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Moghydin
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.07.31 20:11:00 -
[1]
And yet again CCP fails in balancing things. From being totally useless pieces of junk they made faction ships into unbeatable pwnmobiles that make T2 virtually obsolete. Is there a chance of them being balanced correctly at some point?
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Ammzi
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Posted - 2011.07.31 20:46:00 -
[2]
No! Don't touch my nightmare, I love it <3
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Ai Mei
Starfish Operating Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.31 20:47:00 -
[3]
Let me edumacate you on the proper countermeasures to new faction ships.
Step 1, recognize all of them are gun boats except for the guristas ones.
Step 2, train amarr cruiser 5
step 3, train recons ships
step 4, attack with a lot of curses
step 5 ???????????
step 6 win.
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Suitonia
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.07.31 20:54:00 -
[4]
Too bad nothing ever engages a solo Curse unless they know they can kill it. I.e. ship with Nosferatu or Scram HAM drake.
---
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Ai Mei
Starfish Operating Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.07.31 21:40:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Suitonia
Too bad nothing ever engages a solo Curse unless they know they can kill it. I.e. ship with Nosferatu or Scram HAM drake.
I will admit that no one will engage a curse unless they are in a missile or drone boat. but remember curse neuts can go from 29-37 km depending if they faction fit it or not. But a corpum a-type nos is win.
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Hwong Jian
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Posted - 2011.07.31 21:43:00 -
[6]
T2 neuts go 37.5km. They'll also suck your cap dry faster than the NeX with your wallet.
Oooo. Can that become a new saying? Where something happens faster than CCP can snatch away your cash?
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Tsukimaru
Amarr
Stargate SG-1
Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.07.31 21:49:00 -
[7]
Why would you want to make some of the most expensive ships in the game even easier to kill? Noone would every fly them.
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Pim Tocker
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Posted - 2011.07.31 21:52:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Moghydin
And yet again CCP fails in balancing things. From being totally useless pieces of junk they made faction ships into unbeatable pwnmobiles that make T2 virtually obsolete. Is there a chance of them being balanced correctly at some point?
I'm like  what! I'm usually pretty clueless about what CCP is up to before it's too late (I blame only myself), but does this mean I got horribly b**f**ed (again) when I sold off my Nightmare? And my remaining faction ships are still really useless pieces of junk. (navy faction) Wrong faction?
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Moghydin
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.07.31 21:55:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Tsukimaru
Why would you want to make some of the most expensive ships in the game even easier to kill? Noone would every fly them.
May be because the game should be a bit more about skill than blindly pumping ISK into something for auto-win.
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Tsukimaru
Amarr
Stargate SG-1
Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.07.31 21:56:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Moghydin
Originally by: Tsukimaru
Why would you want to make some of the most expensive ships in the game even easier to kill? Noone would every fly them.
May be because the game should be a bit more about skill than blindly pumping ISK into something for auto-win.
Right, like it takes skill to blob something with cheap T1 junk.
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Mina Sebiestar
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Posted - 2011.07.31 21:58:00 -
[11]
i would choose vargur instead of faction tempest any day of the week for pve.
i would choose maelstrom instead of faction tempest any day of the week for pvp.
if that isn't definition of fail ship i don't know what is.
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Bart Starr
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Posted - 2011.07.31 22:24:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Moghydin
And yet again CCP fails in balancing things. From being totally useless pieces of junk they made faction ships into unbeatable pwnmobiles that make T2 virtually obsolete. Is there a chance of them being balanced correctly at some point?
WHY, Mogyhdin, WHY are you trying to nerf my Fleet Scythe? Its a mini-Typhoon you know. Its 'versatile'. 
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Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
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Posted - 2011.07.31 23:06:00 -
[13]
Only the angel ships need changing, and even then they only need a very slight tweak.
HTFU
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MissingNo1
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Posted - 2011.07.31 23:43:00 -
[14]
Edited by: MissingNo1 on 31/07/2011 23:44:34
Originally by: Soi Mala
Only the angel ships need changing, and even then they only need a very slight tweak.
HTFU
Don't you dare touch my machariel---S---!! :P
ninja edit - Leave the bonuses as they are, Change it's agility though, way too fast for a ship that is nearly the same size as a chimera!!
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Ehdward
Caldari
Nex Exercitus
Raiden.
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Posted - 2011.07.31 23:58:00 -
[15]
Nerf navy Ospreys.
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Fademist
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Posted - 2011.08.01 01:13:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Mina Sebiestar
i would choose vargur instead of faction tempest any day of the week for pve.
i would choose maelstrom instead of faction tempest any day of the week for pvp.
if that isn't definition of fail ship i don't know what is.
then u dont know how to fly a faction tempest...
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Raigir
Frontier Explorer's League
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Posted - 2011.08.01 03:24:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Tsukimaru
Originally by: Moghydin
Originally by: Tsukimaru
Why would you want to make some of the most expensive ships in the game even easier to kill? Noone would every fly them.
May be because the game should be a bit more about skill than blindly pumping ISK into something for auto-win.
Right, like it takes skill to blob something with cheap T1 junk.
Indeed.
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=13914935
Unfortunatly my little thrasher poofed before I got on the killmail  .
Faction ships don't need much balancing from their current stand point. The angels ships have a deserving nerf headed their way and thats to be expected, but in general even post nerf all faction ships have their neat little niche that they can fill i.e. bhaalgorn = anti capital, vigilants = cool tackles, macherial = pope mobile of nano ships.
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space rush
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Posted - 2011.08.01 03:35:00 -
[18]
hate to bust your bubble but it seems you dont understand a thing about faction ships. 1 they should be stronger as they are the best of two races.
2 you get what you pay for. 3 its not about balance its about skill.
i would suggest buying one because from your rant it seems you dont own one.
once you buy one im sure you will retract this thread. and yes they are well worth the money...cough cough nightmare FTW
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Borun Tal
Minmatar
Just Abide
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Posted - 2011.08.01 03:49:00 -
[19]
Nothing wrong with faction ships. Thanks for playing.
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Mina Sebiestar
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Posted - 2011.08.01 04:02:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Fademist
Originally by: Mina Sebiestar
i would choose vargur instead of faction tempest any day of the week for pve.
i would choose maelstrom instead of faction tempest any day of the week for pvp.
if that isn't definition of fail ship i don't know what is.
then u dont know how to fly a faction tempest...
Right well i am happy you are enlightened.
go pro go.
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Large Collidable Object
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Posted - 2011.08.01 04:28:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Mina Sebiestar
i would choose vargur instead of faction tempest any day of the week for pve.
i would choose maelstrom instead of faction tempest any day of the week for pvp.
if that isn't definition of fail ship i don't know what is.
So what? I probably would as well...
- Vargur is more skill intense and costs twice as much - and it's more effective in pve than a fleet pest on top of that? How dare they?
- Mael is fully insurable, which is quite an advantage in pvp if isk is an issue, so...
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Lakuma
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Posted - 2011.08.01 04:30:00 -
[22]
Considering faction ships are designed to dish out alot of damage...and as faction items aren't easily accessible to most players (directly)...and thus are expensive...I'd say they are by and large working as intended.
Dramiels are getting nerfed some - CCP has already confirmed that for the winter expansion, along with supercaps getting balanced.
T2's are hardly obsolete to faction ships - the assault variants perhaps, since they too are dmg-oriented only. But considering the tier 2 hulls are primarily niche-oriented, I'd say they aren't obsolete at all.
Now if you're talking Faction Warfare - yeah, pirate ships are a pretty big problem since most players can't afford to lose those on a daily basis and they for the most part severely overpower tech 1 and navy ships (by virtue of being cheaper/easier to get). The proposal there has been that since pirate factions aren't in FW, pirate ships shouldn't be either (in the complexes), this removal would help PvP flourish a little more in FW.
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Mina Sebiestar
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Posted - 2011.08.01 04:46:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Large Collidable Object
Originally by: Mina Sebiestar
i would choose vargur instead of faction tempest any day of the week for pve.
i would choose maelstrom instead of faction tempest any day of the week for pvp.
if that isn't definition of fail ship i don't know what is.
So what? I probably would as well...
- Vargur is more skill intense and costs twice as much - and it's more effective in pve than a fleet pest on top of that? How dare they?
- Mael is fully insurable, which is quite an advantage in pvp if isk is an issue, so...
So op is full of it...yes no maybe.
it is not just that mael is insurable fleet pest cant offer anything for its price.
to put it simple anything that pest can do mael/phoon(regular or faction) can do better.
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Makar Kravchenko
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Posted - 2011.08.01 04:47:00 -
[24]
Angel ships. LOL. The glass cannons of eve. Scram, Webs, and Neuts kill dramiel, cynabal, and machariel. Each pirate faction ship is fine. But they are not meant to be win button. They each fit certain tactics. Fly them to the tactic and they are nice. Fly them the wrong way and they suck. Me thinks bro died too many times and is mad. |
Large Collidable Object
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Posted - 2011.08.01 04:55:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Mina Sebiestar
So op is full of it...yes no maybe.
it is not just that mael is insurable fleet pest cant offer anything for its price.
to put it simple anything that pest can do mael/phoon(regular or faction) can do better.
I think he's referring to pirate faction - navy faction is so irrelevant these days, many people forget they even exist when they talk about faction...
But then - flying pirate faction is more skill intense than navy faction and pirate LP are more tedious and risky to obtain than getting bazillions of empire faction LP running FW missions in a stealthbomber, AFKing L4s in highsec or just doing invention (Marauders), so the better performance (and higher price) is justified in my eyes.
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Mina Sebiestar
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Posted - 2011.08.01 05:01:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Large Collidable Object
Originally by: Mina Sebiestar
So op is full of it...yes no maybe.
it is not just that mael is insurable fleet pest cant offer anything for its price.
to put it simple anything that pest can do mael/phoon(regular or faction) can do better.
I think he's referring to pirate faction - navy faction is so irrelevant these days, many people forget they even exist when they talk about faction...
But then - flying pirate faction is more skill intense than navy faction and pirate LP are more tedious and risky to obtain than getting bazillions of empire faction LP running FW missions in a stealthbomber, AFKing L4s in highsec or just doing invention (Marauders), so the better performance (and higher price) is justified in my eyes.
^agreed piwates ships are bad ass working as intended. 
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Moghydin
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.08.01 05:14:00 -
[27]
Yes, was referring to pirate ships, especially to Angel ships. Faction ships as a whole are pretty fine. The fact that you see as many Angel ships as other pirate ships combined means that something is not balanced as it should be.
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Large Collidable Object
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Posted - 2011.08.01 05:29:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Moghydin
Yes, was referring to pirate ships, especially to Angel ships. Faction ships as a whole are pretty fine. The fact that you see as many Angel ships as other pirate ships combined means that something is not balanced as it should be.
Well - the Dramiel is getting nerfed as it was really out of line with any other frig-sized ship in the game and is killing frig pvp.
The Cynabal kind of obsoletes the Vagabond for a couple of isk more, but I don't really see an urgent need for nerfing it. Granted, the other pirate faction cruisers blow hard in comparison.
The Mach is undoubtedly the strongest turret ship outthere, but then, this is also related to projectiles being overpowered in general - also, losing one costs you more than losing a carrier...
The Bhaalgorn isn't much worse as a PvP ship, the Nightmare isn't much worse as a PvE ship as long as you're in the right corner of space and the vindicator is probably the only blaster-BS that would still be viable today and will probably be 'the next mach' after Blasters got fixed next year.
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Suitonia
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.08.01 09:35:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Makar Kravchenko
Angel ships. LOL. The glass cannons of eve. Scram, Webs, and Neuts kill dramiel, cynabal, and machariel. Each pirate faction ship is fine. But they are not meant to be win button. They each fit certain tactics. Fly them to the tactic and they are nice. Fly them the wrong way and they suck. Me thinks bro died too many times and is mad.
What is funny about this post is that you somehow don't understand that the Dramiel has almost assault frigate EHP while going 5.4km/s with dual prop, fantastic edge of scram range dps, fantastic kiting ability, both tracking bonus, falloff bonus and drones, while doing Taranis DPS to 8km and being able to GTFO out from anything that isn't an AB/Scram/Web fit AF, or Cruor/Daredevil (Dramiel can actually beat both 1v1 unless they have specific fits too). Thats the problem with the Dramiel. Its no where near a glass cannon sporting a Medium shield extender and damage control with faction frigate HP bonuses. The Dramiel really needs a nerf to either it's ability to fit dual prop with MSE (either by a PG nerf or slot layout change, mid to low) or its dps needs to be reduced somewhat (removing the drone bay or something). It is not ok for the Dramiel to be faster than every ship in the game, while doing Taranis DPS and having near to AF level EHP.
The Cynabal is probably the most balanced of the Angel ships. It offers a very tiny % more damage than the Vagabond, is twice as agile, can field medium drones for extra damage or can roll 2x groups of lights. Other than the stupidly high agility making it warp faster than a frigate, nothing really stands out. I actually prefer using a Vagabond over the Cynabal in small gangs where we have logistic support because the Vagabond gets HAC resists making the reps much better than the Cynabal. nerf the agility a bit on this dude but don't touch anything else it's fine.
On the Machariel, I don't really know what to think. Its an unique ship and it's really difficult to compare many things too it. I honestly think that Artillery on the Machariel is probably overpowered. It just has so much damage projection while being faster than LR HACS. It's literally like 3 LR Muninns rolled into one ship with better range, agility and speed, maybe a powergrid nerf could limit artillery fits a little bit. I think that AC Machariels are pretty fine though, maybe a slight agility nerf is in order, but otherwise i don't think the Mach is that bad.
But basically, even if you ignore the Mach/Cynabal, nerfing the Dramiel would literally make like 12-14 ships viable again.
---
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Twisted Girl
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.08.01 09:45:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Twisted Girl on 01/08/2011 09:46:07
Machariels is def. pretty hard to hold down. even with my 22km scram+30km web+neuts, they tend to drift out of range as long as they got 1 cycle off with their mwd because of their quick acceration/agility and mass. please nerf so I can kill them easyer.
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Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.08.01 10:46:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Moghydin
And yet again CCP fails in balancing things. From being totally useless pieces of junk they made faction ships into unbeatable pwnmobiles that make T2 virtually obsolete. Is there a chance of them being balanced correctly at some point?
Pirate faction ships are supposed to be better than T2. If they were only as good as T2, then they'd be obselete.
Malcanis' Law: Whenever a mechanics change is proposed on behalf of "new players", that change is always to the overwhelming advantage of richer, older players. |
Moghydin
Silver Snake Enterprise
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.08.01 10:51:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Moghydin
And yet again CCP fails in balancing things. From being totally useless pieces of junk they made faction ships into unbeatable pwnmobiles that make T2 virtually obsolete. Is there a chance of them being balanced correctly at some point?
Pirate faction ships are supposed to be better than T2. If they were only as good as T2, then they'd be obselete.
Why are they supposed to be better when it takes much more time to skill up for T2 ships than to pirate ships? It is absurdly evident with T2 bs's vs pirate bs's. In most cases pirate bs will wipe the floor with T2 bs, but it takes significantly lower time to train for the pirate version - racial battleship 5 pre req speaks for itself.
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Jowen Datloran
Caldari
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2011.08.01 11:36:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 01/08/2011 11:36:44
Originally by: Moghydin
Why are they supposed to be better when it takes much more time to skill up for T2 ships than to pirate ships? It is absurdly evident with T2 bs's vs pirate bs's. In most cases pirate bs will wipe the floor with T2 bs, but it takes significantly lower time to train for the pirate version - racial battleship 5 pre req speaks for itself.
All faction, deadspace and officer modules also have lower skill requirements than the tech 2 version; it is by design.
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Mr. Science & Trade Institute - EVE Lorebook - Mysteries of W-space |
Suitonia
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2011.08.01 11:38:00 -
[34]
I think T2 Battleships are bad in combat in general though. I think Pirate Faction Ships should be like the Ashimmu/Gila/Vigilant etc. Not necessarily solo "pwnmobiles", but provide unique concepts (like neuts+90% web, Caldari Shield Tanked Drone Boat etc.) and unique attributes.
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Large Collidable Object
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Posted - 2011.08.01 11:58:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Large Collidable Object on 01/08/2011 12:00:05
Originally by: Moghydin
Why are they supposed to be better when it takes much more time to skill up for T2 ships than to pirate ships? It is absurdly evident with T2 bs's vs pirate bs's. In most cases pirate bs will wipe the floor with T2 bs, but it takes significantly lower time to train for the pirate version - racial battleship 5 pre req speaks for itself.
Actually, if you want to fly them properly, especially pirate BS take longer to skill - you need two racial BS @ V - each has the respective frig and cruiser skills @ IV as a prerequisite and they generally tend to need a wider array of skills as their weapon systems/tanks are often out of line with one of the races needed.
Since Marauders are PVE ships, I think the Nightmare is a good example - you need Caldari and Amarr BS at V. If you're pure Caldari until then, you need to train up for large T2 lasers and gunnery support skills+may need additional work on your cap - if you're pure Amarr, you need to train up for an active shield tank.
Now if you go for a Golem as Caldari, you'll hit Marauders V sooner than Amarr BS V because despite of it being a longer skill than racial BS V, it has the sub-BS skills as a prereq.
You'll already have decent missile support skills and wont need to train up several millions in gunnery.
For an Amarr pilot, it's a little easier - train Caldari BS V and then an active shieldtank - still more effort than getting into a Paladin.
The fact you can sit in a ship doesn't mean you have the necessary skills. I'm not space-poor, but if I take an uninsurable 1 bill Mach (without fitting) into PvP, I won't do so until I have 99% of the skills associated with the ship or any module fitted on it @ V.
Anyway - the BS comparison is kind of bad since Marauders were introduced as pure PvE ships and thus, came pre-nerfed with weak sensor stregth, so they wouldn't be 'abused' as PvP ships.
BO have a very special role they fill rather poorly and have drawbacks to compenstae for their ~unique~ abilities.
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The R00k
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Posted - 2011.08.01 12:14:00 -
[36]
TBH not sure i see a validation to this. more to the point the only pirate faction ships better than t2 are the angel ones.
And that more to-do with auto cannons being the current win storm.
in fact i would say it's the exact opposite with many being much much worse than t2 or t3
Examples:
Ashimuu is never a better choice than Curse or legion.
Phantasm is never better than Zealot or legion.
Cruor is never seen.
Succubus was nerfed way to hell. And never used over Amarr T2 frigs.
Worms are rare.
Gila's are not used over ishtars.
Vindicators are good but why go over a navy mega or normal mega for a do or die blaster boat.
Bhaalgorns are way to expensive for survivability to be really used.
Rattlesnakes are once again a weird skill combo so few buy.
Nightmare's are mainly PVE ships and tbh I would use a paladin over it. (Strange they are so popular tbh)
So like i said that leaves really just angel ships. And why are they so popular? Because they allow a nano like play-style that allows for solo/small gangs to actually fight and win over the current blob/bubble mechanics.
That is " The R00K with two 00 not oo. to you sir |
Metlec
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Posted - 2011.08.01 12:21:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Metlec on 01/08/2011 12:23:42
Isn't the fact that they are slightly better than T2 offset by the cost? Cynabal is more expensive than a Vaga, Vigilant is way more expensive than a Deimos, etc.
Also, buying one doesn't automatically make you invincible. You still have to be able to set it up correctly for the combat situation you're going to be in and even then you have to fly it properly.
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Mors Magne
Astral Adventure
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Posted - 2011.08.01 13:47:00 -
[38]
My Machs are fantastic ships, but I wouldn't risk them in PvP because of the shear amount of grinding I'd have to do to get new ones.
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