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Damaa
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Posted - 2011.08.02 06:06:00 -
[1]
Controlling range seems the most important aspect for any basic PvP setup. And you do that by having fast and agile ships.
Also, Minmatar seems the most capable ships to GTFO and disengage when necessary, thanks to their speed and agility.
Minmatar agility/speed and decent DPS that makes them king of PvP?
I wonder if it worth training any other races/ships for PvP?
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Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
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Posted - 2011.08.02 06:12:00 -
[2]
Shhh, don't tell everyone or it will spread.
~~~
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Jude Lloyd
Heretic Army
B A N E
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Posted - 2011.08.02 06:13:00 -
[3]
Minmatar has ships for PVP?
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2011.08.02 06:40:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Damaa
..I wonder if it worth training any other races/ships for PvP?
At the moment, no. They pretty much have all bases covered and while you can pew with other races it is usually only after accepting a drawback that is not applicable to matari.
The capitals still kind of suck though, so I bet CCP considers them perfectly balanced 
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Damaa
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Posted - 2011.08.02 06:41:00 -
[5]
I know I am stating the obvious here.
Thanks for the sarcasm :)
What I wanted to say is what the developers were thinking?
Now we mostly see Minmatar ships (and some Amarr).
what is the point of having hundreds of ship types and millions of skills if they are mostly useless, and you only need to train one race.
It is kinda boring honestly.
You see Vaga after Vaga everywhere :)
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Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
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Posted - 2011.08.02 06:51:00 -
[6]
To answer in a slightly more helpful manner. Yes Minmatar are 'popular' (understatement) for those reasons.
Having said that, I fly a lot of Gallente and love them to bits. I fly all races but mostly Gallente stuff and when fit right I have a perfect advantage over certain Minmatar fits.
Minmatar are the most versatile and have the most GTFO ability but there are ships from all races that are perfectly viable. Look at how much use the Drake gets for example. It's one of the most commonly used ships in the game.
~~~
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stockin
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Posted - 2011.08.02 10:44:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Damaa
I know I am stating the obvious here.
Thanks for the sarcasm :)
What I wanted to say is what the developers were thinking?
Now we mostly see Minmatar ships (and some Amarr).
what is the point of having hundreds of ship types and millions of skills if they are mostly useless, and you only need to train one race.
It is kinda boring honestly.
You see Vaga after Vaga everywhere :)
Better than seeing drake after drake?
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.08.02 10:46:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Othran on 02/08/2011 10:47:48
Minmatar were crap for most of Eve's history. Since Dominion (and the TE2 buff) they're not. Give it time and some other race will be FoTM - like Amarr were for many years. Up until comparatively recently Minnie BSs were still considered garbage compared to other races but the artillery tweaks mean its nice for high lag situations.
Oh and as far as other ships go - Curse, Arazu, Falcon, Guardian spring instantly to mind. I'm sure there's a lot more than that which are viable.
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pussnheels
Amarr
Vintage heavy industries
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Posted - 2011.08.02 10:59:00 -
[9]
they good pvp ships indeed but not invincible, they have weak spots believe me
As mentioned before , some ships names most matar pilot fear , curse, falcon , hookbill and several more
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God knows everything but a true amarrian knows everything even better |
Noisrevbus
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Posted - 2011.08.02 12:20:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Noisrevbus on 02/08/2011 12:27:52
Originally by: Othran
Minmatar were crap for most of Eve's history. Since Dominion (and the TE2 buff) they're not.
Minmatar was perfectly viable for years before Dominion. Among the strongest contenders during the nano-era, among the strongest contenders in the early post-nano era (kite, LR hac) etc. The only thing they didn't have prior to recent day buffs was the strongest fleet-BS (yet, perfectly viable BS when it came to RRBS or smaller scale engagements with pre-change nano-Phoons and Pests). Now they contend for the top spots among fleet-BS as well.
They've not been "crap" for the past 5 years.
Welcome to EVE.
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Othran
Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.08.02 12:43:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Noisrevbus
LR hac
Uhuh and that's why we see the Muninn everywhere mmm? 
Thanks for the welcome. I started in May 2003 so you're a teeny bit late but never mind.
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Noisrevbus
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Posted - 2011.08.02 12:46:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Noisrevbus on 02/08/2011 12:48:46
Originally by: Othran
Originally by: Noisrevbus
LR hac
Uhuh and that's why we see the Muninn everywhere mmm?
You did when people still used LR- or SHAC on a regular basis. Considering that they are better today, if anyone would revisit the concept, i'm sure they'd be even more popular.
I did say "early post-nano era" however.
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Morium Blue
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
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Posted - 2011.08.02 15:41:00 -
[13]
It depends whether you mean solo or fleet. Doubtless Minnie ships are doing well atm - Lokis have long been a mainstay (even before projectile buff) and the Hurricane is a pretty awesome battlecruiser.
But there's nothing really unbalanced about them and I'll still take Abaddons, Navpocs, Navgeddons, etc. over their Minnie brothers.
Sabres are usually our LD of choice - and yet I've recently seen an Eris repped against a hundred man fleet, though partly thanks to Jack being uber. Scimi is great but then there are such things called Guardians, which fit right are still the flagship logistic.
Certainly Minnie stuff has gradually (and especially with projectile buff) started eating into the 'market share' of shield tanking. But if that means slightly less Drakes, it's no bad thing :)
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Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
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Posted - 2011.08.02 15:44:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Damaa
Minmatar agility/speed and decent DPS that makes them king of PvP?
Agility and speed is pretty much it. They also have the advantage of balanced T2 resists, which is nice.
Quote:
I wonder if it worth training any other races/ships for PvP?
Yes, pretty much all the combat recons are worth it.
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ColdCutz
Gallente
Pwny Nation
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Posted - 2011.08.02 17:57:00 -
[15]
Their weapons are also capless with selectable damage types. All three of them.
The low powergrid requirements of Autocannons and Launchers allow for neuts and buffer tanks to more easily fit, further reducing the vulnerability to cap warfare.
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RavenPaine
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Posted - 2011.08.02 18:00:00 -
[16]
I fly Minnie ships a lot. And I like the slot layout on most of them. BUT....when you fit them for nano you usually are giving up some tank. If you get caught proper, your probly going to die. And ifyou make it out to range, then you rarely see yourself as "Top Damage" dealer.
In that respect, I think they are pretty balanced.
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Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
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Posted - 2011.08.02 18:48:00 -
[17]
Originally by: RavenPaine
I fly Minnie ships a lot. And I like the slot layout on most of them. BUT....when you fit them for nano you usually are giving up some tank.
If you're talking about the loss of structure from the nano itself, I don't think that's particularly relevant. I'm sure there are some narrow escapes/deaths but if you're flying nano, you should be bailing long before the penalty becomes an actual concern.
Quote:
If you get caught proper, your probly going to die. And ifyou make it out to range, then you rarely see yourself as "Top Damage" dealer.
In that respect, I think they are pretty balanced.
Yeah, Caldari and Amarr have far better damage projection.
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Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
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Posted - 2011.08.02 19:14:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Jude Lloyd
Minmatar has ships for PVP?
This is also news to me. WTF have I been flying Drakes for.. I thought Caldari was the only PVP race...
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Cupdeez
Out of Order
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Posted - 2011.08.02 20:56:00 -
[19]
Min ships are fun for solo / fast moving gangs because you can run...
a lot people in this game like to have the option to run so they fly Min...
More people fly cald because a ****** could do it...
The big players fly Gal or Amar because the bigger the ship for these races the better it is.
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I likegirls
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.03 03:55:00 -
[20]
I thought caldari were the best at gtfo. Falcon alt ftw!
<3 |
Drykor
Minmatar
Aperture Harmonics
K162
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Posted - 2011.08.03 08:48:00 -
[21]
Don't know what op is talking about, I fly all races and I definitely don't always pick Minmatar for the job.
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Drykor - AHARM |
Lady Go Diveher
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Posted - 2011.08.03 13:35:00 -
[22]
Minnie ships are great at hit and run PVP, for getting in, dealing damage, and having that GTFO ticket which annoys so many.
However, tackle them properly, and they become a very sub-par brawler, with typically light EHP that can be further nullified by neuts.
They're pretty balanced in actual effectiveness, though definitely one of the more fun ways to fly ships in PVP.
Also? I just tricked you into reading my signature. |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
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Posted - 2011.08.03 16:16:00 -
[23]
Yeah - they have quite a few benefits:
- Capless guns with selectable damage types, awesome falloff, great tracking, lowest fitting requirements, awesome dps (ACs) or alpha (arties)
- Fastest, most maneuverable, most fexible ships with the lowest signature radius
Their Caps are not especially overpowered and the Hel flat out sucks, but that's about it.
Imho, CCP largely exaggarated when buffing projectiles along with changing TEs.
They used to have worse dps, but that was the the one drawback bringing them in line with the other races - now they're flat out overpowered.
I fly Minmatar perfectly fine, but it would be nice if I found a reason to fly anything else except for some niche roles...
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Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
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Posted - 2011.08.03 17:17:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Roosterton on 03/08/2011 17:19:36
Meh, people just think Minmatar is OP if they fly in large idiot drake fleets with no tackle. Put a web or two, or a short scram, on that Vaga and it will melt very, very horribly.
Basically, Minmatar boils down to this:
You are fast.
You have switchable damage types, but most long range setups will be doing exp/kin due to barrage.
Capless guns.
That comes at the drawback of needing extreme pilot micromanagement to avoid letting yourself get pinned down and killed, and when you're fighting at 20km+, you'll be doing <=50% of your potential damage. Really, in a small gang I'd much rather be flying with a Drake, or even a Harby, instead of a Hurricane, just because Drakes and Harbies will do almost full DPS while a 'Cane is forced to fight in falloff.
The only situations where Minmatar really excel are, as I said in the beginning of my post, situations where you're outnumbered and fighting people who don't know how to counter Minmatar. But it's definitely worth training other races as well.
Quote:
If you're talking about the loss of structure from the nano itself, I don't think that's particularly relevant. I'm sure there are some narrow escapes/deaths but if you're flying nano, you should be bailing long before the penalty becomes an actual concern.
I think he was referring to the general practice of nanofitting, instead of the nanos themselves. Compare the EHP of a nanocane to the EHP of a platecane and see what I mean. 
--------
Enemy corps raided into disbandment: Three.
Originally by: Tarminic
OH MY GOD WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?! |
Jones Bones
Heretic Army
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Posted - 2011.08.03 17:42:00 -
[25]
Minnie is great for small gang warfare. However, increase the size of the gang and individual pilot skill means less. It's much easier to spam lazorz or missiles and ignore range.
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Large Collidable Object
morons.
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Posted - 2011.08.03 18:41:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Jones Bones
Minnie is great for small gang warfare. However, increase the size of the gang and individual pilot skill means less. It's much easier to spam lazorz or missiles and ignore range.
Which is why Goons use alphamaels and the DRF fit arties on their baddons...
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Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
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Posted - 2011.08.03 19:50:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Mfume Apocal on 03/08/2011 19:54:36
Originally by: Roosterton
I think he was referring to the general practice of nanofitting, instead of the nanos themselves. Compare the EHP of a nanocane to the EHP of a platecane and see what I mean.
That nothing to do with nano; armor-tanking should always give you more buffer than shield tanking, hull bonuses excepted.
Originally by: Large Collidable Object
Which is why Goons use alphamaels and the DRF fit arties on their baddons...
He's right in general terms; damage projection is high on the list of desirable traits when you're talking anything past about 15 dudes, especially if you're looking to fight outnumbered.
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Large Collidable Object
morons.
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Posted - 2011.08.03 21:14:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Mfume Apocal
Originally by: Large Collidable Object
Which is why Goons use alphamaels and the DRF fit arties on their baddons...
He's right in general terms; damage projection is high on the list of desirable traits when you're talking anything past about 15 dudes, especially if you're looking to fight outnumbered.
I didn't intend to prove him wrong.
The point I was trying to make was that Minmatar are not just great at small-scale skirmishing and falling behind in larger scale ops, but also great at the latter due to the great damage-projection of arties.
Add to that the highest alpha of all turrets ingame, which is a highly desirable trait in todays logistics-heavy warfare and their other advantages and there you go.
But well - being in BL, you probably know that better than I do (*cough* Muninn *cough* ;))
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Spy 21
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Posted - 2011.08.03 21:25:00 -
[29]
I don't always play PVP.
But when I do, I fly Minmatar ships.
Fly thirsty my friend.
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SomeoneStrange
Total Grief
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Posted - 2011.08.03 23:23:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Spy 21
I don't always play PVP.
But when I do, I fly Minmatar ships.
Fly thirsty my friend.
This made the entire thread worth reading.
Total Grief
"You mad Bro?"
(....local....)
"Oh yes, I think he's mad." |
Fredfredbug4
Gallente
Kings of Kill
EVE Animal Control
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Posted - 2011.08.04 01:21:00 -
[31]
Gallente and Minmatar tend to shine in smaller groups where your position on the battlefield is key. Minmatar skirmishing with their speed to hopefully web the targets so the Gallente ships can come up close and cause commotion with drones and blasters.
Caldari and Amarr do well in larger battles where distance and range isn't really a big deal as Missles don't have optimals and Amarr can insta switch ammo as necessary. They also have the tanking abilities to handle lots of DPS.
In short, cross train as necessary. Decide what you want to do in EVE. Personally, I crosstrained to all the races, not all equally as my Gallente and Caldari skills are much better than my Minmatar and Amarr skills. This way I a can adapt to any nerfs, and boost by CCP as well as in game stuff.
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Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
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Posted - 2011.08.04 02:05:00 -
[32]
NO! GALLENTE DOMINATES PVP BLASTERS DO THE MOST DPS |
Aznwithbeard
Minmatar
OMGROFLSTOMP
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Posted - 2011.08.04 03:44:00 -
[33]
I originally started training minmatar, as my toon is a minmatar toon and well, yea. However, gallente hulls and caldari missiles/tank/jamzors/etc are quite nice as well.
the ONLY ships where youre you can gtfo easily and still commit to a fight with the minni ships are vaga + cyna + nano cane tbh. Try to gtfo in a armor cane being web/scrammed by a binger (ok maybe not a binger, theyre terrible) myrmidon before you die isnt as easy as you people make it seem.
Nano drake = tank + range
Shield binger actually ****s shield cane.
etc. etc.
TLDR Quit being *****es, you can make any ship (pretty much) good at pvp, even if its just a niche.
"something quirky here" |
Trixie Smithers
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Posted - 2011.08.04 15:04:00 -
[34]
All of the races are great.
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tofucake prime
The Hatchery
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Posted - 2011.08.04 15:33:00 -
[35]
Best races are Minmatar and Drake.
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TheMahdi
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Posted - 2011.08.04 16:14:00 -
[36]
Depending on the ship class and the intended roles and fleet compositions.
I'd have to say Amarr and Minmatar are pretty well matched for PvP usefulness.
But then again Drake and Tengu fleets are way more common these days, so what's so bad with Caldari then? The Tengu is the most OP ship in the game even for PvP.
Minmatar definetly do take the cake for nano and sniper HACs, but armor HAC goes to the Zealot. Granted, Angels ships are OP as **** still.
It's really a mixed bag, you can't say 1 race is superior at everything.
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Name Family Name
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Posted - 2011.08.04 17:17:00 -
[37]
Originally by: TheMahdi
armor HAC goes to the Zealot.
People still use AHAC gangs?
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TheMahdi
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Posted - 2011.08.04 17:44:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Name Family Name
Originally by: TheMahdi
armor HAC goes to the Zealot.
People still use AHAC gangs?
Sure do.
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Sun Zue
Short Bus Pole Dancers
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Posted - 2011.08.04 19:48:00 -
[39]
The way I see it all ships fit into there role nicely. All the races also have some wiggle room to get more from their ships as well. Ill use BC's as an example as I fly this ship size the most.
Amarr: Prophecy: Good tank, can be fitted w/ ether AC's or Pulse as it gets no turret damage bonus. lower cost then the Harbinger. Down side it does poor DPS and is pretty slow for its class.
Harbinger: Great DPS, nice size drone bay, fits a solid Armour tank, harder to jam then most in its class, and laser crystal damage type change is instant instead of 10 sec's. Down side's are, to slow to properly be used in nano fleets, weapons NEED cap to work, slow do to being mainly Armour.
Gallente:Brutix: Wicked close range DPS, good armor tank, nice size drone bay, not a complete lead-butt. Down side's are, DPS is CLOSE range and must ships can kite outside that range, slow in armor form, little to no tank in gank form, guns need cap.
Myrmidon: Good dps, drone boat so it leaves the high slots open to what you want in them. Active tank bonus helps in solo fights, well rounded and not to slow. Down sides are, not the greatest DPS, your tank may need lots of cap, drones can die and you will lose most if not all your DPS.
Minmatar: Cyclone: Fit right good DPS, Nice tank with active shield tank bonus, Not too small drone bay. Quicker on the battlefield then most BC's. Down side's are, very skill intensive need drone, missile and projectile skills along with many others, shallow tank, tank properly fit will need cap. small Powergrid
Hurricane: Great DPS, can fit both nano shield tank and armor tank and use both well (shield very well do to its speed), like cyclone weapons need zero cap, w/ passive armor fit req's no cap to fight. Fit with arty's its alpha is the highest of all the BC's. Down side's are, Shield fits must keep range or be webbed/scrammed and killed. armor tank is not as good as the harbinger or brutix. like the Cyclone is easy to jam(most minmatar stuff is). Skill intensive as well to make up for poor powergrid and cap.
Caldari: Ferox: It sux's all around and is only fun to fly when your bored, someone else can defend it but with the 7 other BC's to go for. This is not the one.
Drake: Probably the best Fleet BC there is, Solid shield tank with good speed (better when double nano'd) Good range with heavy's and good dps with HAM's. Weapons need no cap to fire, and is easy to train up for. Works well with logi do to the solid buffer tank and resists. When armor fit (don't yell at me it wasn't my idea) frees the mid slots and turns it into a cheap EWAR utility boat. Down side's are a small drone bay, missiles take time to it the target, the hardeners req cap to work. will have to sacrifice some tank to add tackle.
This is just work i can throw off the top of my head atm, the list is far from complete but it should give some idea as to the roles the ships have. Its balanced in game, its the skill of the polits that is not. The only way to fix that is to get better.
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VaL Iscariot
Caldari
The Concilium Enterprises
Spectrum Alliance
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Posted - 2011.08.05 03:18:00 -
[40]
a short answer to OP's post is: No.
Simply put, the damage projection of Minmitar weapons is horrid and only reaches its full potential when in near blaster range.
Are Minmitar ships faster? Yes.
Can they always GTFO? No.
Does a pulse laser Harbi deal more damage at 20 km vs a 425mm auto cannon cane? Yes.
Is the Vaga a shining example of a insta-win Minmitar ship? Depends on who's flying it. A drake can drop one easy, if it gets the claws into it.
I've faced off against people with the exact same ship/fitting and won. I've also been on the flip side of that card. I've ROFLSTOMPED cane's in a Harbinger. I've been ROFLSTOMPED by canes flying a Harbinger.
What it really boils down to is: It's not the ship, its the pilot.
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Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
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Posted - 2011.08.05 10:34:00 -
[41]
The biggest problem with most people's perception of Minmatar, is EFT.
They stick in their cane fit. They look at the stats. "OMG! 492 dps and 3.5+23 with barrage!!"
What that actually says, is that you'll be doing about 200-250dps applied DPS, due to falloff and tracking losses.
Your typical fleet drake will do 400+ out to 70+km.
Your typical Harbinger will do 450-or-so with a 25km optimal.
It's not all as simple as that, but people tend to forget that fighting in falloff whilst claiming "EPIC range control!" will forever be a game of diminishing returns.
-------
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Taron Hakard
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Posted - 2011.08.05 11:33:00 -
[42]
Minmatar is the best PvP race, if you'd have to choose one. But you don't have to, so who cares. This game maybe had a balancing team in 2004 and maybe then a thread like this wouldn't be a complete waste of time.
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Zyress
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Posted - 2011.08.05 20:05:00 -
[43]
Originally by: RavenPaine
I fly Minnie ships a lot. And I like the slot layout on most of them. BUT....when you fit them for nano you usually are giving up some tank. If you get caught proper, your probly going to die. And ifyou make it out to range, then you rarely see yourself as "Top Damage" dealer.
In that respect, I think they are pretty balanced.
Well if you take the fastest most agile hulls in the game and then Nano them I should hope you would have to sacrifice something. You got the fastest ships in the game screw nanoing them put some dps mods in those lows.
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Zyress
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Posted - 2011.08.05 20:10:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
The biggest problem with most people's perception of Minmatar, is EFT.
They stick in their cane fit. They look at the stats. "OMG! 492 dps and 3.5+23 with barrage!!"
What that actually says, is that you'll be doing about 200-250dps applied DPS, due to falloff and tracking losses.
Your typical fleet drake will do 400+ out to 70+km.
Your typical Harbinger will do 450-or-so with a 25km optimal.
It's not all as simple as that, but people tend to forget that fighting in falloff whilst claiming "EPIC range control!" will forever be a game of diminishing returns.
Of course of that 400+ dps the Drake can do on eft half will be lost due to bloated exposive radius, more will be lost due to slow explosive velocity, and thats before you get to their resistances, turrets aren't the only weapon system that has exaggereated DPS on EFT
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Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
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Posted - 2011.08.05 21:24:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Zyress
...turrets aren't the only weapon system that has exaggereated DPS on EFT
Of course not. That doesn't mean that HMLs don't have the best damage projection of any weapon system in the game.
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Korg Leaf
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
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Posted - 2011.08.05 21:33:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Zyress
Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
The biggest problem with most people's perception of Minmatar, is EFT.
They stick in their cane fit. They look at the stats. "OMG! 492 dps and 3.5+23 with barrage!!"
What that actually says, is that you'll be doing about 200-250dps applied DPS, due to falloff and tracking losses.
Your typical fleet drake will do 400+ out to 70+km.
Your typical Harbinger will do 450-or-so with a 25km optimal.
It's not all as simple as that, but people tend to forget that fighting in falloff whilst claiming "EPIC range control!" will forever be a game of diminishing returns.
Of course of that 400+ dps the Drake can do on eft half will be lost due to bloated exposive radius, more will be lost due to slow explosive velocity, and thats before you get to their resistances, turrets aren't the only weapon system that has exaggereated DPS on EFT
With heavy missiles pretty much anything above cruiser will have pretty much full damage applied to it. You can't say that about projectiles, outside of 17km your damage will be quite a bit lower regardless of what you shoot.
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Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! |
Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
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Posted - 2011.08.05 21:44:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Mfume Apocal on 05/08/2011 21:44:18
Originally by: Korg Leaf
With heavy missiles pretty much anything above cruiser will have pretty much full damage applied to it. You can't say that about projectiles, outside of 17km your damage will be quite a bit lower regardless of what you shoot.
Yeah, I think a lot of dudes look at baseline stats and forget about skills like Guided Missile Precision shrinking the envelope for speed/sig-tanking HMLs.
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Korg Leaf
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
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Posted - 2011.08.05 22:09:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Mfume Apocal
Edited by: Mfume Apocal on 05/08/2011 21:44:18
Originally by: Korg Leaf
With heavy missiles pretty much anything above cruiser will have pretty much full damage applied to it. You can't say that about projectiles, outside of 17km your damage will be quite a bit lower regardless of what you shoot.
Yeah, I think a lot of dudes look at baseline stats and forget about skills like Guided Missile Precision shrinking the envelope for speed/sig-tanking HMLs.
Yeah alot of people seem to forget both laser and missiles, at least on a cruiser level, have better damage projection than projectiles. Heavy Pulse Harbinger and a Heavy Missile Drake both get more DPS at range than an AC Cane
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Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! |
Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Warped Aggression
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Posted - 2011.08.05 22:26:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Taram Caldar on 05/08/2011 22:31:55
In all honesty it really depends what type of PVP you are doing. Though minmatar are, by far, the best skirmishers. Stating that any one race is 'the best at pvp' is a very inaccurate and short-sighted statement.
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Korg Leaf
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors
0ccupational Hazzard
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Posted - 2011.08.05 22:32:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Taram Caldar
In all honesty it really depends what type of PVP you are doing. Though minmatar are, by far, the best skirmishers.
That isn't because of damage thats because they can get away with having little balls.
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Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! |
Taram Caldar
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
Warped Aggression
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Posted - 2011.08.05 23:58:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Korg Leaf
Originally by: Taram Caldar
In all honesty it really depends what type of PVP you are doing. Though minmatar are, by far, the best skirmishers.
That isn't because of damage thats because they can get away with having little balls.
Skirmish has nothing to do with damage (or balls for that matter). Skirmish warfare is, by definition, harassment etc. It's not about doing tons of dmg it's about getting in, causing what damage you can, and getting out.
As opposed to siege warfare or conquering space where you're going in to slug it out and knock over the walls and take over the area. Very different types of fighting.
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Dorian Tormak
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Posted - 2011.08.06 03:02:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Trixie Smithers
All of the races are great.
This. Anyone who says otherwise is a conformist PIECE OF ****E NOOB
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Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.08.07 15:14:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Trixie Smithers
All of the races are great.
Yep, and some races are greater than others - IE Winmatar.
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AdamusMaximus
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Posted - 2011.08.07 22:49:00 -
[54]
i pvp A LOT and i mean rly i spend 90% of my online time pvping but in my opinion winmatar even tho good arent just the best ships.
ill let u comment on this but in my opinion >
its not about the race its about how good you are at using a certain race and how smart u are when goin into an engagement.
as an example u could see someone kiting in a nanodrake or sum idiot trying to go under tracking in one....with the sig a drake has that really aint happening much so it all comes down to experience and not the ship.
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Hidden Snake
Caldari
Inglorious-Basterds
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Posted - 2011.08.08 12:18:00 -
[55]
well u can have good skirmishers from any race (nanodrakes, nanozealots etc.).
It is not the ships, but pilots (and FCs) who win the fights - really.
And yeah i do some pvp time to time .... |
Duchess Starbuckington
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Posted - 2011.08.08 12:21:00 -
[56]
How many sub-cap ship categories can you think of where Minmatar aren't best or second best in their class?
Recons perhaps, and umm... ok let's see
+ Best T1 frigate.
+ Best assault frigates (tied with Gallente).
+ Best tackler inty.
- Sub-par combat inty. Still not the worst though.
- Sub-par EAF (lol).
+ Best destroyer.
+ Best interdictor.
+ Best T1 combat cruiser.
# Worst T1 EWAR cruiser.
~ Hard to judge the HACs, they all have different purposes, but the vaga and Muninn are amazing.
- So-so recons. Perfectly usable but overshadowed by Caldari and Amarr.
~ Excellent HIC, but they're all pretty even really.
- Good T3 cruiser, not the best but by no means worst.
+ One of the most useful and popular logistics in the game.
+ Best battlecruiser (Hurricane tied with Drake. Worth mentioning that the Cyclone is great.)
+ Best field command ship.
~ Fleet command ship is a fleet command ship. Certainly not the worst, by far.
+ Superb battleship lineup, all of which sees use and the Maelstrom in particular is a staple of fleet warfare.
+ Excellent marauder.
+ The best pirate faction ships in the game, by far.
So looking over this - Minmatar are either the best or close to it in just about every category. I may have missed some, but no other race is this well rounded. The few ships they have that can really be called "gimped" have plenty of alternatives that are quite the opposite. |
Tai Meijer
Caldari
Malkutha
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Posted - 2011.08.08 12:34:00 -
[57]
I know everyone says minmatar require lots of Skillpoints, but having looked at the fits, you can sorta skimp on a few things can't you? Eliminate tanking skills by fitting a shield buffer tank, don't need to max out cap skills because your weapons don't use any, so surely it would be easier for you to fit into a gang, but with a little less damage, then if you were training amarr for example, with the cap etc...
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Bateryjka
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Posted - 2011.08.08 13:32:00 -
[58]
Race or ships don't matter, evry pvp in eve is about who have more friends ready. And mattar advantage is that their short range weapons do good damage combined with speed they can stay at range letting them GTFO if needed.
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Sphit Ker
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.08.08 14:13:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Taram Caldar
Edited by: Taram Caldar on 05/08/2011 22:31:55
In all honesty it really depends what type of PVP you are doing. Though minmatar are, by far, the best skirmishers. Stating that any one race is 'the best at pvp' is a very inaccurate and short-sighted statement.
Emphasis mine.
In other words, to generalize is to be wrong. Always.
The following statement is not my signature.
The preceding statement is my signature. |
Zyress
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Posted - 2011.08.10 21:00:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Mfume Apocal
Edited by: Mfume Apocal on 05/08/2011 21:39:20
Edited by: Mfume Apocal on 05/08/2011 21:37:42
Originally by: Zyress
...turrets aren't the only weapon system that has exaggereated DPS on EFT
Of course not. That doesn't mean that HMLs don't have the best damage projection of any weapon system in the game. Most Minmatar medium ships using autocannons have rather poor projection past scram/web range, with the exception of the Vaga.
And then we get into the question of usable range, how often in Pvp are you operating outside of Long Point Range?
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Zyress
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Posted - 2011.08.10 21:10:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Korg Leaf
Originally by: Mfume Apocal
Edited by: Mfume Apocal on 05/08/2011 21:44:18
Originally by: Korg Leaf
With heavy missiles pretty much anything above cruiser will have pretty much full damage applied to it. You can't say that about projectiles, outside of 17km your damage will be quite a bit lower regardless of what you shoot.
Yeah, I think a lot of dudes look at baseline stats and forget about skills like Guided Missile Precision shrinking the envelope for speed/sig-tanking HMLs.
Yeah alot of people seem to forget both laser and missiles, at least on a cruiser level, have better damage projection than projectiles. Heavy Pulse Harbinger and a Heavy Missile Drake both get more DPS at range than an AC Cane
If you want to compare a AC Cane to a Drake be fair, compare it to a Heavy Assault Drake, which with maxed out skills can get 20 Km of range without adding implants or rigs to increase range and thats more like 15 km if the target is moving at all. If you want to compare a Cane to a HM Drake then lets talk about an Arty Cane.
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Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
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Posted - 2011.08.11 03:31:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Zyress
If you want to compare a AC Cane to a Drake be fair, compare it to a Heavy Assault Drake, which with maxed out skills can get 20 Km of range without adding implants or rigs to increase range and thats more like 15 km if the target is moving at all. If you want to compare a Cane to a HM Drake then lets talk about an Arty Cane.
Why? It's not like just because he fits ACs I have to fit HAMs. And even if we're talking arty canes, HMLs still have an advantage in projected DPS.
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Zyress
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Posted - 2011.08.11 03:48:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Zyress on 11/08/2011 03:51:25
Originally by: Mfume Apocal
Originally by: Zyress
If you want to compare a AC Cane to a Drake be fair, compare it to a Heavy Assault Drake, which with maxed out skills can get 20 Km of range without adding implants or rigs to increase range and thats more like 15 km if the target is moving at all. If you want to compare a Cane to a HM Drake then lets talk about an Arty Cane.
Why? It's not like just because he fits ACs I have to fit HAMs. And even if we're talking arty canes, HMLs still have an advantage in projected DPS.
You are comparing a long range weapon system to a short range weapon system and complaining about a range advantage, thats why, and an Arty Cane with 720's and a couple Tracking Enhancers can hit out further than the 70 km a drake cane hit a still target at with max skills and no rigs or implants to boost range its got an optimal of 19 and another 36 of fall off and thats just with faction or standard ammo, put in Trmor and its optimal goes out to 70 with another 36 of falloff
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TaluxA
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Posted - 2011.08.11 04:32:00 -
[64]
Not that arty canes are bad or anything but they have a poor tank, no room for medium neuts, bad tracking and similar dps to a hml drake. The very high alpha makes up for it in groups but a hml drake is stronger for very small gangs.
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Mfume Apocal
Minmatar
Origin.
Black Legion.
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Posted - 2011.08.11 09:53:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Zyress
You are comparing a long range weapon system to a short range weapon system and complaining about a range advantage, thats why
I never said anything about range. I said projected DPS. That means the ability to actually hit stuff, like a close-orbiting frig. Arties, in practice, lose a big chunk of their dps to tracking and falloff.
Quote:
and an Arty Cane with 720's and a couple Tracking Enhancers can hit out further than the 70 km a drake cane hit a still target at with max skills and no rigs or implants to boost range its got an optimal of 19 and another 36 of fall off and thats just with faction or standard ammo, put in Trmor and its optimal goes out to 70 with another 36 of falloff
Tremor with 2 gyros in the lows is still outdamaged (234 DPS/2170 alpha vs 396/2762) by a two BCS Drake firing CN Scourge. Faction ammo within it's 19km optimal is only marginally higher DPS than Scourge Fury. Range isn't an issue since both arty and HMLs can hit beyond their max lock range on a BC.
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Dub Step
Minmatar
Death To Everyone But Us
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Posted - 2011.08.11 09:58:00 -
[66]
lol
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kpppt
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Posted - 2011.08.11 10:13:00 -
[67]
Originally by: tofucake prime
Best races are Minmatar and Drake.
Brilliant
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xSHOCKWAVEx
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Posted - 2011.08.14 11:35:00 -
[68]
Yes minmatar wins at everything now tell my why everyones flying archons and not nidghoggurs? thanks and goodnight
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