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Diesel47	Posted - 2011.07.23 07:25:00 - [31] Originally by: Nimrod Nemesis Did you pull those numbers out of your ass all by yourself or did you get someone to help? Hint: I bolded the important parts you might have missed. I can only assume you used a fail-fit overtanked drake for point of comparison. Hint: Think before you post. Double BCU and double Nano Drake with Two webs gets 55k EHP with 100 passive tank. [Drake, nano drake] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II Stasis Webifier II Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Small Energy Neutralizer II Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Warrior II x5 Here is the fit, 1. Put in EFT. 2. Invul overloaded (lasts 4min 30 seconds). 3. Congrats you've proven yourself an idiot. Originally by: Mfume Apocal My point was that in order to be viable against other BCs and as a solopwnboat, it has to sacrifice it's tank. A long point brick Drake can't hold anything it catches, a scram brick Drake can only get in range to apply it's scram rarely... unless it's a scram web Harb/Cane and while it probably wins that 1v1, it loses when his buddies land and he's still locked in. Maybe if you've read my post.. You wouldn't make this pointless argument. I clearly said a Drake with Skirmish Links. A drake with Skirmish links goes ~1500 m/s (somewhere near a GTFO-nano Cane) This Allows it to chase down said Cane and hold point long enough to kill. Anything slower than a Dual Nano cane will have no chance at escape. A drake with Skirmish links points out to 40kms, even if a ship is fast enough to know when to GTFO, it will have to travel 40kms to get out of the drakes DPS. A drake with Skirmish links is an excellent Kiter, its range will act as a counter to its slightly weaker tank. Heavies have the best damage projection, at kiting ranges DPS/EHP makes the drake a winner. Anything smaller than a BC can be dual webbed and 40km pointed.
Nimrod Nemesis Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2011.07.23 08:09:00 - [32] Edited by: Nimrod Nemesis on 23/07/2011 08:10:15 Originally by: Diesel47 Derp Good thing nothing could possibly hit your glorious EM hole, eh? herpderp, overloaded stats too. Amazing. What a useless ****-puppet you are.
Mfume Apocal Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.	Posted - 2011.07.23 08:31:00 - [33] Originally by: Diesel47 Maybe if you've read my post.. You wouldn't make this pointless argument. I clearly said a Drake with Skirmish Links. I ignored the issue of links because they are a two-way street... Quote: A drake with Skirmish links goes ~1500 m/s (somewhere near a GTFO-nano Cane) This Allows it to chase down said Cane and hold point long enough to kill. Anything slower than a Dual Nano cane will have no chance at escape. ...for example here. A 2 nano Drake with skirmish links goes 1500m/s, a 1 nano Cane with Skirmish links does 1750m/s (roughly, this is off the top of my head). If they both overheat the difference becomes even more pronounced, with the Cane having almost 400m/s advantage. Your point that a Skirmish linked Drake is very tough to handle for any other unlinked BC is certainly correct, but it's not the Drake you have a problem with, it's with links. Quote: A drake with Skirmish links is an excellent Kiter, its range will act as a counter to its slightly weaker tank. Heavies have the best damage projection, at kiting ranges DPS/EHP makes the drake a winner. Anything smaller than a BC can be dual webbed and 40km pointed. I never argued against the statement that the Drake was (overall) the best BC. But it's close enough and has enough disadvantages (hard to fit all that **** and still get a medium neut, HMLs mean competent long-point inties = death, etc.) that I can't call it overpowered. Especially not when you have other classes where there is basically one standout ship (Thrasher in destroyers, Rupture in cruisers, the Archon in carriers) with the rest struggling to justify their existence with, "well people underestimate you, so you can get more fights."
Nimrod Nemesis Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2011.07.23 08:46:00 - [34] Originally by: Mfume Apocal I never argued against the statement that the Drake was (overall) the best BC. But it's close enough and has enough disadvantages (hard to fit all that **** and still get a medium neut, HMLs mean competent long-point inties = death, etc.) that I can't call it overpowered. Especially not when you have other classes where there is basically one standout ship (Thrasher in destroyers, Rupture in cruisers, the Archon in carriers) with the rest struggling to justify their existence with, "well people underestimate you, so you can get more fights." Not empty quoting.
souhyeahright	Posted - 2011.07.23 08:58:00 - [35] Originally by: Mfume Apocal I never argued against the statement that the Drake was (overall) the best BC. But it's close enough and has enough disadvantages (hard to fit all that **** and still get a medium neut, HMLs mean competent long-point inties = death, etc.) that I can't call it overpowered. Why would a dualweb drake need a medium neut? On shieldcanes, they're primarily for shaking scramming frigates, which can't be tracked at close quarters. HMLs chew up dualwebbed frigates very effectively, so a medium neut is pretty much completely unneccessary. And calling it hard to fit is daft - with an invuln, it fits at AWU 0.
Nimrod Nemesis Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2011.07.23 09:10:00 - [36] Originally by: souhyeahright Originally by: Mfume Apocal I never argued against the statement that the Drake was (overall) the best BC. But it's close enough and has enough disadvantages (hard to fit all that **** and still get a medium neut, HMLs mean competent long-point inties = death, etc.) that I can't call it overpowered. Why would a dualweb drake need a medium neut? On shieldcanes, they're primarily for shaking scramming frigates, which can't be tracked at close quarters. HMLs chew up dualwebbed frigates very effectively, so a medium neut is pretty much completely unneccessary. And calling it hard to fit is daft - with an invuln, it fits at AWU 0. He clearly meant, hard to fit with a med neut. But, please continue this sperging where the last moron left off.
King Rothgar Path of the Fallen	Posted - 2011.07.23 15:42:00 - [37] The cerb is something I've tinkered with lately, works best with skirmish ganglink bonuses but should do ok on it's own too. It requires a 3% PG implant to fit unless you drop the neut. Idea here is to keep at near max point range. With a 45km missile range, it works best with a loki and a faction point. That way you can hang out at 35-40km safely. Not too many sub-BS ships can shoot back at those ranges and you'll be far faster than anything that can. It isn't the fastest ship in game but it's fast enough when combined with it's range advantage. Works pretty well for me. [Cerberus, solo] Damage Control II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Warp Disruptor II Magnetic Scattering Amplifier II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Terror Assault Missile Small Energy Neutralizer II Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Mfume Apocal Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.	Posted - 2011.07.23 18:30:00 - [38] Originally by: souhyeahright Why would a dualweb drake need a medium neut? On shieldcanes, they're primarily for shaking scramming frigates, which can't be tracked at close quarters. HMLs chew up dualwebbed frigates very effectively, so a medium neut is pretty much completely unneccessary. The most common situation I find myself wishing for a medium neut is when I've been bad/dumb and gotten scrammed by something substantial, like a plated Rupture. With a dual-neut nanocane, I could occasionally extract myself from my stupidity; with a nanodrake I drown in the flood of my own badness. The other case is active tanks like the Cyclone or double/triple rep Myrmidon. Typically, they engage on gate or station and I'm almost never able to break their tank solo. Even with two or three nanodrakes in gang it's an iffy proposition, especially with a triple rep Myrmidon. Quote: And calling it hard to fit is daft - with an invuln, it fits at AWU 0. I was referring to fitting a medium neut.
Diesel47	Posted - 2011.07.23 22:12:00 - [39] Originally by: Nimrod Nemesis He clearly meant, hard to fit with a med neut. But, please continue this sperging where the last moron left off. Post with your main. Coward.
Nimrod Nemesis Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2011.07.23 22:20:00 - [40] Originally by: Diesel47 Originally by: Nimrod Nemesis He clearly meant, hard to fit with a med neut. But, please continue this sperging where the last moron left off. Post with your main. Coward. Post with your alt. Idiot.

Mfume Apocal Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.	Posted - 2011.07.23 23:13:00 - [41] Originally by: King Rothgar The cerb is something I've tinkered with lately, works best with skirmish ganglink bonuses but should do ok on it's own too. How do you deal with tacklers, rigor/flare implants and Crash booster?
King Rothgar Path of the Fallen	Posted - 2011.07.24 00:34:00 - [42] Originally by: Mfume Apocal Originally by: King Rothgar The cerb is something I've tinkered with lately, works best with skirmish ganglink bonuses but should do ok on it's own too. How do you deal with tacklers, rigor/flare implants and Crash booster? Obviously you pick your targets. To be successful in pvp you must always be the attacker, never the defender. As such you pick what you fight and at what initial range. If you get jumped, you've already lost (barring massive stupidity on the part of your attacker). So with that in mind, you obviously won't be going after frigate hulls in a HAM spammer. I'd also steer clear of recons with it. BC's, HAC's and cruisers are the primary targets with that cerb fit. Against those, it's pretty much untouchable.
Mfume Apocal Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.	Posted - 2011.07.24 00:52:00 - [43] Edited by: Mfume Apocal on 24/07/2011 00:54:36 Originally by: King Rothgar Obviously you pick your targets. To be successful in pvp you must always be the attacker, never the defender. As such you pick what you fight and at what initial range. If you get jumped, you've already lost (barring massive stupidity on the part of your attacker). So with that in mind, you obviously won't be going after frigate hulls in a HAM spammer. I'd also steer clear of recons with it. BC's, HAC's and cruisers are the primary targets with that cerb fit. Against those, it's pretty much untouchable. I see. If it works for you, more power to you, I find myself in really, really bad situations in the name of getting more fights. So ability to kill tacklers and GTFO is very important for my playstyle.
Diesel47	Posted - 2011.07.24 06:05:00 - [44] Originally by: Mfume Apocal ...for example here. A 2 nano Drake with skirmish links goes 1500m/s, a 1 nano Cane with Skirmish links does 1750m/s (roughly, this is off the top of my head). If they both overheat the difference becomes even more pronounced, with the Cane having almost 400m/s advantage. Your point that a Skirmish linked Drake is very tough to handle for any other unlinked BC is certainly correct, but it's not the Drake you have a problem with, it's with links. While the stuff you said was correct, and I'll agree with most of it. I think you might of misunderstood my point. Maybe I didn't do a good enough job explaining it. Whatever, I'll re-explain.. What I meant was that a drake with skirmish links vs non-skirmish linked ships is much better than say... a hurricane w/ links. Basically my reasoning was that when a drake becomes fast and has a very long point... it becomes a monster for fighting larger numbers because it becomes such a good kiter. The excellent damage projection of heavies is to credit for that. A drake benefits greatly from having skirmish links (and I'd say even more than a hurricane does.) The 40km point is much more useful for the drake than a hurricane (assuming AC fit, even if artys DPS is too low for my liking.) Sure you could overload a scrambler on a cane and kite at 15kms... but that is still too close for comfort when he has friends around. I'd rather be at 35kms with a drake when fighting outnumbered. The speed IMO seems much better for a drake than a cane. One of the biggest disadvantages of drakes are their ****-poor speed (for good reason, if they were any faster they'd become the ultimate kiting race.) When you give a drake some speed it can do amazing things. On the other hand a Hurricane with more speed can just run better, or kite small gangs/solo enemies. I'd give the advantage to the drake. So what I was trying to say wasn't that "if you give a drake skirmish links it becomes the best/most OP BC." That doesn't make sense because like you said.. Anybody can use skirmish links. What I meant was "if you give a drake skirmish links, it improves exponentially. Where as other BCs with skirmish links do not fully utilize the benefits the way a drake can."

CCP Spitfire C C P C C P Alliance	Posted - 2011.07.24 06:11:00 - [45] Offtopic and insulting posts removed. Please keep the discussion in a civil and constructive way. Spitfire Community Representative CCP Hf, EVE Online

Mfume Apocal Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.	Posted - 2011.07.24 07:33:00 - [46] Originally by: Diesel47 What I meant was that a drake with skirmish links vs non-skirmish linked ships is much better than say... a hurricane w/ links. I see now. I respectfully disagree, but I can see the merits in your position.
BeachParty Caldari Semi Precious	Posted - 2011.07.24 18:17:00 - [47] Edited by: BeachParty on 24/07/2011 18:21:31 I PVP caldari and the thing that kills me is the battleships are horrific. Other than that a Pure Caldari gang could just about take any other pure racial gang straight up. Currently test driving the Navy Scorp.....
Diesel47	Posted - 2011.07.24 19:16:00 - [48] Originally by: Mfume Apocal Originally by: Diesel47 What I meant was that a drake with skirmish links vs non-skirmish linked ships is much better than say... a hurricane w/ links. I see now. I respectfully disagree, but I can see the merits in your position. Hmm alright. I'm curious.. What do you suggest would be better for a skirmish gang fighting larger numbers. (in the BC category ofc.)
Exploited Engineer	Posted - 2011.07.24 20:51:00 - [49] Originally by: BeachParty Edited by: BeachParty on 24/07/2011 18:21:31I PVP caldari and the thing that kills me is the battleships are horrific. Well, yeah. Other than the Scorpion (as an ECM boat), they're either PvE beasts (Raven/CNR/SNR) or just curiosities (Rokh).
Mfume Apocal Minmatar Origin. Black Legion.	Posted - 2011.07.24 22:50:00 - [50] Originally by: Diesel47 Hmm alright. I'm curious.. What do you suggest would be better for a skirmish gang fighting larger numbers. (in the BC category ofc.) Well when you say gang, especially past three or four, certainly the Drake. But if you're running around solo/duo the Cane is (IMHO) a better choice due to it's higher DPS; you can gank the bait faster and still retain a very strong ability to kill tacklers.

Ivelios d'Sanquine	Posted - 2011.07.25 08:21:00 - [51] Edited by: Ivelios d''Sanquine on 25/07/2011 08:22:27 all races can pvp, some might be more popular then other but that doesn't mean that the others are bad. the most important thing u got to remember is to pick your fights, weather in high, low, null or wh u gotta pick your fights. I have seen good pvp'ers in awesome ship die so don't think that skillpoints and the "right race" (insert racist joke here) is the way to win. If u go solo there are things that u need to be aware of when flying caldari, first some of the ship u can fly will not do as well as other races ship in the same class in a standar brawl. A thorax/vexor/ruppture/arbi will take out a caracal or moa in a slugfest but that dosent mean u cannot win, do a kiting settup with the caracal or simply avoid the fight. as for the BS i agree too that they suck for solo work aswell but both the drake and merlin is awsome when it comes to that not to mention that the cruisers can still be used even thou they are not slug fest material. nothing is fair in eve, some have more SP, others more isk and some better ships. pick your fights and u will be fine. Btw did i mention that u should pick your fight?
NoLimit Soldier	Posted - 2011.07.25 13:40:00 - [52] Originally by: Diesel47 Agree w/ almost everything besides the web merlin not having enough EHP/DPS to kill things. You are not flying them correctly. You are welcome to come show me, but all other things (skill included) being equal: I would bet the money on the SAR web rifter. Originally by: Diesel47 Scorp is not the "EXACT SAME THING" as a blackbird. It has considerable more jamming range which makes it the ultimate ECM ship. It comes in at 125kms optimal and jams every rook, falcon, and BB on the field because of range. Blackbird = 10% optimal, Scorpion = 20% optimal. Sorry I meant EXACT SAME IDEA. As for jamming all the rooks/falcons/blackbirds, that is a hyperbole. Originally by: Diesel47 Hmm alright. I'm curious.. What do you suggest would be better for a skirmish gang fighting larger numbers. (in the BC category ofc.) I agree with the other guy, It's canes. While toe to toe, your gang drives him off, his has AN INSANELY larger engagement profile. Some one has never had their vagabond/100mn tengu chased by skirmish link boosted canes. It isn't fun. Neuts suck to be on the other side of. Will you link the battle report of your skirmish drakes fights? I'm curious.
Diesel47	Posted - 2011.07.25 15:03:00 - [53] Originally by: NoLimit Soldier You are welcome to come show me, but all other things (skill included) being equal: I would bet the money on the SAR web rifter. Some one has never had their vagabond/100mn tengu chased by skirmish link boosted canes. It isn't fun. Neuts suck to be on the other side of. Will you link the battle report of your skirmish drakes fights? I'm curious. Sure I'll fight your SAR rifter. Well to be fair. If a Vaga has skirmish links like the Cane does... the Cane will never catch up. For the tengu (w/ skirmish links) it would depend on if the tengu pilot has a nano/overdrive or not. Then he can overload his afterburner for 12 minutes straight (tengu op) and be slightly faster than the hurricane. I've never done the skirmish drake before myself. I've watched a good friend of mine demolish a BC/T3/Cruiser gang with 6 drakes. If you REALLY want to see it in action... go download "everlasting" by Kovorix. He and his buddy do a duo of skirmish drakes and end up killing two canes, one myrm, a BB, and a mega. I'm not sure if they could of done the same with another BC.. It is something I'm going to try for sure sometime in the future.
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2011.07.25 18:12:00 - [54] Originally by: NoLimit Soldier Will you link the battle report of your skirmish drakes fights? I'm curious. Skirmish drakes We were fighting in a FW plex, which meant once the falcon was forced off field (fairly early) he was not able to warp back in since he'd have to gate in at a spot where the enemy gang was. For the 4 minutes we had some ewar support, and then for about 12 minutes after that it was just a few drakes. I've got other battle report links with just 2 drakes (they can do amazing things) but related kills tend to be cluttered with other fights etc. Small gang wise, IMO nothing compares to the damage projection of the drake. And it matters a lot when fighting a larger force for this reason: You get primaried, you burn out of range, and most of the time you can still stay on the field applying dps instead of warping away. Bonus when the fight drags on a bit and your shields recharge, you can swoop back in and continue pointing.
Diesel47	Posted - 2011.07.25 18:55:00 - [55] Edited by: Diesel47 on 25/07/2011 19:09:06 Originally by: chatgris Originally by: NoLimit Soldier Will you link the battle report of your skirmish drakes fights? I'm curious. Skirmish drakes We were fighting in a FW plex, which meant once the falcon was forced off field (fairly early) he was not able to warp back in since he'd have to gate in at a spot where the enemy gang was. For the 4 minutes we had some ewar support, and then for about 12 minutes after that it was just a few drakes. I've got other battle report links with just 2 drakes (they can do amazing things) but related kills tend to be cluttered with other fights etc. Small gang wise, IMO nothing compares to the damage projection of the drake. And it matters a lot when fighting a larger force for this reason: You get primaried, you burn out of range, and most of the time you can still stay on the field applying dps instead of warping away. Bonus when the fight drags on a bit and your shields recharge, you can swoop back in and continue pointing. Yeah, basically why the drakes > hurricane when fighting big gangs/larger numbers. Question.. What did the FC primary first in that battle? The enemy drakes?
Bloutok	Posted - 2011.07.25 19:01:00 - [56] I have been on the receiving end of Chatgris nanofleet. All i will say about it is it works. Hey, wait... i can fly with you now
NoLimit Soldier	Posted - 2011.07.25 19:19:00 - [57] Originally by: chatgris Originally by: NoLimit Soldier Will you link the battle report of your skirmish drakes fights? I'm curious. Skirmish drakes We were fighting in a FW plex, which meant once the falcon was forced off field (fairly early) he was not able to warp back in since he'd have to gate in at a spot where the enemy gang was. For the 4 minutes we had some ewar support, and then for about 12 minutes after that it was just a few drakes. I've got other battle report links with just 2 drakes (they can do amazing things) but related kills tend to be cluttered with other fights etc. Small gang wise, IMO nothing compares to the damage projection of the drake. And it matters a lot when fighting a larger force for this reason: You get primaried, you burn out of range, and most of the time you can still stay on the field applying dps instead of warping away. Bonus when the fight drags on a bit and your shields recharge, you can swoop back in and continue pointing. A 2.5 hour battle report against people not even in the same corp. (anyone who can read time stamps can see that isn't fleet vs fleet) (I'm just kinda trolling you on that one, the fleet does "work" but still I will always fear canes over drakes any day)
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2011.07.25 19:21:00 - [58] Edited by: chatgris on 25/07/2011 19:26:37 Originally by: Diesel47 Question.. What did the FC primary first in that battle? The enemy drakes? I think I actually primaried the vaga's first. I know they don't do much dps, but at the start of that battle we were burning away from the main enemy fleet, and only the faster stuff could keep up with us and we killed that first. Originally by: Bloutok I have been on the receiving end of Chatgris nanofleet. All i will say about it is it works. Hey, wait... i can fly with you now You've joined the gal mil? I'm a bit out of the loop now, rl keeping me busy. If you did join the gal mil, give it a few weeks and I should be back to playing again, more than happy to have you fly with me. I love flying with ex-opponents, always interesting to talk to the other side.
Theodoric Darkwind Gallente PonyWaffe	Posted - 2011.07.25 19:45:00 - [59] Most of the caldari T2 frigates and cruisers are quite effective in pvp. Drake, Merlin, Blackbird and Griffin are plenty viable in pvp among their T1 ships and the Scorpion is the undisputed king of EWAR.
chatgris Quantum Cats Syndicate	Posted - 2011.07.25 20:19:00 - [60] Edited by: chatgris on 25/07/2011 20:29:49 Originally by: NoLimit Soldier A 2.5 hour battle report against people not even in the same corp. (anyone who can read time stamps can see that isn't fleet vs fleet) 2.5 hours? Where did you get that? The actual fight lasted for about 20-30 minutes. Looking through the mails, the only kill I got that wasn't part of the fleet fight was this kill here, when I started 1v1 people in local. I have a vague recollection of catching a myrm on a gate then running from the blob before the main fight in the plex, but still that's only two kills out of the whole group that wasn't part of the one fight on one grid (and a myrm on a gate is valid if you're chasing the fleet and ganking stragglers). http://gallente.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=8394837 And the loss I took was when I screwed up and a cane got a scram on me - again, 1v1ing. Everything else was the one fight that lasted about 20-30 minutes in a major (restricted) plex in Huola. There was actually more on field from the enemy than shows up on the killboard since we didn't lose much. And how fast do you think drakes can chew through enemies anyways? A lot of the stuff we spent time shooting at managed to escape etc. If you are heavily outnumbered, the enemy can turn back into their own group that heavily outnumbers you and you cannot give chase. Originally by: NoLimit Soldier (I'm just kinda trolling you on that one, the fleet does "work" but still I will always fear canes over drakes any day) I don't. Here's a canes vs. drakes fight http://bluerep.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=9506552 (again, so few losses that the entire size of their fleet isn't represented, but it's close. and the rvb guys talking about the fight: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1501382 If you go to around page 2 IIRC is where my guys started noticing the thread - it wasn't ECM that won that fight at all, it was damage projection. I fight against the caldari militia who have LOTS of falcons all the time. The only time I fear a cane is in a 1v1 situation if I screw up webbing them before they land a scram... otherwise, once it's 2v2 IMO canes are heavily outclassed up until you have maybe 30-40 in fleet and you really start to feel missile flight time (and only then if it's arty canes).



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