to be amazing and that Eve is going to be an even greater cash cow than it already is. No one in their right mind is going to cough up 20M+ without any reasonable assurance they are going to get it back, and with a big bonus on top of that for the risk they are going to have to take. edit: oh and there is no more treasure stock, no piggy bank, and retained earnings do not generate cash, so those are of the list anyway.
Lrd Spike	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:53:00 - [123] listen DUST514 is going to be cross platform based game.. it is going to HUGE mungus! so i again.. am not so worried and sources please! i want PROOF or it didnt happen!
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:54:00 - [124] You also forgot that the Sony PS3-exclusive deal probably flushed in a lot of fresh $$$.
Raven Aldura	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:57:00 - [125] Originally by: Vincentus Edited by: Vincentus on 28/06/2011 12:52:18 Originally by: Haven Wind CCP do not have to get a loan, they could issue more stock, sell treasury stock, issue preferred stock, break open the piggy bank and dip into retained earnings, etc. They could issue corporate bonds as a debt instrument instead of a bank loan, or perhaps they have some assets they could sell off. Perhaps licensing Carbon? There are many ways to raise capital. It doesn't matter how they plan on raising it, they will need to convince someone somehow that Dust is going to be amazing and that Eve is going to be an even greater cash cow than it already is. No one in their right mind is going to cough up 20M+ without any reasonable assurance they are going to get it back, and with a big bonus on top of that for the risk they are going to have to take. They have 19 million in retained earnings they could dip into, and this is a great time for issuing bonds. There are a lot of investors who enjoy risk. (though I don't think of CCP as particularly risky given these financials.)
Vincentus	Posted - 2011.06.28 12:59:00 - [126] Originally by: Gnulpie You also forgot that the Sony PS3-exclusive deal probably flushed in a lot of fresh $$$. That could very well be (one of the ifs posted earlier), but we have no way of knowing that until June next year unfortunately (unless CCP is kind enough of tell us. Please? ). This would lighten their load considerably of course, at least for the short term.
das licht Gallente Echtzeit AG	Posted - 2011.06.28 13:00:00 - [127] What's WoD?
Snake Scofield	Posted - 2011.06.28 13:02:00 - [128] OP knows what he's talking about, except how to spell bankruptcy.
Vincentus	Posted - 2011.06.28 13:02:00 - [129] Originally by: Raven Aldura Originally by: Vincentus Edited by: Vincentus on 28/06/2011 12:52:18 Originally by: Haven Wind CCP do not have to get a loan, they could issue more stock, sell treasury stock, issue preferred stock, break open the piggy bank and dip into retained earnings, etc. They could issue corporate bonds as a debt instrument instead of a bank loan, or perhaps they have some assets they could sell off. Perhaps licensing Carbon? There are many ways to raise capital. It doesn't matter how they plan on raising it, they will need to convince someone somehow that Dust is going to be amazing and that Eve is going to be an even greater cash cow than it already is. No one in their right mind is going to cough up 20M+ without any reasonable assurance they are going to get it back, and with a big bonus on top of that for the risk they are going to have to take. They have 19 million in retained earnings they could dip into, and this is a great time for issuing bonds. There are a lot of investors who enjoy risk. (though I don't think of CCP as particularly risky given these financials.) Did you check what their assets are based on? And what you pay on issued bonds is indeed low at the moment for bonds that are considered "safe", but a lot of investors are still very afraid of taking on risky assets (Greece anyone?). Anyway, still isn't ready cash, so the point stands.
Takseen	Posted - 2011.06.28 13:06:00 - [130] Originally by: Haven Wind CCP do not have to get a loan, they could issue more stock, sell treasury stock, issue preferred stock, break open the piggy bank and dip into retained earnings, etc. They could issue corporate bonds as a debt instrument instead of a bank loan, or perhaps they have some assets they could sell off. Perhaps licensing Carbon? There are many ways to raise capital. They've already exhausted their retained earnings, they can't go that route. And they might struggle to get any new lenders or investors when their balance sheet looks so dodgy. They had $24m of tangible assets at the end of 2010 against $33m of liabilities. $25m of which is due next year. They'll have to convince people that the $54m they've sunk into development costs will actually turn into revenue somewhere in the forseeable future.

Takseen	Posted - 2011.06.28 13:11:00 - [131] Originally by: Raven Aldura They have 19 million in retained earnings they could dip into, and this is a great time for issuing bonds. There are a lot of investors who enjoy risk. (though I don't think of CCP as particularly risky given these financials.) Its $25m in retained earnings, but the balance sheet figure doesn't represent cold hard cash. Its just an accounting figure to explain how they acquired $83m in assets despite only issuing $20m or so in shares and having $30m in other loans and liabilities. If those retained earings were all still available, they'd be under the Cash figure in current assets.
SwiftShadow14	Posted - 2011.06.28 13:11:00 - [132] Wow...you idiots will bite down on ANYTHING won't you?
Nathan Rosenhal Amarr Arrakis Syndicate	Posted - 2011.06.28 13:13:00 - [133] Originally by: Zombatar Edited by: Zombatar on 28/06/2011 00:35:17 Edited by: Zombatar on 27/06/2011 23:37:08 Quote: But again, CCP had $11M in cash Jan 1 2011. They are burning about $8M a year and will have about $4M left by the time their $11.8M dollar loan is due October 28th. This explains EVERYTHING. Start reading! (see note 19, pg 31) New ways to make money in EvE will help when doing negotiation with the banks for a new loan. Thank you. Are you sure you know how to read a financial document?
Raven Aldura	Posted - 2011.06.28 13:25:00 - [134] Edited by: Raven Aldura on 28/06/2011 13:27:03 Originally by: Takseen Originally by: Haven Wind CCP do not have to get a loan, they could issue more stock, sell treasury stock, issue preferred stock, break open the piggy bank and dip into retained earnings, etc. They could issue corporate bonds as a debt instrument instead of a bank loan, or perhaps they have some assets they could sell off. Perhaps licensing Carbon? There are many ways to raise capital. They've already exhausted their retained earnings, they can't go that route. And they might struggle to get any new lenders or investors when their balance sheet looks so dodgy. They had $24m of tangible assets at the end of 2010 against $33m of liabilities. $25m of which is due next year. They'll have to convince people that the $54m they've sunk into development costs will actually turn into revenue somewhere in the forseeable future. So really the most obvious scenario would be to present to possible shareholders/creditors plans for licensing Carbon technology. Depending on whether they want to go the liability or equity route. Of course with their margins, they might just be able to pull in around 20+ million in cash in the next six months.
Dober Myn	Posted - 2011.06.28 13:29:00 - [135] OP was prolly shooting a statue in Jita in the past week, too.
Maplestone	Posted - 2011.06.28 13:30:00 - [136] Originally by: das licht What's WoD? A gothic LARP (live-action roleplaying game) setting of vampires and werewolves. It is light on mechanics and depends heavily on emergent social-political play. The atmosphere of the way game groups self-orginaize into interconnected local and regional structures is very similar to EVE's emergent corporation gameplay, just minus the spreadsheets. (It may not be obvious from the setting, but in tone and texture, I believe it's a very good fit for CCP's game design philosophy)
Miss Rabblt	Posted - 2011.06.28 13:37:00 - [137] one more thread in "Sensations, scandals and rumors" forum....
Simanti	Posted - 2011.06.28 13:53:00 - [138] Originally by: Boaz Hedion Merkava Originally by: Simanti Wow - I have to say CCP have done some things to wind people up recently - but clearly very few people here have any idea of how a company works, software companies in particular! CCP MAY need to look at how they manage their cash flow and beef up their risk analysis - but they are not doomed. Nice statement. Please back it up. With facts. Facts are in the balance sheet - if you assume that WoD and DUST have zero potential then the rhetoric in this thread has some basis - if you believe it is worth a fifth of the potential CCP clearly do then the balance sheet says this is a solid company. Lets say that WoD and DUST do end up with zero value - the company loses 3/4 of the workforce, maybe an office or two, and the company is back on track in 18 months with a healthy $5M to $7M clear profit - doesn't sound very termianal to me for Eve, maybe under that scenario for DUST and WoD, but not Eve.
Spookyjay Caldari Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic	Posted - 2011.06.28 14:03:00 - [139] We've learned a thing or two with our experiences with the NGE and don't plan on repeating mistakes from the past and not listening to the players. ùJohn Smedley, president of Sony Online Entertainment I only hope CCP figures this out before it's too late.
Keno Range	Posted - 2011.06.28 14:24:00 - [140] Originally by: Ruze Ahkor'Murkon Microsoft won't allow Dust to communicate with EvE, which is why CCP and Microsoft couldn't come to an agreement . What is your source for that? Final Fantasy XI on Xbox Live communicates with Playstation 2 and PC players. No problem there, Microsoft did not have a problem with it. Dust would work very well on Xbox 360 if CCP wanted it to.

Tippia Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.28 14:28:00 - [141] Originally by: Keno Range No problem there, Microsoft did not have a problem with it. "Did" being the operative word, most likelyà ùùù ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö ù ÇÇP
Seul Manus	Posted - 2011.06.28 14:42:00 - [142] Originally by: Jada Maroo Only 117595 more monocles to go! Well I'm not going to buy one.
edith prickley	Posted - 2011.06.28 14:44:00 - [143] Originally by: Simanti Lets say that WoD and DUST do end up with zero value - the company loses 3/4 of the workforce, maybe an office or two, and the company is back on track in 18 months with a healthy $5M to $7M clear profit - doesn't sound very termianal to me for Eve, maybe under that scenario for DUST and WoD, but not Eve. EVE could probably live for quite some time on a skeleton crew of 3 bug-fixing devs and 2 sys-admins, and at that staff level would make a bundle for whoever's running it. (I'd suggest that for the last year, we've proven this in practice.) As long as that's true, there will always be someone prepared to pay for the hamster food and give the wheels a weekly oiling. So I guess the game itself is "safe" for a while, in one form or another. In fact, a sizeable portion of the community could probably be convinced to sign up for pricey lifetime subscriptions if they promised to freeze the code today (better yet, as of two weeks ago) and guaranteed to do no new development at all.
Farelle Gallente Core Impulse Auctorita Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.28 14:47:00 - [144] Originally by: fdfsadgfasdgvasdfasdfasd Uanid Originally by: Zombatar They can simply take a new loan, bigger this time, release DUST/WoD and then we are all happy, with extra monocles colours on the market in eve. Or they can fail like a noob. Anyway, CCP is risking all on DUST/WoD AFAIK, eve would be fine alone, actually pretty damn profitable $ 5-10 mil a year. If you don't risk u don't win. Well you do but not as much. :P Why would a bank give a company another loan when they can't pay off their current one? Would a bank give a loan to someone on the dull? yes, if you had assets they would. (re mortgaging for instance, say you have 15 years to go but can no longer afford the repayments, you re mortgage to a 25 year plan and pay off the 15 year amount with that, giving you lower repayments and the mortgage company more money over the long term)
Seul Manus	Posted - 2011.06.28 14:53:00 - [145] Originally by: Uuali Originally by: Eranicus II DUST is actually a very good idea and it will get CCP some good profits at least for 5-6 months covering all the expanses. The main problem is that, I dont understand why CCP is bothering and spending money on fantasy MMORPG (World of darkness). Looking at the current market situation and all the future projects from industry giants, CCP has absolutely no chances on fantasy MMORPG market. And of course EVE suffers because of the present situation... I dunno. I'll bet the Twilighters would eat WoD if CCP markets it the right way. Of course they haven't really marketed EVE the right way. If they're wondering why they don't have enough subscribers one problem would be that they don't pump the advertising through enough channels. There's a number of times that I've thought how CCP could better advertise EVE. The bookstores, movie ads, action figures, music/ipod downloads free with ipod purchase etc etc. And best of all, not just a boxed version of the game like they have now but every two years release all the good stuff as a paid expansion with all the hoopla at the game shops that go with it! I'd pay $30 every two years for big stuff rather than have to pop $60 for every little item along the way. Another problem is the advertising trailers look NOTHING like the actual game.
Maplestone	Posted - 2011.06.28 14:56:00 - [146] Originally by: Miss Rabblt one more thread in "Sensations, scandals and rumors" forum.... I think on this one, I agree with you. Prying into the financials of a company with the same speculative frenzy as patch notes is crossing a line. makes note to stop posting in them
edith prickley	Posted - 2011.06.28 14:57:00 - [147] Originally by: Gnulpie You also forgot that the Sony PS3-exclusive deal probably flushed in a lot of fresh $$$. You think so? Hmm, must drop by my local Sony store this week. I have some great PS3-exclusive ideas, and could always use some fresh $$$.
Ingvar Angst Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United	Posted - 2011.06.28 14:58:00 - [148] Here's what I don't get... ArenaNet, makers of Guild Wars, has a no-subscription paradigm. You buy the box, you buy the expansions, no sub fee. Only the first game is required, expansions are optional (but open you up to new continents). They have microtransactions that are purely cosmetic... armor skins, costumes and the like. They're incredibly successful, selling over 7 million copies and fully financing the development of Guild Wars 2 for the past 5 years or so, which will use the same exact revenue model. Why can't CCP at least see what and how they're doing it? Talk to them about what the players like in MT, what sells well at what prices? I'm not saying drop subscriptions... it's way too late for that, the economy would crap the bed (due to Plex tie-ins and all). But the MT model is highly successful over there and no one has any complaints! Look at what's working, talk to the people. Learn from those that are succeeding. It can't hurt.
Seul Manus	Posted - 2011.06.28 15:19:00 - [149] I don't understand company finances, but if what is coming in - revenue - is more then what is going out - expences - then the company is doing ok, if its vice versa then its in trouble. CCP should be like Polyphony Digital, and just concentrate on a single game i.e. Eve, the reason CCP is in such a financial bind is because they became over ambitious, and as such they only have themselves to blame. As for this refinacing debt, a debt still has to be paid back, and keep the banks sweet is just bull ****. Its that kind of attitude that has got the global economy into the mess it its in. You have to live within your income, and that goes for companies as well as individuals, if you don't you deserve everything that happens to you, and that includes going bankrupt.
Zozefin	Posted - 2011.06.28 15:44:00 - [150] A few notes. 1) EVE is profitable and so is CCP. 2) Reduced quality and/or lack of new content of the latest patches is due to CCP giving an insane ammount of $ for the development of Dust/WoD. If i read correctly the numbers; at least 10m $ were diverted from the EVE income to the development of the other 2 titles. They mention the development cost of EVE but not of the other 2 games. 3) 2/3 of the devs are not working for EVE. Thats the reason ofc behind all those delays in delivering content. Bugs, lag etc??? WTF r u thinking.... 4) CCP takes a huge risk with realising Dust. Its a free game (no subs allowed for PS3 titles) so the price of the title will be around to 50-80$. For the box titles the profit is around 10-30% for the company. For the electronically delivered titles the profit is around 50-70%. If they want to cover cost they need to sell at least half a million copies. Now sony says that ps3 sales estimate at around 40m pieces. They need to sell Dust to every 8th owner of PS3. Even if they hav a store inside Dust; dont expect that every 16y old teenager has real money to buy items. And dont forget that there r other high class titles out there. 5) If they dont achieve their targets for both new games and if they have a bit debt they will be vulnerable to hostile takeover. 6) The last developments in the EVE world and the publicity that the Noble store took will hit hard EVE online and CCP ofc. The damage control and PR was poor the least. The reputation also got hitted hard.

Zombatar	Posted - 2011.06.28 16:59:00 - [151] Originally by: Snake Scofield OP knows what he's talking about, except how to spell bankruptcy. Fixed. Also this thread is meant to shed some light over why CCP failed so much lately and I think this explains a large part of it.
William Baring Caldari Barings Trade And Finance	Posted - 2011.06.28 17:10:00 - [152] Edited by: William Baring on 28/06/2011 17:10:44 Really dont think this topic is helpful at all. I was all for protesting about non vanity items etc (moral protest). But people are now getting carried away and just jumping on anything. Doubt any of this is accurate, im sure CCP are finacially competant and no where near bankruptcy.
Zombatar	Posted - 2011.06.28 17:14:00 - [153] Originally by: William Baring Edited by: William Baring on 28/06/2011 17:10:44 Really dont think this topic is helpful at all. I was all for protesting about non vanity items etc (moral protest). But people are now getting carried away and just jumping on anything. Doubt any of this is accurate, im sure CCP are finacially competant and no where near bankruptcy. True, but it explains their policy very well. They will get new funding, but at the expense of us all and EVE.


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