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Earl Comstock
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2011.07.28 22:36:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Milan Nantucket
Salvage law has as a basis that a salvor should be rewarded for risking his life and property to rescue the property of another from peril.
Salvagers risk life and property?
Originally by: Milan Nantucket
Wreck removal focuses on the removal of hazardous or unsightly wrecks that have little or no salvage value.
Eve wrecks have little or no value?
If you're going to try and compare RL to EvE to make a point, or worse correct someone else who is doing so, make sure your quotes are favorable to your position.
The people that do are in two pretty broad groups.
1. People who feel they are being stolen from. They did the work to turn the rat into a wreck, and feel the wreck belongs to them.
2. People who want their money-for-nothing scheme to stay risk-free.
It's hard to sympathize at all with the latter.
I don't care what CCP does with salvage.
If they change it, fine. Rewards need risk. If they don't, fine. I'll continue to just destroy wrecks if a 'ninja' shows up in the mission.
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Brusanan
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
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Posted - 2011.07.28 23:45:00 -
[32]
I didn't read the op, but I assume you are asking for CCP to make salvaging pull aggro like every other crying mission runner who made this exact same thread before you.
If CCP did that, the only thing that would change is you would lose your mission boat on top of your salvage. Ninjas will still steal your salvage as they do now, and you will let them do it just like you are forced to do now. Even if you are dumb enough to shoot them once, you won't do it again after you lose your mission boat anyway. A change to the mechanic won't help you at all.
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Rutilus Pallium
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Posted - 2011.07.29 01:12:00 -
[33]
I will approve of this ONLY IF all wrecks are made blue so that they can be tractored by anyone.
That would make for some amusing conversations in local when everyone is jacking everyone else's loot in remote-repped Noctis and marauders.
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Earl Comstock
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2011.07.29 03:21:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Brusanan
I didn't read the op, but I assume you are asking for CCP to make salvaging pull aggro like every other crying mission runner who made this exact same thread before you.
If CCP did that, the only thing that would change is you would lose your mission boat on top of your salvage. Ninjas will still steal your salvage as they do now, and you will let them do it just like you are forced to do now. Even if you are dumb enough to shoot them once, you won't do it again after you lose your mission boat anyway. A change to the mechanic won't help you at all.
If this were true then all these bad-*** ninjas would be looting, in addition to salvaging. They aren't. Wonder why that is.
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Rutilus Pallium
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Posted - 2011.07.29 03:41:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Earl Comstock
If this were true then all these bad-*** ninjas would be looting, in addition to salvaging. They aren't. Wonder why that is.
No point looting something that's not worth stealing. Most loot is meta 1/2 crap that's not worth the limited cargospace in a ninja frigate.
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Takashi X2
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Posted - 2011.07.29 06:44:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Finishline
Dear CCP,
On behalf of all of the mission runners who like to fly with our own dedicated salvagers, I'd like to request a change to the game mechanics regarding salvaging of wrecks. Before you go "oh no, not another thread on this.", there's more to my question than just a complaint.
I'm not sure if you have previously addressed the logic behind it. I, for one, do not see how ninja salvaging a wreck is any different from ninja looting the cargo hold of a wreck - the perpetrator is still stealing from the wreck owner. I understand that you have "repeatedly stated that Ninja Salvaging is considered an official mini-profession and the game mechanics that allow it are working as-designed." (taken from the wiki page on Ninja Salvagers - http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ninja_Salvaging), however I fail to understand how there is any difference?
You were willing to make changes to the game in regards to the controversial learning skills (changes which I strongly disagreed with, but obviously you can't please everyone). Why not look into changing the game mechanics around ninja salvaging? How about something along the lines of, if they're not salvaged within half an hour, they're automatically abandoned? This would give practically everyone some satisfaction. Wreck owners have ample time to salvage. And independant salvagers can still scan down sites and legitimately salvage without receiving the usual insults through local, and hence, make a profit without actually needing to kill the mission rats. And ninja salvagers... well... if their only goal is to annoy the mission runners, then there's still always the option of suicide ganking. Or they can try and come up with something more creative.
I understand that you probably won't agree with this proposal, or any other suggestions that we have - there's some work involved in implementing it to be sure - but I'll hope you'll at least try and answer the question on why ninja salvaging and ninja looting are treated seperately.
Kind regards,
Finishline
Radiant Force
The problem here is simply. You're stealing from the people who you killed. You loot thier stuff. The loot mechanic is the broken one, not the salvaging one. If you blow up someone's ship (yes npcs count), the loot and salvage should belong to them pure and simple. Its still their stuff even though its in tatters.
If you really wanted to fix a broken mechanic fix, request a fix to the loot mechanic.
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Zixie Draco
The Queue
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2011.07.29 14:08:00 -
[37]
+3 kittens for OP
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Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.07.29 17:10:00 -
[38]
Want a made-up explanation, just as good as any made-up counter-explanation you can come up with?
Loot is created when the NPC is killed. It "belongs" to the person who killed the NPC.
Salvage is created when the wreck is salvaged. It "belongs" to the person who salvaged the wreck.
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Julia Venatrix
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Posted - 2011.07.30 09:17:00 -
[39]
Pleeeeeeeeease flag salvagers as well as looters.
Help industrialists and miners!
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Some days you are the pigeon, and some the statue. |
Brusanan
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
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Posted - 2011.07.30 16:01:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Julia Venatrix
Pleeeeeeeeease flag salvagers as well as looters.
Help industrialists and miners!
I still don't know what industrialists and mission runners think they are going to be able to do to salvagers. If you are itching to shoot them like you claim, this mechanic would work overwhelmingly in their favor.
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Tarsas Phage
Gank Bangers
Moar Tears
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Posted - 2011.07.30 17:41:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Brusanan
I still don't know what industrialists and mission runners think they are going to be able to do to salvagers. If you are itching to shoot them like you claim, this mechanic would work overwhelmingly in their favor.
^^. I wonder as well. Nine times out of ten, whenever I steal loot, I get no response from the typical PvE'er... so, I too don't think that stealing salvage would incite many of them go run back to station tp hop in their finest PvP ship in order to avenge the unjust loss of 1 metal scrap and a tangled power conduit. 
With the many BUFFS that PvE in eve has gotten over the past 3 expansions, it's pretty silly that people are complaining about how they're convinced that wrecks which are salvaged out from under them are a BFD.
Lets see, you can run in an Incursion Vanguard fleet and make 10 mil every 10 minutes, if not more, with pretty low risk. You now have easier access to higher level mission agents and get max LP payouts in highsec easily by going to any level 4 agent in a 0.5 system and training 1 skill in Social instead of two. You have a good source of passive income from PI, perhaps reacting P3->P4 products and you don't need to skill into exhumers for that. More expensive items are now on the market (faction ships) to give you more fodder for your trade skills.
Speaking of trade skills, it takes no market scientist to realize that one can buy rig mats off the market, make rigs from a easily-researched BPO (oh noes, you might have to train Prod. Efficiency 5) and sell said rigs at a tidy profit.
But, yet, whiners will still whine about salvage and how they're being cheated out of heaps of income if they don't get to it first, and my bet is that the incident that spurs these sorts of complaints happen relatively rarely rather than consistently. Get real.
/T
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Max Keitt Keitt
Amarr
Viziam
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Posted - 2011.07.30 19:48:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Ifly Uwalk
Oh no, not another thread on this.
~+=+~
TQ Power Supplies
Learning to PVP |
Yekiss
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.07.30 21:00:00 -
[43]
Oh no, not another thread on this ...
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Brink Albosa
Minmatar
CHG Militants Operations
The 0rphanage
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Posted - 2011.07.31 01:48:00 -
[44]
Do Ninja Salvagers make you mad bro? I never did it with the intent of getting rich, but to have you and your fellow mission runner's human reaction is and always will be priceless.
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Ildryn
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Posted - 2011.07.31 09:40:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Soi Mala
Regardless of GAME mechanics, the theory behind the whole "loot is owned, salvage is not" seems a bit ******ed...
Can you imagine wrenching a famous ship like the Mary Rose or titanic from the deep (regardless of where they lie), all the while screaming "ITS OK BECAUSE WE AREN'T TAKING ANY OF THE CARGO"
Whats that? You crashed your car? Lemme just get those panels, bumpers and windows brah, but don't worry i won't touch the stereo.
I know, comparing eve to RL is lame etc etc... But the idea that a wreck and it's contents are 2 separate things is ridiculous.
Personally I don't think the wreck OR the loot should be owned, most of the time you're in a deadspace pocket, free to salvage alone for the most part anyway.
Because the planet earth has any real relation to outer space. Right?
Wreck your car and the scrap belongs to you or the insurance company. While you are finding out if that is true or not call NASA and ask if they give a **** if you get into orbit and harvest the space junk that is currently around earth.
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Istyn
Tactical Knightmare
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2011.07.31 11:08:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Finishline
I understand that you probably won't agree with this proposal, or any other suggestions that we have - there's some work involved in implementing it to be sure - but I'll hope you'll at least try and answer the question on why ninja salvaging and ninja looting are treated seperately.
I agree, my internet brethren. These scourges on our missions must be eliminated!
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Nerath Naaris
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Posted - 2011.07.31 12:39:00 -
[47]
I have run quite a few missions in the nine months I play this game and have never been ninja¦d.
OP, you apparently have been, so you are fail.
You might want to think about that (at least this will hopefully keep you away from the forums).
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Queue K'Umber
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Posted - 2011.07.31 12:45:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Nerath Naaris
I have run quite a few missions in the nine months I play this game and have never been ninja¦d.
OP, you apparently have been, so you are fail.
You might want to think about that (at least this will hopefully keep you away from the forums).
There is no chance that any readers of this topic will employ a locator agent, probe you out and enter whatever mission you happen to be running now that you have revealed yourself.
Guard your wrecked heron well.
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Istyn
Tactical Knightmare
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2011.07.31 13:14:00 -
[49]
He could just be running level 1s.
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Queue K'Umber
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Posted - 2011.07.31 13:23:00 -
[50]
True.
I have not verified his character age or other public info.
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Nerath Naaris
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Posted - 2011.07.31 18:16:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Queue K'Umber
There is no chance that any readers of this topic will employ a locator agent, probe you out and enter whatever mission you happen to be running now that you have revealed yourself.
Guard your wrecked heron well.
Perhaps, but after I have outed myself here this really would prove nothing.
The point is, mission away from the major systems and you should be quite safe....
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Awoxina Dojona
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Posted - 2011.08.01 17:35:00 -
[52]
Dear Carebears.
Thank you for the fappable material, your tears are juicy.
heres the problem, which you DONT want.
By turning salvage into aggro for Ninjas, we will have even more opportunity to turn YOU into salvage, as there are a lot of us who beg for just that.... MR's to shoot us so we can come back and turn them into shredded dust.
think about it.
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Qorra Djembe
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Posted - 2011.08.01 18:16:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Finishline
... but obviously you can't please everyone ...
Quit complaining and take what CCP gives you. |
Cerisia
Lone Star enterprises
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Posted - 2011.08.03 04:58:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Yekiss
Oh no, not another thread on this ...
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2011.08.03 05:01:00 -
[55]
Always assumed stealing from missionrunners and/or salvaging their wrecks would be a dying profession. Marauders, people learn, bounty/LP being worth more than loot, etc.. but hey, I guess there's still idiots out there. Maybe I should start flip their cans too?
..oh crap, it was just a troll thread. Phew, good on me, was too lazy to try do something anyway.
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Aggressive Nutmeg
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Posted - 2011.08.03 07:28:00 -
[56]
Whether I'm mining or mission running, I either salvage each wreck on the spot or blow it up if I don't have time.
Nobody gets my wrecks. Play on. 
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Thatsbecause
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Posted - 2011.08.04 00:58:00 -
[57]
From an RP perspective:
You can consider wrecks "yours" or "public" or whoever, but what matters here is how CONCORD draws the line of property and ownership, as they're the ones actually enforcing the law and allowing (or disallowing (and by that I mean reacting violently to)) you to shoot players who steal from you. CONCORD may see intact and valuable modules as being owned by the ship that destroyed the rat/GCCplayer/CONCORD sanctioned war-target/etc unless abandoned, and they look at the twisted wrecks left after a battle as unclaimed property that is claimed by special salvaging modules in the hands of a properly skilled pilot. Maybe one reason that CONCORD wants to allow anyone salvage any wrecks is to encourage the wrecks to be salvaged, CONCORD may find spacejunk piling up at certain places troublesome.
This isn't too wild of an idea, as authorities like churches and governments, or anyone with sufficient public support and force, have changed the property/ownership laws that they have enforced throughout human history. |
bushwacka
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Posted - 2011.08.04 02:46:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Kumq uat
Please please PLEASE for the love of all that is holy make ninja salvagers flashy red. I will have to figure out how to fit a salvager on to my Loki!
screw this, make ninjas flashy for just entering the mission. would save me the trouble of actually flying to a wreck and steal some crap to get aggro
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Miles Parabellum
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Posted - 2011.08.04 08:18:00 -
[59]
Originally by: bushwacka
screw this, make ninjas flashy for just entering the mission. would save me the trouble of actually flying to a wreck and steal some crap to get aggro
If this was implemented, I'd probably go back to mission baiting for a couple of weeks while the whole ninja community went nuts.
... I'd also settle for just flagging people who salvage "my" wrecks.
Having tried both ninjaing and baiting, I have to say that ninja tears are tastier (although rarer).
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pussnheels
Amarr
Vintage heavy industries
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Posted - 2011.08.04 08:18:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Finishline
Dear CCP,
On behalf of all of the mission runners who like to fly with our own dedicated salvagers, I'd like to request a change to the game mechanics regarding salvaging of wrecks. Before you go "oh no, not another thread on this.", there's more to my question than just a complaint.
I'm not sure if you have previously addressed the logic behind it. I, for one, do not see how ninja salvaging a wreck is any different from ninja looting the cargo hold of a wreck - the perpetrator is still stealing from the wreck owner. I understand that you have "repeatedly stated that Ninja Salvaging is considered an official mini-profession and the game mechanics that allow it are working as-designed." (taken from the wiki page on Ninja Salvagers - http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Ninja_Salvaging), however I fail to understand how there is any difference?
You were willing to make changes to the game in regards to the controversial learning skills (changes which I strongly disagreed with, but obviously you can't please everyone). Why not look into changing the game mechanics around ninja salvaging? How about something along the lines of, if they're not salvaged within half an hour, they're automatically abandoned? This would give practically everyone some satisfaction. Wreck owners have ample time to salvage. And independant salvagers can still scan down sites and legitimately salvage without receiving the usual insults through local, and hence, make a profit without actually needing to kill the mission rats. And ninja salvagers... well... if their only goal is to annoy the mission runners, then there's still always the option of suicide ganking. Or they can try and come up with something more creative.
I understand that you probably won't agree with this proposal, or any other suggestions that we have - there's some work involved in implementing it to be sure - but I'll hope you'll at least try and answer the question on why ninja salvaging and ninja looting are treated seperately.
Kind regards,
Finishline
Radiant Force
As a missionrunner myself i apologise to the people of c&p for the OP
All because a ninja salvager takes a few wrecks from them they scream **** and murder and demand ccp change the gamemechanics
To be honest , most mission runners are so lazy and shortsighted i sometimes am ashamed to call my self a mission runner
The solution dear op is this
1 open your new agent finder
2 find a new agent of the lvl you want , make sure he is more than 5 jumps away from any major trading or mission hub
.. yes this means you have to travel more than 5 jumps to sell your loot/ buy our ammo, work for your money
there are plenty of high lvl agents in systems that are considerd backwater systems and have a average population of 10 to 30 people during peek time , stop being lazy and do your research
in short stay away from major mission/ trade hubs if you want a safer system to run missions in ( there even lvl 4 agents in low sec where almost nobody ever passes thru
And if you really can't stand people stealing a few wrecks from you .....then i guess this is the wrong game for you
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God knows everything but a true amarrian knows everything even better |
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