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T'amber Anomandari Demaleon	Posted - 2011.07.03 11:55:00 - [1] Its good to see everyone getting along a little better than the last couple of weeks! Something of interest I noticed from the emergency summit devblog was the particular wording of the Vanity MT paragraph and I was interested to see what other people thought. Quote: It is CCPæs plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only. There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store. What I find interesting here is that it doesn't mention Vanity items that are purely cosmetic and it raises some questions of exactly what "Vanity" Microtransactions are. Obviously its going to be extremely difficult to pin down every type but it would make things easier if there were some more specific descriptions available for us to use when discussin this topic. You may be thinking I'm reading too far into the semantics, but before we go into that, lets consider which of the following descriptions best describes what you think a "Vanity" Microtransaction is: Vanity Microtransaction: An item, upgrade or service purchased with a game world currency that is directly purchasable with a real world currency from within or outside of the game world that gives no bonus and/or penalty to a game world mechanic or attribute but changes, or is a part of a process that changes the visual appearance of a game world asset. An Out of Game Service purchased with Aurum that allows for account management changes and doesn't effect any game world mechanic or attribute. An Ingame service purchased with Aurum that effects no bonus and/or penalty to any game world mechanic. Vanity Microtransaction: An item, upgrade or service purchased with a game world currency that is directly purchasable with a real world currency from within or outside of the game world that gives no game breaking bonus and/or penalty to a game world mechanic or attribute but changes, or is a part of a process that changes the visual appearance of a game world asset. An Out of Game Service purchased with Aurum that allows for account management changes and doesn't effect any game world mechanic or attribute. An Ingame service purchased with Aurum that effects no bonus and/or penalty to any game world mechanic. Seems to me there are three types; Cosmetic Microtransaction: - Purely visual changes only, No mechanics, statistics or attributes are changed (Clothes, Ship Appearance etc) - An Out of Game service that only effects your account and no mechanics or attributes in game (No Name Changes, character buffs etc) - An In Game service that effects nothing in the game (Ie. Being able to film your battles, Access to the Dev Jessica Tool, New EVE Music for your Jukebox, Different voice actors for ship notifications etc) Vanity Microtransaction: - Visual changes to assets with minimal or small bonuses to the game world (Implant that allows you to "remember" more ship fittings, A Hat that gives you a 1% increase to Charisma etc) - An In Game or Out of Game service that effects a game attribute or could have social effects (Your Character Name, Sex, Race, Bloodline) - A restricted service or mechanic that effects game world statistics or attributes. (Ie. Everyone is entitled to purchase 2 extra Neural Remaps per year, You can re-assign 10,000,000 Skill Points per Year maximum etc.) Pay to Win Microtransaction: - An item or service that allows you to acquire an advantage that cannot be gained without the expenditure of additional real life money, on your part or on someone else's. - Being able to aquire a game affecting good or service without the expenditure of time, on your part or someone else's or without having to go through normal manufacturing processes. Microtransactions? Click here and vote Yes, No or Vanity only
nartela	Posted - 2011.07.03 11:58:00 - [2] you do know what the word vanity means right
Gran Asutor	Posted - 2011.07.03 11:58:00 - [3] TL;DR And Your point is?
T'amber Anomandari Demaleon	Posted - 2011.07.03 12:04:00 - [4] Edited by: T''amber Anomandari Demaleon on 03/07/2011 12:14:56 Edited by: T''amber Anomandari Demaleon on 03/07/2011 12:06:28 Originally by: nartela you do know what the word vanity means right van+i+ty (vn-t) n. pl. van+i+ties 1. The quality or condition of being vain. 2. Excessive pride in one's appearance or accomplishments; conceit. See Synonyms at conceit. 3. Lack of usefulness, worth, or effect; worthlessness. 4. a. Something that is vain, futile, or worthless. b. Something about which one is vain or conceited. cos+met+ic (kz-mtk) n. 1. A preparation, such as powder or a skin cream, designed to beautify the body by direct application. 2. Something superficial that is used to cover a deficiency or defect. adj. 1. Serving to beautify the body, especially the face and hair. 2. Serving to modify or improve the appearance of a physical feature, defect, or irregularity: cosmetic surgery. 3. a. Decorative rather than functional: cosmetic fenders on cars. b. Lacking depth or significance; superficial: made a few cosmetic changes when she took over the company. Microtransactions? Click here and vote Yes, No or Vanity only
nartela	Posted - 2011.07.03 12:08:00 - [5] there pretty much identical vanty items are clothing im pretty sure that buying extra ship slots would be under the p2w as it gives you an advantage over others.
T'amber Anomandari Demaleon	Posted - 2011.07.03 12:26:00 - [6] Originally by: nartela there pretty much identical vanty items are clothing im pretty sure that buying extra ship slots would be under the p2w as it gives you an advantage over others. Personally I'm of the mind that there is just Cosmetic MTs and Pay to Win MTs. (I ran outta space when typing to continue my discussion) I'm just pointing out that there seems to be 3 different types of MTs that people commonly talk about and they're not the same. The three options I listed seemed to be the most commonly refered to, where the cosmetic example is what most of us talk about when refering to MTs that don't effect the game, and vanity being what CCP talks about when talking about the same topic. There is so much grey area as to what is game effecting and what is unacceptable, and it needs defining before this whole debarcle is repeated for the third time when CCP misunderstands again. Microtransactions? Click here and vote Yes, No or Cosmetic only
xxxTRUSTxxx	Posted - 2011.07.03 12:32:00 - [7] Originally by: T'amber Anomandari Demaleon Edited by: T''amber Anomandari Demaleon on 03/07/2011 12:14:56 Edited by: T''amber Anomandari Demaleon on 03/07/2011 12:06:28 Originally by: nartela you do know what the word vanity means right van+i+ty (vn-t) n. pl. van+i+ties 1. The quality or condition of being vain. 2. Excessive pride in one's appearance or accomplishments; conceit. See Synonyms at conceit. 3. Lack of usefulness, worth, or effect; worthlessness. 4. a. Something that is vain, futile, or worthless. b. Something about which one is vain or conceited. cos+met+ic (kz-mtk) n. 1. A preparation, such as powder or a skin cream, designed to beautify the body by direct application. 2. Something superficial that is used to cover a deficiency or defect. adj. 1. Serving to beautify the body, especially the face and hair. 2. Serving to modify or improve the appearance of a physical feature, defect, or irregularity: cosmetic surgery. 3. a. Decorative rather than functional: cosmetic fenders on cars. b. Lacking depth or significance; superficial: made a few cosmetic changes when she took over the company. OP can read,, but doesn't comprehend.
Jennifer Starling Imperial Navy Forum Patrol	Posted - 2011.07.03 12:33:00 - [8] They're also removing plex and the character bazaar from EVE! GREAT!! The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. The CSM, under NDA, has been presented with CCPæs plans for continued evolution of the business model and agrees that nothing they saw breaks this principle.
T'amber Anomandari Demaleon	Posted - 2011.07.03 12:37:00 - [9] Originally by: xxxTRUSTxxx Originally by: T'amber Anomandari Demaleon dictionary definitions OP can read,, but doesn't comprehend. I was showing that I knew what they mean. While they are similiar, they're not EXACTLY the same like different peoples understanding of Vanity/ Cosmetic Microtransactions, and this was the point of the post - I'd just not finished it yet as I ran out of room to post before he replied. Microtransactions? Click here and vote Yes, No or Cosmetic only
Kirkland Langue	Posted - 2011.07.03 12:44:00 - [10] Originally by: Jennifer Starling They're also removing plex and the character bazaar from EVE! GREAT!! The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. The CSM, under NDA, has been presented with CCPæs plans for continued evolution of the business model and agrees that nothing they saw breaks this principle. Since fairness is completely up to interpretation - it isn't hard to ask, "Is it really unfair to give those willing to pay a small advantage?" Even if their plans included MT items that gave an advantage, those items would not break this "principle" - meaning that we learn nothing from the above quote.
T'amber Anomandari Demaleon	Posted - 2011.07.03 12:51:00 - [11] Edited by: T''amber Anomandari Demaleon on 03/07/2011 12:52:26 Originally by: Kirkland Langue Originally by: Jennifer Starling They're also removing plex and the character bazaar from EVE! GREAT!! The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. The CSM, under NDA, has been presented with CCPæs plans for continued evolution of the business model and agrees that nothing they saw breaks this principle. Since fairness is completely up to interpretation - it isn't hard to ask, "Is it really unfair to give those willing to pay a small advantage?" Even if their plans included MT items that gave an advantage, those items would not break this "principle" - meaning that we learn nothing from the above quote. When we were in Iceland last October we discussed this very topic of what is Vanity and what isn't. Seeing as they still didn't understand afterwards (I can't say what they were planning due to NDA) and from whats just happened it would be great to get a more definitive reply. The whole Plex for Remaps debarcle from last year (CSM5) could have been averted if they'd only talked about it first. Their idea of being able to get as many Remaps as you liked for Plex caused alot more tears than a more restrained approach like everyone being allowed to pay Plex for an extra 2 remaps a year maximum, per character. I do wonder how many people actively started playing again just to see Incarna and what all the fuss was about, I know I did. It would be interesting to see how many other old players did the same. If anything, this Drahma is what alot of people live for and its all so terribly exciting. Microtransactions? Click here and vote Yes, No or Cosmetic only
Tugrath Akers	Posted - 2011.07.03 13:22:00 - [12] You probably think this thread is about you
Edward Mungrelson	Posted - 2011.07.03 13:30:00 - [13] Quote: It is CCPæs plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only. There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store. Since we're being all :tinfoilhat: I'm surprised you didn't point out that they have yet to say there won't be another currency/store for non-cosmetic MT, only that it won't be in the NeX for Aurum. Surely Dust will be using a new currency? I doubt you'll be able to toss a few million ISK to Dust players from Eve either. Originally by: T'amber Anomandari Demaleon van+i+ty (vn-t) n. pl. van+i+ties * 1. The quality or condition of being vain. * 2. Excessive pride in one's appearance or accomplishments; conceit. See Synonyms at conceit. * 3. Lack of usefulness, worth, or effect; worthlessness. * 4. o a. Something that is vain, futile, or worthless. o b. Something about which one is vain or conceited. I would guess CCP are being intentionally vague because they don't want to shoot themselves in the foot again by saying they won't do what they may feel they have to in the future.
Velios M. Corp -Mostly Harmless-	Posted - 2011.07.03 13:51:00 - [14] Anything costing the equivalent value of $60 should not be called a Micro Transaction. That is a fairly major purchase in my eyes, triple what it cost me to buy the actual EVE software on DVD back in 2003.
T'amber Anomandari Demaleon	Posted - 2011.07.03 13:57:00 - [15] Originally by: Edward Mungrelson Quote: It is CCPæs plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only. There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store. Since we're being all :tinfoilhat: I'm surprised you didn't point out that they have yet to say there won't be another currency/store for non-cosmetic MT, only that it won't be in the NeX for Aurum. Surely Dust will be using a new currency? I doubt you'll be able to toss a few million ISK to Dust players from Eve either. Originally by: T'amber Anomandari Demaleon van+i+ty (vn-t) n. pl. van+i+ties * 1. The quality or condition of being vain. * 2. Excessive pride in one's appearance or accomplishments; conceit. See Synonyms at conceit. * 3. Lack of usefulness, worth, or effect; worthlessness. * 4. o a. Something that is vain, futile, or worthless. o b. Something about which one is vain or conceited. I would guess CCP are being intentionally vague because they don't want to shoot themselves in the foot again by saying they won't do what they may feel they have to in the future. Hehe, I was waiting for someone else to point that else least I look even more :tinfoil: than I already do :P :P You're looking different btw. :P Microtransactions? Click here and vote Yes, No or Cosmetic only
Bad Messenger draketrain	Posted - 2011.07.03 14:11:00 - [16] CCP should improve NeX shop selection by bringing sanity items, it seems that EVE player base has lot of potential customers for those.
Jennifer Starling Imperial Navy Forum Patrol	Posted - 2011.07.03 14:17:00 - [17] Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 03/07/2011 14:17:42 Originally by: Kirkland Langue Originally by: Jennifer Starling They're also removing plex and the character bazaar from EVE! GREAT!! The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time. The CSM, under NDA, has been presented with CCPæs plans for continued evolution of the business model and agrees that nothing they saw breaks this principle. Since fairness is completely up to interpretation - it isn't hard to ask, "Is it really unfair to give those willing to pay a small advantage?" Even if their plans included MT items that gave an advantage, those items would not break this "principle" - meaning that we learn nothing from the above quote. True. I wonder, if buying a 80 SP character with PLEX for ISK apparently is not considered "an unfair advantage", then what is? And subsequently, what's the value of the above statement then?
Erik Finnegan Gallente Polytechnique Gallenteenne	Posted - 2011.07.03 17:10:00 - [18] I like this initiative. My suggestions are two : in which ever change to the definition that may still be made, keep the "negative" definition. Tell clearly, what is not desired, while leaving an infinite space of opportunities as what is may be. Also, in order to be clear such rubber terms like "game-breaking" and "unfair" need to be fleshed out. Following the famous quote "I know it when I see one", or let's say the approach of Common Law, I would invite the community to list things that they would deem unsuitable as a product offer in the NeX. In future, as the game will evolve into new game mechanics, we will have to decide again and again, as a community, which products we deem appropriate and which we do not. CCP has committed IMO to follow up on this with the CSM periodically.
Anna Maziarczyk	Posted - 2011.07.03 17:26:00 - [19] And so it begins..... We are full steam, head first, into our Shaping and Defining phase. Now its time to change what you think X and Y are. So when we introduce X, in a BIG WAY, well, it wasnt Y afterall...... I have soooo many bookmarks to reprint once P2W hits..... might be worth resubbing in a couple months just to repost all of them to the front page.
Anna Maziarczyk	Posted - 2011.07.03 17:32:00 - [20] Edited by: Anna Maziarczyk on 03/07/2011 17:36:00 Vanity items are items purchased, with IRL cash, that do nothing more than change the APPEARANCE of your character or avatar. In EVE it would be paint jobs or other visual effects that have nothing to do with gameplay. And now that there are Characters, Vanity items would be clothing or accesseries that have ZERO impact on gameplay. Vanity items DO NOT INCLUDE Account Management features, Character transfers, SP SALES, Standing Adjustments, etc etc. Anything a player normally EARNS through gameplay is NOT considered a Vanity Item. A player EARNS SP, Standing, etc etc, and so thee things ARE NOT VANITY AT ALL. Its NOT simply whether or not the purchase bestows Bonuses. I can think of A LOT of things CCP will sell, that neither bestow Bonuses or penalties, yet are NOT Vanity. FOr instance - A restricted service or mechanic that effects game world statistics or attributes. (Ie. Everyone is entitled to purchase 2 extra Neural Remaps per year, You can re-assign 10,000,000 Skill Points per Year maximum etc.) ^ Is DEFINITIVELY NOT VANITY. or Cosmetic. Or anything else but P2W. I can see where this is going. Whats ultimately important here, CCP is defining themselves as a company. And establishing just how much trust and respect lies between Playerbase and Company. It fits between -----> <------- there.
Erik Finnegan Gallente Polytechnique Gallenteenne	Posted - 2011.07.03 23:30:00 - [21] Another definition post on FHC
AkJon Ferguson JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.03 23:54:00 - [22] You are very astute to highlight this paragraph of the CCP 'joint statement'. Unfortunately, you highlighted it for the wrong reason. (Or if for the right reason, you are far too long-winded.) "It is CCPæs plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only. There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store." Notice what it doesn't say: "It is CCPæs plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only. There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of non-vanity items or enhancements in the NeX store." It probably went something like this: Hilmar: Someone go to that bar that goon (mittens) likes to go to, get him drunk, tell him how irrelevant Fearless is, and tell him that the degree to which we work on all of the 0.0 improvements we promised him is dependent on him getting us out of this PR mess by signing off on whatever spin we settle on. Also, make sure he agrees to a man-love video with Zulu and that he's sober by the time it gets made. CC Peon: On my way, chief. Want to buy a monocle?
T'amber Anomandari Demaleon	Posted - 2011.07.06 05:17:00 - [23] Edited by: T''amber Anomandari Demaleon on 06/07/2011 05:17:56 Originally by: AkJon Ferguson You are very astute to highlight this paragraph of the CCP 'joint statement'. Unfortunately, you highlighted it for the wrong reason. (Or if for the right reason, you are far too long-winded.) "It is CCPæs plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only. There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store." Notice what it doesn't say: "It is CCPæs plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only. There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of non-vanity items or enhancements in the NeX store." It probably went something like this: Hilmar: Someone go to that bar that goon (mittens) likes to go to, get him drunk, tell him how irrelevant Fearless is, and tell him that the degree to which we work on all of the 0.0 improvements we promised him is dependent on him getting us out of this PR mess by signing off on whatever spin we settle on. Also, make sure he agrees to a man-love video with Zulu and that he's sober by the time it gets made. CC Peon: On my way, chief. ouch Originally by: Erik Finnegan Another definition post on FHC Yes, I was talking to evelgrivion as i made this post. Microtransactions? Click here and vote Yes, No or Cosmetic only
Florestan Bronstein draketrain	Posted - 2011.07.06 06:01:00 - [24] I prefer a clear distinction between "play-to-win" and "convience" MTs. Putting convenience MTs (like slots for storing ship fittings) into the vanity bracket seems counterproductive unless you want to see them in EVE.
Abdiel Kavash Caldari Paladin Order Fidelas Constans	Posted - 2011.07.06 07:48:00 - [25] Quote: It is CCPæs plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only. There are no plans, and have been no plans, as per previous communication and CSM meetings, to introduce the sale of game breaking items or enhancements in the NeX store. If we want to dig into semantics, the quote refers specifically to the NeX store. Nowhere does it say that CCP won't roll out another item exchange venue where they sell supercaps and skillpoints. ---
Tiven loves Tansien	Posted - 2011.07.06 08:38:00 - [26] Originally by: Tugrath Akers You probably think this thread is about you Don't you, don't you?
Khamelean	Posted - 2011.07.06 08:42:00 - [27] There is more than one paragraph about vanity items in that blog, as well as the last few blogs. Taken together they give a pretty clear message about CCP's intentions about non-vanity items. The message is NO.
Tiven loves Tansien	Posted - 2011.07.06 09:17:00 - [28] Originally by: Khamelean There is more than one paragraph about vanity items in that blog, as well as the last few blogs. Taken together they give a pretty clear message about CCP's intentions about non-vanity items. The message is NO. Their message was NO 1 year ago as well. But then again on Fearless their message is different. Tis all so confusing.. you know? Like women and mixed signals? Is CCP women?
Vain Eldritch Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2011.07.06 10:11:00 - [29] Edited by: Vain Eldritch on 06/07/2011 10:12:11 I like and espouse vanity. However, I'd be cautious about accepting at face value the idea that there will be no stat items in the NEx. Using phrases like "and unfair advantage" (emphasis mine) leaves several possible inclusions open. How do you define "unfair" in this context? For example, would it be "unfair" to sell SP on the NEx at a rate of one month training for one plex? ______________________________ Vanitas vanitatum omnia vanitas.
Lady Spank Amarr Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta	Posted - 2011.07.06 10:23:00 - [30] Feel free to rage quit again. This time over literally nothing. No one cared last time you did it and I doubt they will care this time either. ~~~

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