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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Khiijan Araal
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Posted - 2011.07.03 10:12:00 -
[1]
When WoW first came out, it had a reputation of no hand holding, where players were expected to figure out most of the good bits by themselves. Instances were tough, and required a cooperative group in order to be completed. The kind of people who played ate that stuff up and asked for more, loving every bit of the challenge. It's incredibly addictive to have a challenge thrown at you and then have to work in order to overcome it.
Unfortunately, Blizzard wanted their game to grow. They wanted more people hooked. WoW had a fast growing reputation, which enticed many people to give it a go. Many of those new people came from far out of their usual genre to have a look, some of them barely even gamers to begin with. They had their look and then complained because it wasn't for them.
Blizzard wanted more subs. They wanted these novice players to be hooked as well. With ever subsequent expansion, the game was dumbed down more and more in the name of accessibility.
Do you know what happened? They lost their core players. The hard core MMO guys all left WoW. They scoff at it. They're all playing other games now. WoW now has a reputation as being a playground for little kids. Without the core players, there was nobody left to sing WoW's praises and the game is now crawling into its grave.
I can only hope that this same fate does not befall EVE. Do not dumb down EVE. Easy games do not garner the core group of dedicated players that keep a game going. A game's reputation hinges upon those dedicated players.
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Kez Aumer
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Posted - 2011.07.03 10:17:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Khiijan Araal
When WoW first came out, it had a reputation of no hand holding
Look, I know you're trying to construct a parallel to EVE here, but it helps if you don't start with a blatant lie. And yes, I played wow at launch.
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Originally by: Dalketh
By the way "clearer" isn't a word so I would avoid calling other people stupid. 
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VKhaun Vex
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Posted - 2011.07.03 10:19:00 -
[3]
Edited by: VKhaun Vex on 03/07/2011 10:21:22
Originally by: Kez Aumer
Originally by: Khiijan Araal
When WoW first came out, it had a reputation of no hand holding
Look, I know you're trying to construct a parallel to EVE here, but it helps if you don't start with a blatant lie. And yes, I played wow at launch.
...this...
All 'mumorpuguh' games are incredible hand holders with neatly laid out areas, gear, and specializations. WoW most of all. Also... WoW is far from dead, has plenty of hardcore players, and was called a kids game from launch. WTF are you smoking that you see a time line here?
Quote:
Nothing in EVE will ever require real life money, as long as players are selling PLEX for ISK. Not even the monocle!
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/devblog/2011/currencyCycle.jpg
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Sader Rykane
Amarr
The Dark Space Initiative
Revival Of The Talocan Empire
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Posted - 2011.07.03 10:21:00 -
[4]
Yes... 10 million subscribers... clearly that mmo is failing hard.
You don't have to LIKE wow to realize that it has made FANTASTIC business decisions.
In all honest when your second most competitor literlaly has 10-15x LESS subscribers than you. You have not only done something RIGHT, you've done it REALLY REALLY REALLY right.
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Dante Marcellus
Minmatar
Belligerent Underpayed Tactical Team
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Posted - 2011.07.03 10:23:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Dante Marcellus on 03/07/2011 10:25:38
I never really "got" what was so hard about WoW. I played a bit after launch and found the big yellow question marks over-top an NPC's head pretty easy to find.
Dungeons were always self explanatory. Kill the little guys, kill the boss, watch out for his "special" attack.
And making money? A joke. I played to cap and had more money than Bill Gates, if he were an Orc.
Now, take these things I just mentioned, dress them up real nice and pretty and call it an expansion for 5 consecutive years.
There's your reason as to why WoW is dying. (although, I have friends that still play the game and scoffed at me for playing EVE over WoW, so maybe it's easier to keep their attention than it is mine)
And if you're reading this, you've fallen into a signature trap. You owe me 1m ISK. |
Bad Messenger
draketrain
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Posted - 2011.07.03 10:25:00 -
[6]
Every game start to feel boring after couple years, just like you girlfriend is not so fresh and exiting anymore but still you can live with her.
EVE is going to expand on new areas and i do not feel that it is bad thing, it is refreshing thing it brings something new to game if you want to have it, if not you can still play old EVE outside of stations.
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Lu'Marat
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Posted - 2011.07.03 10:26:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Sader Rykane
Yes... 10 million subscribers... clearly that mmo is failing hard.
You don't have to LIKE wow to realize that it has made FANTASTIC business decisions.
In all honest when your second most competitor literlaly has 10-15x LESS subscribers than you. You have not only done something RIGHT, you've done it REALLY REALLY REALLY right.
Like it or not but yes, exactly.
Also:
Originally by: Dante Marcellus
...more money than Bill Gates, if he were an Orc.
Wait, and here I always thought... aw man :(
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Takseen
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Posted - 2011.07.03 10:26:00 -
[8]
Well you certainly told them Blizzard guys. I only hope their mountains of subscribers and billions of dollars will console them.
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Xiozor
Malevolent Intentions
Dark Solar Empire
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Posted - 2011.07.03 10:46:00 -
[9]
I asked my flatmate who played WoW up to Burning Crusade just now for an opinion and he says;
"Are you ****ting me? Heroic instances in Burning Crusade were much harder than any of the end-game instances in vanilla."
But he never did raiding, so who knows.
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Mr.Kippling just launched a nuclear holocaust at third world countries! ... But he does make exceedingly good cakes. |
kerradeph
Gallente
Penumbra Military Industrial Complex
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Posted - 2011.07.03 10:51:00 -
[10]
it's not hard at all. that's why people like it. their watching TV and thinking they have an effect.
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Tanya Fox
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Posted - 2011.07.03 10:58:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Kez Aumer
Originally by: Khiijan Araal
When WoW first came out, it had a reputation of no hand holding
Look, I know you're trying to construct a parallel to EVE here, but it helps if you don't start with a blatant lie. And yes, I played wow at launch.
He's not lying, seems you have a short memory.
Quests are a good example, in those early days there was no quest tracker ingame, you had to find out yourself where the quests were and in some quest cases what to do. There was a quest tracker available from outside of the game available as an add-on. Eventually Blizzard decided as a lot were using a quest tracker as an add-on they would add one to the game themselves. So this is a good example of a change that effectively holds your hand and guides you through the game making it a lot easier.
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.07.03 10:59:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Khiijan Araal
Blizzard wanted more subs. They wanted these novice players to be hooked as well. With ever subsequent expansion, the game was dumbed down more and more in the name of accessibility.
Do you know what happened? They lost their core players. The hard core MMO guys all left WoW.
I'm sure Blizzard doesn't miss their "core" players. And no, the CCP shareholders won't miss the EVE core players either if subscriptions are tripled for whatever reason. In the end it's about money, not staying friends at all costs with some "core player group". |
Comy 1
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2011.07.03 11:01:00 -
[13]
I for one see a distinct difference between a game being complex, and having (mainly) the GUI badly designed. There are alot of changes that I would like to see in EVE that might look like it's "dumbing down" the game, while in reality it's making it more intuitive.
And to mention WoW...what killed that game for alot of hardcore gamers was rather the fact that it lost it's MMO feeling. You no longer HAD to travel through the world or interact with other players. You could log in, not talk to a single player, klick a button and automatically be thrown into a random group to run a dungeon or battleground. Again not having to speak a single word.
What's awesome about EVE is that players have to interact on so many levels, where WoW CAN be played pretty much as a single player game.
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Uglavitch Nefrex
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.07.03 11:02:00 -
[14]
WoW is dead? since when. I am playing it now. Perhaps you should compare EvE to Starwars Galaxies, you know the game that failed not the one with 12million subs
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.07.03 11:05:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 03/07/2011 11:06:39
Originally by: Comy 1
I for one see a distinct difference between a game being complex, and having (mainly) the GUI badly designed. There are alot of changes that I would like to see in EVE that might look like it's "dumbing down" the game, while in reality it's making it more intuitive.
And to mention WoW...what killed that game for alot of hardcore gamers was rather the fact that it lost it's MMO feeling. You no longer HAD to travel through the world or interact with other players. You could log in, not talk to a single player, klick a button and automatically be thrown into a random group to run a dungeon or battleground. Again not having to speak a single word.
What's awesome about EVE is that players have to interact on so many levels, where WoW CAN be played pretty much as a single player game.
That happens in EVE a lot too. Very slow travel and most PvE content being single player, unlike most mmorpgs, makes for a lot of non-coop gameplay. Sometimes I enter the game with everyone in corp channel being afk.
Except for PvP and WH/Incursions, EVE hardly encourages teamwork at all by their content design. |
Tanya Fox
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Posted - 2011.07.03 11:08:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Tanya Fox on 03/07/2011 11:08:23
Originally by: Uglavitch Nefrex
WoW is dead? since when. I am playing it now. Perhaps you should compare EvE to Starwars Galaxies, you know the game that failed not the one with 12million subs
Is it really that healthy now? From what I saw of it before I left, it seemed only high level raiding was about the healthest part.
Questing in Catacylsm was a bad idea as it become boring quick if you level multi characters. The quests became far too linear because they tried to make them more story like.
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Comy 1
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2011.07.03 11:11:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling
Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 03/07/2011 11:06:39
Originally by: Comy 1
I for one see a distinct difference between a game being complex, and having (mainly) the GUI badly designed. There are alot of changes that I would like to see in EVE that might look like it's "dumbing down" the game, while in reality it's making it more intuitive.
And to mention WoW...what killed that game for alot of hardcore gamers was rather the fact that it lost it's MMO feeling. You no longer HAD to travel through the world or interact with other players. You could log in, not talk to a single player, klick a button and automatically be thrown into a random group to run a dungeon or battleground. Again not having to speak a single word.
What's awesome about EVE is that players have to interact on so many levels, where WoW CAN be played pretty much as a single player game.
That happens in EVE a lot too. Very slow travel and most PvE content being single player, unlike most mmorpgs, makes for a lot of non-coop gameplay. Sometimes I enter the game with everyone in corp channel being afk.
Except for PvP and WH/Incursions, EVE hardly encourages teamwork at all by their content design.
Certainly, I agree that EVE also has elements that can be played pretty much as a single player game. But what makes EVE different to me is that those players still have to rely on other players to get their ships and equipment, and as I said traveling. The travel part might seem drawn out and boring, but to me it is an important aspect of any MMO, since it makes you vulnurable to attacks from people who choose to play the game as thieves of gankers. WoW lost alot of that, and the people that enjoy being a-holes or just loving the part of PvP that isn't organized arround "GO CATCH THE FLAG GICE!1" felt like the game just...died on them.
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Takseen
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Posted - 2011.07.03 11:15:00 -
[18]
So the moral of the story is, if you abandon your core playerbase, you will gain millions of extra subscribers and boatloads of cash. Yes that's exactly what you want to be telling CCP:)
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dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
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Posted - 2011.07.03 11:18:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Comy 1
What's awesome about EVE is that players have to interact on so many levels, where WoW CAN be played pretty much as a single player game.
If you mean you don't have to join a guild, yes then you can play wow solo. Still there is not much content in wow that does not require you to form a group with other players, you can do quests alone but battlegrounds, dungeons and raids which are the main part of the game all require teamwork.
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Dalmont Delantee
Gallente
Shiloh Technologies
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Posted - 2011.07.03 11:21:00 -
[20]
I see what you did there, but its wrong.
1) Wow kept its players because its very easy to play - also its now something socially acceptable to do for the non gamers (mums, kids, etc) it is also sanitized and "bland".
EVE is however, unless they completely change the game (from base) hard to play (lots of right clicks, skills don't make sense, loose everything when you die) and always has been. Eve adds new things to do (even if broken) WoW adds the same things, but makes them prettier.
Actually, its sunny outside and I really can't be bothered to answer your silly statement...
Just accept you're wrong
Take comfort in knowing that its probably some pimply faced twit, or 40 year old virgin, who gleens everytime mommy offfers to take them to needle point lessons |
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Mina Sebiestar
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Posted - 2011.07.03 11:21:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Takseen
So the moral of the story is, if you abandon your core playerbase, you will gain millions of extra subscribers and boatloads of cash. Yes that's exactly what you want to be telling CCP:)
not unless axe launchers are introduced,pve is dumbed even more down and pvp is only if agreement is made on both sides and of course MT is introduced....oh wait.
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Chris Bartlett
Caldari
C.R.M Productions
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Posted - 2011.07.03 11:25:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Xiozor
I asked my flatmate who played WoW up to Burning Crusade just now for an opinion and he says;
"Are you ****ting me? Heroic instances in Burning Crusade were much harder than any of the end-game instances in vanilla."
But he never did raiding, so who knows.
They were at first sure. They were ridiculously hard at first aye. But like all hard things in WoW, there were too many complaints, and they were subsequently nerfed and made trivial.
Nowadays, the only challenge with the two hard heroics (Zul'Aman and Zul'Gurub) is finding non-******ed people using the dungeon finder. Main reason i stopped playing for the third time. Work schedule is too sporadic for me to raid, so the only way to properly advance my character is to do my 7 random dungeons a week. Sick and tired of having it ruined by ******ed players.
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Aramatheia
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Posted - 2011.07.03 11:26:00 -
[23]
Quote:
What killed WoW
activision, and thier size, so huge that if one person has unresolvable connection issues after years and spending thousands of dollars they still can ignore it. Really who's going to notice 1 frustrated person among the thousands?
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Tanya Fox
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Posted - 2011.07.03 11:28:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Comy 1
Certainly, I agree that EVE also has elements that can be played pretty much as a single player game. But what makes EVE different to me is that those players still have to rely on other players to get their ships and equipment,.
If someone is playing solo they don't care if the ship is player made or purchased from an NPC. There is no real player interaction going on there.
Originally by: Comy 1
and as I said traveling. The travel part might seem drawn out and boring, but to me it is an important aspect of any MMO, since it makes you vulnurable to attacks from people who choose to play the game as thieves of gankers. WoW lost alot of that, and the people that enjoy being a-holes or just loving the part of PvP that isn't organized arround "GO CATCH THE FLAG GICE!1" felt like the game just...died on them.
You refer to battle-grounds being introduced I take it. In the early days world pvp was ok, then they introduced ranks (titles) which killed the world PvP because it turned it from world PvP to world ganking. So when battle-grounds were added most of the world ganking stopped because they could then get more kills in the battle-grounds. The ranks (titles) were the equivalent to K/Bs in this game for all intents and purposes.
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Fractal Muse
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Posted - 2011.07.03 11:33:00 -
[25]
The problem with the OP's post is twofold:
First, the premise is flawed. WoW is not dead. You cannot even pretend it is dead.
Second, WoW was never 'hardcore' or 'hard' as such. Anyone could play it. Anyone could raid. Almost anyone could beat out the raids.
I played WoW in the beta. I played WoW when it first came out. I raided when the only raid zone was Molten Core. It was not any 'harder' then it was when I left for the second time which was burning crusade. I raided then as well. If anything, the raid zones were more complicated and intricate which made them... well.. harder. The counter to the increased difficulty was the ease of finding out the strategies of how to beat everything.
After every expansion in WoW the first people who got to the raid zones or went into the heroics found these things to be hard and challenging. After a few months everything became 'easier' because people out-geared the zones. Instead of having to pay attention and try one could just overpower the zone and, essentially, zerg it.
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Forando
Interstellar Cowards
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Posted - 2011.07.03 11:36:00 -
[26]
You can say much about WoW, but I has been a splendid catalyst into the Subscriber-based gaming world for loads of people. I've talked to many EVE Online players that would never have subscribed, before they had played the mainstream MMO, that is WoW. Many was of the mindset, that they would not pay monthly for a game. It has changed.
Personally, I've done pro-raiding (2nd-7th world kills) and World PvP. Sure it was fun, but the game just don't offer much of an evolution in terms of incorporating new mechanics for my taste. Only thing that would (perhaps!?) make me curious enough ti re-subscribe, would be FFA-PvP Servers with mechanics like Linage II's 'Guild'/'Alliance' based PvP-scene. But hey, it's already there in Lineage II, if you like elves instead of spaceships. So why bother!?
Just a little pocket of isk from this pod-fool.
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Enjoy, and fly safe.. |
Joyana Dakota
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Posted - 2011.07.03 11:39:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Khiijan Araal
When WoW first came out, it had a reputation of no hand holding, where players were expected to figure out most of the good bits by themselves. Instances were tough, and required a cooperative group in order to be completed. The kind of people who played ate that stuff up and asked for more, loving every bit of the challenge. It's incredibly addictive to have a challenge thrown at you and then have to work in order to overcome it.
Unfortunately, Blizzard wanted their game to grow. They wanted more people hooked. WoW had a fast growing reputation, which enticed many people to give it a go. Many of those new people came from far out of their usual genre to have a look, some of them barely even gamers to begin with. They had their look and then complained because it wasn't for them.
Blizzard wanted more subs. They wanted these novice players to be hooked as well. With ever subsequent expansion, the game was dumbed down more and more in the name of accessibility.
Do you know what happened? They lost their core players. The hard core MMO guys all left WoW. They scoff at it. They're all playing other games now. WoW now has a reputation as being a playground for little kids. Without the core players, there was nobody left to sing WoW's praises and the game is now crawling into its grave.
I can only hope that this same fate does not befall EVE. Do not dumb down EVE. Easy games do not garner the core group of dedicated players that keep a game going. A game's reputation hinges upon those dedicated players.
Yes, with 12 million players WoW is dying and Elvis is singing blues songs in my basement !
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Noran Ferah
Red Sky Morning
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Posted - 2011.07.03 11:42:00 -
[28]
WOW is a theme park where death is meaningless.
EVE is a ghetto, in which I get your stuff.
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Tanya Fox
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Posted - 2011.07.03 11:43:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Fractal Muse
The problem with the OP's post is twofold:
First, the premise is flawed. WoW is not dead. You cannot even pretend it is dead.
Second, WoW was never 'hardcore' or 'hard' as such. Anyone could play it. Anyone could raid. Almost anyone could beat out the raids.
I played WoW in the beta. I played WoW when it first came out. I raided when the only raid zone was Molten Core. It was not any 'harder' then it was when I left for the second time which was burning crusade. I raided then as well. If anything, the raid zones were more complicated and intricate which made them... well.. harder. The counter to the increased difficulty was the ease of finding out the strategies of how to beat everything.
After every expansion in WoW the first people who got to the raid zones or went into the heroics found these things to be hard and challenging. After a few months everything became 'easier' because people out-geared the zones. Instead of having to pay attention and try one could just overpower the zone and, essentially, zerg it.
The biggest change is people have turned raids from being fun which they were in the vanilla days, to just going through the motions on their quest for gear.
Gear score was a big factor for making raids less fun. What's the point of building a team that's unlikely to fail and the only real motivation is for what gear you can get out of it.
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Harcosi
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Posted - 2011.07.03 11:45:00 -
[30]
Wow was never hard, the players were just crap.
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